Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Well, whatever spin you want to put on it, Alan's point that the battery cables should be protected close to the batteries, before they run through the boat and pose a fire hazard, is a good one.
---In amelyachtowners@..., <mike.k.johnson@...> wrote :
Agree entirely with Bill R’s comments.
We have never found any defect with Henri Amel’s basic concept or workmanship on the SM2K.
The only problems we have faced is where others have attempted ‘fixes’ to the original specifications.
Very best wishes
Mike & Peta
On 17 Oct 2017, at 17:11, 'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
- Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
cruising - Grenada
never say that "I think Bill K's point is that he thinks Capt. Henri's
original engineering was poorly done and left an unsafe condition with
unprotected long wire runs."
I would not
say anything like that for numerous reasons. I think you know why.
Amel is not here to defend his decisions made many years ago, I will remind
everyone that at the time these decisions were made they very likely conformed
100% with the regulations in force in Europe and conformed with the thinking at
the time. Let's compare Henri Amel's engineering decisions to General Motors at
the same time:
Disintegrating plastic bumper parts
engines with 100% failure
to Diesel conversions with almost 100% failure
of plasticides in paint which caused paint to fade in 6 years
transmission parts which caused a new industry to emerge to repair
& Corvair (one name says it all)
headliners which fell in 5 years
coated plastic which lasted about 2 years
improve on yesterday's technology? Certainly!
Can one not
understand decisions made yesterday? Absolutely!
of us criticize Henri Amel? Never!
this is my sermon for the month. I hope that you enjoyed it.
On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 8:39 AM, sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
Yes, that's why I thought Alan's
adding the Blue Sea fuses at the batteries sounded wise. Btw, in my house the
distribution panel is smack in the middle of the house which reduces the total
amount of wiring. It does, of course, have a main service breaker at the
external drop wire, analogous to Alan's Blue Sea fuse. Then there are separate
fused disconnects adjacent to heavy loads like the A/C and hot water heater in
addition to breakers for those at the distribution panel.
I think Bill K's point is that he
thinks Capt. Henri's original engineering was poorly done and left an unsafe
condition with unprotected long wire runs. Alan seems to have a good
solution. And, while the new Amel centralized panel would meet Bill K's
criterion, it is (likely) not fused close to the batteries, leaving the same
risk of chafe and shorting in either the wires going to the panel or the wires
going to the engine & generator starting motors.
I do suspect that the industry will
continue to modernize with Distributed electric systems and have not overlooked
the risk of shorting in the long runs, although I haven't looked into it enough
to know exactly how it is addressed.
<sailw32@...> wrote :
Craig , Your original post seemed
to support locating breakers far from the power source , however this post
seems to acknowledge the protection offered by locating breakers as close as
possible to the battery bank. You even pointed to boat that burned up cables as
a result of a short . Now I must be missing something . When I build a house ,
I have 220v/ 200 amps coming through a wall , I locate the distribution
panel as close as possible to where it comes thru the wall. The ele ctric
immediately goes thru appropriate size breakers and passes thru appropriate
sized wiring on to outlets , pumps ,etc . In the event of a short
there is little chance of the wire being overloaded . You do not use 14g wire
with a 20 amp breaker ! In a house you would not run a 220v line to a laundry
room and place the breaker on the wall behind the dryer. I have never
understood the difference between protecting a boat vs. a house . But , maybe I
am missing something, it would not be the first time.
From: sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Mon, Oct 16, 2017 9:34 am
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Distributed vs.
Conventional Electrical Systems
That seems an excellent idea. I
remember that in 2001 I totally redid SM Miss Lindy's wiring (don't recall the
hull number) after it completely burned out for the third time. All the heavy
cables in the engine room, from battery to starter to generator to main house
feeds had melted solid. As I finished up I still had low volts from the engine
to the battery. Traced it to the starting cables having chaffed about 12
inches down inside the PVC pipe from the battery to the engine (that was
supposedly there to prevent chafe). Your solution would have prevented much
heartache and expense.
Will be interested in Bill K's
bounce. Perhaps the modern distributed systems do incorporate that.
<divanz620@...> wrote :
BUT that's exactly what we have
on our SMs....th e anchor windlass, the genoa furler etc have the breakers at
the "other end" of the cables that run from the house bank...and...on
the standard setup, there are NO FUSES near the battery connections.
I've put large Blue Sea fuses in
the battery compartment on each of my 3 banks of 4 6V series batteries to try
to address these issues.
I think you (and Amel in the
"old days") are simply missing the point of circuit breakers.
They are most certainly NOT there to protect the anchor washdown pump, or t he
thruster motor, or any other piece of equipment. There is nothing a
circuit breaker can do to "protect" the pump motor, or other
device: If it shorts, it has already died! If, in normal operation, it
draws too much current for the wiring to support, then the wiring is
Circuit breakers are there to
protect the WIRING and prevent the catastrophic results that can occur if a
short occurs ANYWHERE that overloads the wiring. This can occur from many
faults, none of them likely, but all with disastrous consequences. Wire
chafe is probably the most common cause on boats, but others happen. I'd guess
loose connections are a close second.
Having a breaker at the far end
of the wire, away from the battery, completely misses the point of why it is
there in the first place. In my opinion, if you have a circuit breaker at the
point of use of the power, you might as well just replace it with a switch--it
is essentially useless.
When I ran a service department
for a large charter company, one of the annual safety meetings I ran for for my
staff was to dead short circuit a 12 volt battery through 14 gauge wire.
Watching solid copper wire burst into flame and literally explode was a
sobering experience for people who could easily get into the habit of thinking
"its only 12 volts." It really made the point about why fuses and
circuit breakers were essential.
There is nothing at all wrong
with distributed CONTROL of an electrical system. That is just fancy
electronics. But... you can not "distribute" protection of the
wiring. I have never heard a good reason to run long lengths of un-fused
wiring on a boat--or anywhere else. It is just dangerous--and for
absolutely no benefit. Dangerous overloads rarely occur because of
equipment problems. They occur because of wiring faults. Do they
happen often? No, not at all. But when they do, it is truly
C-zone, Ocotplex, etc, a re NOT
wiring protection systems. They are not "circuit
breakers". They are CONTROL systems. Very different animals.
I have seen several boat fires
at much closer quarters than I ever hope to repeat, and most of them were electrical
in origin, all from things that shouldn't have happened--but did.
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD
<sangaris@...> wrote :
I'd always thought Amel was
ahead of the curve with its Distributed Electrical System. That seems to be the
direction the industry is going, now with solid state circuit breakers
controlled through the NMEA2000 data network. Eliminates the large industrial
style circuit breaker panels of yore and adds great flexibility. Check out
CAPI2, C-Zone, Octoplex, etc. Seems Amel is going backwards technologically if
they're centralizing. Let's see, your anchor washdown pump shorts and rather
than it tripping an adjacent breaker it's got to overload a 15 meter long cable
run back to the central circuit breaker panel. To say nothing of the excess
wiring to give all equipment a "home run". Must be missing something
in this discussion.
Cheers, Craig SN68 Sangaris