Date   

Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

karkauai
 

Thanks Eric.
You're right, the group 31's are about an inch longer and 3/4" taller than the group 27's. I couldn't fit 12 of those in my crib, so they must have made it bigger somehow in later model SMs. I wonder where they found the extra space?

Kent
On Feb 25, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Sailorman <kimberlite@optonline.net> wrote:

Kent,

Why don't you drop Joel Potter a note. I am sure he knows someone that can
help you.

I believe the group 31 batteries are a bit larger than the group 27. When it
came time to replace them I called Interstate batteries directly, they gave
me the name of the regional distributor. Being that I needed 13 batteries he
gave me the dealers price of about $80- each. They delivered them to the
dock in NY and picked up the old ones. I used interstate as the battery
terminals and physical size were exactly the same as the original Amel
batteries (Dolphin)?

I have 30 and 100 amp dolphin chargers on board. My 30 amp went bad and
cooked my battery bank.; I sent it to Dolphin in France they only charged me

$150- to repair it.

My inverter is mounted high on the left side of the wet locker and is 110
volts, I just use it for the few 110 volt things I have on board. In
retrospect, I should have bought a 220 volt unit. It is a sine wave 2200
watt xantrex unit.

I also have a 175 amp alternator on my main engine ( yanmar)

Fair Winds

Eric

Amel Super Maramu #376 Kimberlite

_____

From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kent Robertson
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:24 AM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

Steve, that's a great explanation of our systems. I was looking at a 2500 W
inverter because that's what my old Heart Interface charger/inverter had. I
was looking at 100A charger on advice of others who've said it reduces their
charge times. The old one was 65A. My usage is similar to yours, about 130
AH per day. My 420 AH battery bank would be pretty low if I tried to charge
only once a day, but if I had a larger bank I could probably do it. The
batteries I have are group 27 and a little larger than the group 31's, I
think.
What kind of stand-alone inverter do you have? The Magnum charger is the one
closest to the 100A / 2500W inverter that I could find. If I could find a
2500W stand alone inverter, that's what I'd do. Would I be able to use the
same wiring that I have from the old Heart Interface? I'd need a 220 input
for the charger, a 24v output from the charger (both from the old wiring), a
24V input to the inverter (which I could take from the 24V studs on the
foreword bulkhead in the engine room) and use the 220V output cables from
the old Heart. Am I missing something here? The old Heart had a 65 A
charger, so maybe larger wires to the battery bank if I got a 100A charger?
I guess if I got another 65 A charger I could run that one and the Charles
60A together for 125A during the bulk charge.

It looks like I should probably find a good electrician to help me with
this, but I hate paying someone for hours of figuring out how Amels are
wired, and I've not had much luck finding anyone in Brunswick who seems to
know anything about European wiring. Has anyone had a good experience with
an electrician from Jacksonville or Savannah?
Thanks again for all your thoughts and help.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy

_____

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Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

karkauai
 

I like the way you are thinking about this, Steve.  You have a great way of making it seem simpler again.  I'll let you know what I end up doing.
Kent


________________________________
From: Steve Constantine <svsummerlove@yahoo.com>
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

 
Hi Kent,

There's no question a 100A charger or two will reduce the charge times.  The way I see it though, is if I'm running the genset for 1.5 hours anyway to do other things, what have I gained by shortening the charge time?  For example, if I'm drawing 30A from the genset, I'll charge the batteries in half an hour, but I won't be able to run anything else.  I'd then have to continue to run it for another hour after the batteries are charged to cook dinner in the microwave, wash the dishes, and run the water heater for my shower.

When I decided to buy an Amel, a lot of it had to do with buying into the Amel philosophy.  Unlike other boat brands and models that last a few years on the market, this one had been designed on a world cruise, and then refined and improved for 15 years after that.  They'd pretty much got it figured out.  I really liked their on-board power management system.  It has a 7KW genset big enough to support all the appliances for comfortable living aboard, an enormous battery bank, and an inverter wired for times when the genset doesn't make sense.  Then they added a fuel tank big enough to support it all over a long ocean passage.  If the genset fails, there's the main engine as back-up.  Why change or complicate it?  

A well-designed battery plant starts with your consumption requirements (AH per day), and backs into the total AH capacity of the batteries and charger size that's required to achieve them; not by figuring how many amp hours can be fit into the battery box, then deciding how many chargers are required to keep them lit.  Your requirement is the same as mine... 130AH (and I think a lot of other SMs as well).  With 420AH in your batteries, that's about 31% of your capacity in a 24 hour period.  To replenish 130AH on a single daily charge, you'd have to run your 60A and 65A chargers for approximately 1.5 hours, assuming you let the batteries discharge to 50% before you start to charge them, and take them up to 81%. 

Regarding using the existing wiring for the new charger/inverter, you're probably OK re-using the 220VAC output cables from the inverter, and the 220VAC input and 24VDC output cables to the charger as long as you don't go any bigger than 65A.  If you go with a 100A charger, you'll probably need larger output cables.  However, for the 24VDC inverter input it's crucial to have the cables sized large enough to prevent voltage drop.  You can't just pick up 24V from any convenient terminal unless it's also being fed by large enough cables itself.  Where is your Heart I/F currently mounted (engine room, nav station)?  The best installation is to run a dedicated pair of cables (pos and neg) directly to the inverter input from the main battery switches using crimp connectors installed with the CORRECT crimping tool.  You should also have a correctly sized fuse (not a breaker) mounted as close to the battery end as possible on the + cable.  The fuse is
to protect the wiring, and NOT the inverter.  On a 4KW inverter, that's probably in the region of a 300A fuse.  If you've ever seen a direct short of 24V @ 300A to ground, you'll understand why it's there.

Regarding running two chargers in parallel.  It's not easy to get multiple charging devices to load share over the entire charge cycle, unless they were designed for it.  Like gensets, they run more efficiently when they are cranking out close to their capacities.  They will both pour the coals to the batteries at the start of the charge when the batteries are low, but as the current is reduced, they'll probably start to run less efficiently than a single charger.  You could maybe monitor the charge and experiment with turning one off at different points until you find the right balance.

I hear you loud and clear on your reluctance to pay an electrician to learn about Amel wiring.  I've found the best way is to figure out everything I can, then pay him to confirm what I think I now know.  That said, there's a case to be made for his expertise in safe electrical procedures and the specialized tools you won't have to buy or rent.  I think the best compromise is to know exactly what you want him to install, have all the obstacles out of his way and all the parts ready to go before he starts, then pay for him to do it safely and correctly.

Regards,
Steve

________________________________
From: Kent Robertson mailto:karkauai%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters


 
Steve, that's a great explanation of our systems. I was looking at a 2500 W inverter because that's what my old Heart Interface charger/inverter had. I was looking at 100A charger on advice of others who've said it reduces their charge times. The old one was 65A. My usage is similar to yours, about 130 AH per day. My 420 AH battery bank would be pretty low if I tried to charge only once a day, but if I had a larger bank I could probably do it. The batteries I have are group 27 and a little larger than the group 31's, I think.
What kind of stand-alone inverter do you have? The Magnum charger is the one closest to the 100A / 2500W inverter that I could find. If I could find a 2500W stand alone inverter, that's what I'd do. Would I be able to use the same wiring that I have from the old Heart Interface? I'd need a 220 input for the charger, a 24v output from the charger (both from the old wiring), a 24V input to the inverter (which I could take from the 24V studs on the foreword bulkhead in the engine room) and use the 220V output cables from the old Heart. Am I missing something here? The old Heart had a 65 A charger, so maybe larger wires to the battery bank if I got a 100A charger? I guess if I got another 65 A charger I could run that one and the Charles 60A together for 125A during the bulk charge.

It looks like I should probably find a good electrician to help me with this, but I hate paying someone for hours of figuring out how Amels are wired, and I've not had much luck finding anyone in Brunswick who seems to know anything about European wiring. Has anyone had a good experience with an electrician from Jacksonville or Savannah?
Thanks again for all your thoughts and help.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

Steve Constantine <svsummerlove@...>
 

Hi Kent,

There's no question a 100A charger or two will reduce the charge times.  The way I see it though, is if I'm running the genset for 1.5 hours anyway to do other things, what have I gained by shortening the charge time?  For example, if I'm drawing 30A from the genset, I'll charge the batteries in half an hour, but I won't be able to run anything else.  I'd then have to continue to run it for another hour after the batteries are charged to cook dinner in the microwave, wash the dishes, and run the water heater for my shower.

When I decided to buy an Amel, a lot of it had to do with buying into the Amel philosophy.  Unlike other boat brands and models that last a few years on the market, this one had been designed on a world cruise, and then refined and improved for 15 years after that.  They'd pretty much got it figured out.  I really liked their on-board power management system.  It has a 7KW genset big enough to support all the appliances for comfortable living aboard, an enormous battery bank, and an inverter wired for times when the genset doesn't make sense.  Then they added a fuel tank big enough to support it all over a long ocean passage.  If the genset fails, there's the main engine as back-up.  Why change or complicate it?  

A well-designed battery plant starts with your consumption requirements (AH per day), and backs into the total AH capacity of the batteries and charger size that's required to achieve them; not by figuring how many amp hours can be fit into the battery box, then deciding how many chargers are required to keep them lit.  Your requirement is the same as mine... 130AH (and I think a lot of other SMs as well).  With 420AH in your batteries, that's about 31% of your capacity in a 24 hour period.  To replenish 130AH on a single daily charge, you'd have to run your 60A and 65A chargers for approximately 1.5 hours, assuming you let the batteries discharge to 50% before you start to charge them, and take them up to 81%. 

Regarding using the existing wiring for the new charger/inverter, you're probably OK re-using the 220VAC output cables from the inverter, and the 220VAC input and 24VDC output cables to the charger as long as you don't go any bigger than 65A.  If you go with a 100A charger, you'll probably need larger output cables.  However, for the 24VDC inverter input it's crucial to have the cables sized large enough to prevent voltage drop.  You can't just pick up 24V from any convenient terminal unless it's also being fed by large enough cables itself.  Where is your Heart I/F currently mounted (engine room, nav station)?  The best installation is to run a dedicated pair of cables (pos and neg) directly to the inverter input from the main battery switches using crimp connectors installed with the CORRECT crimping tool.  You should also have a correctly sized fuse (not a breaker) mounted as close to the battery end as possible on the + cable.  The fuse is
to protect the wiring, and NOT the inverter.  On a 4KW inverter, that's probably in the region of a 300A fuse.  If you've ever seen a direct short of 24V @ 300A to ground, you'll understand why it's there.

Regarding running two chargers in parallel.  It's not easy to get multiple charging devices to load share over the entire charge cycle, unless they were designed for it.  Like gensets, they run more efficiently when they are cranking out close to their capacities.  They will both pour the coals to the batteries at the start of the charge when the batteries are low, but as the current is reduced, they'll probably start to run less efficiently than a single charger.  You could maybe monitor the charge and experiment with turning one off at different points until you find the right balance.

I hear you loud and clear on your reluctance to pay an electrician to learn about Amel wiring.  I've found the best way is to figure out everything I can, then pay him to confirm what I think I now know.  That said, there's a case to be made for his expertise in safe electrical procedures and the specialized tools you won't have to buy or rent.  I think the best compromise is to know exactly what you want him to install, have all the obstacles out of his way and all the parts ready to go before he starts, then pay for him to do it safely and correctly.

Regards,
Steve


________________________________
From: Kent Robertson <karkauai@yahoo.com>
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters


 
Steve, that's a great explanation of our systems. I was looking at a 2500 W inverter because that's what my old Heart Interface charger/inverter had. I was looking at 100A charger on advice of others who've said it reduces their charge times. The old one was 65A. My usage is similar to yours, about 130 AH per day. My 420 AH battery bank would be pretty low if I tried to charge only once a day, but if I had a larger bank I could probably do it. The batteries I have are group 27 and a little larger than the group 31's, I think.
What kind of stand-alone inverter do you have? The Magnum charger is the one closest to the 100A / 2500W inverter that I could find. If I could find a 2500W stand alone inverter, that's what I'd do. Would I be able to use the same wiring that I have from the old Heart Interface? I'd need a 220 input for the charger, a 24v output from the charger (both from the old wiring), a 24V input to the inverter (which I could take from the 24V studs on the foreword bulkhead in the engine room) and use the 220V output cables from the old Heart. Am I missing something here? The old Heart had a 65 A charger, so maybe larger wires to the battery bank if I got a 100A charger? I guess if I got another 65 A charger I could run that one and the Charles 60A together for 125A during the bulk charge.

It looks like I should probably find a good electrician to help me with this, but I hate paying someone for hours of figuring out how Amels are wired, and I've not had much luck finding anyone in Brunswick who seems to know anything about European wiring. Has anyone had a good experience with an electrician from Jacksonville or Savannah?
Thanks again for all your thoughts and help.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank

karkauai
 

Thanks, Paul and Steve.
It's beginning to make sense to me now, but I still have a couple of questions:
 
Since the group 31 batteries are actually bigger than the group 27's I have now, I am convinced that there is no way I could put 12 of them in my battery crib.  Even if I could find some 120 A-H batteries, eight of them would only add up to 480 A-H battery bank.  Not enough to go 24hrs without charging using flooded lead acid batteries. So if I charge twice daily and am only discharged half of my 130-140 amp hours per day, the batteries are only down to 85% of capacity when I start to recharge.  There would be only a very short time for bulk charge and it doesn't seem that having 100A charging capacity would be doing me much good.  Perhaps that's why the original setup had a 65A Heart Interface (Freedom 25) charger and the backup charger was 50amp?
 
 
If I went to gel cell batteries, I understand that you can safely discharge them to
50% of capacity.  So then would I only charge once a day and be able to take advantage of the added charging amperage?
 
Can all smart chargers be hooked up in parallel so that both can be used at once and add their charging amperage?  If so, I could get another 60Amp Charles charger and use it in parallel with the one I have if I ever wanted the added charging capacity.
 
I'm sure I am misunderstanding something(s) about this...doesn't seem like it should be as complicated as I'm making it.  Maybe it's just because there are so many options?
 
I found a guy in Jacksonville who is familiar with and recommending Sterling Products.  Does anyone have any experience with Sterling or know anything about them?
 
Still learning...
Thanks again,
Kent
SM 243
KRISTY
currently Brunswick, GA
 
 


________________________________
From: Paul LaFrance <pflafrance@hotmail.com>
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank


Kent
The Magma charger works independent of the Dolphin charger when hooked up to shore power. The Dolphin 30 Amp charger takes 110/60 and puts it into 220/50 to the 24 V batteries. I run the inverter off the Magma to power the 220/50 items on the 220 panel in the galley . The 100 Amp Dolphin charger is not used as shore power in the USA is normally 30 Amp max and the line to charge  as supplied from Amel is not capable of taking higher amp output from shore. I will send picks of the batteries in the next few days

Paul LaFrance

To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
From: karkauai@yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:37:31 -0800
Subject: Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank




















 


   
     
     
      Does your Magnum inverter work independently of the charger?  ie if you are hooked up to 60 cycle shore power and run the microwave or A/C, are they getting 50Hz or 60 Hz power?

Kent





________________________________

From: Paul LaFrance pflafrance@hotmail.com>

To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 12:54 PM

Subject: RE: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank



 



Kent

The Magma charger is working great. Been in for 2.5 YRS. The only problem is when inverting is it drains the batteries quickly. ie: can only run the water maker for 1/2 hr before it shuts off due to low battery power. Can run 2 AC units for 2 hrs before low battery.

When charging with both units they put out approx. 190 amps for a short while and as batteries are being charged it decreases quite rapidly. 1/2 hr to replace 100 Amp Hrs.

When hooked up to shore power I run the power through the Dolphin 30 Amp charger. The Magma could also take 60 cycle and convert to 50 cycle.

I will sent photos of the Battery Bank if you can provide an email address so i can attach.

I would not separate the battery bank again as the current chargers can handle the required Amp/Hrs usage replacement



Paul & Sue LaFrance

SV NOMAD SM #362

Currently in St Marteen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





   
   

   
   






                         

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------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

Richard03801 <richard03801@...>
 

Kent you can bye 125 amp hour size 31 deep cycle batteries at Walmart. And a cranking battery for starting

Regards

Richard Piller

Cell 603 767 5330

On Feb 25, 2013, at 13:52, Sailorman <kimberlite@optonline.net> wrote:

Kent,

Why don't you drop Joel Potter a note. I am sure he knows someone that can
help you.

I believe the group 31 batteries are a bit larger than the group 27. When it
came time to replace them I called Interstate batteries directly, they gave
me the name of the regional distributor. Being that I needed 13 batteries he
gave me the dealers price of about $80- each. They delivered them to the
dock in NY and picked up the old ones. I used interstate as the battery
terminals and physical size were exactly the same as the original Amel
batteries (Dolphin)?

I have 30 and 100 amp dolphin chargers on board. My 30 amp went bad and
cooked my battery bank.; I sent it to Dolphin in France they only charged me

$150- to repair it.

My inverter is mounted high on the left side of the wet locker and is 110
volts, I just use it for the few 110 volt things I have on board. In
retrospect, I should have bought a 220 volt unit. It is a sine wave 2200
watt xantrex unit.

I also have a 175 amp alternator on my main engine ( yanmar)

Fair Winds

Eric

Amel Super Maramu #376 Kimberlite

_____

From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kent Robertson
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:24 AM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

Steve, that's a great explanation of our systems. I was looking at a 2500 W
inverter because that's what my old Heart Interface charger/inverter had. I
was looking at 100A charger on advice of others who've said it reduces their
charge times. The old one was 65A. My usage is similar to yours, about 130
AH per day. My 420 AH battery bank would be pretty low if I tried to charge
only once a day, but if I had a larger bank I could probably do it. The
batteries I have are group 27 and a little larger than the group 31's, I
think.
What kind of stand-alone inverter do you have? The Magnum charger is the one
closest to the 100A / 2500W inverter that I could find. If I could find a
2500W stand alone inverter, that's what I'd do. Would I be able to use the
same wiring that I have from the old Heart Interface? I'd need a 220 input
for the charger, a 24v output from the charger (both from the old wiring), a
24V input to the inverter (which I could take from the 24V studs on the
foreword bulkhead in the engine room) and use the 220V output cables from
the old Heart. Am I missing something here? The old Heart had a 65 A
charger, so maybe larger wires to the battery bank if I got a 100A charger?
I guess if I got another 65 A charger I could run that one and the Charles
60A together for 125A during the bulk charge.

It looks like I should probably find a good electrician to help me with
this, but I hate paying someone for hours of figuring out how Amels are
wired, and I've not had much luck finding anyone in Brunswick who seems to
know anything about European wiring. Has anyone had a good experience with
an electrician from Jacksonville or Savannah?
Thanks again for all your thoughts and help.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank

Paul LaFrance <pflafrance@...>
 

Kent
The Magma charger works independent of the Dolphin charger when hooked up to shore power. The Dolphin 30 Amp charger takes 110/60 and puts it into 220/50 to the 24 V batteries. I run the inverter off the Magma to power the 220/50 items on the 220 panel in the galley . The 100 Amp Dolphin charger is not used as shore power in the USA is normally 30 Amp max and the line to charge as supplied from Amel is not capable of taking higher amp output from shore. I will send picks of the batteries in the next few days

Paul LaFrance

To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
From: karkauai@yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:37:31 -0800
Subject: Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank


























Does your Magnum inverter work independently of the charger? ie if you are hooked up to 60 cycle shore power and run the microwave or A/C, are they getting 50Hz or 60 Hz power?

Kent





________________________________

From: Paul LaFrance pflafrance@hotmail.com>

To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 12:54 PM

Subject: RE: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank







Kent

The Magma charger is working great. Been in for 2.5 YRS. The only problem is when inverting is it drains the batteries quickly. ie: can only run the water maker for 1/2 hr before it shuts off due to low battery power. Can run 2 AC units for 2 hrs before low battery.

When charging with both units they put out approx. 190 amps for a short while and as batteries are being charged it decreases quite rapidly. 1/2 hr to replace 100 Amp Hrs.

When hooked up to shore power I run the power through the Dolphin 30 Amp charger. The Magma could also take 60 cycle and convert to 50 cycle.

I will sent photos of the Battery Bank if you can provide an email address so i can attach.

I would not separate the battery bank again as the current chargers can handle the required Amp/Hrs usage replacement



Paul & Sue LaFrance

SV NOMAD SM #362

Currently in St Marteen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

Steve Constantine <svsummerlove@...>
 

Kent,

I think the photo is just for the generic inverter.  If you download the Data Sheet to the right of the photo, it will give you the specific product numbers for the various configurations.  Mine is an 806-1884 (24V/230 Hardwire & transfer switch), which does not have the plug-in receptacle.  The transfer switch is necessary because it simplifies the wiring and always keeps the inverter isolated from other AC sources.  I also have the 808-1800 Remote interface kit, which allows me to monitor the inverter from the galley.  I believe the "i" in the 1800i is to indicate "international", which designate the 220V 50Hz models.

 I had to cut the buss bars shorter in the distribution panel to isolate the bottom two breakers, but since your inverter already appears to be wired to only the microwave and 220VAC outlets, you probably won't have to do that.  You may want to check just to be sure though. 

BTW I too was first interested in getting a 2400W inverter, but in practice I haven't needed any more than the 1800W model.  It will still surge to 2900W if required.  I just have to be paying enough attention to not try to run the toaster and the microwave at the same time. Not always easy.  :-)

Regards,
Steve


________________________________
From: Kent Robertson <karkauai@yahoo.com>
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters


 
Thanks again, Steve. I see that this Xantrex inverter has a 220 outlet on the front panel. Do you plug into that and wire the other end to the boat, or are there posts on the back for output too?
Kent

Sent from my iPhonent

On Feb 25, 2013, at 7:28 AM, Steve Constantine svsummerlove@yahoo.com> wrote:

Kent,

Sorry, I forgot to tell you my standalone inverter is a Xantrex ProSine 1800i 24V

http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-inverters/prosine-international.aspx

Steve
Summer Love
SM340
Currently Grenada

________________________________
From: Kent Robertson karkauai@yahoo.com>
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.comamelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 1:42 PM
Subject: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters



Thanks, Richard. I've been looking at all kinds of chargers and inverters. It seems that it's hard to find an inverter that doesn't have a charger too. There are plenty of inverters that have 220 outlets on the machine, but the ones that are built to be incorporated into the boat's systems all seem to be charger/inverters. The cost of separate charger and inverter appears to be something on the order of $1000 more than a charger/inverter combo. The Magnum that Paul has is about right with 125A charger and 4000W inverter. It's a great price but I'd like to hear from others about it's reliability and service record.

I've been looking at his battery bank post, and can't find any group 31 batteries that are rated at more than 110-120 amp hours (UltraPower does have some very large 200-220AHr batteries that weigh 95Kg)...do 215 amp-hr group 31 batteries really exist? Are they gel cell, amg, or flooded lead acid? The idea of having 3 times as much battery storage is intriguing, but I'm beginning to think that something isn't right about Paul's calculations???

I'm not worrying too much about 110 AC power. I have a 1000w inverter at the nav station that supplies my needs for charging electronics, etc, and am using 220 appliances for everything else.

Is it your understanding that even though an inverter produces 50Hz AC power, if there is 60Hz coming into the charger/inverter from shore power, it will pass that through to the appliance rather than use battery power and inverter to produce 50Hz AC power? Perhaps some of the newer combos have a way to program one way or the other? The only difference it makes is that when I'm connected to 60Hz shore power and want to run the microwave, I have to disconnect shore power and run off of the inverter to avoid the 60Hz power reaching the appliance. On my boat, only the microwave and receptacles are powered by the inverter, the other appliances and A/C and water heater must be powered by either the genset or shore power.

Electricity has never been my strong suit, and I'm learning as I go....but this stuff seems more difficult to sort out than it should be.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy
Currently Brunswick, GA



________________________________
From: Richard03801 richard03801@yahoo.com>
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.comamelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank


Hi Kent I would suggest that you buy a Charles or charger that's a smart charger that can accept 9p to 260 V and 50 or 60 Hz this will allow you to charge the battery no matter where you. Second I would buy a inverter and mount it outside the engine room perhaps at the nav station close to the batteries. Normally you will want a battery charger that will charge at an output of least 10% of the amperage required for the battery bank.
Placing a heavy load such as the AC units on the battery bank is a very high use of Amp hours and may cause batteries to overheat on the long-term.
Running the AC units off the gen set or shore power is probably a better solution.
To run your 110 v 60 cycle things you may need to wire the boat for some 110 plugs and run those from an inverter off the battery bank that gives you 110 V 60 cycles and a smoothly.
Good luck smooth sailing

Regards

Richard Piller

Cell 603 767 5330

On Feb 23, 2013, at 13:06, "Kent" mailto:karkauai%40yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi, Paul, et al,
I am looking to replace my old Heart Interface charger/inverter and am interested in the Magnum MS4124E. Your post below is very interesting and I'm thinking of doing something like this on Kristy (SM 243). I'd like to pick your brain a bit.

How do you like your Magnum charger/inverter now that you've had it for a while? Any idea what their service is like?

I currently have 8 105amp-hr series 27 lead acid batteries hooked up in 4 series pairs to give me a 420 amp-hour bank. I charge for about 1 1/2 hrs twice a day. Do you have a pic of your battery crib that shows how you squeeze 12 series 31 batteries in and how you have them wired? A wiring diagram would be great if you have one.

I virtually never use the A/C's unless hooked up to shore power. When I was hooked up to 60 Hz shore power, the old Heart Interface passed the shore power through to the microwave and receptacles, so if I wanted to run the microwave I had to disconnect shore power and use the inverter to get 50Hz 220 power. The washer/dryer, dishwasher, and A/C's are hooked up separately and do not receive power from the battery bank/inverter. I've always run the A/C's with 60Hz shore power, and in 5 years have only replaced one capacitor. I would like to be able to run them off of the inverter, but with my old Heart Interface, the shore power was passed through preferentially over the inverter. Does the Magnum do this or does it produce 50Hz power even when hooked up to 60Hz shore power? Does running the inverter continuously for the A/C's create any problem for the batteries or the inverter?

Thanks for any thoughts you might have. Please, others chime in as well.
Kent
SM 243
KRISTY

--- In mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com, "LaFrance" wrote:


We recently split our battery bank into 2 separate units mainly for charging purposes.

Our vessel is used 12 months of the year and is rarely on shore power. Amel provided the vessel with 12-12V lead acid house batteries with a Dolphin 100 Amp charger and a 30 Amp Dolphin charger. The 30 Amp charger is used for when connected to shore. Our research indicated that a 100 Amp charger is good for charging a battery bank of up to 400 Amp/Hrs. We currently consume 130 amp/hrs per day

The Dolphin charger was not of sufficient capacity to maintain the battery bank at the levels for charging. As per the Trojan Battery Company's charging and maintenance guide the charging voltage daily during absorption should be between 29.2V – 29.6V.(http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/UsersGuide_English.pdf) To accomplish this on the Dolphin, the #2 setting (which gives 29.6V) was selected. Due to line loss, the voltage to the batteries is 29.2V. We confirmed this with the USA representative in Florida. There are no settings available on the Dolphin 30 Amp charger to provide this voltage.

Our current Amp/Hr capacity is 1,290 Amp/Hrs (12 X 215 Amp/Hrs divided by 2) The batteries are type 31 made by UltraPower.

As we saw it the 100Amp charger was not sufficient to do the job hence splitting the batteries into 2 banks to 645 Amp/Hrs in each bank. The 100 Amp Dolphin charger still would not do the job as there are more than 400 Amp/Hrs. We then decided to install another battery charger with inverter capabilities. We chose a Magnum MS-E Series Pure Sine Wave Inverter/ Charger Model # MS4124E. This charger provides 105 Amps of charging power. We note that we get 114 Amps when charging (Bonus) The inverter provides us with 220V 50 Hz power to run the appliances on board without having to start the Genset. Cost of unit with remote control, temperature sensor & shipping $2,066.41 USD.

Now we can charge each bank with sufficient Voltage and Amps and it takes half the time when using both chargers. Other stand alone marine chargers were much more expensive and did not have the inverter function. Magnum chargers are mainly made for the trucking industry and do not carry the marine markup that we often see in place. The Magnum charger is a much smarter unit than the Dolpin in that it allows adjustments and tapers off when charging with Dolphin charger. When the Genset output is done to 14 Amps we turn off the Dolphin and leave the Magnum on as it is smarter and charges the batteries properly after the bulk charge.

As a result of the split we installed a Link 20 monitoring system to check the banks. The old Link 10 monitor now does the 12V starting battery. We also had designed another monitoring system by Blue Sea to monitor the output from the genset which has a 30 Amp breaker. When running both chargers the genset is putting out 29 Amps. As you may be aware a fully loaded and working diesel engine likes to be loaded up and will last longer. When charger is half done then we can turn on other 220V systems. This unit also tells us how the genset is working and when it may need repairs to the electrical part of the genset. It also allows us to monitor the draw from individual units on board and we can fix if we see a drop or increase in what the particular system is drawing.

This project took over 3 years to design and understand the Amel systems with a lot of input from people far more knowledgeable than us.

We now use one battery bank every 24 Hrs and then switch to the other bank ( bank 1 on odd days and bank 2 on even days)


BENEFITS
Less time charging the battery banks saving genset hours, fuel and maintenance
Inverter can supply power to 220V/50Hz systems without genset having to be run
When hooked up to shore power either 110V or 220V 50 or 60 hz the charge is run through the Dolphin 30 Amp charger and we then use the inverter to obtain 220V/50hz for our power needs on board. As a note the Air conditioning units require 50hz contrary to what Amel says. We checked with Clima on this and they stated on numerous occasions from different technicians that the capacitors will blow out. (As a side note when we were on shore power in the US we ran the Air Conditioning units and as a result had to replace 12 of the 15 AC capacitors as they were blown and not functioning) As we normally only have 110V/60hz or 220/60hz available we took this route. The added benefit of the Blue Sea unit is that it tells us what type of power is coming on board either 110/220V & 50/60hz
We can monitor what each unit is drawing on both the 24 V and 220V systems IE: Washer/Dryer, AC units, Bow thruster, Winches, Furlers etc

We now have the capability to know what is going into and out of the batteries. With the batteries being able to rest for 24 Hrs, we feel they will last longer and will not require equalization. We did not keep track of all the costs but installation took approx. 20 hours along with a lot of wire.
Magnum Charger $2,066.41, Link 20 $375.15, Blue Sea Monitor $875, 12 Batteries $1,285.48

As a side note the Dolphin 100Amp charger has an equalization setting. When we asked the Florida technician, he then inquired to France and they stated in no uncertain terms by email to not use it. We are on our 3rd Dolphin charger replaced 2 under warranty and 1 due to water damage when the water maker high pressure hose blew. It appears that the charger is set up for charging 2 separate banks but the divider breaks down over time. This was even before we installed the additional charger. Warranty work is dismal as they had to send units to France then on to the manufacturer. Our last warranty unit took over a year to be returned and we currently have one in for warranty since October 2010 and they don't know when we will get it back. The company is owned by REYA and they have some one else build them in Europe we think but can't confirm who. The USA representative is looking for another source to provide warranty work as REYA's contract expired in
December 2010. The Florida representative, Steve, has been more than helpful. His hands are tide and the company has tried on our behalf and numerous others to get info which is not coming back to them. When they ship the units back they go on a pallet as there are so many. No wonder they are looking for a new warranty provider. Who needs this type of customer service.

Paul LaFrance
SV NOMAD SM 362 Currently in St Lucia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

Eric Freedman
 

Kent,

Why don't you drop Joel Potter a note. I am sure he knows someone that can
help you.

I believe the group 31 batteries are a bit larger than the group 27. When it
came time to replace them I called Interstate batteries directly, they gave
me the name of the regional distributor. Being that I needed 13 batteries he
gave me the dealers price of about $80- each. They delivered them to the
dock in NY and picked up the old ones. I used interstate as the battery
terminals and physical size were exactly the same as the original Amel
batteries (Dolphin)?



I have 30 and 100 amp dolphin chargers on board. My 30 amp went bad and
cooked my battery bank.; I sent it to Dolphin in France they only charged me


$150- to repair it.



My inverter is mounted high on the left side of the wet locker and is 110
volts, I just use it for the few 110 volt things I have on board. In
retrospect, I should have bought a 220 volt unit. It is a sine wave 2200
watt xantrex unit.



I also have a 175 amp alternator on my main engine ( yanmar)



Fair Winds

Eric

Amel Super Maramu #376 Kimberlite





_____

From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kent Robertson
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:24 AM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters





Steve, that's a great explanation of our systems. I was looking at a 2500 W
inverter because that's what my old Heart Interface charger/inverter had. I
was looking at 100A charger on advice of others who've said it reduces their
charge times. The old one was 65A. My usage is similar to yours, about 130
AH per day. My 420 AH battery bank would be pretty low if I tried to charge
only once a day, but if I had a larger bank I could probably do it. The
batteries I have are group 27 and a little larger than the group 31's, I
think.
What kind of stand-alone inverter do you have? The Magnum charger is the one
closest to the 100A / 2500W inverter that I could find. If I could find a
2500W stand alone inverter, that's what I'd do. Would I be able to use the
same wiring that I have from the old Heart Interface? I'd need a 220 input
for the charger, a 24v output from the charger (both from the old wiring), a
24V input to the inverter (which I could take from the 24V studs on the
foreword bulkhead in the engine room) and use the 220V output cables from
the old Heart. Am I missing something here? The old Heart had a 65 A
charger, so maybe larger wires to the battery bank if I got a 100A charger?
I guess if I got another 65 A charger I could run that one and the Charles
60A together for 125A during the bulk charge.

It looks like I should probably find a good electrician to help me with
this, but I hate paying someone for hours of figuring out how Amels are
wired, and I've not had much luck finding anyone in Brunswick who seems to
know anything about European wiring. Has anyone had a good experience with
an electrician from Jacksonville or Savannah?
Thanks again for all your thoughts and help.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy




_____

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Re: [Amel] Re: Battery Chargers and Inverters

karkauai
 

Hi John,
I have already been in touch with Phil.  Too bad he's a thousand miles away.
Are you able to turn off your shore power at the primary 220 breaker (above the sink by the autopilot) and still get inverter power to the microwave, or did you install a new switch?
Do you have a high capacity charger or do you run two smaller capacity ones in parallel to do the bulk charge?
Thanks for your input.
Kent
 


________________________________
From: John S. Rogers <jsrogers@charter.net>
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 11:41 AM
Subject: [Amel] Re: Battery Chargers and Inverters

 
Hi Kent. I read the post by Paul LaFrance and recognized his name and his
boat because Phil Steel designed his power system as he did mine. I
forwarded your post on to him as he understands your problem.

Phil installed my Magnum charger / inverter with a Blue Sea Control System.
The answer to your question "Does the Magnum do this [give preference to
shore power} or does it produce 50Hz power even when hooked up to 60Hz shore
power? " is yes to both. It does give preference to shore power but you do
not have to unplug your shore power to use your microwave; just turn off the
shore power with a switch, turn on the microwave and the Magnum will
automatically start inverting power from your batteries to produce 220v/50hz
power. The power used by the batteries can then be replaced by a second
charger and depending upon its capacity, may potentially be replenished at
the same rate that it is used.

Phil will be glad to explain this too you (207-350-7080)

John Rogers, currently in Stratford, CT

S/V It's Good

SM #105

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Battery Chargers and Inverters

John S. Rogers <jsrogers@...>
 

Hi Kent. I read the post by Paul LaFrance and recognized his name and his
boat because Phil Steel designed his power system as he did mine. I
forwarded your post on to him as he understands your problem.



Phil installed my Magnum charger / inverter with a Blue Sea Control System.
The answer to your question "Does the Magnum do this [give preference to
shore power} or does it produce 50Hz power even when hooked up to 60Hz shore
power? " is yes to both. It does give preference to shore power but you do
not have to unplug your shore power to use your microwave; just turn off the
shore power with a switch, turn on the microwave and the Magnum will
automatically start inverting power from your batteries to produce 220v/50hz
power. The power used by the batteries can then be replaced by a second
charger and depending upon its capacity, may potentially be replenished at
the same rate that it is used.



Phil will be glad to explain this too you (207-350-7080)



John Rogers, currently in Stratford, CT

S/V It's Good

SM #105


Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

karkauai
 

Thanks again, Steve. I see that this Xantrex inverter has a 220 outlet on the front panel. Do you plug into that and wire the other end to the boat, or are there posts on the back for output too?
Kent

Sent from my iPhonent

On Feb 25, 2013, at 7:28 AM, Steve Constantine <svsummerlove@yahoo.com> wrote:

Kent,

Sorry, I forgot to tell you my standalone inverter is a Xantrex ProSine 1800i 24V

http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-inverters/prosine-international.aspx

Steve
Summer Love
SM340
Currently Grenada

________________________________
From: Kent Robertson karkauai@yahoo.com>
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 1:42 PM
Subject: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters



Thanks, Richard. I've been looking at all kinds of chargers and inverters. It seems that it's hard to find an inverter that doesn't have a charger too. There are plenty of inverters that have 220 outlets on the machine, but the ones that are built to be incorporated into the boat's systems all seem to be charger/inverters. The cost of separate charger and inverter appears to be something on the order of $1000 more than a charger/inverter combo. The Magnum that Paul has is about right with 125A charger and 4000W inverter. It's a great price but I'd like to hear from others about it's reliability and service record.

I've been looking at his battery bank post, and can't find any group 31 batteries that are rated at more than 110-120 amp hours (UltraPower does have some very large 200-220AHr batteries that weigh 95Kg)...do 215 amp-hr group 31 batteries really exist? Are they gel cell, amg, or flooded lead acid? The idea of having 3 times as much battery storage is intriguing, but I'm beginning to think that something isn't right about Paul's calculations???

I'm not worrying too much about 110 AC power. I have a 1000w inverter at the nav station that supplies my needs for charging electronics, etc, and am using 220 appliances for everything else.

Is it your understanding that even though an inverter produces 50Hz AC power, if there is 60Hz coming into the charger/inverter from shore power, it will pass that through to the appliance rather than use battery power and inverter to produce 50Hz AC power? Perhaps some of the newer combos have a way to program one way or the other? The only difference it makes is that when I'm connected to 60Hz shore power and want to run the microwave, I have to disconnect shore power and run off of the inverter to avoid the 60Hz power reaching the appliance. On my boat, only the microwave and receptacles are powered by the inverter, the other appliances and A/C and water heater must be powered by either the genset or shore power.

Electricity has never been my strong suit, and I'm learning as I go....but this stuff seems more difficult to sort out than it should be.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy
Currently Brunswick, GA



________________________________
From: Richard03801 richard03801@yahoo.com>
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.comamelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank


Hi Kent I would suggest that you buy a Charles or charger that's a smart charger that can accept 9p to 260 V and 50 or 60 Hz this will allow you to charge the battery no matter where you. Second I would buy a inverter and mount it outside the engine room perhaps at the nav station close to the batteries. Normally you will want a battery charger that will charge at an output of least 10% of the amperage required for the battery bank.
Placing a heavy load such as the AC units on the battery bank is a very high use of Amp hours and may cause batteries to overheat on the long-term.
Running the AC units off the gen set or shore power is probably a better solution.
To run your 110 v 60 cycle things you may need to wire the boat for some 110 plugs and run those from an inverter off the battery bank that gives you 110 V 60 cycles and a smoothly.
Good luck smooth sailing

Regards

Richard Piller

Cell 603 767 5330

On Feb 23, 2013, at 13:06, "Kent" mailto:karkauai%40yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi, Paul, et al,
I am looking to replace my old Heart Interface charger/inverter and am interested in the Magnum MS4124E. Your post below is very interesting and I'm thinking of doing something like this on Kristy (SM 243). I'd like to pick your brain a bit.

How do you like your Magnum charger/inverter now that you've had it for a while? Any idea what their service is like?

I currently have 8 105amp-hr series 27 lead acid batteries hooked up in 4 series pairs to give me a 420 amp-hour bank. I charge for about 1 1/2 hrs twice a day. Do you have a pic of your battery crib that shows how you squeeze 12 series 31 batteries in and how you have them wired? A wiring diagram would be great if you have one.

I virtually never use the A/C's unless hooked up to shore power. When I was hooked up to 60 Hz shore power, the old Heart Interface passed the shore power through to the microwave and receptacles, so if I wanted to run the microwave I had to disconnect shore power and use the inverter to get 50Hz 220 power. The washer/dryer, dishwasher, and A/C's are hooked up separately and do not receive power from the battery bank/inverter. I've always run the A/C's with 60Hz shore power, and in 5 years have only replaced one capacitor. I would like to be able to run them off of the inverter, but with my old Heart Interface, the shore power was passed through preferentially over the inverter. Does the Magnum do this or does it produce 50Hz power even when hooked up to 60Hz shore power? Does running the inverter continuously for the A/C's create any problem for the batteries or the inverter?

Thanks for any thoughts you might have. Please, others chime in as well.
Kent
SM 243
KRISTY

--- In mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com, "LaFrance" wrote:


We recently split our battery bank into 2 separate units mainly for charging purposes.

Our vessel is used 12 months of the year and is rarely on shore power. Amel provided the vessel with 12-12V lead acid house batteries with a Dolphin 100 Amp charger and a 30 Amp Dolphin charger. The 30 Amp charger is used for when connected to shore. Our research indicated that a 100 Amp charger is good for charging a battery bank of up to 400 Amp/Hrs. We currently consume 130 amp/hrs per day

The Dolphin charger was not of sufficient capacity to maintain the battery bank at the levels for charging. As per the Trojan Battery Company's charging and maintenance guide the charging voltage daily during absorption should be between 29.2V – 29.6V.(http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/UsersGuide_English.pdf) To accomplish this on the Dolphin, the #2 setting (which gives 29.6V) was selected. Due to line loss, the voltage to the batteries is 29.2V. We confirmed this with the USA representative in Florida. There are no settings available on the Dolphin 30 Amp charger to provide this voltage.

Our current Amp/Hr capacity is 1,290 Amp/Hrs (12 X 215 Amp/Hrs divided by 2) The batteries are type 31 made by UltraPower.

As we saw it the 100Amp charger was not sufficient to do the job hence splitting the batteries into 2 banks to 645 Amp/Hrs in each bank. The 100 Amp Dolphin charger still would not do the job as there are more than 400 Amp/Hrs. We then decided to install another battery charger with inverter capabilities. We chose a Magnum MS-E Series Pure Sine Wave Inverter/ Charger Model # MS4124E. This charger provides 105 Amps of charging power. We note that we get 114 Amps when charging (Bonus) The inverter provides us with 220V 50 Hz power to run the appliances on board without having to start the Genset. Cost of unit with remote control, temperature sensor & shipping $2,066.41 USD.

Now we can charge each bank with sufficient Voltage and Amps and it takes half the time when using both chargers. Other stand alone marine chargers were much more expensive and did not have the inverter function. Magnum chargers are mainly made for the trucking industry and do not carry the marine markup that we often see in place. The Magnum charger is a much smarter unit than the Dolpin in that it allows adjustments and tapers off when charging with Dolphin charger. When the Genset output is done to 14 Amps we turn off the Dolphin and leave the Magnum on as it is smarter and charges the batteries properly after the bulk charge.

As a result of the split we installed a Link 20 monitoring system to check the banks. The old Link 10 monitor now does the 12V starting battery. We also had designed another monitoring system by Blue Sea to monitor the output from the genset which has a 30 Amp breaker. When running both chargers the genset is putting out 29 Amps. As you may be aware a fully loaded and working diesel engine likes to be loaded up and will last longer. When charger is half done then we can turn on other 220V systems. This unit also tells us how the genset is working and when it may need repairs to the electrical part of the genset. It also allows us to monitor the draw from individual units on board and we can fix if we see a drop or increase in what the particular system is drawing.

This project took over 3 years to design and understand the Amel systems with a lot of input from people far more knowledgeable than us.

We now use one battery bank every 24 Hrs and then switch to the other bank ( bank 1 on odd days and bank 2 on even days)


BENEFITS
Less time charging the battery banks saving genset hours, fuel and maintenance
Inverter can supply power to 220V/50Hz systems without genset having to be run
When hooked up to shore power either 110V or 220V 50 or 60 hz the charge is run through the Dolphin 30 Amp charger and we then use the inverter to obtain 220V/50hz for our power needs on board. As a note the Air conditioning units require 50hz contrary to what Amel says. We checked with Clima on this and they stated on numerous occasions from different technicians that the capacitors will blow out. (As a side note when we were on shore power in the US we ran the Air Conditioning units and as a result had to replace 12 of the 15 AC capacitors as they were blown and not functioning) As we normally only have 110V/60hz or 220/60hz available we took this route. The added benefit of the Blue Sea unit is that it tells us what type of power is coming on board either 110/220V & 50/60hz
We can monitor what each unit is drawing on both the 24 V and 220V systems IE: Washer/Dryer, AC units, Bow thruster, Winches, Furlers etc

We now have the capability to know what is going into and out of the batteries. With the batteries being able to rest for 24 Hrs, we feel they will last longer and will not require equalization. We did not keep track of all the costs but installation took approx. 20 hours along with a lot of wire.
Magnum Charger $2,066.41, Link 20 $375.15, Blue Sea Monitor $875, 12 Batteries $1,285.48

As a side note the Dolphin 100Amp charger has an equalization setting. When we asked the Florida technician, he then inquired to France and they stated in no uncertain terms by email to not use it. We are on our 3rd Dolphin charger replaced 2 under warranty and 1 due to water damage when the water maker high pressure hose blew. It appears that the charger is set up for charging 2 separate banks but the divider breaks down over time. This was even before we installed the additional charger. Warranty work is dismal as they had to send units to France then on to the manufacturer. Our last warranty unit took over a year to be returned and we currently have one in for warranty since October 2010 and they don't know when we will get it back. The company is owned by REYA and they have some one else build them in Europe we think but can't confirm who. The USA representative is looking for another source to provide warranty work as REYA's contract expired in
December 2010. The Florida representative, Steve, has been more than helpful. His hands are tide and the company has tried on our behalf and numerous others to get info which is not coming back to them. When they ship the units back they go on a pallet as there are so many. No wonder they are looking for a new warranty provider. Who needs this type of customer service.

Paul LaFrance
SV NOMAD SM 362 Currently in St Lucia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

karkauai
 

Steve, that's a great explanation of our systems. I was looking at a 2500 W inverter because that's what my old Heart Interface charger/inverter had. I was looking at 100A charger on advice of others who've said it reduces their charge times. The old one was 65A. My usage is similar to yours, about 130 AH per day. My 420 AH battery bank would be pretty low if I tried to charge only once a day, but if I had a larger bank I could probably do it. The batteries I have are group 27 and a little larger than the group 31's, I think.
What kind of stand-alone inverter do you have? The Magnum charger is the one closest to the 100A / 2500W inverter that I could find. If I could find a 2500W stand alone inverter, that's what I'd do. Would I be able to use the same wiring that I have from the old Heart Interface? I'd need a 220 input for the charger, a 24v output from the charger (both from the old wiring), a 24V input to the inverter (which I could take from the 24V studs on the foreword bulkhead in the engine room) and use the 220V output cables from the old Heart. Am I missing something here? The old Heart had a 65 A charger, so maybe larger wires to the battery bank if I got a 100A charger? I guess if I got another 65 A charger I could run that one and the Charles 60A together for 125A during the bulk charge.

It looks like I should probably find a good electrician to help me with this, but I hate paying someone for hours of figuring out how Amels are wired, and I've not had much luck finding anyone in Brunswick who seems to know anything about European wiring. Has anyone had a good experience with an electrician from Jacksonville or Savannah?
Thanks again for all your thoughts and help.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

Steve Constantine <svsummerlove@...>
 

Kent,

Sorry, I forgot to tell you my standalone inverter is a Xantrex ProSine 1800i 24V

http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-inverters/prosine-international.aspx


Steve
Summer Love
SM340
Currently Grenada


________________________________
From: Kent Robertson <karkauai@yahoo.com>
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 1:42 PM
Subject: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters


 
Thanks, Richard.  I've been looking at all kinds of chargers and inverters.  It seems that it's hard to find an inverter that doesn't have a charger too.  There are plenty of inverters that have 220 outlets on the machine, but the ones that are built to be incorporated into the boat's systems all seem to be charger/inverters.  The cost of separate charger and inverter appears to be something on the order of $1000 more than a charger/inverter combo.  The Magnum that Paul has is about right with 125A charger and 4000W inverter.  It's a great price but I'd like to hear from others about it's reliability and service record.
 
I've been looking at his battery bank post, and can't find any group 31 batteries that are rated at more than 110-120 amp hours (UltraPower does have some very large 200-220AHr batteries that weigh 95Kg)...do 215 amp-hr group 31 batteries really exist?  Are they gel cell, amg, or flooded lead acid?  The idea of having 3 times as much battery storage is intriguing, but I'm beginning to think that something isn't right about Paul's calculations???
 
I'm not worrying too much about 110 AC power.  I have a 1000w inverter at the nav station that supplies my needs for charging electronics, etc, and am using 220 appliances for everything else.
 
Is it your understanding that even though an inverter produces 50Hz AC power, if there is 60Hz coming into the charger/inverter from shore power, it will pass that through to the appliance rather than use battery power and inverter to produce 50Hz AC power?  Perhaps some of the newer combos have a way to program one way or the other?  The only difference it makes is that when I'm connected to 60Hz shore power and want to run the microwave, I have to disconnect shore power and run off of the inverter to avoid the 60Hz power reaching the appliance.  On my boat, only the microwave and receptacles are powered by the inverter, the other appliances and A/C and water heater must be powered by either the genset or shore power.
 
Electricity has never been my strong suit, and I'm learning as I go....but this stuff seems more difficult to sort out than it should be.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy
Currently Brunswick, GA
 
 

________________________________
From: Richard03801 richard03801@yahoo.com>
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank

 
Hi Kent I would suggest that you buy a Charles or charger that's a smart charger that can accept 9p to 260 V and 50 or 60 Hz this will allow you to charge the battery no matter where you. Second I would buy a inverter and mount it outside the engine room perhaps at the nav station close to the batteries. Normally you will want a battery charger that will charge at an output of least 10% of the amperage required for the battery bank.
Placing a heavy load such as the AC units on the battery bank is a very high use of Amp hours and may cause batteries to overheat on the long-term.
Running the AC units off the gen set or shore power is probably a better solution.
To run your 110 v 60 cycle things you may need to wire the boat for some 110 plugs and run those from an inverter off the battery bank that gives you 110 V 60 cycles and a smoothly.
Good luck smooth sailing

Regards

Richard Piller

Cell 603 767 5330

On Feb 23, 2013, at 13:06, "Kent" mailto:karkauai%40yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi, Paul, et al,
I am looking to replace my old Heart Interface charger/inverter and am interested in the Magnum MS4124E. Your post below is very interesting and I'm thinking of doing something like this on Kristy (SM 243). I'd like to pick your brain a bit.

How do you like your Magnum charger/inverter now that you've had it for a while? Any idea what their service is like?

I currently have 8 105amp-hr series 27 lead acid batteries hooked up in 4 series pairs to give me a 420 amp-hour bank. I charge for about 1 1/2 hrs twice a day. Do you have a pic of your battery crib that shows how you squeeze 12 series 31 batteries in and how you have them wired? A wiring diagram would be great if you have one.

I virtually never use the A/C's unless hooked up to shore power. When I was hooked up to 60 Hz shore power, the old Heart Interface passed the shore power through to the microwave and receptacles, so if I wanted to run the microwave I had to disconnect shore power and use the inverter to get 50Hz 220 power. The washer/dryer, dishwasher, and A/C's are hooked up separately and do not receive power from the battery bank/inverter. I've always run the A/C's with 60Hz shore power, and in 5 years have only replaced one capacitor. I would like to be able to run them off of the inverter, but with my old Heart Interface, the shore power was passed through preferentially over the inverter. Does the Magnum do this or does it produce 50Hz power even when hooked up to 60Hz shore power? Does running the inverter continuously for the A/C's create any problem for the batteries or the inverter?

Thanks for any thoughts you might have. Please, others chime in as well.
Kent
SM 243
KRISTY

--- In mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com, "LaFrance" wrote:


We recently split our battery bank into 2 separate units mainly for charging purposes.

Our vessel is used 12 months of the year and is rarely on shore power. Amel provided the vessel with 12-12V lead acid house batteries with a Dolphin 100 Amp charger and a 30 Amp Dolphin charger. The 30 Amp charger is used for when connected to shore. Our research indicated that a 100 Amp charger is good for charging a battery bank of up to 400 Amp/Hrs. We currently consume 130 amp/hrs per day

The Dolphin charger was not of sufficient capacity to maintain the battery bank at the levels for charging. As per the Trojan Battery Company's charging and maintenance guide the charging voltage daily during absorption should be between 29.2V – 29.6V.(http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/UsersGuide_English.pdf) To accomplish this on the Dolphin, the #2 setting (which gives 29.6V) was selected. Due to line loss, the voltage to the batteries is 29.2V. We confirmed this with the USA representative in Florida. There are no settings available on the Dolphin 30 Amp charger to provide this voltage.

Our current Amp/Hr capacity is 1,290 Amp/Hrs (12 X 215 Amp/Hrs divided by 2) The batteries are type 31 made by UltraPower.

As we saw it the 100Amp charger was not sufficient to do the job hence splitting the batteries into 2 banks to 645 Amp/Hrs in each bank. The 100 Amp Dolphin charger still would not do the job as there are more than 400 Amp/Hrs. We then decided to install another battery charger with inverter capabilities. We chose a Magnum MS-E Series Pure Sine Wave Inverter/ Charger Model # MS4124E. This charger provides 105 Amps of charging power. We note that we get 114 Amps when charging (Bonus) The inverter provides us with 220V 50 Hz power to run the appliances on board without having to start the Genset. Cost of unit with remote control, temperature sensor & shipping $2,066.41 USD.

Now we can charge each bank with sufficient Voltage and Amps and it takes half the time when using both chargers. Other stand alone marine chargers were much more expensive and did not have the inverter function. Magnum chargers are mainly made for the trucking industry and do not carry the marine markup that we often see in place. The Magnum charger is a much smarter unit than the Dolpin in that it allows adjustments and tapers off when charging with Dolphin charger. When the Genset output is done to 14 Amps we turn off the Dolphin and leave the Magnum on as it is smarter and charges the batteries properly after the bulk charge.

As a result of the split we installed a Link 20 monitoring system to check the banks. The old Link 10 monitor now does the 12V starting battery. We also had designed another monitoring system by Blue Sea to monitor the output from the genset which has a 30 Amp breaker. When running both chargers the genset is putting out 29 Amps. As you may be aware a fully loaded and working diesel engine likes to be loaded up and will last longer. When charger is half done then we can turn on other 220V systems. This unit also tells us how the genset is working and when it may need repairs to the electrical part of the genset. It also allows us to monitor the draw from individual units on board and we can fix if we see a drop or increase in what the particular system is drawing.

This project took over 3 years to design and understand the Amel systems with a lot of input from people far more knowledgeable than us.

We now use one battery bank every 24 Hrs and then switch to the other bank ( bank 1 on odd days and bank 2 on even days)


BENEFITS
Less time charging the battery banks saving genset hours, fuel and maintenance
Inverter can supply power to 220V/50Hz systems without genset having to be run
When hooked up to shore power either 110V or 220V 50 or 60 hz the charge is run through the Dolphin 30 Amp charger and we then use the inverter to obtain 220V/50hz for our power needs on board. As a note the Air conditioning units require 50hz contrary to what Amel says. We checked with Clima on this and they stated on numerous occasions from different technicians that the capacitors will blow out. (As a side note when we were on shore power in the US we ran the Air Conditioning units and as a result had to replace 12 of the 15 AC capacitors as they were blown and not functioning) As we normally only have 110V/60hz or 220/60hz available we took this route. The added benefit of the Blue Sea unit is that it tells us what type of power is coming on board either 110/220V & 50/60hz
We can monitor what each unit is drawing on both the 24 V and 220V systems IE: Washer/Dryer, AC units, Bow thruster, Winches, Furlers etc

We now have the capability to know what is going into and out of the batteries. With the batteries being able to rest for 24 Hrs, we feel they will last longer and will not require equalization. We did not keep track of all the costs but installation took approx. 20 hours along with a lot of wire.
Magnum Charger $2,066.41, Link 20 $375.15, Blue Sea Monitor $875, 12 Batteries $1,285.48

As a side note the Dolphin 100Amp charger has an equalization setting. When we asked the Florida technician, he then inquired to France and they stated in no uncertain terms by email to not use it. We are on our 3rd Dolphin charger replaced 2 under warranty and 1 due to water damage when the water maker high pressure hose blew. It appears that the charger is set up for charging 2 separate banks but the divider breaks down over time. This was even before we installed the additional charger. Warranty work is dismal as they had to send units to France then on to the manufacturer. Our last warranty unit took over a year to be returned and we currently have one in for warranty since October 2010 and they don't know when we will get it back. The company is owned by REYA and they have some one else build them in Europe we think but can't confirm who. The USA representative is looking for another source to provide warranty work as REYA's contract expired in
December 2010. The Florida representative, Steve, has been more than helpful. His hands are tide and the company has tried on our behalf and numerous others to get info which is not coming back to them. When they ship the units back they go on a pallet as there are so many. No wonder they are looking for a new warranty provider. Who needs this type of customer service.

Paul LaFrance
SV NOMAD SM 362 Currently in St Lucia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Inverters

john martin <symoondog@...>
 

I put a simple 2500 watt inverter under the cabinets over the crew bunk. I ran the wires up in the cabinets over and down to the batteries. Quick and easy. You can't see the inverter unless you lean down to look. I can run the vacuum cleaner, computer, drill, power tools, and charge all kinds of items at once. It uses very little power. John 'Moon Dog' SM 248


Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

Steve Constantine <svsummerlove@...>
 

Hi Kent,

Summer Love (SM340) has the same size battery compartment that you probably have on Kristy (i.e. 8 - 12V size 30H Trojan SCS225 house, plus 1 starting).  I seem to remember Joel telling me that he had convinced Amel to increase the size of the battery compartment on the later model SMs (please correct me if I'm wrong on this, Joel), which would explain why Paul is able to fit 12 of them and we can't.  If "Kristy" doesn't have the larger compartment, you'll be limited to 9 batteries.

I'm curious why you feel you need a 4KW inverter when your boat already has a perfectly good 7KW genset.  When I wired my system I used the schematics in the Amel manual, so I have the same configuration you have.  In other words, the inverter is only wired through to the microwave and 220VAC outlet breakers at the distribution panel.  The rest of the breakers are isolated from the inverter, and only receive AC power from the shore cable or the genset.  Amel knew what they were doing when they designed it this way.  The purpose of the inverter is to provide AC power when it isn't practicable to start the genset (i.e. warm up then cool down).  This would apply to a few minutes of microwaving, making toast, drying hair, vacuuming up some crumbs, or mixing a frozen drink in the blender. Anything longer than that, such as doing laundry running the dishwasher or the A/C, making/heating water, etc., and it's worth your while to start up the genset.
 Since all these longer functions can be planned in advance far easier than say, satisfying your craving for popcorn in the next five minutes, you can group them together at a time when the genset would be running anyway around mealtimes or to charge the batteries. The benefit of this is that you really only need an inverter capable of short-duration, relatively low amperage operation; and you can still run the genset at a high load for efficiency.

I also don't understand the need for multiple 100A chargers when you're only consuming 130AH per day.  Chargers and inverters are notoriously inefficient to begin with, never mind having capacity you can't really use.  I have a 520A battery bank, which means at 130AH I'm using 25% of my total capacity per day.   Batteries charge most efficiently from 50% to 80% of their capacity.  After that, more and more output current from the charger is required to input less and less into the batteries.  It's a little like blowing up an air mattress or dinghy... at first it's easy to pump and a lot of air gets in quickly, but the nearer you get to full capacity, the harder it is to pump and less air is being forced in.  So, if you can replace your 25% by charging from 55% to 80%, you'll be a lot more efficient than charging from 75% to 100%.  Trojan recommends a charging current of 10% to 13% of bank capacity for flooded batteries (20% for AGM).  I
installed two 30A Xantrex 2430 chargers, which can be "stacked" to run in parallel for a total of 60A.  With the aforementioned "air mattress effect", the best I can usually get is an average charging efficiency of 43AH per hour.  If I charge twice a day, I need to replenish 65AH each time... or about 1.5 hours, which coincides with the wash cycle on the washer or the time required to make about 240 L of water.  

I chose to go with separate inverter and chargers.  When I'm on shore power, I can just use one of the 30A chargers, which also gives me a spare in case one or the other fails.  I can then send the defective one for repair without losing my inverter with it.  The other thing to remember is that a 4KW inverter draws about 250A.  Unless you want to go into a sideline business smelting aluminum or something, that's an awful lot of power.  Due to the interference noise that can be generated by inverters and chargers, I chose to install them in the engine room, because I wanted them well away from the the nav station electronics and exposure to water in the wet locker.  To prevent voltage drop at that distance, I ended up with 16' of 1/0 cable in each direction and a 100A fuse for the 1800W inverter.  Had that been a 4KW inverter, I'd be looking at 4/0 cable or larger and a 300A fuse. This would have required much larger cutting and crimping tools,
not to mention the cost, weight and the challenges of working with that size cable.

As far as I can recall, I don't know of any inverters that override the shore power or genset, although they could be rewired to work that way.  That said, I checked the Amel schematic (Schema Detail K1-K2).  IF you have the original Amel installed 1200W inverter, AND they wired it per this schematic, it appears the K2 relay operates when 60/50Hz shore/genset power is sent to it, which then cuts off the 50Hz inverter AC to the microwave, and replaces it with shore power.  The connections feeding the winding of the K2 relay are downstream (on the appliance side) of the master 32A breaker mounted on the side of the 220V distribution panel. If you turn off that breaker, it will drop the K2 relay and you should still get 50Hz AC from the inverter to your microwave and 220V outlets, while at the same time disconnecting power from all the other breakers.  It will at least save you having to go out on the dock to unplug it.  To verify if this will in
fact be the case, connect a voltmeter to one of the 220V outlets (you should get 220V). Then turn on the dishwasher breaker on the panel (the light should illuminate on the dishwasher).  Turn off the master 32A breaker (you should see a quick disappearance and return of voltage on the voltmeter as the K2 relay cuts the 60Hz off and applies the 50Hz from the inverter, and the dishwasher light should go out).  You could also disconnect AND CAP the wires going from the breaker panel to the K2 relay, which would give you a permanent inverter fed microwave and outlet configuration.  Just remember to reconnect it when you get to a place with 50Hz shore power.

Hope this helps,

Steve
Summer Love
SM340
Currently Grenada





________________________________
From: Kent Robertson <karkauai@yahoo.com>
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 1:42 PM
Subject: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters


 
Thanks, Richard.  I've been looking at all kinds of chargers and inverters.  It seems that it's hard to find an inverter that doesn't have a charger too.  There are plenty of inverters that have 220 outlets on the machine, but the ones that are built to be incorporated into the boat's systems all seem to be charger/inverters.  The cost of separate charger and inverter appears to be something on the order of $1000 more than a charger/inverter combo.  The Magnum that Paul has is about right with 125A charger and 4000W inverter.  It's a great price but I'd like to hear from others about it's reliability and service record.
 
I've been looking at his battery bank post, and can't find any group 31 batteries that are rated at more than 110-120 amp hours (UltraPower does have some very large 200-220AHr batteries that weigh 95Kg)...do 215 amp-hr group 31 batteries really exist?  Are they gel cell, amg, or flooded lead acid?  The idea of having 3 times as much battery storage is intriguing, but I'm beginning to think that something isn't right about Paul's calculations???
 
I'm not worrying too much about 110 AC power.  I have a 1000w inverter at the nav station that supplies my needs for charging electronics, etc, and am using 220 appliances for everything else.
 
Is it your understanding that even though an inverter produces 50Hz AC power, if there is 60Hz coming into the charger/inverter from shore power, it will pass that through to the appliance rather than use battery power and inverter to produce 50Hz AC power?  Perhaps some of the newer combos have a way to program one way or the other?  The only difference it makes is that when I'm connected to 60Hz shore power and want to run the microwave, I have to disconnect shore power and run off of the inverter to avoid the 60Hz power reaching the appliance.  On my boat, only the microwave and receptacles are powered by the inverter, the other appliances and A/C and water heater must be powered by either the genset or shore power.
 
Electricity has never been my strong suit, and I'm learning as I go....but this stuff seems more difficult to sort out than it should be.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy
Currently Brunswick, GA
 
 

________________________________
From: Richard03801 richard03801@yahoo.com>
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank

 
Hi Kent I would suggest that you buy a Charles or charger that's a smart charger that can accept 9p to 260 V and 50 or 60 Hz this will allow you to charge the battery no matter where you. Second I would buy a inverter and mount it outside the engine room perhaps at the nav station close to the batteries. Normally you will want a battery charger that will charge at an output of least 10% of the amperage required for the battery bank.
Placing a heavy load such as the AC units on the battery bank is a very high use of Amp hours and may cause batteries to overheat on the long-term.
Running the AC units off the gen set or shore power is probably a better solution.
To run your 110 v 60 cycle things you may need to wire the boat for some 110 plugs and run those from an inverter off the battery bank that gives you 110 V 60 cycles and a smoothly.
Good luck smooth sailing

Regards

Richard Piller

Cell 603 767 5330

On Feb 23, 2013, at 13:06, "Kent" mailto:karkauai%40yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi, Paul, et al,
I am looking to replace my old Heart Interface charger/inverter and am interested in the Magnum MS4124E. Your post below is very interesting and I'm thinking of doing something like this on Kristy (SM 243). I'd like to pick your brain a bit.

How do you like your Magnum charger/inverter now that you've had it for a while? Any idea what their service is like?

I currently have 8 105amp-hr series 27 lead acid batteries hooked up in 4 series pairs to give me a 420 amp-hour bank. I charge for about 1 1/2 hrs twice a day. Do you have a pic of your battery crib that shows how you squeeze 12 series 31 batteries in and how you have them wired? A wiring diagram would be great if you have one.

I virtually never use the A/C's unless hooked up to shore power. When I was hooked up to 60 Hz shore power, the old Heart Interface passed the shore power through to the microwave and receptacles, so if I wanted to run the microwave I had to disconnect shore power and use the inverter to get 50Hz 220 power. The washer/dryer, dishwasher, and A/C's are hooked up separately and do not receive power from the battery bank/inverter. I've always run the A/C's with 60Hz shore power, and in 5 years have only replaced one capacitor. I would like to be able to run them off of the inverter, but with my old Heart Interface, the shore power was passed through preferentially over the inverter. Does the Magnum do this or does it produce 50Hz power even when hooked up to 60Hz shore power? Does running the inverter continuously for the A/C's create any problem for the batteries or the inverter?

Thanks for any thoughts you might have. Please, others chime in as well.
Kent
SM 243
KRISTY

--- In mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com, "LaFrance" wrote:


We recently split our battery bank into 2 separate units mainly for charging purposes.

Our vessel is used 12 months of the year and is rarely on shore power. Amel provided the vessel with 12-12V lead acid house batteries with a Dolphin 100 Amp charger and a 30 Amp Dolphin charger. The 30 Amp charger is used for when connected to shore. Our research indicated that a 100 Amp charger is good for charging a battery bank of up to 400 Amp/Hrs. We currently consume 130 amp/hrs per day

The Dolphin charger was not of sufficient capacity to maintain the battery bank at the levels for charging. As per the Trojan Battery Company's charging and maintenance guide the charging voltage daily during absorption should be between 29.2V – 29.6V.(http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/UsersGuide_English.pdf) To accomplish this on the Dolphin, the #2 setting (which gives 29.6V) was selected. Due to line loss, the voltage to the batteries is 29.2V. We confirmed this with the USA representative in Florida. There are no settings available on the Dolphin 30 Amp charger to provide this voltage.

Our current Amp/Hr capacity is 1,290 Amp/Hrs (12 X 215 Amp/Hrs divided by 2) The batteries are type 31 made by UltraPower.

As we saw it the 100Amp charger was not sufficient to do the job hence splitting the batteries into 2 banks to 645 Amp/Hrs in each bank. The 100 Amp Dolphin charger still would not do the job as there are more than 400 Amp/Hrs. We then decided to install another battery charger with inverter capabilities. We chose a Magnum MS-E Series Pure Sine Wave Inverter/ Charger Model # MS4124E. This charger provides 105 Amps of charging power. We note that we get 114 Amps when charging (Bonus) The inverter provides us with 220V 50 Hz power to run the appliances on board without having to start the Genset. Cost of unit with remote control, temperature sensor & shipping $2,066.41 USD.

Now we can charge each bank with sufficient Voltage and Amps and it takes half the time when using both chargers. Other stand alone marine chargers were much more expensive and did not have the inverter function. Magnum chargers are mainly made for the trucking industry and do not carry the marine markup that we often see in place. The Magnum charger is a much smarter unit than the Dolpin in that it allows adjustments and tapers off when charging with Dolphin charger. When the Genset output is done to 14 Amps we turn off the Dolphin and leave the Magnum on as it is smarter and charges the batteries properly after the bulk charge.

As a result of the split we installed a Link 20 monitoring system to check the banks. The old Link 10 monitor now does the 12V starting battery. We also had designed another monitoring system by Blue Sea to monitor the output from the genset which has a 30 Amp breaker. When running both chargers the genset is putting out 29 Amps. As you may be aware a fully loaded and working diesel engine likes to be loaded up and will last longer. When charger is half done then we can turn on other 220V systems. This unit also tells us how the genset is working and when it may need repairs to the electrical part of the genset. It also allows us to monitor the draw from individual units on board and we can fix if we see a drop or increase in what the particular system is drawing.

This project took over 3 years to design and understand the Amel systems with a lot of input from people far more knowledgeable than us.

We now use one battery bank every 24 Hrs and then switch to the other bank ( bank 1 on odd days and bank 2 on even days)


BENEFITS
Less time charging the battery banks saving genset hours, fuel and maintenance
Inverter can supply power to 220V/50Hz systems without genset having to be run
When hooked up to shore power either 110V or 220V 50 or 60 hz the charge is run through the Dolphin 30 Amp charger and we then use the inverter to obtain 220V/50hz for our power needs on board. As a note the Air conditioning units require 50hz contrary to what Amel says. We checked with Clima on this and they stated on numerous occasions from different technicians that the capacitors will blow out. (As a side note when we were on shore power in the US we ran the Air Conditioning units and as a result had to replace 12 of the 15 AC capacitors as they were blown and not functioning) As we normally only have 110V/60hz or 220/60hz available we took this route. The added benefit of the Blue Sea unit is that it tells us what type of power is coming on board either 110/220V & 50/60hz
We can monitor what each unit is drawing on both the 24 V and 220V systems IE: Washer/Dryer, AC units, Bow thruster, Winches, Furlers etc

We now have the capability to know what is going into and out of the batteries. With the batteries being able to rest for 24 Hrs, we feel they will last longer and will not require equalization. We did not keep track of all the costs but installation took approx. 20 hours along with a lot of wire.
Magnum Charger $2,066.41, Link 20 $375.15, Blue Sea Monitor $875, 12 Batteries $1,285.48

As a side note the Dolphin 100Amp charger has an equalization setting. When we asked the Florida technician, he then inquired to France and they stated in no uncertain terms by email to not use it. We are on our 3rd Dolphin charger replaced 2 under warranty and 1 due to water damage when the water maker high pressure hose blew. It appears that the charger is set up for charging 2 separate banks but the divider breaks down over time. This was even before we installed the additional charger. Warranty work is dismal as they had to send units to France then on to the manufacturer. Our last warranty unit took over a year to be returned and we currently have one in for warranty since October 2010 and they don't know when we will get it back. The company is owned by REYA and they have some one else build them in Europe we think but can't confirm who. The USA representative is looking for another source to provide warranty work as REYA's contract expired in
December 2010. The Florida representative, Steve, has been more than helpful. His hands are tide and the company has tried on our behalf and numerous others to get info which is not coming back to them. When they ship the units back they go on a pallet as there are so many. No wonder they are looking for a new warranty provider. Who needs this type of customer service.

Paul LaFrance
SV NOMAD SM 362 Currently in St Lucia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

Judy and Bill aboard SV BeBe <yahoogroups@...>
 

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, Kent Robertson <karkauai@...> wrote:

Thanks so much Paul.  So those 12 batteries are 120 A-H each in 6 pairs, right?
 
I would really appreciate a pic of the battery crib.  Please send to karkauai(at)yahoo(dot)com.
 
Thanks again.
Kent
SM243
KRISTY


________________________________
From: Paul LaFrance <pflafrance@...>
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters


Kent
You are quite correct that my calculations are off. We have a total of 720 Amp Hrs in 12 lead acid batteries.
 
Paul LaFrance

To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
From: karkauai@...
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:42:56 -0800
Subject: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters




















 


   
     
     
      Thanks, Richard.  I've been looking at all kinds of chargers and inverters.  It seems that it's hard to find an inverter that doesn't have a charger too.  There are plenty of inverters that have 220 outlets on the machine, but the ones that are built to be incorporated into the boat's systems all seem to be charger/inverters.  The cost of separate charger and inverter appears to be something on the order of $1000 more than a charger/inverter combo.  The Magnum that Paul has is about right with 125A charger and 4000W inverter.  It's a great price but I'd like to hear from others about it's reliability and service record.



I've been looking at his battery bank post, and can't find any group 31 batteries that are rated at more than 110-120 amp hours (UltraPower does have some very large 200-220AHr batteries that weigh 95Kg)...do 215 amp-hr group 31 batteries really exist?  Are they gel cell, amg, or flooded lead acid?  The idea of having 3 times as much battery storage is intriguing, but I'm beginning to think that something isn't right about Paul's calculations???



I'm not worrying too much about 110 AC power.  I have a 1000w inverter at the nav station that supplies my needs for charging electronics, etc, and am using 220 appliances for everything else.



Is it your understanding that even though an inverter produces 50Hz AC power, if there is 60Hz coming into the charger/inverter from shore power, it will pass that through to the appliance rather than use battery power and inverter to produce 50Hz AC power?  Perhaps some of the newer combos have a way to program one way or the other?  The only difference it makes is that when I'm connected to 60Hz shore power and want to run the microwave, I have to disconnect shore power and run off of the inverter to avoid the 60Hz power reaching the appliance.  On my boat, only the microwave and receptacles are powered by the inverter, the other appliances and A/C and water heater must be powered by either the genset or shore power.



Electricity has never been my strong suit, and I'm learning as I go....but this stuff seems more difficult to sort out than it should be.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy

Currently Brunswick, GA







________________________________

From: Richard03801 richard03801@...>

To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 10:37 AM

Subject: Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank



 

Hi Kent I would suggest that you buy a Charles or charger that's a smart charger that can accept 9p to 260 V and 50 or 60 Hz this will allow you to charge the battery no matter where you. Second I would buy a inverter and mount it outside the engine room perhaps at the nav station close to the batteries. Normally you will want a battery charger that will charge at an output of least 10% of the amperage required for the battery bank.

Placing a heavy load such as the AC units on the battery bank is a very high use of Amp hours and may cause batteries to overheat on the long-term.

Running the AC units off the gen set or shore power is probably a better solution.

To run your 110 v 60 cycle things you may need to wire the boat for some 110 plugs and run those from an inverter off the battery bank that gives you 110 V 60 cycles and a smoothly.

Good luck smooth sailing



Regards



Richard Piller



Cell 603 767 5330



On Feb 23, 2013, at 13:06, "Kent" mailto:karkauai%40yahoo.com> wrote:



Hi, Paul, et al,

I am looking to replace my old Heart Interface charger/inverter and am interested in the Magnum MS4124E. Your post below is very interesting and I'm thinking of doing something like this on Kristy (SM 243). I'd like to pick your brain a bit.



How do you like your Magnum charger/inverter now that you've had it for a while? Any idea what their service is like?



I currently have 8 105amp-hr series 27 lead acid batteries hooked up in 4 series pairs to give me a 420 amp-hour bank. I charge for about 1 1/2 hrs twice a day. Do you have a pic of your battery crib that shows how you squeeze 12 series 31 batteries in and how you have them wired? A wiring diagram would be great if you have one.



I virtually never use the A/C's unless hooked up to shore power. When I was hooked up to 60 Hz shore power, the old Heart Interface passed the shore power through to the microwave and receptacles, so if I wanted to run the microwave I had to disconnect shore power and use the inverter to get 50Hz 220 power. The washer/dryer, dishwasher, and A/C's are hooked up separately and do not receive power from the battery bank/inverter. I've always run the A/C's with 60Hz shore power, and in 5 years have only replaced one capacitor. I would like to be able to run them off of the inverter, but with my old Heart Interface, the shore power was passed through preferentially over the inverter. Does the Magnum do this or does it produce 50Hz power even when hooked up to 60Hz shore power? Does running the inverter continuously for the A/C's create any problem for the batteries or the inverter?



Thanks for any thoughts you might have. Please, others chime in as well.

Kent

SM 243

KRISTY



--- In mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com, "LaFrance" wrote:

We recently split our battery bank into 2 separate units mainly for charging purposes.
Our vessel is used 12 months of the year and is rarely on shore power. Amel provided the vessel with 12-12V lead acid house batteries with a Dolphin 100 Amp charger and a 30 Amp Dolphin charger. The 30 Amp charger is used for when connected to shore. Our research indicated that a 100 Amp charger is good for charging a battery bank of up to 400 Amp/Hrs. We currently consume 130 amp/hrs per day
The Dolphin charger was not of sufficient capacity to maintain the battery bank at the levels for charging. As per the Trojan Battery Company's charging and maintenance guide the charging voltage daily during absorption should be between 29.2V â€" 29.6V.(http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/UsersGuide_English.pdf) To accomplish this on the Dolphin, the #2 setting (which gives 29.6V) was selected. Due to line loss, the voltage to the batteries is 29.2V. We confirmed this with the USA representative in Florida. There are no settings available on the Dolphin 30 Amp charger to provide this voltage.
Our current Amp/Hr capacity is 1,290 Amp/Hrs (12 X 215 Amp/Hrs divided by 2) The batteries are type 31 made by UltraPower.
As we saw it the 100Amp charger was not sufficient to do the job hence splitting the batteries into 2 banks to 645 Amp/Hrs in each bank. The 100 Amp Dolphin charger still would not do the job as there are more than 400 Amp/Hrs. We then decided to install another battery charger with inverter capabilities. We chose a Magnum MS-E Series Pure Sine Wave Inverter/ Charger Model # MS4124E. This charger provides 105 Amps of charging power. We note that we get 114 Amps when charging (Bonus) The inverter provides us with 220V 50 Hz power to run the appliances on board without having to start the Genset. Cost of unit with remote control, temperature sensor & shipping $2,066.41 USD.
Now we can charge each bank with sufficient Voltage and Amps and it takes half the time when using both chargers. Other stand alone marine chargers were much more expensive and did not have the inverter function. Magnum chargers are mainly made for the trucking industry and do not carry the marine markup that we often see in place. The Magnum charger is a much smarter unit than the Dolpin in that it allows adjustments and tapers off when charging with Dolphin charger. When the Genset output is done to 14 Amps we turn off the Dolphin and leave the Magnum on as it is smarter and charges the batteries properly after the bulk charge.
As a result of the split we installed a Link 20 monitoring system to check the banks. The old Link 10 monitor now does the 12V starting battery. We also had designed another monitoring system by Blue Sea to monitor the output from the genset which has a 30 Amp breaker. When running both chargers the genset is putting out 29 Amps. As you may be aware a fully loaded and working diesel engine likes to be loaded up and will last longer. When charger is half done then we can turn on other 220V systems. This unit also tells us how the genset is working and when it may need repairs to the electrical part of the genset. It also allows us to monitor the draw from individual units on board and we can fix if we see a drop or increase in what the particular system is drawing.
This project took over 3 years to design and understand the Amel systems with a lot of input from people far more knowledgeable than us.
We now use one battery bank every 24 Hrs and then switch to the other bank ( bank 1 on odd days and bank 2 on even days)
BENEFITS
Less time charging the battery banks saving genset hours, fuel and maintenance
Inverter can supply power to 220V/50Hz systems without genset having to be run
When hooked up to shore power either 110V or 220V 50 or 60 hz the charge is run through the Dolphin 30 Amp charger and we then use the inverter to obtain 220V/50hz for our power needs on board. As a note the Air conditioning units require 50hz contrary to what Amel says. We checked with Clima on this and they stated on numerous occasions from different technicians that the capacitors will blow out. (As a side note when we were on shore power in the US we ran the Air Conditioning units and as a result had to replace 12 of the 15 AC capacitors as they were blown and not functioning) As we normally only have 110V/60hz or 220/60hz available we took this route. The added benefit of the Blue Sea unit is that it tells us what type of power is coming on board either 110/220V & 50/60hz
We can monitor what each unit is drawing on both the 24 V and 220V systems IE: Washer/Dryer, AC units, Bow thruster, Winches, Furlers etc
We now have the capability to know what is going into and out of the batteries. With the batteries being able to rest for 24 Hrs, we feel they will last longer and will not require equalization. We did not keep track of all the costs but installation took approx. 20 hours along with a lot of wire.
Magnum Charger $2,066.41, Link 20 $375.15, Blue Sea Monitor $875, 12 Batteries $1,285.48
As a side note the Dolphin 100Amp charger has an equalization setting. When we asked the Florida technician, he then inquired to France and they stated in no uncertain terms by email to not use it. We are on our 3rd Dolphin charger replaced 2 under warranty and 1 due to water damage when the water maker high pressure hose blew. It appears that the charger is set up for charging 2 separate banks but the divider breaks down over time. This was even before we installed the additional charger. Warranty work is dismal as they had to send units to France then on to the manufacturer. Our last warranty unit took over a year to be returned and we currently have one in for warranty since October 2010 and they don't know when we will get it back. The company is owned by REYA and they have some one else build them in Europe we think but can't confirm who. The USA representative is looking for another source to provide warranty work as REYA's contract expired in
December 2010. The Florida representative, Steve, has been more than helpful. His hands are tide and the company has tried on our behalf and numerous others to get info which is not coming back to them. When they ship the units back they go on a pallet as there are so many. No wonder they are looking for a new warranty provider. Who needs this type of customer service.

Paul LaFrance
SV NOMAD SM 362 Currently in St Lucia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





   
   

   
   






                         





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank

Dave_Benjamin
 

One thing I've noted about our Outback inverter/charger is that the inverter is horribly inefficient. For small loads like a computer or recharging power tools, we simply use a portable inverter that plugs into a lighter socket. It uses far less power than the Outback to do the same task. For a larger load, we of course use the Outback, typically when we're under power since the 225a alternator can keep up with demands pretty well.

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, Paul LaFrance <pflafrance@...> wrote:


Kent
The only problem is when inverting is it drains the batteries quickly. ie: can only run the water maker for 1/2 hr before it shuts off due to low battery power.
SV NOMAD SM #362
Currently in St Marteen


Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank

karkauai
 

Does your Magnum inverter work independently of the charger?  ie if you are hooked up to 60 cycle shore power and run the microwave or A/C, are they getting 50Hz or 60 Hz power?
Kent
 


________________________________
From: Paul LaFrance <pflafrance@hotmail.com>
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank

 

Kent
The Magma charger is working great. Been in for 2.5 YRS. The only problem is when inverting is it drains the batteries quickly. ie: can only run the water maker for 1/2 hr before it shuts off due to low battery power. Can run 2 AC units for 2 hrs before low battery.
When charging with both units they put out approx. 190 amps for a short while and as batteries are being charged it decreases quite rapidly. 1/2 hr to replace 100 Amp Hrs.
When hooked up to shore power I run the power through the Dolphin 30 Amp charger. The Magma could also take 60 cycle and convert to 50 cycle.
I will sent photos of the Battery Bank if you can provide an email address so i can attach.
I would not separate the battery bank again as the current chargers can handle the required Amp/Hrs usage replacement

Paul & Sue LaFrance
SV NOMAD SM #362
Currently in St Marteen








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

karkauai
 

Thanks so much Paul.  So those 12 batteries are 120 A-H each in 6 pairs, right?
 
I would really appreciate a pic of the battery crib.  Please send to karkauai(at)yahoo(dot)com.
 
Thanks again.
Kent
SM243
KRISTY


________________________________
From: Paul LaFrance <pflafrance@hotmail.com>
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters


Kent
You are quite correct that my calculations are off. We have a total of 720 Amp Hrs in 12 lead acid batteries.
 
Paul LaFrance

To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
From: karkauai@yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:42:56 -0800
Subject: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters




















 


   
     
     
      Thanks, Richard.  I've been looking at all kinds of chargers and inverters.  It seems that it's hard to find an inverter that doesn't have a charger too.  There are plenty of inverters that have 220 outlets on the machine, but the ones that are built to be incorporated into the boat's systems all seem to be charger/inverters.  The cost of separate charger and inverter appears to be something on the order of $1000 more than a charger/inverter combo.  The Magnum that Paul has is about right with 125A charger and 4000W inverter.  It's a great price but I'd like to hear from others about it's reliability and service record.



I've been looking at his battery bank post, and can't find any group 31 batteries that are rated at more than 110-120 amp hours (UltraPower does have some very large 200-220AHr batteries that weigh 95Kg)...do 215 amp-hr group 31 batteries really exist?  Are they gel cell, amg, or flooded lead acid?  The idea of having 3 times as much battery storage is intriguing, but I'm beginning to think that something isn't right about Paul's calculations???



I'm not worrying too much about 110 AC power.  I have a 1000w inverter at the nav station that supplies my needs for charging electronics, etc, and am using 220 appliances for everything else.



Is it your understanding that even though an inverter produces 50Hz AC power, if there is 60Hz coming into the charger/inverter from shore power, it will pass that through to the appliance rather than use battery power and inverter to produce 50Hz AC power?  Perhaps some of the newer combos have a way to program one way or the other?  The only difference it makes is that when I'm connected to 60Hz shore power and want to run the microwave, I have to disconnect shore power and run off of the inverter to avoid the 60Hz power reaching the appliance.  On my boat, only the microwave and receptacles are powered by the inverter, the other appliances and A/C and water heater must be powered by either the genset or shore power.



Electricity has never been my strong suit, and I'm learning as I go....but this stuff seems more difficult to sort out than it should be.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy

Currently Brunswick, GA







________________________________

From: Richard03801 richard03801@yahoo.com>

To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 10:37 AM

Subject: Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank



 

Hi Kent I would suggest that you buy a Charles or charger that's a smart charger that can accept 9p to 260 V and 50 or 60 Hz this will allow you to charge the battery no matter where you. Second I would buy a inverter and mount it outside the engine room perhaps at the nav station close to the batteries. Normally you will want a battery charger that will charge at an output of least 10% of the amperage required for the battery bank.

Placing a heavy load such as the AC units on the battery bank is a very high use of Amp hours and may cause batteries to overheat on the long-term.

Running the AC units off the gen set or shore power is probably a better solution.

To run your 110 v 60 cycle things you may need to wire the boat for some 110 plugs and run those from an inverter off the battery bank that gives you 110 V 60 cycles and a smoothly.

Good luck smooth sailing



Regards



Richard Piller



Cell 603 767 5330



On Feb 23, 2013, at 13:06, "Kent" mailto:karkauai%40yahoo.com> wrote:



Hi, Paul, et al,

I am looking to replace my old Heart Interface charger/inverter and am interested in the Magnum MS4124E. Your post below is very interesting and I'm thinking of doing something like this on Kristy (SM 243). I'd like to pick your brain a bit.



How do you like your Magnum charger/inverter now that you've had it for a while? Any idea what their service is like?



I currently have 8 105amp-hr series 27 lead acid batteries hooked up in 4 series pairs to give me a 420 amp-hour bank. I charge for about 1 1/2 hrs twice a day. Do you have a pic of your battery crib that shows how you squeeze 12 series 31 batteries in and how you have them wired? A wiring diagram would be great if you have one.



I virtually never use the A/C's unless hooked up to shore power. When I was hooked up to 60 Hz shore power, the old Heart Interface passed the shore power through to the microwave and receptacles, so if I wanted to run the microwave I had to disconnect shore power and use the inverter to get 50Hz 220 power. The washer/dryer, dishwasher, and A/C's are hooked up separately and do not receive power from the battery bank/inverter. I've always run the A/C's with 60Hz shore power, and in 5 years have only replaced one capacitor. I would like to be able to run them off of the inverter, but with my old Heart Interface, the shore power was passed through preferentially over the inverter. Does the Magnum do this or does it produce 50Hz power even when hooked up to 60Hz shore power? Does running the inverter continuously for the A/C's create any problem for the batteries or the inverter?



Thanks for any thoughts you might have. Please, others chime in as well.

Kent

SM 243

KRISTY



--- In mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com, "LaFrance" wrote:

We recently split our battery bank into 2 separate units mainly for charging purposes.
Our vessel is used 12 months of the year and is rarely on shore power. Amel provided the vessel with 12-12V lead acid house batteries with a Dolphin 100 Amp charger and a 30 Amp Dolphin charger. The 30 Amp charger is used for when connected to shore. Our research indicated that a 100 Amp charger is good for charging a battery bank of up to 400 Amp/Hrs. We currently consume 130 amp/hrs per day
The Dolphin charger was not of sufficient capacity to maintain the battery bank at the levels for charging. As per the Trojan Battery Company's charging and maintenance guide the charging voltage daily during absorption should be between 29.2V – 29.6V.(http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/UsersGuide_English.pdf) To accomplish this on the Dolphin, the #2 setting (which gives 29.6V) was selected. Due to line loss, the voltage to the batteries is 29.2V. We confirmed this with the USA representative in Florida. There are no settings available on the Dolphin 30 Amp charger to provide this voltage.
Our current Amp/Hr capacity is 1,290 Amp/Hrs (12 X 215 Amp/Hrs divided by 2) The batteries are type 31 made by UltraPower.
As we saw it the 100Amp charger was not sufficient to do the job hence splitting the batteries into 2 banks to 645 Amp/Hrs in each bank. The 100 Amp Dolphin charger still would not do the job as there are more than 400 Amp/Hrs. We then decided to install another battery charger with inverter capabilities. We chose a Magnum MS-E Series Pure Sine Wave Inverter/ Charger Model # MS4124E. This charger provides 105 Amps of charging power. We note that we get 114 Amps when charging (Bonus) The inverter provides us with 220V 50 Hz power to run the appliances on board without having to start the Genset. Cost of unit with remote control, temperature sensor & shipping $2,066.41 USD.
Now we can charge each bank with sufficient Voltage and Amps and it takes half the time when using both chargers. Other stand alone marine chargers were much more expensive and did not have the inverter function. Magnum chargers are mainly made for the trucking industry and do not carry the marine markup that we often see in place. The Magnum charger is a much smarter unit than the Dolpin in that it allows adjustments and tapers off when charging with Dolphin charger. When the Genset output is done to 14 Amps we turn off the Dolphin and leave the Magnum on as it is smarter and charges the batteries properly after the bulk charge.
As a result of the split we installed a Link 20 monitoring system to check the banks. The old Link 10 monitor now does the 12V starting battery. We also had designed another monitoring system by Blue Sea to monitor the output from the genset which has a 30 Amp breaker. When running both chargers the genset is putting out 29 Amps. As you may be aware a fully loaded and working diesel engine likes to be loaded up and will last longer. When charger is half done then we can turn on other 220V systems. This unit also tells us how the genset is working and when it may need repairs to the electrical part of the genset. It also allows us to monitor the draw from individual units on board and we can fix if we see a drop or increase in what the particular system is drawing.
This project took over 3 years to design and understand the Amel systems with a lot of input from people far more knowledgeable than us.
We now use one battery bank every 24 Hrs and then switch to the other bank ( bank 1 on odd days and bank 2 on even days)
BENEFITS
Less time charging the battery banks saving genset hours, fuel and maintenance
Inverter can supply power to 220V/50Hz systems without genset having to be run
When hooked up to shore power either 110V or 220V 50 or 60 hz the charge is run through the Dolphin 30 Amp charger and we then use the inverter to obtain 220V/50hz for our power needs on board. As a note the Air conditioning units require 50hz contrary to what Amel says. We checked with Clima on this and they stated on numerous occasions from different technicians that the capacitors will blow out. (As a side note when we were on shore power in the US we ran the Air Conditioning units and as a result had to replace 12 of the 15 AC capacitors as they were blown and not functioning) As we normally only have 110V/60hz or 220/60hz available we took this route. The added benefit of the Blue Sea unit is that it tells us what type of power is coming on board either 110/220V & 50/60hz
We can monitor what each unit is drawing on both the 24 V and 220V systems IE: Washer/Dryer, AC units, Bow thruster, Winches, Furlers etc
We now have the capability to know what is going into and out of the batteries. With the batteries being able to rest for 24 Hrs, we feel they will last longer and will not require equalization. We did not keep track of all the costs but installation took approx. 20 hours along with a lot of wire.
Magnum Charger $2,066.41, Link 20 $375.15, Blue Sea Monitor $875, 12 Batteries $1,285.48
As a side note the Dolphin 100Amp charger has an equalization setting. When we asked the Florida technician, he then inquired to France and they stated in no uncertain terms by email to not use it. We are on our 3rd Dolphin charger replaced 2 under warranty and 1 due to water damage when the water maker high pressure hose blew. It appears that the charger is set up for charging 2 separate banks but the divider breaks down over time. This was even before we installed the additional charger. Warranty work is dismal as they had to send units to France then on to the manufacturer. Our last warranty unit took over a year to be returned and we currently have one in for warranty since October 2010 and they don't know when we will get it back. The company is owned by REYA and they have some one else build them in Europe we think but can't confirm who. The USA representative is looking for another source to provide warranty work as REYA's contract expired in
December 2010. The Florida representative, Steve, has been more than helpful. His hands are tide and the company has tried on our behalf and numerous others to get info which is not coming back to them. When they ship the units back they go on a pallet as there are so many. No wonder they are looking for a new warranty provider. Who needs this type of customer service.

Paul LaFrance
SV NOMAD SM 362 Currently in St Lucia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









   
   

   
   






                         

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters

Paul LaFrance <pflafrance@...>
 

Kent
You are quite correct that my calculations are off. We have a total of 720 Amp Hrs in 12 lead acid batteries.

Paul LaFrance

To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
From: karkauai@yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:42:56 -0800
Subject: [Amel] Battery Chargers and Inverters


























Thanks, Richard. I've been looking at all kinds of chargers and inverters. It seems that it's hard to find an inverter that doesn't have a charger too. There are plenty of inverters that have 220 outlets on the machine, but the ones that are built to be incorporated into the boat's systems all seem to be charger/inverters. The cost of separate charger and inverter appears to be something on the order of $1000 more than a charger/inverter combo. The Magnum that Paul has is about right with 125A charger and 4000W inverter. It's a great price but I'd like to hear from others about it's reliability and service record.



I've been looking at his battery bank post, and can't find any group 31 batteries that are rated at more than 110-120 amp hours (UltraPower does have some very large 200-220AHr batteries that weigh 95Kg)...do 215 amp-hr group 31 batteries really exist? Are they gel cell, amg, or flooded lead acid? The idea of having 3 times as much battery storage is intriguing, but I'm beginning to think that something isn't right about Paul's calculations???



I'm not worrying too much about 110 AC power. I have a 1000w inverter at the nav station that supplies my needs for charging electronics, etc, and am using 220 appliances for everything else.



Is it your understanding that even though an inverter produces 50Hz AC power, if there is 60Hz coming into the charger/inverter from shore power, it will pass that through to the appliance rather than use battery power and inverter to produce 50Hz AC power? Perhaps some of the newer combos have a way to program one way or the other? The only difference it makes is that when I'm connected to 60Hz shore power and want to run the microwave, I have to disconnect shore power and run off of the inverter to avoid the 60Hz power reaching the appliance. On my boat, only the microwave and receptacles are powered by the inverter, the other appliances and A/C and water heater must be powered by either the genset or shore power.



Electricity has never been my strong suit, and I'm learning as I go....but this stuff seems more difficult to sort out than it should be.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy

Currently Brunswick, GA







________________________________

From: Richard03801 richard03801@yahoo.com>

To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 10:37 AM

Subject: Re: [Amel] Re: Splitting The Battery Bank





Hi Kent I would suggest that you buy a Charles or charger that's a smart charger that can accept 9p to 260 V and 50 or 60 Hz this will allow you to charge the battery no matter where you. Second I would buy a inverter and mount it outside the engine room perhaps at the nav station close to the batteries. Normally you will want a battery charger that will charge at an output of least 10% of the amperage required for the battery bank.

Placing a heavy load such as the AC units on the battery bank is a very high use of Amp hours and may cause batteries to overheat on the long-term.

Running the AC units off the gen set or shore power is probably a better solution.

To run your 110 v 60 cycle things you may need to wire the boat for some 110 plugs and run those from an inverter off the battery bank that gives you 110 V 60 cycles and a smoothly.

Good luck smooth sailing



Regards



Richard Piller



Cell 603 767 5330

On Feb 23, 2013, at 13:06, "Kent" mailto:karkauai%40yahoo.com> wrote:



Hi, Paul, et al,

I am looking to replace my old Heart Interface charger/inverter and am interested in the Magnum MS4124E. Your post below is very interesting and I'm thinking of doing something like this on Kristy (SM 243). I'd like to pick your brain a bit.



How do you like your Magnum charger/inverter now that you've had it for a while? Any idea what their service is like?



I currently have 8 105amp-hr series 27 lead acid batteries hooked up in 4 series pairs to give me a 420 amp-hour bank. I charge for about 1 1/2 hrs twice a day. Do you have a pic of your battery crib that shows how you squeeze 12 series 31 batteries in and how you have them wired? A wiring diagram would be great if you have one.



I virtually never use the A/C's unless hooked up to shore power. When I was hooked up to 60 Hz shore power, the old Heart Interface passed the shore power through to the microwave and receptacles, so if I wanted to run the microwave I had to disconnect shore power and use the inverter to get 50Hz 220 power. The washer/dryer, dishwasher, and A/C's are hooked up separately and do not receive power from the battery bank/inverter. I've always run the A/C's with 60Hz shore power, and in 5 years have only replaced one capacitor. I would like to be able to run them off of the inverter, but with my old Heart Interface, the shore power was passed through preferentially over the inverter. Does the Magnum do this or does it produce 50Hz power even when hooked up to 60Hz shore power? Does running the inverter continuously for the A/C's create any problem for the batteries or the inverter?



Thanks for any thoughts you might have. Please, others chime in as well.

Kent

SM 243

KRISTY



--- In mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com, "LaFrance" wrote:

We recently split our battery bank into 2 separate units mainly for charging purposes.
Our vessel is used 12 months of the year and is rarely on shore power. Amel provided the vessel with 12-12V lead acid house batteries with a Dolphin 100 Amp charger and a 30 Amp Dolphin charger. The 30 Amp charger is used for when connected to shore. Our research indicated that a 100 Amp charger is good for charging a battery bank of up to 400 Amp/Hrs. We currently consume 130 amp/hrs per day
The Dolphin charger was not of sufficient capacity to maintain the battery bank at the levels for charging. As per the Trojan Battery Company's charging and maintenance guide the charging voltage daily during absorption should be between 29.2V 29.6V.(http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/UsersGuide_English.pdf) To accomplish this on the Dolphin, the #2 setting (which gives 29.6V) was selected. Due to line loss, the voltage to the batteries is 29.2V. We confirmed this with the USA representative in Florida. There are no settings available on the Dolphin 30 Amp charger to provide this voltage.
Our current Amp/Hr capacity is 1,290 Amp/Hrs (12 X 215 Amp/Hrs divided by 2) The batteries are type 31 made by UltraPower.
As we saw it the 100Amp charger was not sufficient to do the job hence splitting the batteries into 2 banks to 645 Amp/Hrs in each bank. The 100 Amp Dolphin charger still would not do the job as there are more than 400 Amp/Hrs. We then decided to install another battery charger with inverter capabilities. We chose a Magnum MS-E Series Pure Sine Wave Inverter/ Charger Model # MS4124E. This charger provides 105 Amps of charging power. We note that we get 114 Amps when charging (Bonus) The inverter provides us with 220V 50 Hz power to run the appliances on board without having to start the Genset. Cost of unit with remote control, temperature sensor & shipping $2,066.41 USD.
Now we can charge each bank with sufficient Voltage and Amps and it takes half the time when using both chargers. Other stand alone marine chargers were much more expensive and did not have the inverter function. Magnum chargers are mainly made for the trucking industry and do not carry the marine markup that we often see in place. The Magnum charger is a much smarter unit than the Dolpin in that it allows adjustments and tapers off when charging with Dolphin charger. When the Genset output is done to 14 Amps we turn off the Dolphin and leave the Magnum on as it is smarter and charges the batteries properly after the bulk charge.
As a result of the split we installed a Link 20 monitoring system to check the banks. The old Link 10 monitor now does the 12V starting battery. We also had designed another monitoring system by Blue Sea to monitor the output from the genset which has a 30 Amp breaker. When running both chargers the genset is putting out 29 Amps. As you may be aware a fully loaded and working diesel engine likes to be loaded up and will last longer. When charger is half done then we can turn on other 220V systems. This unit also tells us how the genset is working and when it may need repairs to the electrical part of the genset. It also allows us to monitor the draw from individual units on board and we can fix if we see a drop or increase in what the particular system is drawing.
This project took over 3 years to design and understand the Amel systems with a lot of input from people far more knowledgeable than us.
We now use one battery bank every 24 Hrs and then switch to the other bank ( bank 1 on odd days and bank 2 on even days)
BENEFITS
Less time charging the battery banks saving genset hours, fuel and maintenance
Inverter can supply power to 220V/50Hz systems without genset having to be run
When hooked up to shore power either 110V or 220V 50 or 60 hz the charge is run through the Dolphin 30 Amp charger and we then use the inverter to obtain 220V/50hz for our power needs on board. As a note the Air conditioning units require 50hz contrary to what Amel says. We checked with Clima on this and they stated on numerous occasions from different technicians that the capacitors will blow out. (As a side note when we were on shore power in the US we ran the Air Conditioning units and as a result had to replace 12 of the 15 AC capacitors as they were blown and not functioning) As we normally only have 110V/60hz or 220/60hz available we took this route. The added benefit of the Blue Sea unit is that it tells us what type of power is coming on board either 110/220V & 50/60hz
We can monitor what each unit is drawing on both the 24 V and 220V systems IE: Washer/Dryer, AC units, Bow thruster, Winches, Furlers etc
We now have the capability to know what is going into and out of the batteries. With the batteries being able to rest for 24 Hrs, we feel they will last longer and will not require equalization. We did not keep track of all the costs but installation took approx. 20 hours along with a lot of wire.
Magnum Charger $2,066.41, Link 20 $375.15, Blue Sea Monitor $875, 12 Batteries $1,285.48
As a side note the Dolphin 100Amp charger has an equalization setting. When we asked the Florida technician, he then inquired to France and they stated in no uncertain terms by email to not use it. We are on our 3rd Dolphin charger replaced 2 under warranty and 1 due to water damage when the water maker high pressure hose blew. It appears that the charger is set up for charging 2 separate banks but the divider breaks down over time. This was even before we installed the additional charger. Warranty work is dismal as they had to send units to France then on to the manufacturer. Our last warranty unit took over a year to be returned and we currently have one in for warranty since October 2010 and they don't know when we will get it back. The company is owned by REYA and they have some one else build them in Europe we think but can't confirm who. The USA representative is looking for another source to provide warranty work as REYA's contract expired in
December 2010. The Florida representative, Steve, has been more than helpful. His hands are tide and the company has tried on our behalf and numerous others to get info which is not coming back to them. When they ship the units back they go on a pallet as there are so many. No wonder they are looking for a new warranty provider. Who needs this type of customer service.

Paul LaFrance
SV NOMAD SM 362 Currently in St Lucia


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