Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

Alan Leslie
 

This is Olivier's previous post on this subject :

Hello everybody,

I'm wondering why some SMs have passed the EWOF and some haven't...
However, the generator neutral has never been connected to the ground on SMs and AMEL 54.

When the generator is running and feeding the vessel, the only way for the ground fault breaker to trip in case of a leak Live wire touching the body of a 230V equipment) is to have the neutral connected to the ground circuit (yellow/green wires network).
If some of you decide to have the generator neutral connected to the ground, they must make sure that they do it at the generator output, and, for instance, not at the main breaker in galley, or at the automatic solenoid switch output (in engine room). Someone in this thread wrote that it is mentioned in the ONAN manual.

It is not clear why AMEL decided not to connect the neutral and the ground on these vessels.
They are now doing it on the AMEL 55 and 64.
The rule ISO 13297 concerning 230V AC installations in leisure vessels states that the neutral from an inside generator (diesel generator or 24V/230V inverter) should be connected to the vessel's ground equipotential circuit. I guess the recommendations from ABYC are the same about that.

To be electrocuted while the generator is running, and on a vessel where the generator neutral is not connected with the ground, you would need to be wet, with wet feet touching a conductive part of the vessel that would also be in touch with the neutral of the generator AND there should be a Live wire touching the metal body of a 230V appliance. That can however happen when the vessel is flooded with seawater and you run the generator.
The risk of being electrocuted on an AMEL vessel is probably small, because the bottom of the boat is (should be) rather dry.
You can also routinely check (or have checked) the isolation of the 230V appliances (is there a connection between the Live of the appliance's cable and the metal body of the appliance? The answer should be: resistance infinite).

For those who are not familiar with electricity, I simply say that the risk is much bigger on land where the place where you put your feet is sometimes very conductive (wet feet on concrete or tiled floor).

I'm sure that the above will raise hundreds of questions, so, feel free to ask...

Have a good day and don't flood your AMEL...

Olivier


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: LOW ENGINE RPMS ON YANMAR 75

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

John,

Good call on the thermostat.

If you do not know how to check it, Google it for lots of information and videos.

Bill
BeBe 387
Gran Canaria

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 7:21 PM, jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Ben,

 

For the RPM - something super simple to check first - have you disconnected the throttle cable and checked the revs by directly operating the lever on the fuel pump? Without any other symptoms maybe your throttle cable has gradually become badly adjusted.

The cold running might be due to someone having removed the thermostat or the thermostat not working,

 

John Maramu #91 Popeye (with a Yanmar 75)



Re: LOW ENGINE RPMS ON YANMAR 75

jjjk12s@...
 

Ben,

 

For the RPM - something super simple to check first - have you disconnected the throttle cable and checked the revs by directly operating the lever on the fuel pump? Without any other symptoms maybe your throttle cable has gradually become badly adjusted.

The cold running might be due to someone having removed the thermostat or the thermostat not working,

 

John Maramu #91 Popeye (with a Yanmar 75)


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

Does Beta have a 110 HP+ range engine?
Jamie



On Friday, December 4, 2015 11:06 AM, "J Wagamon jwagam@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
Have you looked at Beta? If not, you should speak to Stanley at the US facility. He is very knowledgable. I know they also have a rebuilt engine coming available in December.

Good Luck
Jay
Mango


On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I got $1200 out of my old Volvo, the guy who put in the new engine sold it for parts and took a 10% commission.
Kent


On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:26 AM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive.

I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........!

I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options.

I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future.

Thanks again,
Jamie
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico.  The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost.  I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft.  That was another $20K.

Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there!

In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar.  I will NEVER own another Volvo!

Kent 
SM243
Kristy 


On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment.
Regards
Danny


From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that!

There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance.

I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal.

I will be getting proposals, so we shall see.

Thanks,
Jamie
s/v Phantom



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
If  a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor.
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl


From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Jamie,
 
Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed?
 
Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring?
 
Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running.
 
John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)











Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

Kent, what size and vintage was your Volvo? How many hours on it?
What failed that made you have to replace it?
Thanks,
Jamie



On Friday, December 4, 2015 9:15 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
I got $1200 out of my old Volvo, the guy who put in the new engine sold it for parts and took a 10% commission.
Kent


On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:26 AM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive.

I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........!

I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options.

I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future.

Thanks again,
Jamie
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico.  The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost.  I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft.  That was another $20K.

Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there!

In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar.  I will NEVER own another Volvo!

Kent 
SM243
Kristy 


On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment.
Regards
Danny


From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that!

There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance.

I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal.

I will be getting proposals, so we shall see.

Thanks,
Jamie
s/v Phantom



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
If  a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor.
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl


From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Jamie,
 
Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed?
 
Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring?
 
Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running.
 
John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)











Re: LOW ENGINE RPMS ON YANMAR 75

seafeverofcuan@...
 

Ben, everything you describe points to a dirty prop and hull. Heavy marine growth particularly on the prop can virtually stop engine. Does it rev freely when in neutral? 
The correct running temp. is 80C around 175 F easily checked with a laser temperature reader to confirm validity of your gauge.
Regards,
Trevor Seafever
SM 425 Redline
Mexico
FOR SALE
$295K






---In amelyachtowners@..., <joedoakes66@...> wrote :

I bought my SM in Feb 2015  and there are still many systems I need to better understand.  Most perplexing is I have seen declining engine RPMs since original survey.  Originally boat produced about 3100 RPMs (Yanmar manual says 3600/3800 tops - but I do know Autoprop may limit that number)  but has since declined to 1800.  Not sure why as engine seems to run fine - easy start, no smoke, no roughness at any RPM.  Racor and engine filters are new.  Manual shut off valve in passageway  is wide open (it actually will not shut off motor... but that's another issue).   I do have an Autoprop which was serviced well over a year ago - but not sure - by previous owner. Only other engine oddity as it runs very cold - never over 130F.   Boat has been in the water now for a little over a year with not much motor use.  Any and all suggestions would be welcome. 


Ben Driver

SM #347

La Bella Vita


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] LOW ENGINE RPMS ON YANMAR 75

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

The most common low rpm cause with an AutoProp is a dirty/fouled AutoProp.

It does not take much fouling to cause the blade(s) on an AutoProp to dig too deeply in the water causing low RPMSs. When was the last time you or someone else dove and inspected the prop.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 4:09 PM, joedoakes66@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I bought my SM in Feb 2015  and there are still many systems I need to better understand.  Most perplexing is I have seen declining engine RPMs since original survey.  Originally boat produced about 3100 RPMs (Yanmar manual says 3600/3800 tops - but I do know Autoprop may limit that number)  but has since declined to 1800.  Not sure why as engine seems to run fine - easy start, no smoke, no roughness at any RPM.  Racor and engine filters are new.  Manual shut off valve in passageway  is wide open (it actually will not shut off motor... but that's another issue).   I do have an Autoprop which was serviced well over a year ago - but not sure - by previous owner. Only other engine oddity as it runs very cold - never over 130F.   Boat has been in the water now for a little over a year with not much motor use.  Any and all suggestions would be welcome. 


Ben Driver

SM #347

La Bella Vita



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] LOW ENGINE RPMS ON YANMAR 75

Germain Jean-Pierre <jgermain@...>
 

Hello Ben,

I have a Volvo TDM 22 but diesels are diesels…

I encountered these symptoms on another boat… badly crusted propeller…

Other cause might be a faulty turbocharger.  Generally, we tend to baby our engines and this is not good.  I try to run at 80% or more power for 1 hour out of every 24 hrs of engine time.

Third possibility = a collapsed air filter.  BTDT.

Good luck.. at least the trouble shooting should be easy.


Jean-Pierre Germain,
SY Eleuthera, Amel Super Maramu 007
Porto Turistico Marina di Ragusa, Pontoon M15,
97100 Ragusa, Sicily, Italy
+44 7551 211 511
sy.eleuthera@...


On 4 Dec 2015, at 17:09, joedoakes66@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I bought my SM in Feb 2015  and there are still many systems I need to better understand.  Most perplexing is I have seen declining engine RPMs since original survey.  Originally boat produced about 3100 RPMs (Yanmar manual says 3600/3800 tops - but I do know Autoprop may limit that number)  but has since declined to 1800.  Not sure why as engine seems to run fine - easy start, no smoke, no roughness at any RPM.  Racor and engine filters are new.  Manual shut off valve in passageway  is wide open (it actually will not shut off motor... but that's another issue).   I do have an Autoprop which was serviced well over a year ago - but not sure - by previous owner. Only other engine oddity as it runs very cold - never over 130F.   Boat has been in the water now for a little over a year with not much motor use.  Any and all suggestions would be welcome. 


Ben Driver

SM #347

La Bella Vita



Posted by: joedoakes66@...
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1)



LOW ENGINE RPMS ON YANMAR 75

Ben and Gayle Super Maramu #347
 

I bought my SM in Feb 2015  and there are still many systems I need to better understand.  Most perplexing is I have seen declining engine RPMs since original survey.  Originally boat produced about 3100 RPMs (Yanmar manual says 3600/3800 tops - but I do know Autoprop may limit that number)  but has since declined to 1800.  Not sure why as engine seems to run fine - easy start, no smoke, no roughness at any RPM.  Racor and engine filters are new.  Manual shut off valve in passageway  is wide open (it actually will not shut off motor... but that's another issue).   I do have an Autoprop which was serviced well over a year ago - but not sure - by previous owner. Only other engine oddity as it runs very cold - never over 130F.   Boat has been in the water now for a little over a year with not much motor use.  Any and all suggestions would be welcome. 


Ben Driver

SM #347

La Bella Vita


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

J Wagamon <jwagam@...>
 

Have you looked at Beta? If not, you should speak to Stanley at the US facility. He is very knowledgable. I know they also have a rebuilt engine coming available in December.

Good Luck
Jay
Mango


On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I got $1200 out of my old Volvo, the guy who put in the new engine sold it for parts and took a 10% commission.
Kent


On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:26 AM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive.

I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........!

I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options.

I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future.

Thanks again,
Jamie
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico.  The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost.  I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft.  That was another $20K.

Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there!

In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar.  I will NEVER own another Volvo!

Kent 
SM243
Kristy 


On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment.
Regards
Danny


From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that!

There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance.

I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal.

I will be getting proposals, so we shall see.

Thanks,
Jamie
s/v Phantom



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
If  a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor.
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl


From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Jamie,
 
Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed?
 
Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring?
 
Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running.
 
John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)









Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

karkauai
 

I got $1200 out of my old Volvo, the guy who put in the new engine sold it for parts and took a 10% commission.
Kent


On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:26 AM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive.

I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........!

I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options.

I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future.

Thanks again,
Jamie
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico.  The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost.  I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft.  That was another $20K.

Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there!

In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar.  I will NEVER own another Volvo!

Kent 
SM243
Kristy 


On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment.
Regards
Danny


From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that!

There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance.

I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal.

I will be getting proposals, so we shall see.

Thanks,
Jamie
s/v Phantom



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
If  a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor.
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl


From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Jamie,
 
Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed?
 
Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring?
 
Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running.
 
John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)









Re: "Must Have" spares and preparations AND NEW RIGGING

Craig Briggs
 

---In amelyachtowners@..., <eamonn.washington@...> wrote :
After your reply John I sent a mail to Amel for a quote to replace the standing rigging in Hyères...... 
............ Many thanks Eamonn  SM #151 Travel Bug
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Eamonn, 
You may be interested in my post from last year in reply to Anne and John regarding new rigging.  The SM rigging will, of course, be a bit more than for our SN but I suspect you will pay much less by dealing directly with Amel's supplier ACMO.  It would be very interesting if you were to let us all know how much Amel quotes vs how much ACMO quotes, if you do this.
Here is the old posting:
"Hi Anne and John,
Those were my posts on using ACMO (not ARCO) - stands for ACcastillage MOderne and they are the rigging supplier for Amel.  Their web site is acmo dot fr and the contact info is there.  

We dealt with Sylvie Gazzurelli who is most helpful - her email is sylvie at acmo dot fr. She has all the original Amel specs for all the models.  For our Santorin the cost was 4707 Euros plus 145 Euros for shipping to Monfalcone, Italy - total 4852 Euros.  Because we used a non-EU (American) credit card, ACMO determined they did not have to charge VAT. We did this in 2010 when our rigging was 18 years old and we had an aft lower mizzen stay break at the lower swage, which seemed a clarion call for replacement.

We saved about 1000 Euro by specifying "standard" (right handed) threads on the turnbuckles, rather than Amel's original left-handed threads (can't imagine why they did that). The order included replacing all 19 stays complete with turnbuckles and new clevis pins. Also included was the "special" short turnbuckle screw on the headstay and one mizzen back stay with isolators for our SSB antenna. The triactic is fixed length with no turnbuckles (aka bottle screws).

It took us about a week to do the installation ourselves at our winter slip in Monfalcone - Katherine hoisted me in the bosun's chair and I'd remove the old stays one or two at a time, then fasten the new ones. Tedious but not too difficult and we only worked half days.

Cheers,
Craig Briggs
s/v Sangaris, Santorin #68


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive.

I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........!

I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options.

I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future.

Thanks again,
Jamie
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico.  The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost.  I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft.  That was another $20K.

Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there!

In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar.  I will NEVER own another Volvo!

Kent 
SM243
Kristy 


On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment.
Regards
Danny


From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that!

There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance.

I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal.

I will be getting proposals, so we shall see.

Thanks,
Jamie
s/v Phantom



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
If  a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor.
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl


From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Jamie,
 
Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed?
 
Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring?
 
Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running.
 
John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)









Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

karkauai
 

It is on my boat.  If Amel doesn't ground it there, where do they ground it?
Kent 


On Dec 4, 2015, at 6:36 AM, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

There is previous post on this with a reply from Olivier....

In the SM series the AC ground is not connected to the generator ground....but in the '55 it is...
It seems for electrical safety the AC ground should be connected to the generator at the point the AC leaves the generator, but for some reason known only to Amel, it isn't in our boats.
 Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: Thinking about a fine Oyster?

Alan Leslie
 

This is unbelievable for a company with the reputation that Oyster has...shocking....
I was considering Oysters before I bought Elyse...I'm glad I didn't go down that route.
It seems the keel stub had no real support at all, the laminates were dry and not bonded, but the worst is the mode of construction which emanates from the design - what were they thinking...
and concrete blocks in the bow !! Its hard to believe a company like Oyster would do that...but then look at Volkswagen !
So pleased I have an AMEL !
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

Alan Leslie
 

There is previous post on this with a reply from Olivier....
In the SM series the AC ground is not connected to the generator ground....but in the '55 it is...
It seems for electrical safety the AC ground should be connected to the generator at the point the AC leaves the generator, but for some reason known only to Amel, it isn't in our boats.
 Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Thinking about a fine Oyster?

yahoogroups@...
 

You should read this article and look at the absolutely appalling construction. including the use of poured concrete and concrete block for  ballast.And look at the wire conduit.

This is shameful for even a Hunter.

ANOTHER MAJOR KEEL FAILURE: What Really Happened to Polina Star III?

 

Bill

BeBe 387


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

sailormon <kimberlite@...>
 

Kent,

I have to get to Colombia and check the transfer switch, generator, and the Calpeda pump.

I will then have an Idea as to what Amel did.

In Ny now.

Fair Winds

Eric

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 10:37 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

 

 

Where is the AC ground wire connected at the generator, Eric?  

 

I spoke to an ONAN service guy who says that the 220AC output cable has to be connected to the housing on the generator (the box just to the port side of the bigger box with the breakers and stop switch).

 

He said the only way to isolate the 220AC ground from the bonding system is to remove the bonding cable from the generator.  There is a small pencil zinc in the heat exchanger that he says is enough to protect the generator.

 

So, is your generator connected to the bonding system?

 

Thanks for your thoughts Jamie. It's going to take me a while to digest that.

 

My brain hurts.

 

Kent

SM243

Kristy


On Dec 3, 2015, at 1:05 PM, sailormon kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi,

My generator has an isolated ground and the negative is not connected to the start battery except when the generator is starting.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 9:41 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

 

 

Kent, again thanks for the kind words about my engine failure on Phantom. Just to confirm my comments, I am not suggesting the exhaust design was necessarily at fault, but in my case the layout of the system certainly could have exacerbated my engine failure. In any event, if I can take steps to improve with my new engine, I will.

 

If I can comment on your AC findings, I understand that Amel deliberately does not connect the AC earth to the DC bonding grid. That, of course, is totally opposite from US regulations that mandate that connection for safety, a practice to which I fully subscribe as an electrical engineer. There is also the absolute "no-no" of connecting AC neutral to earth anywhere on the boat unless you have an isolation transformer.

 

The exception, however, is at a separately-derived power source. For a shore power connection, the neutral-to-earth bond would be at the shore power source in the marina. For a generator, it would be at the generator. When the automatic transfer switch (ATS) is in shore power mode, it ensures the neutral is connected only to the shore power feeder and not the boat. It also ensures the grounding systems are not interconnected, since the neutral is not connected to the boat systems. Further the generator case will be connected to earth, since the battery negative for the starter lands on the frame. When the ATS is switched to generator, the neutral "should" be tied to AC earth, since it "should" be bonded to PE at the generator. You should verify the connection between the blue neutral wire and the green/yellow PE. If it is connected you are safe; if not, and you had a fault in an AC circuit to earth, the neutral would not have a return path to its source and the AC current would try to find an alternate path - not good.

 

Many don't I know, but technically an inverter is a separately-derived power source, and the neutral there should be tied to earth as well. The problem is that most inverters also function in pass-through mode.

 

I hope that helps. Let me know what you find.

 

s/v Phantom Amel 54

 

 

On Thursday, December 3, 2015 7:42 AM, "karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Well, I have separated all the 220AC ground wires at the 220 box in the galley and at the 220 boxes in the engine room. I found that the output cable from the generator is grounded to the generator case, and thus, to the bonding system. The other end of that cable goes to the automatic switch that chooses generator over shore power, where it is connected to all other 220 grounds via the output from the switch.
This violates my understanding that the 220AC ground should NOT be connected to the bonding system. Now what????

Kent
SM243
Kristy

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

sailormon <kimberlite@...>
 

Jamie,

If the engine is No good why don’t you take a few wrenches to the engine and take the head off and see what the valves and pistons look like. You can’t break something that is already broken.

 

If a new block is needed- can you buy a short block?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 2:45 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 

 

No one could do a compression check, since the folks I have to deal with here do not have the Volvo test equipment needed. I would have had to buy it all or bring in some firm from another state.

Go figure that.

 

Also, no I did not take off the head. That is a lot of work and not worth the expense if I am planning a new engine at this point. There is no point throwing more investigation money at this engine. No one has been able to fix it or (with partial dis-assembly) absolutely identify the problem. Having completely ruled out the electrical and fuel systems (my good mechanic now demonstrated that they all are working correctly), the bottom line is that it is clearly not a simple problem. I concur with his assessment after I saw the salt crystals in the exhaust near the turbo

Thanks,

Jamie

 

 

On Thursday, December 3, 2015 1:27 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Hi Jamie,

what a nightmare you have had. We all feel for you. The valve and cylinder damage suspected would certainly affect the compression. Did you ever manage to get someone to do a full compression test.

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

 


From: "ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Thursday, 3 December 2015 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 

 

Trevor, trust me I am well aware of the risks of cranking a no-start engine with sea water being drawn in. I was very careful to avoid water buildup in the muffler and exhaust at all times.

 

The engine would not start a week after it had run for 4 days, and that could not have been caused by excessive cranking. I did not try to start it in the interim, and when I did I carefully drained the muffler or shut off the raw water intake valve after a few attempts to get it going. And I kept draining it periodically as we tested and tested. If it had filled up with water during that time, the engine would have seized. I have seen engines do that before, and it is almost like having a dead battery. The engine will not even turn over. In my case here, the engine has always cranked just fine but never even coughed after the run up from Florida in June.

 

My service guy suggested that it could have been a long time in the making (possibly from weak compression) and it could have gotten worse during the trip up from Florida. I ran it fairly hard during the trip after the sea trial problems, which obviously would have increased exhaust back pressure and reduced the exhaust efficiency at higher RPM, especially if the engine compression was not up to par. He suggested, as well, that sitting for a week with any sort of "backwash" water (even heavy vapor if you will) could have caused it to fail. Again, short of tearing the engine down, he cannot say for sure. But we have ruled out every other possibility we can think of, including all those who have offered suggestions and lent support from the group. I am out of options now. There is nothing else to test or try.

 

I do not want to de-Amel my boat (I have been trying to keep to the design philosophy Henri set in place in all that I do), but I do need to ensure that water does not get into the engine in the future. If that means a bit of rework of the exhaust as I install my new engine, well then I need to do that for my boat. No one and no engineers are correct all the time. And, as you know, each boat is different in how it behaves. I have to deal with what I have. A new engine is expensive but clearly not an undesirable thing..............



Thanks for the support.

Jamie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

sailormon <kimberlite@...>
 

Jamie,

If you look at the back of the generator you will see the starter solenoid. It has a floating ground as does the alternator.

It closes to connect the battery ground to the starter motor and opens as soon as the engine starts.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 2:36 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

 

 

Eric, I guess I don't understand what you mean. How does the negative get disconnected after the generator starts? It would have to be connected in advance to get the starter to even work. Most negatives go directly to the generator frame which is integral with the starter.

Can you help me here?

Jamie

s/v Phantom

 

 

On Thursday, December 3, 2015 1:06 PM, "sailormon kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Hi,

My generator has an isolated ground and the negative is not connected to the start battery except when the generator is starting.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 9:41 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

 

 

Kent, again thanks for the kind words about my engine failure on Phantom. Just to confirm my comments, I am not suggesting the exhaust design was necessarily at fault, but in my case the layout of the system certainly could have exacerbated my engine failure. In any event, if I can take steps to improve with my new engine, I will.

 

If I can comment on your AC findings, I understand that Amel deliberately does not connect the AC earth to the DC bonding grid. That, of course, is totally opposite from US regulations that mandate that connection for safety, a practice to which I fully subscribe as an electrical engineer. There is also the absolute "no-no" of connecting AC neutral to earth anywhere on the boat unless you have an isolation transformer.

 

The exception, however, is at a separately-derived power source. For a shore power connection, the neutral-to-earth bond would be at the shore power source in the marina. For a generator, it would be at the generator. When the automatic transfer switch (ATS) is in shore power mode, it ensures the neutral is connected only to the shore power feeder and not the boat. It also ensures the grounding systems are not interconnected, since the neutral is not connected to the boat systems. Further the generator case will be connected to earth, since the battery negative for the starter lands on the frame. When the ATS is switched to generator, the neutral "should" be tied to AC earth, since it "should" be bonded to PE at the generator. You should verify the connection between the blue neutral wire and the green/yellow PE. If it is connected you are safe; if not, and you had a fault in an AC circuit to earth, the neutral would not have a return path to its source and the AC current would try to find an alternate path - not good.

 

Many don't I know, but technically an inverter is a separately-derived power source, and the neutral there should be tied to earth as well. The problem is that most inverters also function in pass-through mode.

 

I hope that helps. Let me know what you find.

 

s/v Phantom Amel 54

 

 

On Thursday, December 3, 2015 7:42 AM, "karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Well, I have separated all the 220AC ground wires at the 220 box in the galley and at the 220 boxes in the engine room. I found that the output cable from the generator is grounded to the generator case, and thus, to the bonding system. The other end of that cable goes to the automatic switch that chooses generator over shore power, where it is connected to all other 220 grounds via the output from the switch.
This violates my understanding that the 220AC ground should NOT be connected to the bonding system. Now what????

Kent
SM243
Kristy