Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Port Jib Sheet Winch Malfunction

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Kent, I think that you will find the breaker for the port cockpit winch is on the forward bulkhead of the engine room. The breaker for the starboard winch is in the ceiling of the companion way to the aft cabin. Look forward to your conclusion on this as Ocean Pearl is the same.
Cheers
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl


From: "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]"
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Wednesday, 3 August 2016 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Port Jib Sheet Winch Malfunction

 
Thanks, Bill.
So the relay for the port winch is in the coaming in the top of the cockpit locker.  And the starboard one above the passageway ceiling?  A pic of the inside of that box and closeup of the relay would've helpful.

Thanks,
Kent


On Aug 2, 2016, at 8:37 AM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Tom, 

What you say is not correct.  The switch on the panel controls the power to the COIL side of the main relay ONLY.  The power side of the relay is controlled by breakers above the companionway up high inside the cockpit locker.

If the main relay sticks closed, the winch will continue to run and turning of the switch on the electrical panel will NOT stop it! It can happen… it happened to the previous owners of Harmonie.  The only way to stop it is to shut off the power side breaker.  If it is your port side winch, that requires emptying the cockpit locker, climbing inside and reaching up.  NOT something you want to do in an emergency.

This is one of the reasons you should NEVER, EVER use the cockpit winches under power to go up the mast. 

Kent,

I am looking at my lewmar relay boxes above the companionway, but I see no identifying part number, and when I open it up I see no part numbers on the relays either…  Would you like pictures?


Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Highlands, NJ
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Aug 2, 2016, at 07:56, peacock@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hi Kent,
As I always start off, "I'm no electrician", so...

I don't think it's a stuck relay. If you are wired correctly, then even if you had a stuck relay, nothing should work if the 24V breaker is off. You will have to trace the wires. 
A stuck relay would only be a problem if the 24V breaker were on, then, obviously, a big problem. Several years ago an owner lost an arm due to that. That's all the more reason to trace the wire, as what you're describing now leaves you with no ability to kill the power to that winch in an emergency (such as a stuck relay).

Tom Peacock
SM Aletes #240
Rock Hall, MD





Also check the winch motors.

Eric Freedman
 

I forgot to mention that while you are up looking at the winch motors. See if the motor moves when actuated. The motors on Kimberlite had the bolts holding them on to the winch break making a mess of the winch motors.

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 12:07 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] the circuit breaker locations to turn off the primary winches.

 

 

I am doing this from memory,

As I am not on the boat at the moment.

 

There are two separate circuits that control the Electric winches.

One is powered by the DC panel which operates the solenoids that close the high amperage solenoid in the windlass control box. This solenoid is operated by either the switch mounted next to the helm or the coaming push button. The power for this comes from the DC panel in the galley. Lower right hand button I believe the middle one.

 

 

There is a large circuit breaker mounted above the midships bunk ceiling that controls the Starboard winch power ( and a circuit breaker for the dinghy inflator in the stern lazarette) .

 

The circuit breaker for the Port winch is mounted on the electrical panel on the forward engine room bulkhead it is above the fresh water pump and the AC water pump. On this panel are also mounted the toilet pump breakers, The bilge pump breaker, the anchor wash breaker, and some other breakers for optional equipment.

 

If you turn off these big breakers your Winches should not work. Next to these breaker panels are also mounted the Lewmar control boxes clearly marked LEWMAR.

 

Fair Winds’

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

There must be a circuit breaker in the circuit that carries the 50 + amps to the motor. A simple low amperage solenoid will not do the job. There is also a thermal overload mounted to the motors. I encountered this when I tried hauling the Drogue in after our hurricane. It takes a few minutes for the overload to cool off and allow the winch to operate again.  There has to be a circuit breaker that will turn off the power to the primary winches otherwise there is a fire hazard.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 11:15 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Port Jib Sheet Winch Malfunction

 

 

Kent,

 

You have a mystery of the universe!  I don’t have a good answer, but I’ll rattle off some random thoughts that might tickle somebody’s brain to come up with a better idea...

 

The circuit that powers the winch motor and the circuit that closes the relays are not interconnected in any way, so any kind of cross talk between them seems very unlikely.

 

I assume that BOTH winch switches (the one mounted on the cockpit coaming and at the helm panel) both actuate the winch even when the breaker is off?

 

Although on my boat that circuit breaker is labeled “Winches”,  it is actually the circuit for all of the relay coils on the boat.  Winches, furling motors, and windlass.  Have you checked any of these others to see if they also operate when the breaker is off?  They should not.

 

A few places to look…  On my electrical panel there are four wires common crimped into two terminals* on the winch circuit breaker.  The power is distributed on that panel by an uninsulated braided conductor.  It is possible that this braid could have been pushed around and is shorted across the breaker--although I’d expect that to work ALL of the winches…

 

If there is 24 volts present in the port side winch circuit and NOT the other circuits, then it must be wired (intentionally or otherwise) to some other supply point.  Even if it was being supplied by a short circuit somewhere, all of the winch circuits would be supplied by the common connection point at the breaker.

 

My best guess:  A connection has come adrift at the back of the panel and is touching the supply wiring…  or someone has rewired it in a “creative” way.  Neither seem likely, but it is an unlikely problem, so the solution is probably unlikely too!

 

I can’t wait to hear the real answer!

 

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."

 

* Multiple wires into one terminal? Why did Amel do this? Why is this better than a terminal block?? On my boat the record is for 18, yes 18!, ground wires crimped into one terminal.  Argh! A real nightmare when you have to replace ONE circuit.

 

 

 

 

On Aug 2, 2016, at 10:19, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Thanks Bill.  Not that I know of.  But this may not be a new problem.  I may have just discovered something that has been this way since I bought the boat.

So if there is a single relay for the port winch motor, and the switches (control panel and coaming button) activate that relay, with the power to the switch off, it shouldn't work.  Perhaps the galley breaker powers the relays (+), and the switches make contact on the negative side of the circuit.  Then if the breaker is stuck in the closed (on) position, the switch would still close the circuit to the relay and activate the motor.

I'm no electrician either, but that's the only way I can see that would result in what's happening.
Anyone else want to chime in here?

Thanks again

Kent

SM243

Kristy



On Aug 2, 2016, at 9:14 AM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Tom,

 

The breaker on the control panel does two things, it shuts off power to the control circuit, i.e.: the cockpit switches and relay coils.  As you say, that prevents accidental operation of the winches.   That breaker also provides circuit overload protection for that part of the system.

 

It would be impossible to protect the power side of the system (which draws >50 amps) with the same breaker that protects the control side (something like 1 or 2 amps)

 

Now having said that… and having gone back and re-read Kent’s original post…  I have to say I do not understand his problem either.  There is no other relay in the circuit that would explain his problem. Sounds like the port side control wire bypasses the circuit breaker—somehow!  Strange…

 

Kent, do you know if anybody has done any re-wiing of that system in the past?

 

 

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."

 

 

 

 

On Aug 2, 2016, at 08:59, peacock@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Bill,

As I said, I'm no electrician...

You are correct. That said, I guess I don't really understand Kent's problem. If the relay were stuck in the on position, then it should be on all the time, assuming he hasn't turned the breaker on the winch off? Or are there two relays in the circuit? As I now understand it (which may or may not be correct), all that the 24 breaker controls is the power to the cockpit switches. The only purpose in turning that breaker off is to prevent someone's hand resting on a switch and activating the winch (or windlass, etc). N'est-ce pa? Please educate me if that's wrong. Thanks. 

 

Tom Peacock

SM Aletes 240

Rock Hall, MD

 

 

 

 

 


Re: the circuit breaker locations to turn off the primary winches.

Eric Freedman
 

I am doing this from memory,

As I am not on the boat at the moment.

 

There are two separate circuits that control the Electric winches.

One is powered by the DC panel which operates the solenoids that close the high amperage solenoid in the windlass control box. This solenoid is operated by either the switch mounted next to the helm or the coaming push button. The power for this comes from the DC panel in the galley. Lower right hand button I believe the middle one.

 

 

There is a large circuit breaker mounted above the midships bunk ceiling that controls the Starboard winch power ( and a circuit breaker for the dinghy inflator in the stern lazarette) .

 

The circuit breaker for the Port winch is mounted on the electrical panel on the forward engine room bulkhead it is above the fresh water pump and the AC water pump. On this panel are also mounted the toilet pump breakers, The bilge pump breaker, the anchor wash breaker, and some other breakers for optional equipment.

 

If you turn off these big breakers your Winches should not work. Next to these breaker panels are also mounted the Lewmar control boxes clearly marked LEWMAR.

 

Fair Winds’

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

There must be a circuit breaker in the circuit that carries the 50 + amps to the motor. A simple low amperage solenoid will not do the job. There is also a thermal overload mounted to the motors. I encountered this when I tried hauling the Drogue in after our hurricane. It takes a few minutes for the overload to cool off and allow the winch to operate again.  There has to be a circuit breaker that will turn off the power to the primary winches otherwise there is a fire hazard.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 11:15 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Port Jib Sheet Winch Malfunction

 

 

Kent,

 

You have a mystery of the universe!  I don’t have a good answer, but I’ll rattle off some random thoughts that might tickle somebody’s brain to come up with a better idea...

 

The circuit that powers the winch motor and the circuit that closes the relays are not interconnected in any way, so any kind of cross talk between them seems very unlikely.

 

I assume that BOTH winch switches (the one mounted on the cockpit coaming and at the helm panel) both actuate the winch even when the breaker is off?

 

Although on my boat that circuit breaker is labeled “Winches”,  it is actually the circuit for all of the relay coils on the boat.  Winches, furling motors, and windlass.  Have you checked any of these others to see if they also operate when the breaker is off?  They should not.

 

A few places to look…  On my electrical panel there are four wires common crimped into two terminals* on the winch circuit breaker.  The power is distributed on that panel by an uninsulated braided conductor.  It is possible that this braid could have been pushed around and is shorted across the breaker--although I’d expect that to work ALL of the winches…

 

If there is 24 volts present in the port side winch circuit and NOT the other circuits, then it must be wired (intentionally or otherwise) to some other supply point.  Even if it was being supplied by a short circuit somewhere, all of the winch circuits would be supplied by the common connection point at the breaker.

 

My best guess:  A connection has come adrift at the back of the panel and is touching the supply wiring…  or someone has rewired it in a “creative” way.  Neither seem likely, but it is an unlikely problem, so the solution is probably unlikely too!

 

I can’t wait to hear the real answer!

 

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."

 

* Multiple wires into one terminal? Why did Amel do this? Why is this better than a terminal block?? On my boat the record is for 18, yes 18!, ground wires crimped into one terminal.  Argh! A real nightmare when you have to replace ONE circuit.

 

 

 

 

On Aug 2, 2016, at 10:19, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Thanks Bill.  Not that I know of.  But this may not be a new problem.  I may have just discovered something that has been this way since I bought the boat.

So if there is a single relay for the port winch motor, and the switches (control panel and coaming button) activate that relay, with the power to the switch off, it shouldn't work.  Perhaps the galley breaker powers the relays (+), and the switches make contact on the negative side of the circuit.  Then if the breaker is stuck in the closed (on) position, the switch would still close the circuit to the relay and activate the motor.

I'm no electrician either, but that's the only way I can see that would result in what's happening.
Anyone else want to chime in here?

Thanks again

Kent

SM243

Kristy



On Aug 2, 2016, at 9:14 AM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Tom,

 

The breaker on the control panel does two things, it shuts off power to the control circuit, i.e.: the cockpit switches and relay coils.  As you say, that prevents accidental operation of the winches.   That breaker also provides circuit overload protection for that part of the system.

 

It would be impossible to protect the power side of the system (which draws >50 amps) with the same breaker that protects the control side (something like 1 or 2 amps)

 

Now having said that… and having gone back and re-read Kent’s original post…  I have to say I do not understand his problem either.  There is no other relay in the circuit that would explain his problem. Sounds like the port side control wire bypasses the circuit breaker—somehow!  Strange…

 

Kent, do you know if anybody has done any re-wiing of that system in the past?

 

 

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."

 

 

 

 

On Aug 2, 2016, at 08:59, peacock@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Bill,

As I said, I'm no electrician...

You are correct. That said, I guess I don't really understand Kent's problem. If the relay were stuck in the on position, then it should be on all the time, assuming he hasn't turned the breaker on the winch off? Or are there two relays in the circuit? As I now understand it (which may or may not be correct), all that the 24 breaker controls is the power to the cockpit switches. The only purpose in turning that breaker off is to prevent someone's hand resting on a switch and activating the winch (or windlass, etc). N'est-ce pa? Please educate me if that's wrong. Thanks. 

 

Tom Peacock

SM Aletes 240

Rock Hall, MD

 

 

 

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] the circuit breaker locations to turn off the primary winches.

Eric Freedman
 

I have photos of both of the circuit breaker panels if anyone is interested.

Please send me your email address.

Also the windlass panel showing the toggle switch.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

Kimberlite at optonline dot net

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 12:07 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] the circuit breaker locations to turn off the primary winches.

 

 

I am doing this from memory,

As I am not on the boat at the moment.

 

There are two separate circuits that control the Electric winches.

One is powered by the DC panel which operates the solenoids that close the high amperage solenoid in the windlass control box. This solenoid is operated by either the switch mounted next to the helm or the coaming push button. The power for this comes from the DC panel in the galley. Lower right hand button I believe the middle one.

 

 

There is a large circuit breaker mounted above the midships bunk ceiling that controls the Starboard winch power ( and a circuit breaker for the dinghy inflator in the stern lazarette) .

 

The circuit breaker for the Port winch is mounted on the electrical panel on the forward engine room bulkhead it is above the fresh water pump and the AC water pump. On this panel are also mounted the toilet pump breakers, The bilge pump breaker, the anchor wash breaker, and some other breakers for optional equipment.

 

If you turn off these big breakers your Winches should not work. Next to these breaker panels are also mounted the Lewmar control boxes clearly marked LEWMAR.

 

Fair Winds’

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

There must be a circuit breaker in the circuit that carries the 50 + amps to the motor. A simple low amperage solenoid will not do the job. There is also a thermal overload mounted to the motors. I encountered this when I tried hauling the Drogue in after our hurricane. It takes a few minutes for the overload to cool off and allow the winch to operate again.  There has to be a circuit breaker that will turn off the power to the primary winches otherwise there is a fire hazard.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 11:15 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Port Jib Sheet Winch Malfunction

 

 

Kent,

 

You have a mystery of the universe!  I don’t have a good answer, but I’ll rattle off some random thoughts that might tickle somebody’s brain to come up with a better idea...

 

The circuit that powers the winch motor and the circuit that closes the relays are not interconnected in any way, so any kind of cross talk between them seems very unlikely.

 

I assume that BOTH winch switches (the one mounted on the cockpit coaming and at the helm panel) both actuate the winch even when the breaker is off?

 

Although on my boat that circuit breaker is labeled “Winches”,  it is actually the circuit for all of the relay coils on the boat.  Winches, furling motors, and windlass.  Have you checked any of these others to see if they also operate when the breaker is off?  They should not.

 

A few places to look…  On my electrical panel there are four wires common crimped into two terminals* on the winch circuit breaker.  The power is distributed on that panel by an uninsulated braided conductor.  It is possible that this braid could have been pushed around and is shorted across the breaker--although I’d expect that to work ALL of the winches…

 

If there is 24 volts present in the port side winch circuit and NOT the other circuits, then it must be wired (intentionally or otherwise) to some other supply point.  Even if it was being supplied by a short circuit somewhere, all of the winch circuits would be supplied by the common connection point at the breaker.

 

My best guess:  A connection has come adrift at the back of the panel and is touching the supply wiring…  or someone has rewired it in a “creative” way.  Neither seem likely, but it is an unlikely problem, so the solution is probably unlikely too!

 

I can’t wait to hear the real answer!

 

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."

 

* Multiple wires into one terminal? Why did Amel do this? Why is this better than a terminal block?? On my boat the record is for 18, yes 18!, ground wires crimped into one terminal.  Argh! A real nightmare when you have to replace ONE circuit.

 

 

 

 

On Aug 2, 2016, at 10:19, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Thanks Bill.  Not that I know of.  But this may not be a new problem.  I may have just discovered something that has been this way since I bought the boat.

So if there is a single relay for the port winch motor, and the switches (control panel and coaming button) activate that relay, with the power to the switch off, it shouldn't work.  Perhaps the galley breaker powers the relays (+), and the switches make contact on the negative side of the circuit.  Then if the breaker is stuck in the closed (on) position, the switch would still close the circuit to the relay and activate the motor.

I'm no electrician either, but that's the only way I can see that would result in what's happening.
Anyone else want to chime in here?

Thanks again

Kent

SM243

Kristy



On Aug 2, 2016, at 9:14 AM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Tom,

 

The breaker on the control panel does two things, it shuts off power to the control circuit, i.e.: the cockpit switches and relay coils.  As you say, that prevents accidental operation of the winches.   That breaker also provides circuit overload protection for that part of the system.

 

It would be impossible to protect the power side of the system (which draws >50 amps) with the same breaker that protects the control side (something like 1 or 2 amps)

 

Now having said that… and having gone back and re-read Kent’s original post…  I have to say I do not understand his problem either.  There is no other relay in the circuit that would explain his problem. Sounds like the port side control wire bypasses the circuit breaker—somehow!  Strange…

 

Kent, do you know if anybody has done any re-wiing of that system in the past?

 

 

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."

 

 

 

 

On Aug 2, 2016, at 08:59, peacock@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Bill,

As I said, I'm no electrician...

You are correct. That said, I guess I don't really understand Kent's problem. If the relay were stuck in the on position, then it should be on all the time, assuming he hasn't turned the breaker on the winch off? Or are there two relays in the circuit? As I now understand it (which may or may not be correct), all that the 24 breaker controls is the power to the cockpit switches. The only purpose in turning that breaker off is to prevent someone's hand resting on a switch and activating the winch (or windlass, etc). N'est-ce pa? Please educate me if that's wrong. Thanks. 

 

Tom Peacock

SM Aletes 240

Rock Hall, MD

 

 

 

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Windlass power disconnect?

Eric Freedman
 

There is a toggle switch in the forward cabin, port cabinet which has the circuit breaker and a toggle switch to turn off the windlass.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 11:50 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Windlass power disconnect?

 

 

Is there a way to remove electrical power from the anchor windlass on an SM without also disconnecting the jib furler? 

 

I always considered it good seamanship to depower a windlass when underway to avoid any chance of accidental activation.  I know of at least one boat who had a switch short circuit after taking a wave over the bow in rough weather, and the running windlass did all kinds of damage before they could get it shut down.

 

I know that loosening the clutch on the gypsy will avoid the most serious issues, but still an electrical disconnect just seems like a good idea.

 

Anybody have a switch fail closed on the anchor windlass system?  If so, how did you stop it?

 

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."

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the circuit breaker locations to turn off the primary winches.

Eric Freedman
 

I am doing this from memory,

As I am not on the boat at the moment.

 

There are two separate circuits that control the Electric winches.

One is powered by the DC panel which operates the solenoids that close the high amperage solenoid in the windlass control box. This solenoid is operated by either the switch mounted next to the helm or the coaming push button. The power for this comes from the DC panel in the galley. Lower right hand button I believe the middle one.

 

 

There is a large circuit breaker mounted above the midships bunk ceiling that controls the Starboard winch power ( and a circuit breaker for the dinghy inflator in the stern lazarette) .

 

The circuit breaker for the Port winch is mounted on the electrical panel on the forward engine room bulkhead it is above the fresh water pump and the AC water pump. On this panel are also mounted the toilet pump breakers, The bilge pump breaker, the anchor wash breaker, and some other breakers for optional equipment.

 

If you turn off these big breakers your Winches should not work. Next to these breaker panels are also mounted the Lewmar control boxes clearly marked LEWMAR.

 

Fair Winds’

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

There must be a circuit breaker in the circuit that carries the 50 + amps to the motor. A simple low amperage solenoid will not do the job. There is also a thermal overload mounted to the motors. I encountered this when I tried hauling the Drogue in after our hurricane. It takes a few minutes for the overload to cool off and allow the winch to operate again.  There has to be a circuit breaker that will turn off the power to the primary winches otherwise there is a fire hazard.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 11:15 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Port Jib Sheet Winch Malfunction

 

 

Kent,

 

You have a mystery of the universe!  I don’t have a good answer, but I’ll rattle off some random thoughts that might tickle somebody’s brain to come up with a better idea...

 

The circuit that powers the winch motor and the circuit that closes the relays are not interconnected in any way, so any kind of cross talk between them seems very unlikely.

 

I assume that BOTH winch switches (the one mounted on the cockpit coaming and at the helm panel) both actuate the winch even when the breaker is off?

 

Although on my boat that circuit breaker is labeled “Winches”,  it is actually the circuit for all of the relay coils on the boat.  Winches, furling motors, and windlass.  Have you checked any of these others to see if they also operate when the breaker is off?  They should not.

 

A few places to look…  On my electrical panel there are four wires common crimped into two terminals* on the winch circuit breaker.  The power is distributed on that panel by an uninsulated braided conductor.  It is possible that this braid could have been pushed around and is shorted across the breaker--although I’d expect that to work ALL of the winches…

 

If there is 24 volts present in the port side winch circuit and NOT the other circuits, then it must be wired (intentionally or otherwise) to some other supply point.  Even if it was being supplied by a short circuit somewhere, all of the winch circuits would be supplied by the common connection point at the breaker.

 

My best guess:  A connection has come adrift at the back of the panel and is touching the supply wiring…  or someone has rewired it in a “creative” way.  Neither seem likely, but it is an unlikely problem, so the solution is probably unlikely too!

 

I can’t wait to hear the real answer!

 

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."

 

* Multiple wires into one terminal? Why did Amel do this? Why is this better than a terminal block?? On my boat the record is for 18, yes 18!, ground wires crimped into one terminal.  Argh! A real nightmare when you have to replace ONE circuit.

 

 

 

 

On Aug 2, 2016, at 10:19, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Thanks Bill.  Not that I know of.  But this may not be a new problem.  I may have just discovered something that has been this way since I bought the boat.

So if there is a single relay for the port winch motor, and the switches (control panel and coaming button) activate that relay, with the power to the switch off, it shouldn't work.  Perhaps the galley breaker powers the relays (+), and the switches make contact on the negative side of the circuit.  Then if the breaker is stuck in the closed (on) position, the switch would still close the circuit to the relay and activate the motor.

I'm no electrician either, but that's the only way I can see that would result in what's happening.
Anyone else want to chime in here?

Thanks again

Kent

SM243

Kristy



On Aug 2, 2016, at 9:14 AM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Tom,

 

The breaker on the control panel does two things, it shuts off power to the control circuit, i.e.: the cockpit switches and relay coils.  As you say, that prevents accidental operation of the winches.   That breaker also provides circuit overload protection for that part of the system.

 

It would be impossible to protect the power side of the system (which draws >50 amps) with the same breaker that protects the control side (something like 1 or 2 amps)

 

Now having said that… and having gone back and re-read Kent’s original post…  I have to say I do not understand his problem either.  There is no other relay in the circuit that would explain his problem. Sounds like the port side control wire bypasses the circuit breaker—somehow!  Strange…

 

Kent, do you know if anybody has done any re-wiing of that system in the past?

 

 

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."

 

 

 

 

On Aug 2, 2016, at 08:59, peacock@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Bill,

As I said, I'm no electrician...

You are correct. That said, I guess I don't really understand Kent's problem. If the relay were stuck in the on position, then it should be on all the time, assuming he hasn't turned the breaker on the winch off? Or are there two relays in the circuit? As I now understand it (which may or may not be correct), all that the 24 breaker controls is the power to the cockpit switches. The only purpose in turning that breaker off is to prevent someone's hand resting on a switch and activating the winch (or windlass, etc). N'est-ce pa? Please educate me if that's wrong. Thanks. 

 

Tom Peacock

SM Aletes 240

Rock Hall, MD

 

 

 

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] illustration of the Basic Maintenance of the Lofrans Tigres Windlass

Duane Siegfri
 

Alexandre,

Just to follow up, I used the gear puller on the chain gypsy.  While it seemed to be welded in place when using screwdrivers and hammer, the gear puller took it off with almost no effort.  The outer clutch plate then literally fell out of the chain gypsy.  

Now I will have to resort to screwdrivers and tap, tap, tap for the inner clutch cone...

Duane


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Windlass power disconnect?

karkauai
 

Im not on the boat for several weeks.  I'll look and report when I get back. Sure seems like there should be separate breakers.
Kent


On Aug 2, 2016, at 8:40 PM, Stephen Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Same on my hull 72. You have an early SM2K Kent, and it may be different. 

Steve
Aloha SM 72
Grenada

On Aug 2, 2016, at 19:06, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

On my boat there is one 100A breaker and a switch.  Both disconnect power to BOTH the jib fuler and the windlass.



On Aug 2, 2016, at 18:55, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Isn't there a separate breaker in the forward port locker in the Vee berth?
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Aug 2, 2016, at 11:50 AM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Is there a way to remove electrical power from the anchor windlass on an SM without also disconnecting the jib furler? 


I always considered it good seamanship to depower a windlass when underway to avoid any chance of accidental activation.  I know of at least one boat who had a switch short circuit after taking a wave over the bow in rough weather, and the running windlass did all kinds of damage before they could get it shut down.


I know that loosening the clutch on the gypsy will avoid the most serious issues, but still an electrical disconnect just seems like a good idea.


Anybody have a switch fail closed on the anchor windlass system?  If so, how did you stop it?


Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."


fetchinketch






Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Windlass power disconnect?

Stephen Davis
 

Same on my hull 72. You have an early SM2K Kent, and it may be different. 

Steve
Aloha SM 72
Grenada

On Aug 2, 2016, at 19:06, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

On my boat there is one 100A breaker and a switch.  Both disconnect power to BOTH the jib fuler and the windlass.



On Aug 2, 2016, at 18:55, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Isn't there a separate breaker in the forward port locker in the Vee berth?
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Aug 2, 2016, at 11:50 AM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Is there a way to remove electrical power from the anchor windlass on an SM without also disconnecting the jib furler? 


I always considered it good seamanship to depower a windlass when underway to avoid any chance of accidental activation.  I know of at least one boat who had a switch short circuit after taking a wave over the bow in rough weather, and the running windlass did all kinds of damage before they could get it shut down.


I know that loosening the clutch on the gypsy will avoid the most serious issues, but still an electrical disconnect just seems like a good idea.


Anybody have a switch fail closed on the anchor windlass system?  If so, how did you stop it?


Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."


fetchinketch






Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Windlass power disconnect?

Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

On my boat there is one 100A breaker and a switch.  Both disconnect power to BOTH the jib fuler and the windlass.


On Aug 2, 2016, at 18:55, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Isn't there a separate breaker in the forward port locker in the Vee berth?
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Aug 2, 2016, at 11:50 AM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Is there a way to remove electrical power from the anchor windlass on an SM without also disconnecting the jib furler? 


I always considered it good seamanship to depower a windlass when underway to avoid any chance of accidental activation.  I know of at least one boat who had a switch short circuit after taking a wave over the bow in rough weather, and the running windlass did all kinds of damage before they could get it shut down.


I know that loosening the clutch on the gypsy will avoid the most serious issues, but still an electrical disconnect just seems like a good idea.


Anybody have a switch fail closed on the anchor windlass system?  If so, how did you stop it?


Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."


fetchinketch






Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Windlass power disconnect?

karkauai
 

Isn't there a separate breaker in the forward port locker in the Vee berth?
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Aug 2, 2016, at 11:50 AM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Is there a way to remove electrical power from the anchor windlass on an SM without also disconnecting the jib furler? 


I always considered it good seamanship to depower a windlass when underway to avoid any chance of accidental activation.  I know of at least one boat who had a switch short circuit after taking a wave over the bow in rough weather, and the running windlass did all kinds of damage before they could get it shut down.


I know that loosening the clutch on the gypsy will avoid the most serious issues, but still an electrical disconnect just seems like a good idea.


Anybody have a switch fail closed on the anchor windlass system?  If so, how did you stop it?


Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."

fetchinketch



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Windlass power disconnect?

Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

They are there on my boat.  One switches both the windlass and the jib fuler, the other switches just the furler.  As far as I can see there is no windlass only disconnect, nor is one shown on Amel's electrical drawings.

If nobody has a better idea, I’ll likely add a second breaker just for the windlass.


On Aug 2, 2016, at 16:11, peacock@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hi Bill,
On our boat there is a toggle switch in the port side forward locker in the V-berth. I believe there are also breakers there as well, can't remember if they also control the windlass or something else. 
Tom Peacock
SM Aletes #240
Rock Hall, MD



Re: Amel Maramu offered for sale.

jjjk12s@...
 

Curt,

 

I already own a Maramu but had a look at your photos out of interest. Congratulations on having such a nicely kept and updated boat.

 

Regards

John


Re: Windlass power disconnect?

peacock@...
 

Hi Bill,
On our boat there is a toggle switch in the port side forward locker in the V-berth. I believe there are also breakers there as well, can't remember if they also control the windlass or something else. 
Tom Peacock
SM Aletes #240
Rock Hall, MD


Amel Maramu offered for sale.

curtepp
 


We have completed 3 years of Caribbean cruising, crossing from Puerto Rico to Grenada and back again, visiting all the islands in between.

We are deciding what to do next with our 1987 Amel Maramu, Languedoc.  One of our options is to sell Languedoc and continue cruising in another area.  Since Amel sailboats are popular in the Caribbean we are offering Languedoc for sale.

We are asking $160,000.  Languedoc is in hurricane storage at Puerto del Rey marina, Fajardo, Puerto Rico.  Languedoc is in very good condition, fully equipped, and ready to go anywhere.

Relevant info, pictures, specifications, and our 2013 survey are available online at our website, boativated.com.  Inquiries can be directed to "curt at boativated.com".



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] main sail furler gearbox

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Thanks Pat, I was afraid of that
Regards
Danny



From: "Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@aol..com [amelyachtowners]"
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Tuesday, 2 August 2016 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] main sail furler gearbox

 
Danny , I spoke to Maud last Thursday and she told me she was leaving on Holiday. Unlike in the US. ,I think when they go on vacation the whole company may shut down and their vacations may be a month long , I am not sure about that ,but I know Maud is not there.
Pat 


-----Original Message-----
From: simms simms@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Tue, Aug 2, 2016 5:20 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] main sail furler gearbox

 
Thank you Robin. Mine is a Leroy somer unfortunately. I have had little success so far. Maud in la Rochelle has yet to reply and Amel Caribbean referred me back to them so if any one had a good contact please let me know.
Regards
Danny
Sm 299
Ocean Pearl
Sent from my Vodafone Smart
On Aug 2, 2016 7:33 PM, "robin6658@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
if it is a bonfiglioli (as mine is) - you can get an original from sotek.it for about 80 euros, however yours might be a different brand as your sm is much newer then mine
robin
sm #56



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] main sail furler gearbox

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Thanks Steve, Ill give Riza a try.
Regards
Danny



From: "Stephen Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners]"
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Tuesday, 2 August 2016 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] main sail furler gearbox

 
Hi Danny,

I know the Leroy Somer is not interchangeable with the bonfiglioli box, as I have had both in my hands before and compared. 

I suspect Amel is on holiday at the moment, but you might try Riza at Emek Marine in Turkey. At times he has had both of the gearboxes in stock. Contact info below. 

Steve Davis
Aloha SM 72
Grenada

Riza email: cagdas@...
Mobile:  +90 532 495 65 39

On Aug 2, 2016, at 05:23, simms simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Hi again robin. Any chance of sending me a photo of yours to simms@... perhaps it may fit.
Regards
Danny
Sm 299
Ocean pearl
Sent from my Vodafone Smart
On Aug 2, 2016 7:33 PM, "robin6658@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
if it is a bonfiglioli (as mine is) - you can get an original from sotek.it for about 80 euros, however yours might be a different brand as your sm is much newer then mine
robin
sm #56



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] main sail furler gearbox

Stephen Davis
 

Danny,

I got the Leroy Somer gearbox I sold to Mike from Emek Marine in 2014. Give them a try, as they may have one. 

Steve Davis
Aloha SM 72
Grenada

On Aug 2, 2016, at 12:30, 'Mike Ondra' mdondra@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Danny,

I got the replacement courtesy of Steve Davis.  As I recall he had purchased it by mistake (he needed the Bonfiglioni) quite a few years back and has been carrying it in his ship stores since. I had posted sourcing information from Leroy Somer a few month back if you dig into the postings. The lead time was several months and Steve was able to get his to me in a week.

Anyway I will take some pictures of the gears as they are now. I do have pictures of them from 8 years ago during my first servicing of the seals to compare for wear. If you send me your email address, I will send the pics to you.

 

Mike

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 11:12 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] main sail furler gearbox

 

 

Hi Mike. That would be am option. Only concern is the age. The gears may be worn down s bit. Where did you get your replacement. I  am cruising in fiji
Regards
Danny

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On Aug 3, 2016 12:32 AM, "Mike Ondra mdondra@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Danny. I just replaced our Leroy Somer gearbox with the one thanks to Steve Davis. I had cracked the housing whilst trying to remove the shaft. I believe the gears to be good and you are welcome to them if you wish to rebuild yours. The bearings and seals are quite standard and easy to find. If you are interested let me know and I can send you pictures of the gears. Also where are you?

Mike Ondra

Aletes SM #240

Rock Hall, MD

610-442-7551


On Aug 2, 2016, at 7:20 AM, Stephen Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Danny,

 

I know the Leroy Somer is not interchangeable with the bonfiglioli box, as I have had both in my hands before and compared. 

 

I suspect Amel is on holiday at the moment, but you might try Riza at Emek Marine in Turkey. At times he has had both of the gearboxes in stock. Contact info below. 

 

Steve Davis

Aloha SM 72

Grenada

 

Riza email: cagdas@...

Mobile:  +90 532 495 65 39


On Aug 2, 2016, at 05:23, simms simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi again robin. Any chance of sending me a photo of yours to simms@... perhaps it may fit.
Regards
Danny
Sm 299
Ocean pearl

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On Aug 2, 2016 7:33 PM, "robin6658@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

if it is a bonfiglioli (as mine is) - you can get an original from sotek.it for about 80 euros, however yours might be a different brand as your sm is much newer then mine

robin

sm #56


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] main sail furler gearbox

Mike Ondra
 

Danny,

I got the replacement courtesy of Steve Davis.  As I recall he had purchased it by mistake (he needed the Bonfiglioni) quite a few years back and has been carrying it in his ship stores since. I had posted sourcing information from Leroy Somer a few month back if you dig into the postings. The lead time was several months and Steve was able to get his to me in a week.

Anyway I will take some pictures of the gears as they are now. I do have pictures of them from 8 years ago during my first servicing of the seals to compare for wear. If you send me your email address, I will send the pics to you.

 

Mike

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 11:12 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] main sail furler gearbox

 

 

Hi Mike. That would be am option. Only concern is the age. The gears may be worn down s bit. Where did you get your replacement. I  am cruising in fiji
Regards
Danny

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On Aug 3, 2016 12:32 AM, "Mike Ondra mdondra@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Danny. I just replaced our Leroy Somer gearbox with the one thanks to Steve Davis. I had cracked the housing whilst trying to remove the shaft. I believe the gears to be good and you are welcome to them if you wish to rebuild yours. The bearings and seals are quite standard and easy to find. If you are interested let me know and I can send you pictures of the gears. Also where are you?

Mike Ondra

Aletes SM #240

Rock Hall, MD

610-442-7551


On Aug 2, 2016, at 7:20 AM, Stephen Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Danny,

 

I know the Leroy Somer is not interchangeable with the bonfiglioli box, as I have had both in my hands before and compared. 

 

I suspect Amel is on holiday at the moment, but you might try Riza at Emek Marine in Turkey. At times he has had both of the gearboxes in stock. Contact info below. 

 

Steve Davis

Aloha SM 72

Grenada

 

Riza email: cagdas@...

Mobile:  +90 532 495 65 39


On Aug 2, 2016, at 05:23, simms simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi again robin. Any chance of sending me a photo of yours to simms@... perhaps it may fit.
Regards
Danny
Sm 299
Ocean pearl

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On Aug 2, 2016 7:33 PM, "robin6658@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

if it is a bonfiglioli (as mine is) - you can get an original from sotek.it for about 80 euros, however yours might be a different brand as your sm is much newer then mine

robin

sm #56


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] illustration of the Basic Maintenance of the Lofrans Tigres Windlass

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good morning Duane,

I am glad to inspired you !!!
I also had lots of trouble removing the out erclutch (and everything in fact).
This was my fault, as since I purchase the vessel (late 2012) I never serviced the windlass…

It took me several hours, using “gentle” brute force.
First I used lots of ZEP 45 (penetrating oil similar to WD40).

Yes, I use small screw drivers to slowly make a gap between the outer clutch and the gipsey/chain wheel.
I used the emergency handle to rotate the gipsy then use the screw driver again.
Just to remove the outer clutch might have take me an hour…

You will have the same issue with the gipsey/chain wheel.
Thinking back, I could have used a large bearing or prop puller for the gipsy.
I used simultaneously 2 screw drivers to evenly move it. I also used a long screw driver and slowly hammer (and still rotate using the emergency handle)

Same difficulty for the gipsey holder.
I used simultaneously 2 screw drivers to slowly push it away.
(Could not use a bearing puller there)

Same on the other side for the aluminum Drum.
(Could not use a bearing puller there without taking the risk to damaged the thread even if you put a longer bolt)

It was may be 5 hours to put it apart.
Then 2 hours cleaning the next day.
Putting everything back (once clean) was so was. Just slide on like butter!


Personally, instead to remove entirely the inner/chain gypsy/outer clutch I would follow what the maintenance manual suggest.
The key will not interfere, BUT it will require more force and will have more friction on the key.

Good luck, be patient and keep us posted!

Sincerely, Alexandre



--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8/2/16, sailor63109@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] illustration of the Basic Maintenance of the Lofrans Tigres Windlass
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 2, 2016, 10:05 AM


 









Alexandre,
You've inspired me to tackle
this job!  A question: I am having a lot of trouble
removing the outer clutch cone.  Did you simply hammer
screwdrivers in the very tight joint between it and the
chain gypsy?  I've put a lot of WD-40 in and will let
that work for a bit and try again.
Is it possible to remove the
entirety of the inner/chain gypsy/outer clutch cone or does
the key interefere with this?
Thanks,Duane









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p#yiv2369791566attach-count span {
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#yiv2369791566