I see no point is removing the pictures. I totally agree with other
members reasoning for keeping the pictures and the forum open to wide
discussion on Amel and issues that can help Amel Owners.

I do think that, posting unrelated pictures of damage in Grenada (or
any other unrelated subject for that matter) is non conducive,
because it distracts us from the main discussion and uses up valuable
space allotted to our Group. Besides there are tons of websites where
this pictures have already been published.

The rationale employed by those wanting the pictures removed sounded
more like censorship, which I can't agree with.

I think we can all learn from this and many other experiences
relating to this and other incidents.
We definitely need more participation. Too bad that it takes
something like this to get people interested.

Fair Winds and good weekend to all,
Alex Paquin

Richard, I support the proposition that this website is is to provide information of all sorts, without fear or favour, to do with Amel. For adverts, click onto amel.fr or read Joel Potter's endlessly informative adverts in Cruising World.
We have had Amels for nearly 16 years, a Sharki then a Maramu and now an SM .We are in Chile, about to sail to Argentina via the Horn and then cruise over the next two years up the Brazilian coast. We wouldn't have any other boat. We had plans to leave our boat ashore in Grenada in May 2006!Will now go to Trinidad, but as someone has already commented on this site, if an Ivan comes overhead you are in the lap of the Gods and it probably wouldnt matter if you were in a Sherman tank. Ian and Judy Jenkins, Pen Azen, Chile

From: "closereach" <closereach@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Photos of damaged Amels - remove or not?
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 05:51:59 -0000



What do you--the members that make up this Forum--want? So far four
owners have spoken up: two to remove the photos; two to keep the
photos. This is your forum; if you have an opinion about this please
speak up!

I know why I started this Forum 3 years ago: to share knowledge about
these boats with other owners out there. The good. The bad. Seeing
photos of hurricane damaged Amels hasn't changed my opinion about
these great yachts. In fact, by posting the photos we--again--learned
something very interesting about our manufacturer. One of our members
reports that Amel arranged for a barge to pull 'their' boats out of
the water and to transport the damaged boats back to La Rochelle.
Hmmm. Has Swan or HR or Oyster gone that far?

I too am troubled by removing these photos. Where could this lead? To
censoring anything negative that comes up? We all have spent
considerable sums purchasing these yachts--could it be that we are so
concerned on resale value that we don't want any flaws or negative
findings to get 'out there'?

Some could say there was nothing to learn from these photos--but
morbid fascination. But is that true? Perhaps the owner the sunk
Mango/Maramu/Sharki will tell us if he/she had the watertight doors
shut tight or not. I learned that even putting the boats on the hard
didn't remove the boats from danger.

That's where I sit? What about you?

Richard Tate
SM #5 "Spice"







Yahoo! Groups Links

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

Just to give the controversy about above subject a positive twist:
My SM 143 "GIGUE" (as well as a SM of my friend) survived Ivan in
Grenada on the hard (St. Davids Harbor) without a scratch - at least
this is what I was told by the yard, my electrician and my insurance
agency. Next week I will convince myself that the miracle actually
happened.
Still, it would be wrong to attribute this to the fact that
it concerns an Amel yacht and in my opinion the same holds true for
the sunken SM pictured. I believe the survival of my boat has to do
with the location of the yard, the size and weight of the boat, it's
souroundings (big boats) and the way it was stored.
Frankly I was irritated and astonished when I read the request to
remove the pictures and I have problems to understand the reasoning.
What I would be most interested however to learn is why exactly the
boat went aground - maybe we all could benefit and then we might be
thankful that this picture was posted.
Rainer Bichlbauer

I agree with Richard, the purpose of the site must be to share experiences and seek advice, good or bad. To censor items that show up shortcomings and design errors would be totally unacceptable and would in my opinion render the site useless. Being a proud owner of a Santorin for several years and having visited the factory I am totally convinced of the outstanding design and build quality of Amel. We do not need a sanitised view of our boats, in my opinion good open debate can only in the long term lead to an even better product.

Happy Sails

Dennis Woods

Khamsin B

I got from Amel 5 parts to replace the seals on the bow thruster.
Since I have never done this before myself I am not sure how to
position those parts. My assumption is:
1. Two of the foam rubber rings be placed outside the hull on the
shaft of the bow thruster.
2. One of the foam rubber rings to be placed inside the hull on the
shaft.
3. The large rubber gasket (ring) to be placed where the shaft
penetrates the hull - but wich side upside???
4. And there is a small rubber gasket (ring)and I have no clue were
to put it?
If there is anyone who knows how to do it I would be very thankful
for the relevant information.
Rainer Bichlbauer

I am glad you call for opinion. Like others I have been surprised by the
quick removal of the pictures.
In my humble view I do not see anything morbid here, but rather informative.
Not only for those who had a boat there, but for all of us looking for a safe
place at this time of the year. This was an eye opener and definitely had its
place in this forum. And in no way I believe it was counterproductive for Amel
or Amel owners.
This year my boat was safely kept in Greece, another sailing paradise, but it
could have been there. I will think twice next time.
Fair wind to all, and keep this forum alive.
G P, Greenlight, Santorin 132

What do you--the members that make up this Forum--want? So far four
owners have spoken up: two to remove the photos; two to keep the
photos. This is your forum; if you have an opinion about this please
speak up!

I know why I started this Forum 3 years ago: to share knowledge about
these boats with other owners out there. The good. The bad. Seeing
photos of hurricane damaged Amels hasn't changed my opinion about
these great yachts. In fact, by posting the photos we--again--learned
something very interesting about our manufacturer. One of our members
reports that Amel arranged for a barge to pull 'their' boats out of
the water and to transport the damaged boats back to La Rochelle.
Hmmm. Has Swan or HR or Oyster gone that far?

I too am troubled by removing these photos. Where could this lead? To
censoring anything negative that comes up? We all have spent
considerable sums purchasing these yachts--could it be that we are so
concerned on resale value that we don't want any flaws or negative
findings to get 'out there'?

Some could say there was nothing to learn from these photos--but
morbid fascination. But is that true? Perhaps the owner the sunk
Mango/Maramu/Sharki will tell us if he/she had the watertight doors
shut tight or not. I learned that even putting the boats on the hard
didn't remove the boats from danger.

That's where I sit? What about you?

Richard Tate
SM #5 "Spice"

I too am a little distressed that the photo's were removed. Was it
because of limited space for photos and these photos could be found
elsewhere? I have since searched out a number of other photos of the
sad situation in Grenada. My Amel was in one of those yards two
years ago for hurricane season and I felt smug and secure that I was
outside the hurricane belt. This was really a wake up call for me.
Liahona was in a canal in Ft. Lauderdale but that didn't keep me from
sweating bullets during Francis, Ivan, and Jeanne.

Bottom line is that if there is a direct hit of a category 5
hurricane there is little that anyone can do. I was surprised,
howevere, to see a lot of sails and even dinghys on boats. I thought
it was standard practice to take everything down to minimize windage
etc.

I count many in Grenada as good friends and I feel genuine pain for
their losses as well as the losses of everyone else that has suffered
during this active hurricane season.

Amel has always been a quality company, in my opinion there are none
better when it comes to owner service. I hope this forum will remain
a place where both good points and bad points of view can be
tolerated.

God bless those who have suffered losses, Gary Silver SM # 335
Liahona

I'm very sorry to see that the politically correct diktat has reached this forum. May I remind to those who gets so easily offended by the naked truth that sailing carries some objective risks. Its is better to be prepared...... In the case of Ivan a good set of picture is better than a pontoon forum....
What is wrong in showing some damaged Amel? Is this forum not about Amel? Does it damage the image of the yard????? I don't think so as any sensible sailor who has gone through some real rough weather knows that the sea can be incredibly powerful. Thus,the damaged occurred by the Amel's yacht are not worrying at all given the magnitude of Ivan. Even the Titanic went down.......... As far as I understand the main purpose of this forum is to share any kind of experience, good or bad about Amel's yachts, it is not mean to be an advertising center for Amel..........Despite the picture I would still prefer to face a Hurricane in my SM than in most of the similar yachts available on the market.
One last question? Does this means that from today onwards only good things about our beloved yachts can be said on this forum?
Regards to all

----Original Message Follows----
From: "closereach" <closereach@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Photos removed
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:41:22 -0000


Eric, Jerome and Amel owners,
Photos of damaged Amels have been removed for this site. If anyone
wants to see how Ivan ravaged Grenada, the Seven Seas Cruising
Association has a link to several websites loaded with photos. Go to
http://www.ssca.org

_________________________________________________________________
Download MSN Messenger emoticons and display pictures. http://ilovemessenger.msn.com/?mkt=en-sg

You must understand that there were 20 foot waves crashing into that
marina. I think that Amel was flung in the air and landed on another
boat and that is how it was holed. In other cases catamarans were
flying trough the air and holed boats. That is how a 72' custom Farr
was sunk. At another marina a mid 80s Halberg rassy 42 was holed and
sunk as well as a hans Christian, Yet righ next to these boats was an
Oday 35 that survived quite well!

V C


--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Keesling"
<tkeesling@m...> wrote:

Could you comment on your observations of the damage to the Amels

vs. the

others? For those of us that have not had a factory tour of all

the major

offshore manufactures, we sadly observed that you can learn a lot

about boat

construction when they are tossed about and put into piles after a
hurricane. This was quite evident after hurricane Fran hit the NC
coast...but we had a high proportion of sport fisherman, I/O

cruisers, etc.

I am curious in the one photo of why the Amel sank...especially

given the

water tight bulkheads (doors open...leak unattended for several

days?) I am

in the process of looking for a Santorin...and regretfully one

doesn't get

to do a damage comparison until these catastrophic weather events

occur.

Regards,

Tom Keesling
____________________________________

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:48:08 -0000
From: asm283
Subject: Amels in Grenada


Hello

My Super Maramu Wanderer was in Grenada during Hurricane Ivan. She
was on the hard in Spice Island marina. She sustained moderate
damage. Lost the Main Mast, rudder damage, bent chainplates and

water

got inside the boat. I did well as compared to other Super Maramus.

I

also did well as compared to other Oysters, Morris,halbergs and
Swans. I have pictures of stanctions going trough 1.3mm Oysters and
sunk 72' swan, Halbergs with no rigs, benetaus without keels.


Wanderer@u...

Eric, Jerome and Amel owners,
Photos of damaged Amels have been removed for this site. If anyone
wants to see how Ivan ravaged Grenada, the Seven Seas Cruising
Association has a link to several websites loaded with photos. Go to
http://www.ssca.org

I am heading south to St Thomas 11/1/04 and was looking to just say hi to
someone on the ssb on the way down.

Fair winds,

Eric

SM 376 kimberlite



_____

From: jfolino901 [mailto:jfolino901@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:06 AM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] SULAJON SM 347 NANNY CAY TORTOLA




--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "eric freedman"
<kimberlite@o...> wrote:

Hi
is anyone heading to the caribbean from the northeast in the next
few weeks?
fair winds,
eric
s/m 376 kimberlite

ERIC,
YES ON 11/14 I WILL BE MAKING MY FIRST TRIP THIS SEASON. HOW MAY I
HELP YOU?
JOHN






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Hi,

I was curious as to the name of the boat shown sunken on the website, as I
was afraid it belonged to one of my friends.

I agree that showing other peoples suffering does no good to either them or
the Fine name of Amel.

I would for one would like to see the photos removed from the website.



I am glad that Amel sent a barge to the island to help out our brother and
sister Amel owners.

I revel in the Quality of my Amel and am proud to know Jean-Jacques, Joel
Potter, and the rest of the Amel Family.

Fair winds,

Eric Freedman

SM 376 Kimberlite





_____

From: closereach [mailto:closereach@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 11:20 AM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Amels In Grenada during Ivan - pics posted




Jerome,

If a majority of members that respond want these photos removed, I
will delete them. I don't understand the publicity issue--Ivan
damaged all makes and kinds of yachts. However, if members are
sensitive in seeing damaged Amels, I'll delete the photos.

Richard

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, Jérôme LE CONTE
<jeromeleconte@c...> wrote:

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "closereach"
<closereach@y...> wrote:

Pics of Amels affected by hurricane Ivan have been uploaded in
Photos section.

I really do not see why you posted the photo. It is sad and does

not

give any info : the name of the boat is not even indicated,

neither

the exact location. Morbidity is not the usual tone of this forum.
Plus it is bad publicity for AMEL: not very palatable for the Amel
lovers we are.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Could you comment on your observations of the damage to the Amels vs. the
others? For those of us that have not had a factory tour of all the major
offshore manufactures, we sadly observed that you can learn a lot about boat
construction when they are tossed about and put into piles after a
hurricane. This was quite evident after hurricane Fran hit the NC
coast...but we had a high proportion of sport fisherman, I/O cruisers, etc.
I am curious in the one photo of why the Amel sank...especially given the
water tight bulkheads (doors open...leak unattended for several days?) I am
in the process of looking for a Santorin...and regretfully one doesn't get
to do a damage comparison until these catastrophic weather events occur.

Regards,

Tom Keesling
____________________________________

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:48:08 -0000
From: asm283
Subject: Amels in Grenada


Hello

My Super Maramu Wanderer was in Grenada during Hurricane Ivan. She
was on the hard in Spice Island marina. She sustained moderate
damage. Lost the Main Mast, rudder damage, bent chainplates and water
got inside the boat. I did well as compared to other Super Maramus. I
also did well as compared to other Oysters, Morris,halbergs and
Swans. I have pictures of stanctions going trough 1.3mm Oysters and
sunk 72' swan, Halbergs with no rigs, benetaus without keels.


Wanderer@uuplus.com

Jerome,

If a majority of members that respond want these photos removed, I
will delete them. I don't understand the publicity issue--Ivan
damaged all makes and kinds of yachts. However, if members are
sensitive in seeing damaged Amels, I'll delete the photos.

Richard

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, Jérôme LE CONTE
<jeromeleconte@c...> wrote:

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "closereach"
<closereach@y...> wrote:

Pics of Amels affected by hurricane Ivan have been uploaded in
Photos section.

I really do not see why you posted the photo. It is sad and does

not

give any info : the name of the boat is not even indicated,

neither

the exact location. Morbidity is not the usual tone of this forum.
Plus it is bad publicity for AMEL: not very palatable for the Amel
lovers we are.

Eric,

There's a new folder with several photos. Another member posted the
lone photo of the Mango/Maramu/Sharki (not a Super Maramu).

Richard

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, kimberlite <kimberlite@o...>
wrote:

Hi,

Did you post just one photo?

Do you know the name of the yacht?

Fair winds,

Eric

s/m 376 Kimberlite

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "closereach"
<closereach@y...> wrote:

Pics of Amels affected by hurricane Ivan have been uploaded in
Photos section.

I really do not see why you posted the photo. It is sad and does not
give any info : the name of the boat is not even indicated, neither
the exact location. Morbidity is not the usual tone of this forum.
Plus it is bad publicity for AMEL: not very palatable for the Amel
lovers we are.

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "eric freedman"
<kimberlite@o...> wrote:

Hi
is anyone heading to the caribbean from the northeast in the next
few weeks?
fair winds,
eric
s/m 376 kimberlite

ERIC,
YES ON 11/14 I WILL BE MAKING MY FIRST TRIP THIS SEASON. HOW MAY I
HELP YOU?
JOHN

Hi
is anyone heading to the caribbean from the northeast in the next
few weeks?
fair winds,
eric
s/m 376 kimberlite

Hi,

Did you post just one photo?

Do you know the name of the yacht?

Fair winds,

Eric

s/m 376 Kimberlite





_____

From: closereach [mailto:closereach@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 4:13 PM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Amels In Grenada during Ivan - pics posted




Pics of Amels affected by hurricane Ivan have been uploaded in
Photos section.








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