Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Insurance

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Paul,

I had that issue and solved it by offering a rigging inspection report. The insurance company waived the 10 years with the report. All boats and all rigging is not equal.

Bill
BeBe

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 5:42 AM, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hello!

just found out that our insurance company would not insure our boat for sailing out of Europe as the standing rig is older than 10 years old. I have no time to change now. Has anyone of you any suggestion on good insurance companies for a European boat sailing outside Europe?

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259



Insurance

Paul Osterberg
 

Hello!

just found out that our insurance company would not insure our boat for sailing out of Europe as the standing rig is older than 10 years old. I have no time to change now. Has anyone of you any suggestion on good insurance companies for a European boat sailing outside Europe?

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259


Re: One wire to many?

Paul Osterberg
 

Hello not yet, some higher priority  work right now, will let you now when ready
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259


Re: One wire to many?

svperegrinus@yahoo.com
 

Hello Paul and Bill,

Did the splice suggested by Bill work?  I have a similar-looking pump, a Jabsco Sensor-Max variable speed control with a solid state pressure sensor.  People installed these pumps to be able to remove the water pressure accumulator;  our boat has had this pump since August 2012 or before and I made sure to buy a spare before these were discontinued in 2015.

Anyway, I have the same "one wire too many" issue and have been afraid of splicing into the wire going from the Jabsco switch to the Jabsco motor... I figure the sensor probably sends either a pulsed signal or variable voltage to the motor, as it does, in fact, run at different speeds depending on the number of water taps open or how much you open them, and I am not sure what either of those cases would do to the little light on the 24V panel... maybe someone else has tried this before?

Cheerio,

Peregrinus
SM2K n. 350 (2002)
At anchor, Ajaccio (Corsica)


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Upgrading all electronics

Herbert Lackner
 

hi enio,

maybe not relevant to your current problem, but eventually some helpful thoughts.

I spent some time in finding grounding issues :-) on different santorins (including our own). what I found out where to put attention to:

fischer panda is normally not isolated but there is an upgrade kit available by fischer panda (relais plus ready made cabling) that makes the fischer panda genset "amel-friendly".  I installed it on KALI MERA and it works fine. without the kit you will have battery-minus connected to seawater when running the genset.

you should check the cabling at the shaft alternator, there is a strong possibility that the isolation of the cables break and a connection from ground to the housing occurs, causing a ground leak (battery connection to bonding system, positive or negative)

any changes in the alternator-system (new alternator or new shaft alternator, additional alternator...) can cause ground problems because most alternators are not isolated and therefore should not be used on an amel.

and if an SSB has been installed on a santorin that has not dedicated SSB grounding then this is also a typical thing to pay some attention to when looking for ground leaks (e.g. direct connection of grounding to the rudder...).

and (for sure not relevant to your actual problem but worth to mention): the original bonding - copper ground strap to the keel will break after about 10 -15 years, so should be checked also... :-)

best regards

herbert
SN120, KALI MERA, Trinidad


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] strong

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

I believe that Rick's gmail account has been hijacked.

I would not click on the link.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 7:36 PM, rickgrimes1@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Can not show full mail body.
You will view it by pressing here

Yahoogroups error msgID: 795031 (Wed Aug 10 20:36:21 2016)



strong

Rick Grimes
 

Can not show full mail body.
You will view it by pressing here

Yahoogroups error msgID: 795031 (Wed Aug 10 20:36:21 2016)


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Upgrading all electronics

Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Kent,

It’s not simple…

Connecting the charger safety ground can be done to either the AC safety ground wire, or the bonding wires, assuming the bonding wires are big enough to take full current from the AC system.  Since those two systems are interconnected, they are are pretty much the same.  

There is no “DC Ground” as you seem to think of it  There is only a DC negative.  The reason for this is that 24Volts is not going to kill you, although, DC current running around on you boat can cause havoc as you well know!

Stray DC current certainly is the culprit in electrolytic damage. “Stray” AC current isn’t so much a corrosion issue as it is a serious safety problem.  The issue when connected to  shorepower is DC currents that flow over the AC Safety Ground wire when plugged into shore power. In this case every boat in the marina is grounded to the same point on shore.  Any problem on any boat can result in DC currents flowing between boats, through the water and back on the ground wire.

Now it gets more complex… electrolytic and galvanic corrosion are not exactly the same, although people frequently use the terms interchangeably.

Electrolytic corrosion is caused by imposed electrical currents.  Galvanic corrosion is caused by an electrical current generated by the presence of dissimilar metals in an electrolyte. No external voltage source is needed. Galvanic voltages are low, usually less that 1 volt and are blocked completely by a galvanic isolator (hence the name…)  Stray currents can be up to 24 volts.  If they are greater than about 1 volt the galvanic isolator does not work.

One other difference.  The isolator blocks galvanic action between different boats.  It will not protect you from electrolytic corrosion caused by stray current generated by your OWN boat that do not flow through the AC safety ground wire.  And an isolator does nothing at all when not in a marina.



On Aug 10, 2016, at 14:06, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Well crap, I guess I still don't understand it all.  So IF the charger has an AC only ground , it should be connected to the bonding system.  What about the DC ground (I assume a charger would have a DC ground too)?  I'm not talking about the DC output negative, I'm talking about something that would become hot with DC if there was an internal short on the output side. Is that run back to the battery negative?  If the safety concern is that either AC or DC current could shock you if the case became "hot", how could you separate the two?

Stray DC current is supposed to be the culprit most of the time in electrolytic damage.  Low current leakage that isn't enough to trip the breaker, but enough that over time it destroys your underwater metals.  Stray AC current can do it, too, particularly when on faulty shore power without a galvanic isolator.  Do I at least understand that correctly?

Sigh,
Kent, "Rusty", "Patch"
SM 243
Kristy



On Aug 10, 2016, at 1:49 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,


It is not as simple as saying it is "OK as long as you  don't connect the ground [of the charger] to the bonding system

You can not, and should not, remove all connections between the bonding system and the AC safety ground.  Those connections are there by Amel design—not by accident and are shown on Amel’s electrical drawings.  See Olivier’s comments on this matter.  Because of the connections between them, the bonding circuit and AC safety ground circuits really are all part of the same system, in normal operation carrying almost no current, but equalizing voltages.

Because there are always going to be connections between the AC safety ground and the bonding system, ANY connection between the DC negative and the AC safety ground is the same as connecting the DC negative to the bonding system. This should NOT be done--anywhere--on an Amel.  

The apparent problem with some battery chargers is that they make such a connection between DC negative and AC safety ground internally.  These are the kinds we need to avoid.  On a proper marine battery chargers this connection would not be part of the design.  It would be bad practice on any boat to have multiple connections between DC negative and AC safety ground scattered around the boat and always bad to have the charger case be part of the DC negative circuit. I am pretty sure that such a piece of equipment would not be considered ABYC compliant.

An important point to remember is that the AC Safety ground—in normal operation—should not carry any current at all.  It is only there to drain off hazardous voltages caused by short circuits to equipment cases.  Almost always, when this happens the current draw is enough to trip the circuit breaker, shutting down the faulty circuit.

Recommending that the case of a battery charger (or inverter, or any piece of equipment connected to AC line voltage) should not be grounded should not be done lightly.  Most of the time, that ground is an important safety issue.  If there was an internal short the case of the charger could become “hot” at full line voltage.  If the case is not grounded that condition can continue until the next thing to touch it (You?) carries 220 volts to ground. 

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Highlands, NJ
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Aug 10, 2016, at 08:50, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 I'm looking for a new charger now, too.  My Charles 60 A charger doesn't have an equalization cycle.  So far I've only been looking at chargers recommended by Amel owners on this forum, and for a 75-80A 24V charger with equalization mode only the Victron Skylla-i meets my needs.  I'm also looking at MasterVolt but a few owners have had bad experiences.

I think any good marine charger is OK as long as you  don't connect the ground to the bonding system.

I think ideally we want a charger with separate AC and DC grounds.  That way you could connect the AC ground to the boat's AC ground, and the DC ground to the battery negative.  Unfortunately they all seem to have a common ground that ABYC standard wants you to connect to the boat's "earth".

Are you just dropping a lead into the water and measuring between that lead and the bonding system?

It sounds like there is a fault in you charger.  But if it isn't connected to your bonding system, there is another connection to your bonding system that is carrying current to the water.  It could be on either the AC or DC circuit.
I'd be interested in what you find if you disconnect the AC and DC wires from the charger and measure resistance between each wire and the bonding system with the circuit breaker off, and again with CB on.  That should help you determine where to look for the connection.

On my boat I was never able to completely eliminate all connections to ground.  Your 220V air conditioner water pump, for example, is connected to the bonding system.  My generator case is also connected to the bonding system. (Read Olivier's earlier comments on this.)
I purchased a silver/silver chloride reference electrode to monitor hull potential and do that once a month, and every time I drop anchor or tie up to a marina dock.
Let us know what you find.
Kent
SM243
Kristy



On Aug 10, 2016, at 4:49 AM, rossienio@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Kent,

 the Sterling ProCharge N is only charger, it was  installed  time ago, without ground connection, but I have seen the problem only now, touching the mooring wet of salt water, while the boat is connected  to  the shore power of the Marina and with the C.B. on.
I can see the voltage leak with the tester on AC (2V) and DC (2.5V) connecting metallic parts of the boat with sea water.
Now the generator (Fischer Panda) is totally isolated, with all wires ( in and out ) disconnected so I' using now only solar panels.
I am going to do all the measures suggested by Olivier, but I think that the Sterling is not suitable for our boats.
Could  you give me some indication about Battery Charger  suitable to boats with the electrical system isolated, like Amel?
I also istalled an alternator-to-battery charger Sterling, do you think that it too could not be ok  for the Amels?
Here I'm not able to find an Amel-savvy electrician. 
Good wind







Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Upgrading all electronics

Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

James,

Yes, that test you describe will tell you.  

All (properly wired) boats should have a “insulated return” which means that the DC negative should NOT show continuity with the case or the AC safety ground. That would apply to all DC powered equipment, not just battery chargers!

All boats (should) have insulated returns.  Boats built to the full ABYC standard have one (and ONLY one) connection between the DC negative, the AC safety ground and the bonding circuit.  Amel’s have a “floating ground” which means that the bonding circuit, and the AC safety ground are connected to each other, but NOWHERE connected to the DC ground.

Perfectly good boats are built either way. But you need to know what kind of system you are working on and not make connections that shouldn’t be there.  Bad connections in either system can lead to serious corrosion issues.

And we haven’t even started talking about the AC neutral wire yet!

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Highlands, NJ
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Aug 10, 2016, at 14:58, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Bill Kinney,


   Is it enough to do a continuity test between the negative lead on a prospective battery charger and the AC ground to determine if a particular charger is ok to use on an Amel?    If so, should such a test give an infinite ohm reading?

   If I am understanding the concerns correctly, we want the bonding system to be as completely isolated from the battery negative (and positive) as possible?  Case bonding of 220V appliances is ok so long as the connection between AC ground and any DC ground wires that are a part of that appliance are not present?  

Thanks,

James

Amel Maramu "Sueno",  #220
On Aug 10, 2016, at 3:06 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Well crap, I guess I still don't understand it all.  So IF the charger has an AC only ground , it should be connected to the bonding system.  What about the DC ground (I assume a charger would have a DC ground too)?  I'm not talking about the DC output negative, I'm talking about something that would become hot with DC if there was an internal short on the output side. Is that run back to the battery negative?  If the safety concern is that either AC or DC current could shock you if the case became "hot", how could you separate the two?

Stray DC current is supposed to be the culprit most of the time in electrolytic damage.  Low current leakage that isn't enough to trip the breaker, but enough that over time it destroys your underwater metals.  Stray AC current can do it, too, particularly when on faulty shore power without a galvanic isolator.  Do I at least understand that correctly?

Sigh,
Kent, "Rusty", "Patch"
SM 243
Kristy



On Aug 10, 2016, at 1:49 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,


It is not as simple as saying it is "OK as long as you  don't connect the ground [of the charger] to the bonding system

You can not, and should not, remove all connections between the bonding system and the AC safety ground.  Those connections are there by Amel design—not by accident and are shown on Amel’s electrical drawings.  See Olivier’s comments on this matter.  Because of the connections between them, the bonding circuit and AC safety ground circuits really are all part of the same system, in normal operation carrying almost no current, but equalizing voltages.

Because there are always going to be connections between the AC safety ground and the bonding system, ANY connection between the DC negative and the AC safety ground is the same as connecting the DC negative to the bonding system. This should NOT be done--anywhere--on an Amel.  

The apparent problem with some battery chargers is that they make such a connection between DC negative and AC safety ground internally.  These are the kinds we need to avoid.  On a proper marine battery chargers this connection would not be part of the design.  It would be bad practice on any boat to have multiple connections between DC negative and AC safety ground scattered around the boat and always bad to have the charger case be part of the DC negative circuit. I am pretty sure that such a piece of equipment would not be considered ABYC compliant.

An important point to remember is that the AC Safety ground—in normal operation—should not carry any current at all.  It is only there to drain off hazardous voltages caused by short circuits to equipment cases.  Almost always, when this happens the current draw is enough to trip the circuit breaker, shutting down the faulty circuit.

Recommending that the case of a battery charger (or inverter, or any piece of equipment connected to AC line voltage) should not be grounded should not be done lightly.  Most of the time, that ground is an important safety issue.  If there was an internal short the case of the charger could become “hot” at full line voltage.  If the case is not grounded that condition can continue until the next thing to touch it (You?) carries 220 volts to ground. 

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Highlands, NJ
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Aug 10, 2016, at 08:50, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 I'm looking for a new charger now, too.  My Charles 60 A charger doesn't have an equalization cycle.  So far I've only been looking at chargers recommended by Amel owners on this forum, and for a 75-80A 24V charger with equalization mode only the Victron Skylla-i meets my needs.  I'm also looking at MasterVolt but a few owners have had bad experiences.

I think any good marine charger is OK as long as you  don't connect the ground to the bonding system.

I think ideally we want a charger with separate AC and DC grounds.  That way you could connect the AC ground to the boat's AC ground, and the DC ground to the battery negative.  Unfortunately they all seem to have a common ground that ABYC standard wants you to connect to the boat's "earth".

Are you just dropping a lead into the water and measuring between that lead and the bonding system?

It sounds like there is a fault in you charger.  But if it isn't connected to your bonding system, there is another connection to your bonding system that is carrying current to the water.  It could be on either the AC or DC circuit.
I'd be interested in what you find if you disconnect the AC and DC wires from the charger and measure resistance between each wire and the bonding system with the circuit breaker off, and again with CB on.  That should help you determine where to look for the connection.

On my boat I was never able to completely eliminate all connections to ground.  Your 220V air conditioner water pump, for example, is connected to the bonding system.  My generator case is also connected to the bonding system. (Read Olivier's earlier comments on this.)
I purchased a silver/silver chloride reference electrode to monitor hull potential and do that once a month, and every time I drop anchor or tie up to a marina dock.
Let us know what you find.
Kent
SM243
Kristy



On Aug 10, 2016, at 4:49 AM, rossienio@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Kent,

 the Sterling ProCharge N is only charger, it was  installed  time ago, without ground connection, but I have seen the problem only now, touching the mooring wet of salt water, while the boat is connected  to  the shore power of the Marina and with the C.B. on.
I can see the voltage leak with the tester on AC (2V) and DC (2.5V) connecting metallic parts of the boat with sea water.
Now the generator (Fischer Panda) is totally isolated, with all wires ( in and out ) disconnected so I' using now only solar panels.
I am going to do all the measures suggested by Olivier, but I think that the Sterling is not suitable for our boats.
Could  you give me some indication about Battery Charger  suitable to boats with the electrical system isolated, like Amel?
I also istalled an alternator-to-battery charger Sterling, do you think that it too could not be ok  for the Amels?
Here I'm not able to find an Amel-savvy electrician. 
Good wind









Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Upgrading all electronics

James Alton
 

Bill Kinney,

   Is it enough to do a continuity test between the negative lead on a prospective battery charger and the AC ground to determine if a particular charger is ok to use on an Amel?    If so, should such a test give an infinite ohm reading?

   If I am understanding the concerns correctly, we want the bonding system to be as completely isolated from the battery negative (and positive) as possible?  Case bonding of 220V appliances is ok so long as the connection between AC ground and any DC ground wires that are a part of that appliance are not present?  

Thanks,

James

Amel Maramu "Sueno",  #220

On Aug 10, 2016, at 3:06 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Well crap, I guess I still don't understand it all.  So IF the charger has an AC only ground , it should be connected to the bonding system.  What about the DC ground (I assume a charger would have a DC ground too)?  I'm not talking about the DC output negative, I'm talking about something that would become hot with DC if there was an internal short on the output side. Is that run back to the battery negative?  If the safety concern is that either AC or DC current could shock you if the case became "hot", how could you separate the two?

Stray DC current is supposed to be the culprit most of the time in electrolytic damage.  Low current leakage that isn't enough to trip the breaker, but enough that over time it destroys your underwater metals.  Stray AC current can do it, too, particularly when on faulty shore power without a galvanic isolator.  Do I at least understand that correctly?

Sigh,
Kent, "Rusty", "Patch"
SM 243
Kristy



On Aug 10, 2016, at 1:49 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,


It is not as simple as saying it is "OK as long as you  don't connect the ground [of the charger] to the bonding system

You can not, and should not, remove all connections between the bonding system and the AC safety ground.  Those connections are there by Amel design—not by accident and are shown on Amel’s electrical drawings.  See Olivier’s comments on this matter.  Because of the connections between them, the bonding circuit and AC safety ground circuits really are all part of the same system, in normal operation carrying almost no current, but equalizing voltages.

Because there are always going to be connections between the AC safety ground and the bonding system, ANY connection between the DC negative and the AC safety ground is the same as connecting the DC negative to the bonding system. This should NOT be done--anywhere--on an Amel.  

The apparent problem with some battery chargers is that they make such a connection between DC negative and AC safety ground internally.  These are the kinds we need to avoid.  On a proper marine battery chargers this connection would not be part of the design.  It would be bad practice on any boat to have multiple connections between DC negative and AC safety ground scattered around the boat and always bad to have the charger case be part of the DC negative circuit. I am pretty sure that such a piece of equipment would not be considered ABYC compliant.

An important point to remember is that the AC Safety ground—in normal operation—should not carry any current at all.  It is only there to drain off hazardous voltages caused by short circuits to equipment cases.  Almost always, when this happens the current draw is enough to trip the circuit breaker, shutting down the faulty circuit.

Recommending that the case of a battery charger (or inverter, or any piece of equipment connected to AC line voltage) should not be grounded should not be done lightly.  Most of the time, that ground is an important safety issue.  If there was an internal short the case of the charger could become “hot” at full line voltage.  If the case is not grounded that condition can continue until the next thing to touch it (You?) carries 220 volts to ground. 

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Highlands, NJ
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Aug 10, 2016, at 08:50, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 I'm looking for a new charger now, too.  My Charles 60 A charger doesn't have an equalization cycle.  So far I've only been looking at chargers recommended by Amel owners on this forum, and for a 75-80A 24V charger with equalization mode only the Victron Skylla-i meets my needs.  I'm also looking at MasterVolt but a few owners have had bad experiences.

I think any good marine charger is OK as long as you  don't connect the ground to the bonding system.

I think ideally we want a charger with separate AC and DC grounds.  That way you could connect the AC ground to the boat's AC ground, and the DC ground to the battery negative.  Unfortunately they all seem to have a common ground that ABYC standard wants you to connect to the boat's "earth".

Are you just dropping a lead into the water and measuring between that lead and the bonding system?

It sounds like there is a fault in you charger.  But if it isn't connected to your bonding system, there is another connection to your bonding system that is carrying current to the water.  It could be on either the AC or DC circuit.
I'd be interested in what you find if you disconnect the AC and DC wires from the charger and measure resistance between each wire and the bonding system with the circuit breaker off, and again with CB on.  That should help you determine where to look for the connection.

On my boat I was never able to completely eliminate all connections to ground.  Your 220V air conditioner water pump, for example, is connected to the bonding system.  My generator case is also connected to the bonding system. (Read Olivier's earlier comments on this.)
I purchased a silver/silver chloride reference electrode to monitor hull potential and do that once a month, and every time I drop anchor or tie up to a marina dock.
Let us know what you find.
Kent
SM243
Kristy



On Aug 10, 2016, at 4:49 AM, rossienio@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Kent,

 the Sterling ProCharge N is only charger, it was  installed  time ago, without ground connection, but I have seen the problem only now, touching the mooring wet of salt water, while the boat is connected  to  the shore power of the Marina and with the C.B. on.
I can see the voltage leak with the tester on AC (2V) and DC (2.5V) connecting metallic parts of the boat with sea water.
Now the generator (Fischer Panda) is totally isolated, with all wires ( in and out ) disconnected so I' using now only solar panels.
I am going to do all the measures suggested by Olivier, but I think that the Sterling is not suitable for our boats.
Could  you give me some indication about Battery Charger  suitable to boats with the electrical system isolated, like Amel?
I also istalled an alternator-to-battery charger Sterling, do you think that it too could not be ok  for the Amels?
Here I'm not able to find an Amel-savvy electrician. 
Good wind







Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Upgrading all electronics

karkauai
 

Well crap, I guess I still don't understand it all.  So IF the charger has an AC only ground , it should be connected to the bonding system.  What about the DC ground (I assume a charger would have a DC ground too)?  I'm not talking about the DC output negative, I'm talking about something that would become hot with DC if there was an internal short on the output side. Is that run back to the battery negative?  If the safety concern is that either AC or DC current could shock you if the case became "hot", how could you separate the two?

Stray DC current is supposed to be the culprit most of the time in electrolytic damage.  Low current leakage that isn't enough to trip the breaker, but enough that over time it destroys your underwater metals.  Stray AC current can do it, too, particularly when on faulty shore power without a galvanic isolator.  Do I at least understand that correctly?

Sigh,
Kent, "Rusty", "Patch"
SM 243
Kristy



On Aug 10, 2016, at 1:49 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,


It is not as simple as saying it is "OK as long as you  don't connect the ground [of the charger] to the bonding system

You can not, and should not, remove all connections between the bonding system and the AC safety ground.  Those connections are there by Amel design—not by accident and are shown on Amel’s electrical drawings.  See Olivier’s comments on this matter.  Because of the connections between them, the bonding circuit and AC safety ground circuits really are all part of the same system, in normal operation carrying almost no current, but equalizing voltages.

Because there are always going to be connections between the AC safety ground and the bonding system, ANY connection between the DC negative and the AC safety ground is the same as connecting the DC negative to the bonding system. This should NOT be done--anywhere--on an Amel.  

The apparent problem with some battery chargers is that they make such a connection between DC negative and AC safety ground internally.  These are the kinds we need to avoid.  On a proper marine battery chargers this connection would not be part of the design.  It would be bad practice on any boat to have multiple connections between DC negative and AC safety ground scattered around the boat and always bad to have the charger case be part of the DC negative circuit. I am pretty sure that such a piece of equipment would not be considered ABYC compliant.

An important point to remember is that the AC Safety ground—in normal operation—should not carry any current at all.  It is only there to drain off hazardous voltages caused by short circuits to equipment cases.  Almost always, when this happens the current draw is enough to trip the circuit breaker, shutting down the faulty circuit.

Recommending that the case of a battery charger (or inverter, or any piece of equipment connected to AC line voltage) should not be grounded should not be done lightly.  Most of the time, that ground is an important safety issue.  If there was an internal short the case of the charger could become “hot” at full line voltage.  If the case is not grounded that condition can continue until the next thing to touch it (You?) carries 220 volts to ground. 

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Highlands, NJ
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Aug 10, 2016, at 08:50, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 I'm looking for a new charger now, too.  My Charles 60 A charger doesn't have an equalization cycle.  So far I've only been looking at chargers recommended by Amel owners on this forum, and for a 75-80A 24V charger with equalization mode only the Victron Skylla-i meets my needs.  I'm also looking at MasterVolt but a few owners have had bad experiences.

I think any good marine charger is OK as long as you  don't connect the ground to the bonding system.

I think ideally we want a charger with separate AC and DC grounds.  That way you could connect the AC ground to the boat's AC ground, and the DC ground to the battery negative.  Unfortunately they all seem to have a common ground that ABYC standard wants you to connect to the boat's "earth".

Are you just dropping a lead into the water and measuring between that lead and the bonding system?

It sounds like there is a fault in you charger.  But if it isn't connected to your bonding system, there is another connection to your bonding system that is carrying current to the water.  It could be on either the AC or DC circuit.
I'd be interested in what you find if you disconnect the AC and DC wires from the charger and measure resistance between each wire and the bonding system with the circuit breaker off, and again with CB on.  That should help you determine where to look for the connection.

On my boat I was never able to completely eliminate all connections to ground.  Your 220V air conditioner water pump, for example, is connected to the bonding system.  My generator case is also connected to the bonding system. (Read Olivier's earlier comments on this.)
I purchased a silver/silver chloride reference electrode to monitor hull potential and do that once a month, and every time I drop anchor or tie up to a marina dock.
Let us know what you find.
Kent
SM243
Kristy



On Aug 10, 2016, at 4:49 AM, rossienio@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Kent,

 the Sterling ProCharge N is only charger, it was  installed  time ago, without ground connection, but I have seen the problem only now, touching the mooring wet of salt water, while the boat is connected  to  the shore power of the Marina and with the C.B. on.
I can see the voltage leak with the tester on AC (2V) and DC (2.5V) connecting metallic parts of the boat with sea water.
Now the generator (Fischer Panda) is totally isolated, with all wires ( in and out ) disconnected so I' using now only solar panels.
I am going to do all the measures suggested by Olivier, but I think that the Sterling is not suitable for our boats.
Could  you give me some indication about Battery Charger  suitable to boats with the electrical system isolated, like Amel?
I also istalled an alternator-to-battery charger Sterling, do you think that it too could not be ok  for the Amels?
Here I'm not able to find an Amel-savvy electrician. 
Good wind




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Upgrading all electronics

Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Kent,

It is not as simple as saying it is "OK as long as you  don't connect the ground [of the charger] to the bonding system

You can not, and should not, remove all connections between the bonding system and the AC safety ground.  Those connections are there by Amel design—not by accident and are shown on Amel’s electrical drawings.  See Olivier’s comments on this matter.  Because of the connections between them, the bonding circuit and AC safety ground circuits really are all part of the same system, in normal operation carrying almost no current, but equalizing voltages.

Because there are always going to be connections between the AC safety ground and the bonding system, ANY connection between the DC negative and the AC safety ground is the same as connecting the DC negative to the bonding system. This should NOT be done--anywhere--on an Amel.  

The apparent problem with some battery chargers is that they make such a connection between DC negative and AC safety ground internally.  These are the kinds we need to avoid.  On a proper marine battery chargers this connection would not be part of the design.  It would be bad practice on any boat to have multiple connections between DC negative and AC safety ground scattered around the boat and always bad to have the charger case be part of the DC negative circuit. I am pretty sure that such a piece of equipment would not be considered ABYC compliant.

An important point to remember is that the AC Safety ground—in normal operation—should not carry any current at all.  It is only there to drain off hazardous voltages caused by short circuits to equipment cases.  Almost always, when this happens the current draw is enough to trip the circuit breaker, shutting down the faulty circuit.

Recommending that the case of a battery charger (or inverter, or any piece of equipment connected to AC line voltage) should not be grounded should not be done lightly.  Most of the time, that ground is an important safety issue.  If there was an internal short the case of the charger could become “hot” at full line voltage.  If the case is not grounded that condition can continue until the next thing to touch it (You?) carries 220 volts to ground. 

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Highlands, NJ
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Aug 10, 2016, at 08:50, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 I'm looking for a new charger now, too.  My Charles 60 A charger doesn't have an equalization cycle.  So far I've only been looking at chargers recommended by Amel owners on this forum, and for a 75-80A 24V charger with equalization mode only the Victron Skylla-i meets my needs.  I'm also looking at MasterVolt but a few owners have had bad experiences.

I think any good marine charger is OK as long as you  don't connect the ground to the bonding system.

I think ideally we want a charger with separate AC and DC grounds.  That way you could connect the AC ground to the boat's AC ground, and the DC ground to the battery negative.  Unfortunately they all seem to have a common ground that ABYC standard wants you to connect to the boat's "earth".

Are you just dropping a lead into the water and measuring between that lead and the bonding system?

It sounds like there is a fault in you charger.  But if it isn't connected to your bonding system, there is another connection to your bonding system that is carrying current to the water.  It could be on either the AC or DC circuit.
I'd be interested in what you find if you disconnect the AC and DC wires from the charger and measure resistance between each wire and the bonding system with the circuit breaker off, and again with CB on.  That should help you determine where to look for the connection.

On my boat I was never able to completely eliminate all connections to ground.  Your 220V air conditioner water pump, for example, is connected to the bonding system.  My generator case is also connected to the bonding system. (Read Olivier's earlier comments on this.)
I purchased a silver/silver chloride reference electrode to monitor hull potential and do that once a month, and every time I drop anchor or tie up to a marina dock.
Let us know what you find.
Kent
SM243
Kristy



On Aug 10, 2016, at 4:49 AM, rossienio@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Kent,

 the Sterling ProCharge N is only charger, it was  installed  time ago, without ground connection, but I have seen the problem only now, touching the mooring wet of salt water, while the boat is connected  to  the shore power of the Marina and with the C.B. on.
I can see the voltage leak with the tester on AC (2V) and DC (2.5V) connecting metallic parts of the boat with sea water.
Now the generator (Fischer Panda) is totally isolated, with all wires ( in and out ) disconnected so I' using now only solar panels.
I am going to do all the measures suggested by Olivier, but I think that the Sterling is not suitable for our boats.
Could  you give me some indication about Battery Charger  suitable to boats with the electrical system isolated, like Amel?
I also istalled an alternator-to-battery charger Sterling, do you think that it too could not be ok  for the Amels?
Here I'm not able to find an Amel-savvy electrician. 
Good wind




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Changing oil VP TMD22

Germain Jean-Pierre <jgermain@...>
 

Hi Paul,

Depending on how long you stay in Gib, we may meet there.. if not it will be in Madeira.. or Canaries..

We expect to start crossing week of 5 Dec..

Cheers,

Jean-Pierre


On 7 Aug 2016, at 17:34, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello JP!

We will arrive to Marina bay Gibraltar 14 or 15 of August
Paul S/Y Kerpa SM#259

Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (5)

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Rub rail enhancement

Mike Ondra
 

We are considering adding a UHMW Polyethylene strip to the groove in the rub rail. ¼” thick will leave it proud of the fiberglass rub rail about 1/8”, hopefully enough to take the majority of abuse and protect the fiberglass. The 7/8” wide material comes in 10 ft. long pieces and we would bevel the ends to obtain some overlap for aesthetic purposes. The material does not adhere well to any adhesive so we are considering a bed of 3M 4200 adhesive and countersunk screws 12” on center. We would go with the black polyethylene under the advice that white or natural would yellow under UV. Also if anyone has a cross sectional drawing of the rub rail that information would be helpful in determining the optimum screw size.

 

Any hints or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Mike and Tom

Aletes SM#240

Rock Hall, MD


Samos marina at Pitahgorion

Attilio Siviero <attilio.siviero@...>
 

Any news about the possibility to stay in Pithagorion Marina in Samos?
Noosite.com not updated.
Attilio SN #84 "Sisila" now in Gocek

Inviato da iPad


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Upgrading all electronics

karkauai
 

 I'm looking for a new charger now, too.  My Charles 60 A charger doesn't have an equalization cycle.  So far I've only been looking at chargers recommended by Amel owners on this forum, and for a 75-80A 24V charger with equalization mode only the Victron Skylla-i meets my needs.  I'm also looking at MasterVolt but a few owners have had bad experiences.

I think any good marine charger is OK as long as you  don't connect the ground to the bonding system.

I think ideally we want a charger with separate AC and DC grounds.  That way you could connect the AC ground to the boat's AC ground, and the DC ground to the battery negative.  Unfortunately they all seem to have a common ground that ABYC standard wants you to connect to the boat's "earth".

Are you just dropping a lead into the water and measuring between that lead and the bonding system?

It sounds like there is a fault in you charger.  But if it isn't connected to your bonding system, there is another connection to your bonding system that is carrying current to the water.  It could be on either the AC or DC circuit.
I'd be interested in what you find if you disconnect the AC and DC wires from the charger and measure resistance between each wire and the bonding system with the circuit breaker off, and again with CB on.  That should help you determine where to look for the connection.

On my boat I was never able to completely eliminate all connections to ground.  Your 220V air conditioner water pump, for example, is connected to the bonding system.  My generator case is also connected to the bonding system. (Read Olivier's earlier comments on this.)
I purchased a silver/silver chloride reference electrode to monitor hull potential and do that once a month, and every time I drop anchor or tie up to a marina dock.
Let us know what you find.
Kent
SM243
Kristy



On Aug 10, 2016, at 4:49 AM, rossienio@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Kent,

 the Sterling ProCharge N is only charger, it was  installed  time ago, without ground connection, but I have seen the problem only now, touching the mooring wet of salt water, while the boat is connected  to  the shore power of the Marina and with the C.B. on.
I can see the voltage leak with the tester on AC (2V) and DC (2.5V) connecting metallic parts of the boat with sea water.
Now the generator (Fischer Panda) is totally isolated, with all wires ( in and out ) disconnected so I' using now only solar panels.
I am going to do all the measures suggested by Olivier, but I think that the Sterling is not suitable for our boats.
Could  you give me some indication about Battery Charger  suitable to boats with the electrical system isolated, like Amel?
I also istalled an alternator-to-battery charger Sterling, do you think that it too could not be ok  for the Amels?
Here I'm not able to find an Amel-savvy electrician. 
Good wind


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Upgrading all electronics

enio rossi
 

Hi Kent,
 the Sterling ProCharge N is only charger, it was  installed  time ago, without ground connection, but I have seen the problem only now, touching the mooring wet of salt water, while the boat is connected  to  the shore power of the Marina and with the C.B. on.
I can see the voltage leak with the tester on AC (2V) and DC (2.5V) connecting metallic parts of the boat with sea water.
Now the generator (Fischer Panda) is totally isolated, with all wires ( in and out ) disconnected so I' using now only solar panels.
I am going to do all the measures suggested by Olivier, but I think that the Sterling is not suitable for our boats.
Could  you give me some indication about Battery Charger  suitable to boats with the electrical system isolated, like Amel?
I also istalled an alternator-to-battery charger Sterling, do you think that it too could not be ok  for the Amels?
Here I'm not able to find an Amel-savvy electrician. 
Good wind


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] '81 Mango dinette cushion replacement

mr_hermanns
 

Hey there, if your in SoCal I HIGHLY recommend Rosario Boat Covers - they did my Amel Maramu upholstery and are amazing. 

They fixed so many issues my previous canvas/upholstery guy messed up.

Here is the latest work they did in my Salon:
New Salon Interior & Closet Curtains

 


Previous work on our canvas too:
New Clear Makrolon – Goodbye Blurry Eisenglass

 



Please tell them Jeremy from Cerulean sent you - he is very personable and is known as the BEST canvas guy in SoCal (His dad taught him and owned a shop in Marina Del Rey for over 30yrs).

Rosario: 310-702-9639

Note: He knows how picky us Amel owners are, and is more than willing to listen to detailed ideas and customization.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] '81 Mango dinette cushion replacement

Dave_Benjamin
 

The mother of a friend of mine has an upholstery shop in Michigan. We shipped her complete cushions to replicate. The workmanship was excellent. My wife, who is very discerning when it comes to any sewing projects, did not find a single issue with any of the work. Her labor rates are a fraction of what's charged in California. Shipping wasn't cheap but the entire project came in at a very favorable price and we were extremely pleased with all aspects of the project. 

Drop me an email if you're interested and I'll see if I can dig up her contact information. 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] One wire to many?

amelforme
 

Further proof that Murphy was an optimist 

Joel F. Potter
THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY
954-812-2485

On Aug 9, 2016, at 5:23 PM, 'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

On the same thought line…

 

http://www.creampuff.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Murphys-Thought-Process.jpg

 

 

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising:  Tampa Bay for hurricane season

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2016 3:54 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] One wire to many?

 

 

True

An other fellow told me that not only the sum of you vise (spelling) are constant, but also the sum of the problem on the boat, His strategy is: if he have a problem he can live with he do not fix it properly as it will only be an other problem in stead.!!!???? have not tried that strategy yet...

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259