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Nomad- sails

sailormon <kimberlite@...>
 

Hi Nomad,

I heard from North sails SXM that they made sails for you . I would like to discuss them backchannel.

Gavin at FKG asked to look at Kimberlites head foil. Are you having a problem?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite SM 376

 

Kimberlite@...

 
Re: Main Sail Roller Battens

Jose Venegas
 

I hope this will end the already long discussion and explain the reasoning behind my willingness to try something different from vertical battens on my SM.

My experience as a mechanical engineer is only 40 years but I have always evaluated critically every modification I have made to my boats.  In principle, I see the vertical battens as a bad design waiting for disasters like those experienced by Michael.   I do understand that sail makers are by definition conservative and thus Dave’s skepticism.  Sails have been around for thousands of years and worked well with minimal changes.  Adding new features always brings the risk for failures and, if I made sails for a living, I would also be skeptical and conservative.


However I am not sure these roller-battens have been used in the manner we plan to do it. I can see how the roller battens, installed as full battens and perpendicular to the mast as shown in the website, can have problems.  Using them like that in addition to making wider the folded sail, they exacerbate the problem brought up by Dave : as the sail is furled, each turn will make incremental motions of the inner part of the stainless batten relative to the outer part.  The more turns the more this happen and the greater the force the tip of the inner half of the batten will do against the batten cover.

By putting the roller battens perpendicular to the leach it makes them shorter than if they were placed horizontal or vertical,  and thus they will have less turns and make the furled sail less wide.  In addition, when placed perpendicular to the leach with a length such that only 40% of them extends over the leach, the sail damage when battens are too short will be prevented. More important, the widening of the furled sail will be reduced because the battens will roll in a corkscrew shape.  I am also expecting that they may reduce the likelihood of the leach folding on itself and jamming the sail when it is furled with little wind.

In any case I am willing to take the chance, knowing that if I am wrong it is for reasons that I am still not aware of.  So far Dave’s skepticisms has been very helpful  to identify key potential problems and for formulating solutions. Unless he or any other person identifies additional problems with the roller-batten idea I will proceed with the project, keep an eye on the battens, and will keep you posted on my progress or failure.


Jose
Mainsail battens

Anne and John Hollamby <annejohnholl@...>
 

Hello Craig,
It was interesting to find that when I specified vertical battens for a new mainsail on my Oyster in the late nineties the sailmaker, Doyles in New Zealand, told me that when they laid my old mainsail on top of the new one with vertical battens, they found the new one was 7% bigger. It was very good and there were no problems
So far as I know the purchaser of that boat in 2000 found it good for many years when he circumnavigated over a number of years.
Similarly the new mainsail I had made by Lee Sails in Hong Kong has been excellent although I should add that I ordered it through a Maltese sailmaker who also fitted the new sails when they came and he made some small adjustments  at my request.
 
                                Best wishes,   Anne and John, Bali Hai,  SM 319,  for sale in Malta  

Re: Main Sail Roller Battens

Craig Briggs
 

Hi Jose,
Just another data point for your experiment is that the fellows that developed the Flattens I posted about last week said they are installed at Luff-90 - perpendicular to the Luff, not the Leach. That way when they roll up they actually make the sail roll tighter - like the measuring tape analogy you used wherein the tape rolls up on itself, not crosswise to its natural cupped shape.  Anyway, will follow with great interest - sounds like a good idea, notwithstanding our resident sailmaker's doubts. Keep us posted.
Cheers,
Craig
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Jordan Sea Drogue-video in a hurricane

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Eric,

Done

Bill

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 7:56 AM, sailormon kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill,

Would you please email me the copy of the Onan heat exchanger grounding strap parts page. I can’t print it out and mine is grounded differently.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite SM 376

 

Kimberlite@...

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 1:37 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Jordan Sea Drogue-video in a hurricane

 

 

Eric,

Interesting.  I assume if you have too few cones, the angle to the waves increases above 20 to 30 degrees. Am I correct?

BTW, we have a drogue exactly like yours. It has never been wet...yet.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
sent from my tablet

On Nov 26, 2014 3:34 AM, "sailormon kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Dear Jean-Pierre,

I can’t really explain what it is like on a drogue but you do not slide down the back of a wave. Imagine a duck sitting on the water . The duck just goes

up and down the waves. The waves just run under the boat and you never have to worry about pitch poling or slamming backwards down a have. I hope you never have to experience it but it is quite interesting to watch the drogue in action and experience the smooth ride.

You will probably be sitting at about 20-30 degrees to the waves due to the windage on the boat.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite SM 376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:40 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Jordan Sea Drogue-video in a hurricane

 

 

Dear Eric,

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

I have Davits, solar panels and HF whip antenna installed on the stern… obviously, I will have to engineer a few “boat specific” changes to make it work well.  I will be on the boat in 3 weeks.

 

Your point is taken regarding the 147 cones … I will go for that.  I still dont want to go downhill astern on the back side of the wave… :-)  

 

Anecdote: A friend was a tank commander in the past and if they missed a downshift (before auto trans in tanks) when going uphill, then the tank would start moving backwards down the hill… they did not like that as the brakes were not man enough to stop the beast … he called it “Mexican overdrive” and said it was not fun!

 

Many thanks,

 

Jean-Pierre Germain

Eleuthera SM007

 

 

On 25 Nov 2014, at 02:39, sailormon kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

 

Dear Jean-Pierre,

I found that the best attachment points on the boat are the stern cleats.

I do not understand why you would want the bridles attached to the mid ship cleats. When you need to recover the drogue it is quite easy using a rolling hitch.

Have the sailmaker splice 2 large eyes in the end of the bridle to slip over the stern cleats.

You will need some heavy duty chay missed a shift fe gear for the stern chocks and where the bridle passes the backstays. You should also fabricate a block of wood with some bolts to cover the stern chocks when recovering the drogue as the chocks left alone will tear up the parachutes.

 

You will need at least 3 people to recover the drogue. One at the stern to guide the drogue, one on the winch , hand tailing and making sure the horn of the primary winch does not tear the cones, and a third person to press the winch button.

 

Recovering the drogue must be done slowly and stopping the winch frequently. If not the motor will over heat and the internal override will shut off the winch motor.

 

With respect to the number of cones I would go with at least 147 cones I have 156 cones on mine.

We were doing about 3 ½ knots in 65-100 knots of wind. I think with a lesser number of cones you would be going too fast.

This was in 50-60 foot seas.

As a PS this is not the first time we used the drogue.

 

See this video of a boat 150 miles closer to the coast than we were .

Almost at the end of the video you will see the helicopter just touch the top of a 45 foot wave. 7 boats were rescued in this hurricane with 1 fatality. Scroll down to see the video.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite SM 376

 

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 9:23 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Jordan Sea Drogue

 

 

Hello Gang,

 

I am about to purchase this equipment.  Some customisation of the basic design is planned; I want the bridle attached at the mid ship cleats, then running aft for a turn on the aft cleats then into fairleads and astern to the drogue.

 

Has anyone done it this way before?  Anyone using the built in massive lift points?  All chafe points lined with heavy leather patches.

 

I will not go to the recommended full number of cones but use a drogue with 139 cones instead of the 147 cone unit. I would rather maintain more forward speed running down the face of a wave than stop at the crest and start a rearwards motion on the aft face.  Any comments on my reasoning?

 

Many thanks,

 

 

Jean-Pierre Germain

SY Eleuthera SM007

 

 

 

Jean-Pierre Germain,
Chief Pilot, Cozuro Limited,
+44 7551 211 511
jp.germain@...
jp.germain@...

 
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Jordan Sea Drogue-video in a hurricane

sailormon <kimberlite@...>
 

Hi Bill,

Would you please email me the copy of the Onan heat exchanger grounding strap parts page. I can’t print it out and mine is grounded differently.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite SM 376

 

Kimberlite@...

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 1:37 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Jordan Sea Drogue-video in a hurricane

 

 

Eric,

Interesting.  I assume if you have too few cones, the angle to the waves increases above 20 to 30 degrees. Am I correct?

BTW, we have a drogue exactly like yours. It has never been wet...yet.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
sent from my tablet

On Nov 26, 2014 3:34 AM, "sailormon kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Dear Jean-Pierre,

I can’t really explain what it is like on a drogue but you do not slide down the back of a wave. Imagine a duck sitting on the water . The duck just goes

up and down the waves. The waves just run under the boat and you never have to worry about pitch poling or slamming backwards down a have. I hope you never have to experience it but it is quite interesting to watch the drogue in action and experience the smooth ride.

You will probably be sitting at about 20-30 degrees to the waves due to the windage on the boat.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite SM 376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:40 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Jordan Sea Drogue-video in a hurricane

 

 

Dear Eric,

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

I have Davits, solar panels and HF whip antenna installed on the stern… obviously, I will have to engineer a few “boat specific” changes to make it work well.  I will be on the boat in 3 weeks.

 

Your point is taken regarding the 147 cones … I will go for that.  I still dont want to go downhill astern on the back side of the wave… :-)  

 

Anecdote: A friend was a tank commander in the past and if they missed a downshift (before auto trans in tanks) when going uphill, then the tank would start moving backwards down the hill… they did not like that as the brakes were not man enough to stop the beast … he called it “Mexican overdrive” and said it was not fun!

 

Many thanks,

 

Jean-Pierre Germain

Eleuthera SM007

 

 

On 25 Nov 2014, at 02:39, sailormon kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

 

Dear Jean-Pierre,

I found that the best attachment points on the boat are the stern cleats.

I do not understand why you would want the bridles attached to the mid ship cleats. When you need to recover the drogue it is quite easy using a rolling hitch.

Have the sailmaker splice 2 large eyes in the end of the bridle to slip over the stern cleats.

You will need some heavy duty chay missed a shift fe gear for the stern chocks and where the bridle passes the backstays. You should also fabricate a block of wood with some bolts to cover the stern chocks when recovering the drogue as the chocks left alone will tear up the parachutes.

 

You will need at least 3 people to recover the drogue. One at the stern to guide the drogue, one on the winch , hand tailing and making sure the horn of the primary winch does not tear the cones, and a third person to press the winch button.

 

Recovering the drogue must be done slowly and stopping the winch frequently. If not the motor will over heat and the internal override will shut off the winch motor.

 

With respect to the number of cones I would go with at least 147 cones I have 156 cones on mine.

We were doing about 3 ½ knots in 65-100 knots of wind. I think with a lesser number of cones you would be going too fast.

This was in 50-60 foot seas.

As a PS this is not the first time we used the drogue.

 

See this video of a boat 150 miles closer to the coast than we were .

Almost at the end of the video you will see the helicopter just touch the top of a 45 foot wave. 7 boats were rescued in this hurricane with 1 fatality. Scroll down to see the video.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite SM 376

 

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 9:23 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Jordan Sea Drogue

 

 

Hello Gang,

 

I am about to purchase this equipment.  Some customisation of the basic design is planned; I want the bridle attached at the mid ship cleats, then running aft for a turn on the aft cleats then into fairleads and astern to the drogue.

 

Has anyone done it this way before?  Anyone using the built in massive lift points?  All chafe points lined with heavy leather patches.

 

I will not go to the recommended full number of cones but use a drogue with 139 cones instead of the 147 cone unit. I would rather maintain more forward speed running down the face of a wave than stop at the crest and start a rearwards motion on the aft face.  Any comments on my reasoning?

 

Many thanks,

 

 

Jean-Pierre Germain

SY Eleuthera SM007

 

 

 

Jean-Pierre Germain,
Chief Pilot, Cozuro Limited,
+44 7551 211 511
jp.germain@...
jp.germain@...

 
Re: Main outhaul gearbox

Craig Briggs
 

Hi John,
Hmmm, when I'm on the Amel Yahoo Group website there is a "search" box into which you enter the posting number.
Craig
Re: No response from Amel

Craig Briggs
 

Hi Stephen,
The SM and SN have the same reduction gear. The difference is the SM drives it with a 24v motor and SN with a 12v motor and so gets more power.  It is the same unit that Amel bought and installed on our boats when they made them.
Good luck with it,
Craig
s/v Sangaris, SN#68 
Re: Main Sail Roller Battens

Dave_Benjamin
 


Jose,

If you're using the Rutgerson, the results are quite predictable. They will fail and damage the sail. If you use short battens, you'll be limited as to the amount of leech hollow you can eliminate. You will also have excessive wear at the inboard ends of the pocket. If you look at any of my conventional mains, you can see that the partial battens are about half the girth of the sail. Most sailmakers have gotten away from the short leech battens for that and other reasons. 

I don't know what will occur with making the pockets at a 90 degree angle to the leech, but it will be interesting to see. 

As a sailmaker, if I owned a SM, I probably wouldn't bother with battens of any variety. My old Maramu had a conventional rig which suited me fine. 

Vertical battens have proven to be an acceptable compromise so it's a mystery to me why you would go to great expense and have ongoing repair needs just to reduce the leech hollow somewhat. 




---In amelyachtowners@..., <jvenegas@...> wrote :

David,

That is a very important observation that makes a lot of sence.  As the batten is flexed the steel in the inside will move relative to the one in the outside creating extra force against the end of the the protective covering.  Fortunately this potential problem can be completely prevented with proper design. 1) make the inner part of the batten a little shorter than the one outside and don't use long battens: if used perpendicular to the leach they will be smaller than the vertical or horizontal ones for the same leach.  2) making sure the ends are rounded and covered with plastic to prevent the shafe.  3) never leave them partially furled as they will continuously be flexing and likely will fatigue.  This is a true draw back as it puts a design limitation on the infinite number of reefs that the in mast furling sail can have without battens or with vertical battens.

 Thank you for bringing up this key point .  I will be happy to be a guiney pig with this design as I cant see myself puting rigid vertical battens on my amel.  

Some times innoavation comes through those who are willing to take the risks.

Jose
Re: No response from Amel

stephen_lees@...
 

Craig,  I have SM53 #349, SV Sequel. Not sure if the Santorin setup is the same. I have had other posts that offer interesting leads. If you think your source is the same for the Super Maramu please let me know. 
Thanks,
Stephen
SV Sequel 
SM53 #349
Re: Main Sail Roller Battens

Jose Venegas
 

David,

That is a very important observation that makes a lot of sence.  As the batten is flexed the steel in the inside will move relative to the one in the outside creating extra force against the end of the the protective covering.  Fortunately this potential problem can be completely prevented with proper design. 1) make the inner part of the batten a little shorter than the one outside and don't use long battens: if used perpendicular to the leach they will be smaller than the vertical or horizontal ones for the same leach.  2) making sure the ends are rounded and covered with plastic to prevent the shafe.  3) never leave them partially furled as they will continuously be flexing and likely will fatigue.  This is a true draw back as it puts a design limitation on the infinite number of reefs that the in mast furling sail can have without battens or with vertical battens.

 Thank you for bringing up this key point .  I will be happy to be a guiney pig with this design as I cant see myself puting rigid vertical battens on my amel.  

Some times innoavation comes through those who are willing to take the risks.

Jose
Main outhaul gearbox

Anne and John Hollamby <annejohnholl@...>
 

Hello Craig,
Thanks for giving a source but please note that to find it again in a few months time one would have to enter “no response from Amel as the subject in the search box and hope.   
 
                                           John,  Bali Hai, SM319,   for sale in Malta
 

Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:27 PM
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: No response from Amel
 
 

Stephen - go back to posting 18866 and 18867.  What is your boat and where are you?

Craig Briggs - SN#68 Sangaris, Florida
Re: No response from Amel

Craig Briggs
 

Stephen - go back to posting 18866 and 18867.  What is your boat and where are you?
Craig Briggs - SN#68 Sangaris, Florida
Mainsail furling gearbox

Anne and John Hollamby <annejohnholl@...>
 

Suppliers of these have been given several times on this site over the years, Try searching under this reference and the more likely one “main outhaul gearbox” which is the same supplier. I recall giving the name of the French supplier and the British Agent probably ten years ago and others giving the details much more recently. If I were not so senile I would try to find the details for you.
In practice it is only the big bronze drive gear that needs changing, other parts can be found at any good bearing supplier to be found in the Yellow Pages.
 
                Good luck,  Anne and John,  Bali Hai,  SM319,   for sale in Malta                              
 

Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: No response from Amel
 
 

Try Riza at Emek Marine. I believe he manufactures these....
 
At least ask....
 
GL
 



On 28 Nov 2014, at 18:25, stephen_lees@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I called Emilie over 2 weeks ago after two emails without response.  She was very pleasant, speaks English very well and said they were researching my request for a new main furling transmission/gear box.  I had sent photos as well with my original email.  Emilie indicated that they would probably have a response by Friday.  I have heard nothing back including a polite followup email asking for an update.  Any more suggestions?
Re: Main Sail Roller Battens

Dave_Benjamin
 

Jose,

Good luck. Let us know how it works out. Every other sailmaker I know who has tried them won't recommend them. But maybe your guy knows something those guys with a few hundred years of combined experience don't know and we will all learn from him. 

The issue is the steel coming out of the protective covering and damaging the sail. That's been the recurring problem with these battens. I I were to use one, I'd go with Robichaud. They're a small company and the service I receive from them is phenomenal. 
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: No response from Amel

Jean-Pierre Germain <jgermain@...>
 

Try Riza at Emek Marine. I believe he manufactures these....

At least ask....

GL




On 28 Nov 2014, at 18:25, stephen_lees@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I called Emilie over 2 weeks ago after two emails without response.  She was very pleasant, speaks English very well and said they were researching my request for a new main furling transmission/gear box.  I had sent photos as well with my original email.  Emilie indicated that they would probably have a response by Friday.  I have heard nothing back including a polite followup email asking for an update.  Any more suggestions?
Re: No response from Amel

stephen_lees@...
 

I called Emilie over 2 weeks ago after two emails without response.  She was very pleasant, speaks English very well and said they were researching my request for a new main furling transmission/gear box.  I had sent photos as well with my original email.  Emilie indicated that they would probably have a response by Friday.  I have heard nothing back including a polite followup email asking for an update.  Any more suggestions?
Re: Main Sail Roller Battens

Jose Venegas
 

Dave, that makes me feel better bacause I am not at all concerned about sail damage.  These battens, once the tip is flexed, become very easy to roll creating minimal friction between the sail and the mast slot.  Just see how flexible becomes a slanley measuring tape once you have beent it backwards.

Jose
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: No response from Amel

Ann-Sofie Svanberg <kanalmamman@...>
 

Call them! Emelie speaks very good english.

/Annsofie
S/Y Lady Annila SM 232

Skickat från min iPad

26 nov 2014 kl. 03:36 skrev "divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Thanks,


I've sent another email today, if I don't get any response I'm going to 'phone them

Cheers
Alan
SV Elyse SM437
Jordan Series Drogue - I HAVE ONE FOR SALE

blowinahoudy <no_reply@...>
 

I purchased a new Jordan Series Drogue from Ace Sailmakers (East Lyme, CT) in 2009 prior to a circumnavigation with the World Arc.  This is for up to 45,000 lb loaded monohull.  Their price for nylon double braid and with two bridle legs and chafe gear was $2,266.  For New England Ropes Endura the price was $3,383 and I bought this one as it is lighter and takes up less space.  156 cones.  It has never been used (which is just fine with me).  It needs 20-25 lb weight for its end.  Will sell for $2,400.  Contact Joseph Metz, cell 772-539-2425, email josephrmetz@....  Located in Maine but can ship.
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