Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rig Tuning

Patrick McAneny
 

Joel, That was interesting , its good to hear confirmation of what you believe to be true. Could you address the backstays, I have never kept them nearly as tight and have gathered that they are not suppose to be. Could you comment on how tight is right .
Thanks Joel,
Pat
SM Shenanigans
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: n33077@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2016 9:22 am
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rig Tuning

 
I think I just found it:
o understand why the rig tension on an Amel is so very different than
on other fiberglass boats, we must first consider and understand the
structural differences that Amel boats have compared to more ordinary
boats from other builders.



Amel boats are true monocoque structures. An egg is a perfect
monocoque structure, as an illustration. If you take an egg and place
it in the palm of your hand, wrap your fingers around it evenly, and
then squeeze as hard as you possibly can, it will not break. Go ahead,
off to the fridge you go...I'll wait.



See what I mean? Only if you "point load"/unequally squeeze the egg
will it crush. Great party trick by the way...



Recall the recent story about Eric Freedman and being inside his Amel
offshore in hurricane wind and seas; not a sound inside. No creaking
or groaning. No oil canning. No panel deflection... Amel boats are one
piece, no conventional hull to deck joint, they are very strong and
uncommonly rigid. They are a genuine monocoque.



On most fiberglass boats, the rig is tuned tight but when sailing, the
leeward shrouds flop around like al dente spaghetti while the windward
shrouds are tight as a drum. This is due primarily because of hull
flex. Even the better known "premium brands", you know who they are,
have this flexing in the hull.



THIS IS NOT GOOD. Fiberglass, just like metal, gets weaker and weaker
every time it is bent or flexed. Just as when one takes a paperclip
and bends it back and forth a few times and it breaks in two, a flexed
fiberglass hull gets weaker with use. Amel boats are designed not to
flex for good reason; they stay stronger and last longer that way. The
rigging needs to be exceptionally tight as well for reasons I'll
relate shortly.



Riggers will never believe this as it is contrary to what they know to
be usual and correct. Unless a rigger unfamiliar with and not
accepting of Amel idiosyncrasies can put his hands on an Amel that has
been tuned by Amel, they will never believe and will refuse to tune an
Amel to the tension that is required.



An Amel should be tuned so that the mast is absolutely straight and
perpendicular to the mast step/90 degrees. The shrouds should never be
loose on the leeward side even under the press of strong breeze. Just
a tad slack, but not loose and certainly not able to be moved back and
forth. The headstay should only have a very modest bend even in a good
breeze. I have tuned many Amel rigs and I can do it but it is hard to
tell you how tight is "tight". I don't use a strain gauge, I just do
it. I was a rigger in an earlier life so I know the sequence to follow
to get the right outcome but it is difficult to impart to you how
tight. REAL tight. Tight as you dare then a tad more. Ringing bronze
tight...ahh, what's the use......



Try to find an Amel that is owned by someone we (Amel and or me) sold
a boat to. We impress upon our new clients and my second hand boat
clients to take note of how tight the rig is and to keep it this way.
They usually do. Second only perhaps to mechanics who call all flaming
irate to tell me that the Amel drive system will never work (once or
twice a month sometimes) are the riggers who call to say the rig is
way too tight or to insist they won't tighten it up the way we tell
them too. It is the "not invented here syndrome" all over again. Ain't
what I am familiar with so there-fore it can't possibly
work...Sometimes they say uncharitable things about my ancestors...



What's the risk? Plenty. If the rig is loose, it can move around.
Combine wave action and puffy breeze and the rig can pump and move
around inches with tremendously quick acceleration and sudden
deceleration of all the rigging mass. This can more than double the
ultimate load placed on the rig and all the components. It will loosen
the boat up real quick. As mentioned before, that is not good for the
structure. Just imagine accelerated pulling/jolting on all the rig
points with wire connections; kinda like squeezing that egg unevenly,
no? Hmmmm...



Show this to your rigger. Have him call me if he says fiddlesticks.
Better yet have him call Amel. They may be a bit more, uh, forceful
than me (if that's possible...) but from the horses' mouth the truth
shall flow. Maybe they will believe the builder as they seldom think I
have it right. Best is to let them see a properly tuned Amel rig.



After new rigging is installed, Amel tuned tight, and sailed in heavy
breeze and seas, it will stretch as much as 8% and even more dependent
on the wire quality. Tune it tight again, then put the little bolts
and nuts back in the wire ends inside the turnbuckles (bet you
wondered why Amel does that..) and smile. You will only need to very
occasionally retune rig components as once it is right, it doesn't
move, it NEVER pumps, and it stays as it was meant to by God, Captain
Amel, and the entire Amel team. Me too.



Trust me on this or put your hands on a well kept Amel.



Have fun with your Maramu. They are very sweet sea boats.



All the best,

Joel



Joel F. Potter - Cruising Yacht Specialist, LLC

Amel's Sole Associate for the Americas

401 East Las Olas Boulevard, #130-126

Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301

Phone: (954) 462-5869

Email: jfpottercys@...

<http://www.yachtworld.com/jfpottercys>
Joel F. Potter - Cruising Yacht Specialist, LLC (Fort Lauderdale, FL)
 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Grounding

Paul Osterberg
 

Thank you for that Bill
After cleaning the threads on the bolt I  measure good contact between the two bolts holding the two zinks on the rudder. However when measuring between he bolts and the shaft I measure ca 1 k ohm resistance between the zink bolts and the shaft. I hd hoped for better connection
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Grounding

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Paul,

You said, "The bolts on the rudder holding the zink are not connected electrically with each other."

The bolts on the rudder holding the zincs SHOULD be connected electrically with each other and to the bonding system. You should be able to check continuity between the propeller shaft and the zincs on the rudder. If there is not continuity (electrical connection) between the propeller shaft and the zincs, you probably have a problem with the bonding system not being connected to the motor and C Drive.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 1:54 PM, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thank you Vladimir

I have tried your concept with  cleaning and now they conduct and have electric contact with the copper strip in the lazaret. Don't understand what you mean by all grounds connect to the rudder. I have checked and there are no connection with the zink on the rudder I believe, and do not understand how it could be. The bolts on the rudder holding the zink are not connected electrically with each other
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries - What type house batteries to use & what voltage charge from Solar/Wind?

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

I think that you may be describing what Dessalator calls the "sterilizing cartridge." It does work well using the "flush" procedure. I have the sterilizing cartridge, but no longer use it.

I did something different for when our boat may be unattended. I make sure the fresh water tank is full. I have a programmable 24VDC timer and a 24VDC valve that is set to flush the membranes 2 times a week for 5 minutes. This uses about 30 liters of fresh water a week. If the tank is full I can easily leave the boat for 30 weeks. I leave it ON all the time, even when I am on the boat because previous to this addition, I would forget to flush twice a week. In my opinion, keeping the membranes wet with fresh water is a much better solution than using caustic chemicals.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 1:29 PM, 'Hanspeter.baettig' hanspeter.baettig@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thank you Colin.
Btw I installed also last year the Duo watermaker 100 l. Very good watermaker!
I spoke recently at the Paris boat show with Mr. Wagner jun., the owner of Dessalator. He showd me his new hibernation system for the watermakers, a semi automatic system. Its a tube where you put in the prefilter, put in the chemicals and then you switch on without pressure the system, that means you do not have to disconnect any houses. It was new for me, maybe other members know it already. Everything on spare parts are of curse on the dessalators website (also in eng.)
I heard from very good friends that Brisbane is a lovely sailing area and an interessting city.
Kind regards
Hanspeter
Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 01.03.2016 um 09:43 schrieb Colin Streeter colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Hi Hanspeter

Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately you miss-read what I wrote there, and on reading it again now I can see why, and that it is my fault and I should write things more clearly on this forum.

Anyhow, what I said (or meant to say) was that the davits cost us approximately 25% less than if I had ordered similar davits to be welded up and made for our boat by an Australian davit maker. Twice before I have had davits made here in Australia (once for an Island Packet 40, and the other for a South Coast 36 design) and each time we spent approximately $15,000 AUD on these. However neither were as well made and as large as the ones from Turkey so I assume such a set would be a fair bit more for an Amel 53, possibly around $20,000 AUD. Therefore Emerek's price was 25% cheaper even after all the duty etc.

Although Australia is a beautiful country to cruise in and visit, unfortunately it is a very expensive place for boating works and equipment and this is why we took the opportunity to add many many things onto our Amel such as a new 100 l/hr 240v/24v duo watermaker, a second full auto-pilot with quick change over switch, new radios, GPS, AIS, Sails,.......etc etc when we had our boat in the Canary Islands in 2011 as it was so very cheap there compared to doing all this work back here in Australia.

Also the solar panels and controllers were very reasonably priced - we got two 260w panels (total 540w) plus a Tracer MPPT controller with MT50 display all of which did not cost much at all (purchased new on E-Bay) and which we installed ourselves. So I would think that Kent's proposed budget of US$18,000 is actually a very realistic figure to have all this equipment added. I would be surprised if it cost him more that that.

Please don't think that you disturb me with your questions at all. Quite to the contrary questions from very experienced members such you on this site is of great benefit to us all especially since you have now more that 20 years experience sailing an Amel. This is what actually makes this site so valuable in my view.

Colin Streeter
Island Pearl II, Amel 53 #332
Brisbane


On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:33 AM, 'Hanspeter.baettig' hanspeter.baettig@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Dear Colin
Thanks for your interesting info. I have however a calculation problem, which I maybe make a mistske. In Kents mail he mentioned the cost for him for dingy/ solar arch (480 pw at least) about 18k US$.
You paid by Riza 25% less including all the extras (duty/transport/Vat)
I have it done also there. Its not Riza , its a exellent subcontracor , who did the job. And the very good electrician, paid by Riza, Tamar his name. 
That means you paid about 13500 US$ fot the complete arch incloudind the high performance batterie solar controler ?
I hope I do not disturbe you with my question, only I was wondering about the real cost.
Best regards
Hanspeter
Tamango 2, SM #16

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 29.02.2016 um 13:36 schrieb Colin Streeter colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Hi Kent
Sorry for the delay as I just noticed your post now, and also thanks to Bill for the feedback on the US2200 which seem like a good option too with a slightly smaller footprint and height than the Trojans. A couple answers to Kent's questions:

1) Your cost estimates are about right for the arch and panels. We, along with many others on this site went with Riza's arch and had it shipped to Australia. The cost, even after having to pay import duty, customs, Australian GST was still about 25% cheaper than if I had a local Brisbane s/s welder make it for me. More importantly though was the fine job Riza did on it as he has all the curves in the right places compared to what I local welder would have done. We constantly have people stop at our dock and enquire where we had it made.

2) The downside I referred to is moving the engine battery from the internal battery compartment to the engine room and making up a new fibreglass waterproof battery box to sit across the engine and genset bearers against the rear wall of the engine room to the RHS of the Racor fuel filter with a separate set of battery switches. Whilst there are advantages in having a shorter cable run to start the motors, we have always been extremely reluctant to change anything on our boat from the original design as the previous owner had taken such great care of the boat with everything in almost "as new" condition when we got it despite it's age. Such a decision for us is a major issue (as was the decision to put an arch on the boat) to think very carefully about however there would be huge benefits in having 675 amp hours available.

3)  I am absolutely no expert in these matters compared to all the other regular contributors on this forum however I did notice from all the discussions that Danny has had his batteries (in the above format) since 2009 and that they are still going strong which could possibly be linked to having over 650 amp hours of storage (on the older 8+1 battery design SM2000) and never needing to run it down much compared to the rest of us with 650 amp hours storage and his solar and wind generator setup. I note you also picked up on this potential benefit of more battery longevity with a potentially higher amp hour storage.

This is very tempting indeed but today I fitted the first 8 Trojan T 105's (we now have 450 amp hours instead of the previous 360) and it is clear that I cannot fit another 4 in there due to the height of the box at the aft end where the last 2 batteries would need to go being only 265mm and the batteries 270mm. We would not want a situation where there is no air circulation room above the batteries. There is however a huge amount of room remaining - in fact enough to put in an additional two spare 12v engine started batteries (which are lower) - but not the required height for the 6v's. Based on this we will now stay with the 450 amp hours in the interim and see how we go. 

Colin Streeter
Island Pearl II, Amel 53 #332
Brisbane

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 2:26 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hey Colin, et al,
I've been watching this thread with great interest.  It's great to hear all the different solutions to the Amel power  needs.  I'm still using the original configuration of 8 flooded lead acid 12v for the house bank.  They are inexpensive and easy to find anywhere.  I charge for an hour or a little more twice a day without supplemental solar or wind. I run the desalinator when charging  in clean water, and run the washer about twice a week.  I discharge to no lower than 24v, usually ~24.4v.

I'm really intrigued by the 12-6v house bank idea.  675 AH is significantly more than what I have, but not twice as much.  I would still have to charge twice a day without adding solar/wind.  The advantage seems to me to be discharging the batteries less, at least theoretically improving their longevity.    From experience of those who have done this, could I expect the batteries to last a lot longer (mine last 3-4 years now)?

If I were to add solar and/or wind I would want to add an arch/davits (on my wish list anyway) which would cost a total of ?$18-22K (is that a reasonable guesstimate for arch/davits/solar/ wind?).  Could I eliminate charging for the most part, or at least reduce my charging to once a day?  I would still need to run the generator to run the washer and watermaker which I would probably do at least twice a week.

I'm mostly thinking that the reduction in running the generator or added convenience would not justify the cost, unless adding solar and wind would mostly eliminate the need for daily charging.

Colin, you said you were going offline with this discussion after saying "Of course there are some downsides to this too".  Aside from the cost and added complexity and maintenance required when adding solar/wind, what other downsides do you anticipate?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Feb 26, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Colin Streeter colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Danny
Thanks, having done the measurements I can see how they would fit in with 3  banks of 4 x 6v if the engine battery is moved to the engine bay. This would leave plenty space in the the battery compartment and take our house battery  amps from 360 amps @ 24v (old 90amp 12v x 8 bat system) to 675amps @ 24v. Aĺl this in the smaller / older SM2000 8 house battery compartment.

Of course there are some downsides to this too. Will contact you direct as this thread has potentially gone on a little too long on the same topic now.

Colin Streeter
Island Pearl II, Amel 53 #332
Brisbane

On 27 Feb 2016 10:51 am, "simms simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Sorry Colin I missed the word "Trojan" in my last post. Pointless without it
Cheers
Danny


Sent from Samsung Mobile


-------- Original message --------
From: "simms simms@... [amelyachtowners]"
Date:27/02/2016 11:29 (GMT+12:00)
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries - What type house batteries to use what voltage charge from Solar/Wind?

Hi Colin.  Ocean pearl had 12 six volt golf cart batteries on purchase and they fitted. 
Cheers
Danny 
Sm 299 
Ocean pearl 


Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: "Colin Streeter colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date:27/02/2016  03:18  (GMT+12:00)
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries - What type house batteries to use & what voltage charge from Solar/Wind?
Thanks Eric for following up. I will look out for those ones too as I am keen to see the dimensions for fit.  The best price on a Trojan T-105 here today was AUD$275. There is another USA brand equivalent called a US2200 with the same physical dimensions and 7 AMPS more storage at $235 each. The battery salesman recons that these are just as good as the Trojans ... but I have not heard of these before so am not so sure?

Interestingly we took our battery compartment internal measurements this afternoon and the height is problematic as the compartment is 1610mm long x 385mm wide but the depth slopes slightly from 260mm at the af




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445



Re: Rig Tuning

n33077@...
 

I think I just found it:
o understand why the rig tension on an Amel is so very different than
on other fiberglass boats, we must first consider and understand the
structural differences that Amel boats have compared to more ordinary
boats from other builders.



Amel boats are true monocoque structures. An egg is a perfect
monocoque structure, as an illustration. If you take an egg and place
it in the palm of your hand, wrap your fingers around it evenly, and
then squeeze as hard as you possibly can, it will not break. Go ahead,
off to the fridge you go...I'll wait.



See what I mean? Only if you "point load"/unequally squeeze the egg
will it crush. Great party trick by the way...



Recall the recent story about Eric Freedman and being inside his Amel
offshore in hurricane wind and seas; not a sound inside. No creaking
or groaning. No oil canning. No panel deflection... Amel boats are one
piece, no conventional hull to deck joint, they are very strong and
uncommonly rigid. They are a genuine monocoque.



On most fiberglass boats, the rig is tuned tight but when sailing, the
leeward shrouds flop around like al dente spaghetti while the windward
shrouds are tight as a drum. This is due primarily because of hull
flex. Even the better known "premium brands", you know who they are,
have this flexing in the hull.



THIS IS NOT GOOD. Fiberglass, just like metal, gets weaker and weaker
every time it is bent or flexed. Just as when one takes a paperclip
and bends it back and forth a few times and it breaks in two, a flexed
fiberglass hull gets weaker with use. Amel boats are designed not to
flex for good reason; they stay stronger and last longer that way. The
rigging needs to be exceptionally tight as well for reasons I'll
relate shortly.



Riggers will never believe this as it is contrary to what they know to
be usual and correct. Unless a rigger unfamiliar with and not
accepting of Amel idiosyncrasies can put his hands on an Amel that has
been tuned by Amel, they will never believe and will refuse to tune an
Amel to the tension that is required.



An Amel should be tuned so that the mast is absolutely straight and
perpendicular to the mast step/90 degrees. The shrouds should never be
loose on the leeward side even under the press of strong breeze. Just
a tad slack, but not loose and certainly not able to be moved back and
forth. The headstay should only have a very modest bend even in a good
breeze. I have tuned many Amel rigs and I can do it but it is hard to
tell you how tight is "tight". I don't use a strain gauge, I just do
it. I was a rigger in an earlier life so I know the sequence to follow
to get the right outcome but it is difficult to impart to you how
tight. REAL tight. Tight as you dare then a tad more. Ringing bronze
tight...ahh, what's the use......



Try to find an Amel that is owned by someone we (Amel and or me) sold
a boat to. We impress upon our new clients and my second hand boat
clients to take note of how tight the rig is and to keep it this way.
They usually do. Second only perhaps to mechanics who call all flaming
irate to tell me that the Amel drive system will never work (once or
twice a month sometimes) are the riggers who call to say the rig is
way too tight or to insist they won't tighten it up the way we tell
them too. It is the "not invented here syndrome" all over again. Ain't
what I am familiar with so there-fore it can't possibly
work...Sometimes they say uncharitable things about my ancestors...



What's the risk? Plenty. If the rig is loose, it can move around.
Combine wave action and puffy breeze and the rig can pump and move
around inches with tremendously quick acceleration and sudden
deceleration of all the rigging mass. This can more than double the
ultimate load placed on the rig and all the components. It will loosen
the boat up real quick. As mentioned before, that is not good for the
structure. Just imagine accelerated pulling/jolting on all the rig
points with wire connections; kinda like squeezing that egg unevenly,
no? Hmmmm...



Show this to your rigger. Have him call me if he says fiddlesticks.
Better yet have him call Amel. They may be a bit more, uh, forceful
than me (if that's possible...) but from the horses' mouth the truth
shall flow. Maybe they will believe the builder as they seldom think I
have it right. Best is to let them see a properly tuned Amel rig.



After new rigging is installed, Amel tuned tight, and sailed in heavy
breeze and seas, it will stretch as much as 8% and even more dependent
on the wire quality. Tune it tight again, then put the little bolts
and nuts back in the wire ends inside the turnbuckles (bet you
wondered why Amel does that..) and smile. You will only need to very
occasionally retune rig components as once it is right, it doesn't
move, it NEVER pumps, and it stays as it was meant to by God, Captain
Amel, and the entire Amel team. Me too.



Trust me on this or put your hands on a well kept Amel.



Have fun with your Maramu. They are very sweet sea boats.



All the best,

Joel



Joel F. Potter - Cruising Yacht Specialist, LLC

Amel's Sole Associate for the Americas

401 East Las Olas Boulevard, #130-126

Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301

Phone: (954) 462-5869

Email: jfpottercys@...

<http://www.yachtworld.com/jfpottercys>
Joel F. Potter - Cruising Yacht Specialist, LLC (Fort Lauderdale, FL)

 


Rig Tuning

n33077@...
 

I just got my electric motors rebuilt.  Riggers got the forestay back up.  Now comes the question of tuning. I searched the site for Joel Potters   Rig Tuning           but did not find anything.


From the other posts I found that the rid is to be tight.  How tight?  My traidic is lose, and I am having the riggers come back and re-tune the rig (moving mast forward.)  Since the boat is a Sharki, I think I can use most of the info tailored to the Sharki.


I also posted this on the new site too..

Thanks


Aras

Sharki #163


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Maintenance SSB antenna

enio rossi
 

Thanks Eric, the insulated part of triatic is not a dipole. Well, the copper core of the coaxial is connected to the insulated  part of the triatic, but WHERE do I connect the shielding braid? A building site has replaced the triatic without reconnecting cables........ 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Solar. Wind gem and arch

karkauai
 

Thanks Pat. I thought that was the same as your arch.
Hi to Diane
Kent


On Mar 1, 2016, at 7:50 AM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent & Ian, I installed the same arch last year before heading to the Caribbean and it performed very well. We hoisted a 10,5 rib with 18 hp. outboard . We have three solar panels , a wind gen.,lights and wifi installed on it. I also added a diagonal . It only took about three hours to install and cost me about $1,200. It does come out of New Jersey and the company is Atlantic Towers . They ship it in a box in three parts which bolt together , has articulating mounts.
 Pat
SM Shenanigans
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: francesringley@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Mon, Feb 29, 2016 3:32 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Solar. Wind gem and arch

 
Kent, the company is in New Jersey I believe and they already have the measurements for the SM. Pretty straightforward to install. It took me two days. We have a 9 foot RIB and a 9.8hp 2~stroke outboard. I will lift both when at anchor but prefer to island hop with the outboard on the rail. I put the dinghy on the aft deck for longer passages.So far, with about 3000 bluewater miles experience with it, we are satisfied. I have added a cross rail for lateral support (does not come with the arch itself). Also, I will be installing a light gauge wire mizzen masthead stay that will split to each top corner of the arch to protect against any shocks. 

Ian
Loca Lola II
SM153


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Grounding

Paul Osterberg
 

Thank you Vladimir
I have tried your concept with  cleaning and now they conduct and have electric contact with the copper strip in the lazaret. Don't understand what you mean by all grounds connect to the rudder. I have checked and there are no connection with the zink on the rudder I believe, and do not understand how it could be. The bolts on the rudder holding the zink are not connected electrically with each other
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Grounding

VLADIMIR SONSEV
 

Hi Paul,
You don't have to remove ground sintered plate for cleaning.
I just brushed on vinegar on the plate and brush it again with brass brush. It worked well. You can use some other well deluded acids.
Check all ground connects to the rudder.
Good luck to you.

On Mar 1, 2016 6:41 AM, "osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
>
>  
>
> Hello!
> Jean-Pierre
> The intention is to connect the SSB to the provided ground the sintered plates on the skeg.
> I have now identified that one of the YG cables attached to the bilge ground strap also was connected with the copper strip in the after lazaret. That's good, but it looks as the sintered plates have been neglected for a long time i.e a lot of deposit in the pors, when testing with my multimeter by putting the probes to the sintered plates it gives no indication of conductivity, Which I guess they should have given. further they seam to be stuck I can't loosen the screw else I would put them in White vinegar.
> PAUL on S/Y Kerpa SM#259 
>
>


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries - What type house batteries to use & what voltage charge from Solar/Wind?

hanspeter baettig
 

Thank you Colin.
Btw I installed also last year the Duo watermaker 100 l. Very good watermaker!
I spoke recently at the Paris boat show with Mr. Wagner jun., the owner of Dessalator. He showd me his new hibernation system for the watermakers, a semi automatic system. Its a tube where you put in the prefilter, put in the chemicals and then you switch on without pressure the system, that means you do not have to disconnect any houses. It was new for me, maybe other members know it already. Everything on spare parts are of curse on the dessalators website (also in eng.)
I heard from very good friends that Brisbane is a lovely sailing area and an interessting city.
Kind regards
Hanspeter
Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 01.03.2016 um 09:43 schrieb Colin Streeter colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Hi Hanspeter

Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately you miss-read what I wrote there, and on reading it again now I can see why, and that it is my fault and I should write things more clearly on this forum.

Anyhow, what I said (or meant to say) was that the davits cost us approximately 25% less than if I had ordered similar davits to be welded up and made for our boat by an Australian davit maker. Twice before I have had davits made here in Australia (once for an Island Packet 40, and the other for a South Coast 36 design) and each time we spent approximately $15,000 AUD on these. However neither were as well made and as large as the ones from Turkey so I assume such a set would be a fair bit more for an Amel 53, possibly around $20,000 AUD. Therefore Emerek's price was 25% cheaper even after all the duty etc.

Although Australia is a beautiful country to cruise in and visit, unfortunately it is a very expensive place for boating works and equipment and this is why we took the opportunity to add many many things onto our Amel such as a new 100 l/hr 240v/24v duo watermaker, a second full auto-pilot with quick change over switch, new radios, GPS, AIS, Sails,.......etc etc when we had our boat in the Canary Islands in 2011 as it was so very cheap there compared to doing all this work back here in Australia.

Also the solar panels and controllers were very reasonably priced - we got two 260w panels (total 540w) plus a Tracer MPPT controller with MT50 display all of which did not cost much at all (purchased new on E-Bay) and which we installed ourselves. So I would think that Kent's proposed budget of US$18,000 is actually a very realistic figure to have all this equipment added. I would be surprised if it cost him more that that.

Please don't think that you disturb me with your questions at all. Quite to the contrary questions from very experienced members such you on this site is of great benefit to us all especially since you have now more that 20 years experience sailing an Amel. This is what actually makes this site so valuable in my view.

Colin Streeter
Island Pearl II, Amel 53 #332
Brisbane


On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:33 AM, 'Hanspeter.baettig' hanspeter.baettig@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Dear Colin
Thanks for your interesting info. I have however a calculation problem, which I maybe make a mistske. In Kents mail he mentioned the cost for him for dingy/ solar arch (480 pw at least) about 18k US$.
You paid by Riza 25% less including all the extras (duty/transport/Vat)
I have it done also there. Its not Riza , its a exellent subcontracor , who did the job. And the very good electrician, paid by Riza, Tamar his name. 
That means you paid about 13500 US$ fot the complete arch incloudind the high performance batterie solar controler ?
I hope I do not disturbe you with my question, only I was wondering about the real cost.
Best regards
Hanspeter
Tamango 2, SM #16

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 29.02.2016 um 13:36 schrieb Colin Streeter colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Hi Kent
Sorry for the delay as I just noticed your post now, and also thanks to Bill for the feedback on the US2200 which seem like a good option too with a slightly smaller footprint and height than the Trojans. A couple answers to Kent's questions:

1) Your cost estimates are about right for the arch and panels. We, along with many others on this site went with Riza's arch and had it shipped to Australia. The cost, even after having to pay import duty, customs, Australian GST was still about 25% cheaper than if I had a local Brisbane s/s welder make it for me. More importantly though was the fine job Riza did on it as he has all the curves in the right places compared to what I local welder would have done. We constantly have people stop at our dock and enquire where we had it made.

2) The downside I referred to is moving the engine battery from the internal battery compartment to the engine room and making up a new fibreglass waterproof battery box to sit across the engine and genset bearers against the rear wall of the engine room to the RHS of the Racor fuel filter with a separate set of battery switches. Whilst there are advantages in having a shorter cable run to start the motors, we have always been extremely reluctant to change anything on our boat from the original design as the previous owner had taken such great care of the boat with everything in almost "as new" condition when we got it despite it's age. Such a decision for us is a major issue (as was the decision to put an arch on the boat) to think very carefully about however there would be huge benefits in having 675 amp hours available.

3)  I am absolutely no expert in these matters compared to all the other regular contributors on this forum however I did notice from all the discussions that Danny has had his batteries (in the above format) since 2009 and that they are still going strong which could possibly be linked to having over 650 amp hours of storage (on the older 8+1 battery design SM2000) and never needing to run it down much compared to the rest of us with 650 amp hours storage and his solar and wind generator setup. I note you also picked up on this potential benefit of more battery longevity with a potentially higher amp hour storage.

This is very tempting indeed but today I fitted the first 8 Trojan T 105's (we now have 450 amp hours instead of the previous 360) and it is clear that I cannot fit another 4 in there due to the height of the box at the aft end where the last 2 batteries would need to go being only 265mm and the batteries 270mm. We would not want a situation where there is no air circulation room above the batteries. There is however a huge amount of room remaining - in fact enough to put in an additional two spare 12v engine started batteries (which are lower) - but not the required height for the 6v's. Based on this we will now stay with the 450 amp hours in the interim and see how we go. 

Colin Streeter
Island Pearl II, Amel 53 #332
Brisbane

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 2:26 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hey Colin, et al,
I've been watching this thread with great interest.  It's great to hear all the different solutions to the Amel power  needs.  I'm still using the original configuration of 8 flooded lead acid 12v for the house bank.  They are inexpensive and easy to find anywhere.  I charge for an hour or a little more twice a day without supplemental solar or wind. I run the desalinator when charging  in clean water, and run the washer about twice a week.  I discharge to no lower than 24v, usually ~24.4v.

I'm really intrigued by the 12-6v house bank idea.  675 AH is significantly more than what I have, but not twice as much.  I would still have to charge twice a day without adding solar/wind.  The advantage seems to me to be discharging the batteries less, at least theoretically improving their longevity.    From experience of those who have done this, could I expect the batteries to last a lot longer (mine last 3-4 years now)?

If I were to add solar and/or wind I would want to add an arch/davits (on my wish list anyway) which would cost a total of ?$18-22K (is that a reasonable guesstimate for arch/davits/solar/ wind?).  Could I eliminate charging for the most part, or at least reduce my charging to once a day?  I would still need to run the generator to run the washer and watermaker which I would probably do at least twice a week.

I'm mostly thinking that the reduction in running the generator or added convenience would not justify the cost, unless adding solar and wind would mostly eliminate the need for daily charging.

Colin, you said you were going offline with this discussion after saying "Of course there are some downsides to this too".  Aside from the cost and added complexity and maintenance required when adding solar/wind, what other downsides do you anticipate?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Feb 26, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Colin Streeter colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Danny
Thanks, having done the measurements I can see how they would fit in with 3  banks of 4 x 6v if the engine battery is moved to the engine bay. This would leave plenty space in the the battery compartment and take our house battery  amps from 360 amps @ 24v (old 90amp 12v x 8 bat system) to 675amps @ 24v. Aĺl this in the smaller / older SM2000 8 house battery compartment.

Of course there are some downsides to this too. Will contact you direct as this thread has potentially gone on a little too long on the same topic now.

Colin Streeter
Island Pearl II, Amel 53 #332
Brisbane

On 27 Feb 2016 10:51 am, "simms simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Sorry Colin I missed the word "Trojan" in my last post. Pointless without it
Cheers
Danny


Sent from Samsung Mobile


-------- Original message --------
From: "simms simms@... [amelyachtowners]"
Date:27/02/2016 11:29 (GMT+12:00)
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries - What type house batteries to use what voltage charge from Solar/Wind?

Hi Colin.  Ocean pearl had 12 six volt golf cart batteries on purchase and they fitted. 
Cheers
Danny 
Sm 299 
Ocean pearl 


Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: "Colin Streeter colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date:27/02/2016  03:18  (GMT+12:00)
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries - What type house batteries to use & what voltage charge from Solar/Wind?

Thanks Eric for following up. I will look out for those ones too as I am keen to see the dimensions for fit.  The best price on a Trojan T-105 here today was AUD$275. There is another USA brand equivalent called a US2200 with the same physical dimensions and 7 AMPS more storage at $235 each. The battery salesman recons that these are just as good as the Trojans ... but I have not heard of these before so am not so sure?

Interestingly we took our battery compartment internal measurements this afternoon and the height is problematic as the compartment is 1610mm long x 385mm wide but the depth slopes slightly from 260mm at the af




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Grounding

Germain Jean-Pierre <jgermain@...>
 

Thank you for the info.

GL.

JPG



On 1 Mar 2016, at 12:34, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello!

Jean-Pierre
The intention is to connect the SSB to the provided ground the sintered plates on the skeg.
I have now identified that one of the YG cables attached to the bilge ground strap also was connected with the copper strip in the after lazaret. That's good, but it looks as the sintered plates have been neglected for a long time i.e a lot of deposit in the pors, when testing with my multimeter by putting the probes to the sintered plates it gives no indication of conductivity, Which I guess they should have given. further they seam to be stuck I can't loosen the screw else I would put them in White vinegar.
PAUL on S/Y Kerpa SM#259 

Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (8)


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Solar. Wind gem and arch

Patrick McAneny
 

Kent & Ian, I installed the same arch last year before heading to the Caribbean and it performed very well. We hoisted a 10,5 rib with 18 hp. outboard . We have three solar panels , a wind gen.,lights and wifi installed on it. I also added a diagonal . It only took about three hours to install and cost me about $1,200. It does come out of New Jersey and the company is Atlantic Towers . They ship it in a box in three parts which bolt together , has articulating mounts.
 Pat
SM Shenanigans
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: francesringley@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Mon, Feb 29, 2016 3:32 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Solar. Wind gem and arch

 
Kent, the company is in New Jersey I believe and they already have the measurements for the SM. Pretty straightforward to install. It took me two days. We have a 9 foot RIB and a 9.8hp 2~stroke outboard. I will lift both when at anchor but prefer to island hop with the outboard on the rail. I put the dinghy on the aft deck for longer passages.So far, with about 3000 bluewater miles experience with it, we are satisfied. I have added a cross rail for lateral support (does not come with the arch itself). Also, I will be installing a light gauge wire mizzen masthead stay that will split to each top corner of the arch to protect against any shocks. 

Ian
Loca Lola II
SM153


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Grounding

Paul Osterberg
 

Hello!
Jean-Pierre
The intention is to connect the SSB to the provided ground the sintered plates on the skeg.
I have now identified that one of the YG cables attached to the bilge ground strap also was connected with the copper strip in the after lazaret. That's good, but it looks as the sintered plates have been neglected for a long time i.e a lot of deposit in the pors, when testing with my multimeter by putting the probes to the sintered plates it gives no indication of conductivity, Which I guess they should have given. further they seam to be stuck I can't loosen the screw else I would put them in White vinegar.
PAUL on S/Y Kerpa SM#259 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Grounding

Germain Jean-Pierre <jgermain@...>
 

Hello Paul,

3. This is the ground for the BLU… HF in English.  It is connected to its own grounding plate on the starboard side of the skeg.

4.  BLU???  See above.  Gounding cable is Yellow/green .. by convention.  The HF has its own grounding plate; it is not connected to the anodes.

6. I would not do that but instead use the provided grounding plate.  Even if you have to rewire the ground.  HF installations are very susceptible to faults due to poor grounding.

Good luck.

Jean-Pierre
Eleuthera, SM 007.


On 1 Mar 2016, at 09:56, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I have problem to understand how the 24 v grounding system is arranged. (I’m not very experienced with advanced boat electrics as my previous boats has been much smaller and less complex)


1.     1. I have the ground strap that goes to one of the keel bolts in the grey water sump, where numerous of ground cables are connected.


2.      2. I have two sintered plates on the skeg, I do not know if they are both connected to each other but assume so as they are very close and almost in contact.

3. 

3.     3. There is a copper strip on the starboard side of after lazaret, which I assume is connected to the sintered plates on the skeg, Should it be a similar copper strip on the port side? Can’t find any but could be behind the gas locker.


4.     4. Behind the chart table I have a large yellow and green cable that is connected to the “BLU” terminal, together with a few other smaller yellow and green cables.  When disconnecting the ground cable from the “BLU” terminal, I can measure that it is connected to the copper strap in the lazaret. But it has even when disconnected with the “BLU” terminal contact with the ground strap in the grey water sump??? Should it be like that? 


         5. If I Permanently disconnect the Large cable from the copper strip on the “BLU” terminal do I need to put a ground cable from the engine room to the “BLU” terminal for the other ground cables that are attached to the “BLU” terminal


5.      6. I have in the engine room 4 yellow and green more heavy duty cables such as the one the “BLU” terminal behind the chart table, one of them goes after on Port side, but I have not yet been able to trace where, could that go to the after lazaret and be connected with the sintered plates?


6.      I need to separate the sintered plates on the skeg from the rest of the grounding system to have them as grounding for my SSB that I trying to install. But I can’t find out how.

All help is very appreciated

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259


 



Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (6)


Grounding

Paul Osterberg
 

I have problem to understand how the 24 v grounding system is arranged. (I’m not very experienced with advanced boat electrics as my previous boats has been much smaller and less complex)


1.     1. I have the ground strap that goes to one of the keel bolts in the grey water sump, where numerous of ground cables are connected.


2.      2. I have two sintered plates on the skeg, I do not know if they are both connected to each other but assume so as they are very close and almost in contact.

3. 

3.     3. There is a copper strip on the starboard side of after lazaret, which I assume is connected to the sintered plates on the skeg, Should it be a similar copper strip on the port side? Can’t find any but could be behind the gas locker.


4.     4. Behind the chart table I have a large yellow and green cable that is connected to the “BLU” terminal, together with a few other smaller yellow and green cables.  When disconnecting the ground cable from the “BLU” terminal, I can measure that it is connected to the copper strap in the lazaret. But it has even when disconnected with the “BLU” terminal contact with the ground strap in the grey water sump??? Should it be like that? 


         5. If I Permanently disconnect the Large cable from the copper strip on the “BLU” terminal do I need to put a ground cable from the engine room to the “BLU” terminal for the other ground cables that are attached to the “BLU” terminal


5.      6. I have in the engine room 4 yellow and green more heavy duty cables such as the one the “BLU” terminal behind the chart table, one of them goes after on Port side, but I have not yet been able to trace where, could that go to the after lazaret and be connected with the sintered plates?


6.      I need to separate the sintered plates on the skeg from the rest of the grounding system to have them as grounding for my SSB that I trying to install. But I can’t find out how.

All help is very appreciated

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries - What type house batteries to use & what voltage charge from Solar/Wind?

Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

Hi Hanspeter

Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately you miss-read what I wrote there, and on reading it again now I can see why, and that it is my fault and I should write things more clearly on this forum.

Anyhow, what I said (or meant to say) was that the davits cost us approximately 25% less than if I had ordered similar davits to be welded up and made for our boat by an Australian davit maker. Twice before I have had davits made here in Australia (once for an Island Packet 40, and the other for a South Coast 36 design) and each time we spent approximately $15,000 AUD on these. However neither were as well made and as large as the ones from Turkey so I assume such a set would be a fair bit more for an Amel 53, possibly around $20,000 AUD. Therefore Emerek's price was 25% cheaper even after all the duty etc.

Although Australia is a beautiful country to cruise in and visit, unfortunately it is a very expensive place for boating works and equipment and this is why we took the opportunity to add many many things onto our Amel such as a new 100 l/hr 240v/24v duo watermaker, a second full auto-pilot with quick change over switch, new radios, GPS, AIS, Sails,.......etc etc when we had our boat in the Canary Islands in 2011 as it was so very cheap there compared to doing all this work back here in Australia.

Also the solar panels and controllers were very reasonably priced - we got two 260w panels (total 540w) plus a Tracer MPPT controller with MT50 display all of which did not cost much at all (purchased new on E-Bay) and which we installed ourselves. So I would think that Kent's proposed budget of US$18,000 is actually a very realistic figure to have all this equipment added. I would be surprised if it cost him more that that.

Please don't think that you disturb me with your questions at all. Quite to the contrary questions from very experienced members such you on this site is of great benefit to us all especially since you have now more that 20 years experience sailing an Amel. This is what actually makes this site so valuable in my view.

Colin Streeter
Island Pearl II, Amel 53 #332
Brisbane


On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:33 AM, 'Hanspeter.baettig' hanspeter.baettig@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Dear Colin
Thanks for your interesting info. I have however a calculation problem, which I maybe make a mistske. In Kents mail he mentioned the cost for him for dingy/ solar arch (480 pw at least) about 18k US$.
You paid by Riza 25% less including all the extras (duty/transport/Vat)
I have it done also there. Its not Riza , its a exellent subcontracor , who did the job. And the very good electrician, paid by Riza, Tamar his name. 
That means you paid about 13500 US$ fot the complete arch incloudind the high performance batterie solar controler ?
I hope I do not disturbe you with my question, only I was wondering about the real cost.
Best regards
Hanspeter
Tamango 2, SM #16

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 29.02.2016 um 13:36 schrieb Colin Streeter colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Hi Kent
Sorry for the delay as I just noticed your post now, and also thanks to Bill for the feedback on the US2200 which seem like a good option too with a slightly smaller footprint and height than the Trojans. A couple answers to Kent's questions:

1) Your cost estimates are about right for the arch and panels. We, along with many others on this site went with Riza's arch and had it shipped to Australia. The cost, even after having to pay import duty, customs, Australian GST was still about 25% cheaper than if I had a local Brisbane s/s welder make it for me. More importantly though was the fine job Riza did on it as he has all the curves in the right places compared to what I local welder would have done. We constantly have people stop at our dock and enquire where we had it made.

2) The downside I referred to is moving the engine battery from the internal battery compartment to the engine room and making up a new fibreglass waterproof battery box to sit across the engine and genset bearers against the rear wall of the engine room to the RHS of the Racor fuel filter with a separate set of battery switches. Whilst there are advantages in having a shorter cable run to start the motors, we have always been extremely reluctant to change anything on our boat from the original design as the previous owner had taken such great care of the boat with everything in almost "as new" condition when we got it despite it's age. Such a decision for us is a major issue (as was the decision to put an arch on the boat) to think very carefully about however there would be huge benefits in having 675 amp hours available.

3)  I am absolutely no expert in these matters compared to all the other regular contributors on this forum however I did notice from all the discussions that Danny has had his batteries (in the above format) since 2009 and that they are still going strong which could possibly be linked to having over 650 amp hours of storage (on the older 8+1 battery design SM2000) and never needing to run it down much compared to the rest of us with 650 amp hours storage and his solar and wind generator setup. I note you also picked up on this potential benefit of more battery longevity with a potentially higher amp hour storage.

This is very tempting indeed but today I fitted the first 8 Trojan T 105's (we now have 450 amp hours instead of the previous 360) and it is clear that I cannot fit another 4 in there due to the height of the box at the aft end where the last 2 batteries would need to go being only 265mm and the batteries 270mm. We would not want a situation where there is no air circulation room above the batteries. There is however a huge amount of room remaining - in fact enough to put in an additional two spare 12v engine started batteries (which are lower) - but not the required height for the 6v's. Based on this we will now stay with the 450 amp hours in the interim and see how we go. 

Colin Streeter
Island Pearl II, Amel 53 #332
Brisbane

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 2:26 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hey Colin, et al,
I've been watching this thread with great interest.  It's great to hear all the different solutions to the Amel power  needs.  I'm still using the original configuration of 8 flooded lead acid 12v for the house bank.  They are inexpensive and easy to find anywhere.  I charge for an hour or a little more twice a day without supplemental solar or wind. I run the desalinator when charging  in clean water, and run the washer about twice a week.  I discharge to no lower than 24v, usually ~24.4v.

I'm really intrigued by the 12-6v house bank idea.  675 AH is significantly more than what I have, but not twice as much.  I would still have to charge twice a day without adding solar/wind.  The advantage seems to me to be discharging the batteries less, at least theoretically improving their longevity.    From experience of those who have done this, could I expect the batteries to last a lot longer (mine last 3-4 years now)?

If I were to add solar and/or wind I would want to add an arch/davits (on my wish list anyway) which would cost a total of ?$18-22K (is that a reasonable guesstimate for arch/davits/solar/ wind?).  Could I eliminate charging for the most part, or at least reduce my charging to once a day?  I would still need to run the generator to run the washer and watermaker which I would probably do at least twice a week.

I'm mostly thinking that the reduction in running the generator or added convenience would not justify the cost, unless adding solar and wind would mostly eliminate the need for daily charging.

Colin, you said you were going offline with this discussion after saying "Of course there are some downsides to this too".  Aside from the cost and added complexity and maintenance required when adding solar/wind, what other downsides do you anticipate?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Feb 26, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Colin Streeter colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Danny
Thanks, having done the measurements I can see how they would fit in with 3  banks of 4 x 6v if the engine battery is moved to the engine bay. This would leave plenty space in the the battery compartment and take our house battery  amps from 360 amps @ 24v (old 90amp 12v x 8 bat system) to 675amps @ 24v. Aĺl this in the smaller / older SM2000 8 house battery compartment.

Of course there are some downsides to this too. Will contact you direct as this thread has potentially gone on a little too long on the same topic now.

Colin Streeter
Island Pearl II, Amel 53 #332
Brisbane

On 27 Feb 2016 10:51 am, "simms simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Sorry Colin I missed the word "Trojan" in my last post. Pointless without it
Cheers
Danny


Sent from Samsung Mobile


-------- Original message --------
From: "simms simms@... [amelyachtowners]"
Date:27/02/2016 11:29 (GMT+12:00)
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries - What type house batteries to use what voltage charge from Solar/Wind?

Hi Colin.  Ocean pearl had 12 six volt golf cart batteries on purchase and they fitted. 
Cheers
Danny 
Sm 299 
Ocean pearl 


Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: "Colin Streeter colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date:27/02/2016  03:18  (GMT+12:00)

Thanks Eric for following up. I will look out for those ones too as I am keen to see the dimensions for fit.  The best price on a Trojan T-105 here today was AUD$275. There is another USA brand equivalent called a US2200 with the same physical dimensions and 7 AMPS more storage at $235 each. The battery salesman recons that these are just as good as the Trojans ... but I have not heard of these before so am not so sure?

Interestingly we took our battery compartment internal measurements this afternoon and the height is problematic as the compartment is 1610mm long x 385mm wide but the depth slopes slightly from 260mm at the af




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Solar. Wind gem and arch

Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

I agree with your comments Dennis. Solar certainly beats wind hands down in amps charging when the sun is shining, but there is certainly value in having both if that is an option for you. We have had both solar and two wind generators on our last cruising boat and will certainly be adding at least one wind generator before we actually go cruising on the Amel next year.

Agreed that solar pushes so many more amps out than wind over the sunny period each day, however on our last boat, an Island Packet, we had both an AirX, and Air Breeze (noisy compared to the models available now!) and 240w Solar. Instead of trying to tuck right into anchorages as we always enjoyed doing before (the Island Packet only had 4ft6 draft), we came to enjoy anchoring out in the wind at night, and on a few occasions actually woke up to fully charges batteries even after running the TV, sound system, lights and mast head light till late.

Colin Streeter
Island Pearl II, Amel53 #332
Brisbane


On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Dennis Johns sbmesasailor@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Some days there is sun and no wind, other days (nights) there is wind and no sun.  This being the case, I question the value of a comparative study.  If you don't have sunshine, the data used to decide to not have a wind generator doesn't do you much good.

I have installed both solar panels and an Air Breeze wind generator on my Maramu.  I am about 2000 miles from completing my circumnavigation (basically following the wake of BeBe in the last five years), so I've experienced a variety of climactic conditions as well.

My first comment is that solar is definitely the most efficient source for renewable energy.  That being said, my experience has been that this great source is not a particularly reliable source for the majority portion of each day. Unless you are indeed tilting your panels on an hourly basis, the panels do not provide anywhere near peak output until around 10:00am and then fall off considerably at 3:00pm -that's five hours out of 24 of significant output.  Add to this overcast conditions and sail or mast/boom shadow (depending on point of sail or swing at anchor) and this "great source" has considerable limitations.  If you have installed your panels on a stern arch then this may be partially mitigated but then you have added the cost of the arch in your cost/benefit analysis.  Season of the year and  location on the globe plays a critical role in solar panel efficiency/effectiveness.

My second comment is that while a wind generator is a less efficient source of renewable energy, it can operate 24/7 and the investment is considerably less (my experience).  Seasons and location on the globe again play significant roles relative to the availability of wind but to a lesser extent in my opinion.  I couldn't count the number of times my house batteries were fully charged after a night of constant wind of 15 knots at anchor in the many places I visited.

My last comment is that solar panels and wind generators both have their limitations and therefore should be considered complementary.  Having one system and not the other will necessarily result in more occurrences of having to rely on your engine or genset than if you had both systems.  We all can agree that cruising demands redundancy in most systems so why not renewable energy sources?  While recently viewing Jimmy Cornell's last adventure through the Northwest Passage, I noticed that he relies on both solar and wind energy generation.  That would seem to be a significant endorsement for this level of redundancy.

Dennis Johns
s/v Libertad
Spice Island, Grenada
Maramu #121







--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Solar. Wind gem and arch

Ann-Sofie Svanberg <kanalmamman@...>
 

Paul,
Just a humble request. Can you please let the e-mail you are responding to be left in your respond? It is very difficult to follow your answers.

/Annsofie
S/Y Lady Annila, SM232


Skickat från min iPad

29 feb. 2016 kl. 20:46 skrev osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

I have as you might have seen similar ide, however will not go for tenax, as I think the load can be rather high especially on the male part. I will have lashing points sewed in to my bimini top (Sunbrella +) and lash them, alternatively having velcro that will fold over the edge of the panel , I have not yet discussed with the canvas man yet. I hope we can have them up most of the time, even at rather high wind

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259
 


Re: Solar. Wind gem and arch

sbmesasailor
 

Some days there is sun and no wind, other days (nights) there is wind and no sun.  This being the case, I question the value of a comparative study.  If you don't have sunshine, the data used to decide to not have a wind generator doesn't do you much good.

I have installed both solar panels and an Air Breeze wind generator on my Maramu.  I am about 2000 miles from completing my circumnavigation (basically following the wake of BeBe in the last five years), so I've experienced a variety of climactic conditions as well.

My first comment is that solar is definitely the most efficient source for renewable energy.  That being said, my experience has been that this great source is not a particularly reliable source for the majority portion of each day. Unless you are indeed tilting your panels on an hourly basis, the panels do not provide anywhere near peak output until around 10:00am and then fall off considerably at 3:00pm -that's five hours out of 24 of significant output.  Add to this overcast conditions and sail or mast/boom shadow (depending on point of sail or swing at anchor) and this "great source" has considerable limitations.  If you have installed your panels on a stern arch then this may be partially mitigated but then you have added the cost of the arch in your cost/benefit analysis.  Season of the year and  location on the globe plays a critical role in solar panel efficiency/effectiveness.

My second comment is that while a wind generator is a less efficient source of renewable energy, it can operate 24/7 and the investment is considerably less (my experience).  Seasons and location on the globe again play significant roles relative to the availability of wind but to a lesser extent in my opinion.  I couldn't count the number of times my house batteries were fully charged after a night of constant wind of 15 knots at anchor in the many places I visited.

My last comment is that solar panels and wind generators both have their limitations and therefore should be considered complementary.  Having one system and not the other will necessarily result in more occurrences of having to rely on your engine or genset than if you had both systems.  We all can agree that cruising demands redundancy in most systems so why not renewable energy sources?  While recently viewing Jimmy Cornell's last adventure through the Northwest Passage, I noticed that he relies on both solar and wind energy generation.  That would seem to be a significant endorsement for this level of redundancy.

Dennis Johns
s/v Libertad
Spice Island, Grenada
Maramu #121