Date   

Motors for furling, Mango

bent_jyllinge
 

I am looking to exchange my furling motors and gears for the main sail on our 1987 Mango.


Unfortunately, I dont find any numbering on the motors at all. I do have a spare motor for the genua furler, this is a BOSCH 1000W 12 V. It looks like it could be the same for the others, but I have doubts.


I think that 1000W may be a little overkill for the main?


Anyone have experience with this? I really dont want to pay Amel for new motors/gears.


Regs Bent, Mango # 63


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Isolated ground of my Yankar 4jh3hte #376 Kimberlite

karkauai
 

Very nice description and pics, Eric.  I'm sure you learned a lot about how it all works in the process of figuring out what was wrong, and now have a harness that should be very reliable.

Since I repowered with a 4JH4HTE, and had a non-Amel electrician do the isolation, mine is very different in where things are located and how they run, but the connections sound like they are the same.  There are also several wires in the harness that don't connect to anything.  I'm leaving them in place in case I have a failure in a working wire that I might be able to replace with one of the unused wires without having to run a new wire in the harness.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Aug 17, 2016, at 2:25 AM, 'sailormon' kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Yanmar wiring,

If you look on at the outboard side of the engine you will see 3 harnesses and a single wire with a butt connector.

The only connections that are necessary to run the engine are the small triangular connector with a white, blue, and red wire in it. It is outboard of the engine the other connection also outboard is the single wire with a butt connector.

 

The wiring is rather straight forward in theory. If you look at the B panel wiring diagram you will see the ignition switch with 3 wires on it. The red wire branches off and run numerous things, idiot lights, and instruments. It is connected directly to the Positive terminal on the Starter motor and the battery bank. However just concentrate on the 3 wire harness. When the ignition key is turned on, it energizes the panel through the red wire, when the key is turned further; it energizes the starter motor via the white wire and starts the engine.

 

The blue wire does nothing as it is an option for an air heater. The blue wire runs all the way to the inboard side of the engine and is taped off even though it does nothing. If you are in there just cut it off at the harness connector on the outboard side of the engine and pull it out and throw it away.

The other wire a single one is connected to the stop button and that is the one that has the butt connector in it at the engine harness.

 

If you look at my photos carefully, you will see many soldered splices some of which were connected to nothing,

If the engine were grounded, it would be quite simple.

 

However, it is not.

In addition, Yanmar used plain copper wire instead of tinned copper wire. The harnesses are long and over time, corrosion will eventually cause these wires to lose their full current carrying potential and either short out or just burn up. The USA marine wire is tinned.  Just an added thought.

 

On to the nitty gritty---This where simplicity is thrown out the window.

Let’s start at the heavy black ground wire that runs from the yanmar alternator under the engine to the inboard side of the engine and then on to one of the heavy posts of the valeo solenoid. It is cut, soldered, and taped in numerous places on both sides of the engine. Being that it is hooked to an isolated ground on the alternator all the sensors are connected to it to get the negative battery power to the instruments. Note it is not connected to the block.

The ground from the battery bank is connected to a large post on one side of the Valeo solenoid and ends there, along with the large black wire that runs to the alternator, previously discussed, it is also connected to the negative activating coil contact of the valeo solenoid .

 

The valeo solenoid is the long tubular one aft of the black Yanmar starter solenoid on the upper inboard side of the engine

The other large post on the valeo solenoid is connected to the block thus, when the valeo solenoid contacts are closed it grounds the block ( connecting the block to the negative side of the battery bank) . The positive post of the activating coil of the valeo solenoid has 2 wires, each with a diode in it. These diodes prevent electric from coming in on one wire and out on the other (which happens to be the stop solenoid). Without the diodes, the engine would try to start and stop at the same time.

 

Continuing with the starter positive circuit and the white wire from triangular harness connector, Amel spliced, soldered, and taped a heavier red wire near the connector as the harness will not take the load over the distance to the solenoids. I changed this to a 12 gauge wire.

The white (now red) wire then runs under the turbo to one side of the black Yanmar starter solenoid coil (next to the Valeo). Then on to the coil of the Valeo coil solenoid through a diode.

 

When the key is turned on to, start the engine it energizes one side of the Yanmar solenoid and then the Valeo solenoid through a diode. The Valeo contacts close and then the battery negative is connected to the block, The Yanmar solenoid contacts close, energizes the solenoid on the starter motor solenoid, and starts the engine.

 

To stop the engine the stop button is pressed and this energizes the stop solenoid mounted in the fuel injector pump. This is powered at the ignition switch. It also closes the Valeo solenoid; again, through diodes to ground the engine. This is the extra wire with the butt connector

As a side note- if the key is turned off at the panel, so is the power to the stop solenoid, you then cannot stop the engine.

 

That is the theory and if it were to be drawn on paper, it would look rather logical. Unfortunately with multiple connections soldered and taped on important wires all over the place it was a 3 day job to find and remove all these poor connections and add wire to sensors etc. and make for common connection points. If you look at the before photos you will see numerous soldered connections, some doing nothing except extending a wire.  I believe a home run on every wire should have been done with this harness, as it is now.

 

For example, the wire that closes the valeo solenoid coil to start the engine runs from the valeo solenoid, under the engine and is connected to a wire that goes to the Yanmar solenoid. The wire was 2 feet long. I just cut 20 inches off the wire and connected it to the yanmar solenoid 4 inches away through a diode. Of course, many wires that were spliced in multiple places were replaced.

 

 

In all fairness to Amel, when the engine is out of the boat and you are wiring this isolated ground on a bench it probably looked pretty simple.  However, when the wires are run under, though, and around the engine a lot of wiring no longer makes sense.

 

Removing the degraded electrical tape and gross spiral Plastic covering is 25 % of the battle. Pulling the wires, out of the covering without breaking anything, is another 20% of the job. Running a new sheath to insulate the engine past the area of the turbo another 15%. The rest is just wiring, heat gunning, crimping, hair pulling, new wires, and connectors.

 

I hope this makes some sense, I believe I will now rest take a room adjoining the fellow who originally wired this engine in his padded cell in his mental hospital.

Fair Winds,
Eric
Sm 376 Kimberlite

 


Re: Explanation of Bonding v Grounding Systems

SV Perigee
 

Hi group,

Like others, I read through almost anything on this topic - ground & bonding systems, and 'floating earth' - and I think I 'get it', and then when I try to think of it in practical terms, I end up more confused than ever.

Part of the problem I think is ambiguous terms, or certain terms used in an ambiguous context. 

I have found the article at www[dot]westmarine[dot]com/WestAdvisor/Marine-Grounding-Systems to be very helpful to explain and separate the concepts of bonding systems versus grounding systems, and how they can work together.

Also I read Olivier's useful information at the conversation seen at: groups[dot]yahoo[dot]com/neo/groups/amelyachtowners/conversations/messages/27294, (search conversations for: "correct installation of a new charger "), and other contributions elsewhere.

I found this article useful also, to simply explain galvanic corrosion due to dissimilar metals, versus electrolytic corrosion due to stray current.  www[dot]clubmarine.com.au/internet/clubmarine.nsf/docs/MG19-5+Technical

Even so, I still don't fully grok the design principle of the "Floating Ground", but with further study, and clear explanation provided by others in this group, I hope some day to achieve that equi-potential nirvana.  Thank you all for your patient and kind inputs.

David

 

 


Isolated ground of my Yankar 4jh3hte #376 Kimberlite

eric freedman
 

Yanmar wiring,

If you look on at the outboard side of the engine you will see 3 harnesses and a single wire with a butt connector.

The only connections that are necessary to run the engine are the small triangular connector with a white, blue, and red wire in it. It is outboard of the engine the other connection also outboard is the single wire with a butt connector.

 

The wiring is rather straight forward in theory. If you look at the B panel wiring diagram you will see the ignition switch with 3 wires on it. The red wire branches off and run numerous things, idiot lights, and instruments. It is connected directly to the Positive terminal on the Starter motor and the battery bank. However just concentrate on the 3 wire harness. When the ignition key is turned on, it energizes the panel through the red wire, when the key is turned further; it energizes the starter motor via the white wire and starts the engine.

 

The blue wire does nothing as it is an option for an air heater. The blue wire runs all the way to the inboard side of the engine and is taped off even though it does nothing. If you are in there just cut it off at the harness connector on the outboard side of the engine and pull it out and throw it away.

The other wire a single one is connected to the stop button and that is the one that has the butt connector in it at the engine harness.

 

If you look at my photos carefully, you will see many soldered splices some of which were connected to nothing,

If the engine were grounded, it would be quite simple.

 

However, it is not.

In addition, Yanmar used plain copper wire instead of tinned copper wire. The harnesses are long and over time, corrosion will eventually cause these wires to lose their full current carrying potential and either short out or just burn up. The USA marine wire is tinned.  Just an added thought.

 

On to the nitty gritty---This where simplicity is thrown out the window.

Let’s start at the heavy black ground wire that runs from the yanmar alternator under the engine to the inboard side of the engine and then on to one of the heavy posts of the valeo solenoid. It is cut, soldered, and taped in numerous places on both sides of the engine. Being that it is hooked to an isolated ground on the alternator all the sensors are connected to it to get the negative battery power to the instruments. Note it is not connected to the block.

The ground from the battery bank is connected to a large post on one side of the Valeo solenoid and ends there, along with the large black wire that runs to the alternator, previously discussed, it is also connected to the negative activating coil contact of the valeo solenoid .

 

The valeo solenoid is the long tubular one aft of the black Yanmar starter solenoid on the upper inboard side of the engine

The other large post on the valeo solenoid is connected to the block thus, when the valeo solenoid contacts are closed it grounds the block ( connecting the block to the negative side of the battery bank) . The positive post of the activating coil of the valeo solenoid has 2 wires, each with a diode in it. These diodes prevent electric from coming in on one wire and out on the other (which happens to be the stop solenoid). Without the diodes, the engine would try to start and stop at the same time.

 

Continuing with the starter positive circuit and the white wire from triangular harness connector, Amel spliced, soldered, and taped a heavier red wire near the connector as the harness will not take the load over the distance to the solenoids. I changed this to a 12 gauge wire.

The white (now red) wire then runs under the turbo to one side of the black Yanmar starter solenoid coil (next to the Valeo). Then on to the coil of the Valeo coil solenoid through a diode.

 

When the key is turned on to, start the engine it energizes one side of the Yanmar solenoid and then the Valeo solenoid through a diode. The Valeo contacts close and then the battery negative is connected to the block, The Yanmar solenoid contacts close, energizes the solenoid on the starter motor solenoid, and starts the engine.

 

To stop the engine the stop button is pressed and this energizes the stop solenoid mounted in the fuel injector pump. This is powered at the ignition switch. It also closes the Valeo solenoid; again, through diodes to ground the engine. This is the extra wire with the butt connector

As a side note- if the key is turned off at the panel, so is the power to the stop solenoid, you then cannot stop the engine.

 

That is the theory and if it were to be drawn on paper, it would look rather logical. Unfortunately with multiple connections soldered and taped on important wires all over the place it was a 3 day job to find and remove all these poor connections and add wire to sensors etc. and make for common connection points. If you look at the before photos you will see numerous soldered connections, some doing nothing except extending a wire.  I believe a home run on every wire should have been done with this harness, as it is now.

 

For example, the wire that closes the valeo solenoid coil to start the engine runs from the valeo solenoid, under the engine and is connected to a wire that goes to the Yanmar solenoid. The wire was 2 feet long. I just cut 20 inches off the wire and connected it to the yanmar solenoid 4 inches away through a diode. Of course, many wires that were spliced in multiple places were replaced.

 

 

In all fairness to Amel, when the engine is out of the boat and you are wiring this isolated ground on a bench it probably looked pretty simple.  However, when the wires are run under, though, and around the engine a lot of wiring no longer makes sense.

 

Removing the degraded electrical tape and gross spiral Plastic covering is 25 % of the battle. Pulling the wires, out of the covering without breaking anything, is another 20% of the job. Running a new sheath to insulate the engine past the area of the turbo another 15%. The rest is just wiring, heat gunning, crimping, hair pulling, new wires, and connectors.

 

I hope this makes some sense, I believe I will now rest take a room adjoining the fellow who originally wired this engine in his padded cell in his mental hospital.

Fair Winds,
Eric
Sm 376 Kimberlite

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Explanation of Bonding System

Mark Erdos
 

Bill,

 

Very elegantly put and easy to understand. Thanks for taking the time for this long but thorough explanation.

 

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising:  Tampa Bay for hurricane season

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 8:52 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Explanation of Bonding System

 

 

Kent,

 

You have the Amel system right, but the “other boat’s” do not use the bonding system as a ground return—at least not on purpose! That would be well and truly ugly in salt water. I think all the metal bits on any boat wired like that would dissolve in a week!

 

One of the problems is that in English, we use the word “ground” to mean many different things in electrical systems, so it is easy to mis-communicate.

 

All boats should use an “insulated negative return”.  All power should flow from positive to negative terminals of the battery confined to a wire dedicated to that circuit. (Not strictly true, but if you think of it that way, you are on the right track…)  This is different than most cars, for example, where the metal frame is used as the negative return. 

 

A bonding circuit is to maintain all the underwater metals at the same potential to avoid “hot spots” and to allow them to “share” the protection of a single zinc.

 

An AC Safety Ground (the “green wire”) is also connected to the bonding circuit in several ways, making them almost the same “system” even though they are there to do different things. Since no significant current flows through either of these circuits in normal operation, multiple interconnections are not a problem.

 

Here is where “other boats” are different from Amels:  In a standard marine electrical system there is ONE (and ONLY ONE) connection between the DC negative and the bonding/AC safety ground. Without this connection the DC negative return in an Amel “floats” at a different potential relative to the bonding/AC safety ground system, hence the term “floating ground”.

 

If there are multiple connections, intentional or otherwise, between the DC negative return and the bonding system then ground loop currents are virtually assured, and the resulting electrolytic corrosion can be devastating. This is because different parts of the DC negative return will be at slightly different voltages because of varying voltage drops in the system.  Note that this is true in both a standard system and an Amel “floating ground” system.  Multiple connections between DC return and bonding circuit are ALWAYS bad on any boat.

 

Why do almost all other boats make this connection between the DC negative and the bonding circuit?  Two reasons.  First, in the event of a short between an AC hot wire and any DC wire the entire DC system would be charged to AC voltages, and potentially become very dangerous. If the DC negative is connected to the AC safety ground, the AC voltage has someplace to go, and it trips a breaker.  The second reason, is in a lightening strike, keeping all the wiring systems at the same potential as much as possible is supposed to reduce damage. I understand and accept the first, and while the second reason makes sense, I have no idea how important it really is.

 

Why does Amel NOT make this connection?  To reduce the change of corrosion while plugged in at a marina.  It does not eliminate all forms of electrolytic and galvanic corrosion, just one source.  As you well know, there can be others!  Although some people can come to blows arguing about which system is better/safer/smarter, both systems can be successful.  

 

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Narragansett Bay, RI

“Ships and men rot in port."

 

 

 

 

On Aug 16, 2016, at 19:44, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

The biggest difference between the Amel bonding system and a typically wired ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) boat, is that the DC system does not use the bonding system as the DC negative.  There should be no connections between the DC system and the bonding system on your Amel.  If there is a DC connection, and a fault occurs in the DC wiring or equipment that is not enough to trip the breaker, stray current can go out through the underwater metallic parts of the boat and cause severe electrolytic corrosion to those metals.

 

I have not been able to identify a connection between the DC negative and the bonding system on Kristy, despite 100+ hrs of looking and two days of a marine electrician specializing in this.  I have decided to keep looking when/if I see any evidence of a current leak.  I am watching my zincs closely and monitor hull potential regularly with a silver/silver chloride reference electrode and multimeter.

 

OK, all you engineers and electrical and Amel gurus...fire away!  I'm still eager to learn what I still don't understand.

 

Kent

SM243

Kristy

 




On Aug 16, 2016, at 11:45 AM, sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Ian,

 

When you're back in Brunswick let me know, we're on dock 14 in BLM.

 

First, I'm not an expert in bonding systems.  But here is what I understand.

 

If you connect different metals together with a conductor, one will corrode (the anode and less noble metal), and the other will not (cathode and more noble metal).  

 

Seawater will conduct electricity.  

 

When seawater is in contact with different metals (say a stainless steel pump impeller and a bronze seacock) one of these is less noble and will corrode (the anode).  Zinc is more anodic than the other metals on your boat.  By connecting all the metals that are in contact with seawater, and then connecting that wire to the zinc anode on the rudder, the zinc will corrode and protect the other metals in contact with seawater.

 

This is a form of "cathodic protection", check wikipedia for a more detailed explanation of cathodic protection.  This is an electro-chemical reaction.

 

Duane

Wanderer, SM #477

 

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Explanation of Bonding System

karkauai
 

Hi and thanks Bill.  On first and second reading I think I understand.  After several more readings, after I thoroughly confuse the issues, I will probably have more questions and more misconceptions.

Thanks again for what I think is the best explanation I've read of what and why our boats are different.  I think of myself as able to learn anything if I study it diligently.  It's amazing to me that when I think I've got this figured out, I find that what I've really got is often another misconception.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Aug 16, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,


You have the Amel system right, but the “other boat’s” do not use the bonding system as a ground return—at least not on purpose! That would be well and truly ugly in salt water. I think all the metal bits on any boat wired like that would dissolve in a week!

One of the problems is that in English, we use the word “ground” to mean many different things in electrical systems, so it is easy to mis-communicate.

All boats should use an “insulated negative return”.  All power should flow from positive to negative terminals of the battery confined to a wire dedicated to that circuit. (Not strictly true, but if you think of it that way, you are on the right track…)  This is different than most cars, for example, where the metal frame is used as the negative return. 

A bonding circuit is to maintain all the underwater metals at the same potential to avoid “hot spots” and to allow them to “share” the protection of a single zinc.

An AC Safety Ground (the “green wire”) is also connected to the bonding circuit in several ways, making them almost the same “system” even though they are there to do different things. Since no significant current flows through either of these circuits in normal operation, multiple interconnections are not a problem.

Here is where “other boats” are different from Amels:  In a standard marine electrical system there is ONE (and ONLY ONE) connection between the DC negative and the bonding/AC safety ground. Without this connection the DC negative return in an Amel “floats” at a different potential relative to the bonding/AC safety ground system, hence the term “floating ground”.

If there are multiple connections, intentional or otherwise, between the DC negative return and the bonding system then ground loop currents are virtually assured, and the resulting electrolytic corrosion can be devastating. This is because different parts of the DC negative return will be at slightly different voltages because of varying voltage drops in the system.  Note that this is true in both a standard system and an Amel “floating ground” system.  Multiple connections between DC return and bonding circuit are ALWAYS bad on any boat.

Why do almost all other boats make this connection between the DC negative and the bonding circuit?  Two reasons.  First, in the event of a short between an AC hot wire and any DC wire the entire DC system would be charged to AC voltages, and potentially become very dangerous. If the DC negative is connected to the AC safety ground, the AC voltage has someplace to go, and it trips a breaker.  The second reason, is in a lightening strike, keeping all the wiring systems at the same potential as much as possible is supposed to reduce damage. I understand and accept the first, and while the second reason makes sense, I have no idea how important it really is.

Why does Amel NOT make this connection?  To reduce the change of corrosion while plugged in at a marina.  It does not eliminate all forms of electrolytic and galvanic corrosion, just one source.  As you well know, there can be others!  Although some people can come to blows arguing about which system is better/safer/smarter, both systems can be successful.  

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Narragansett Bay, RI
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Aug 16, 2016, at 19:44, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


The biggest difference between the Amel bonding system and a typically wired ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) boat, is that the DC system does not use the bonding system as the DC negative.  There should be no connections between the DC system and the bonding system on your Amel.  If there is a DC connection, and a fault occurs in the DC wiring or equipment that is not enough to trip the breaker, stray current can go out through the underwater metallic parts of the boat and cause severe electrolytic corrosion to those metals.

I have not been able to identify a connection between the DC negative and the bonding system on Kristy, despite 100+ hrs of looking and two days of a marine electrician specializing in this.  I have decided to keep looking when/if I see any evidence of a current leak.  I am watching my zincs closely and monitor hull potential regularly with a silver/silver chloride reference electrode and multimeter.

OK, all you engineers and electrical and Amel gurus...fire away!  I'm still eager to learn what I still don't understand.

Kent
SM243
Kristy




On Aug 16, 2016, at 11:45 AM, sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Ian,


When you're back in Brunswick let me know, we're on dock 14 in BLM.

First, I'm not an expert in bonding systems.  But here is what I understand.

If you connect different metals together with a conductor, one will corrode (the anode and less noble metal), and the other will not (cathode and more noble metal).  

Seawater will conduct electricity.  

When seawater is in contact with different metals (say a stainless steel pump impeller and a bronze seacock) one of these is less noble and will corrode (the anode).  Zinc is more anodic than the other metals on your boat.  By connecting all the metals that are in contact with seawater, and then connecting that wire to the zinc anode on the rudder, the zinc will corrode and protect the other metals in contact with seawater.

This is a form of "cathodic protection", check wikipedia for a more detailed explanation of cathodic protection.  This is an electro-chemical reaction.

Duane
Wanderer, SM #477




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Explanation of Bonding System

Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Kent,

You have the Amel system right, but the “other boat’s” do not use the bonding system as a ground return—at least not on purpose! That would be well and truly ugly in salt water. I think all the metal bits on any boat wired like that would dissolve in a week!

One of the problems is that in English, we use the word “ground” to mean many different things in electrical systems, so it is easy to mis-communicate.

All boats should use an “insulated negative return”.  All power should flow from positive to negative terminals of the battery confined to a wire dedicated to that circuit. (Not strictly true, but if you think of it that way, you are on the right track…)  This is different than most cars, for example, where the metal frame is used as the negative return. 

A bonding circuit is to maintain all the underwater metals at the same potential to avoid “hot spots” and to allow them to “share” the protection of a single zinc.

An AC Safety Ground (the “green wire”) is also connected to the bonding circuit in several ways, making them almost the same “system” even though they are there to do different things. Since no significant current flows through either of these circuits in normal operation, multiple interconnections are not a problem.

Here is where “other boats” are different from Amels:  In a standard marine electrical system there is ONE (and ONLY ONE) connection between the DC negative and the bonding/AC safety ground. Without this connection the DC negative return in an Amel “floats” at a different potential relative to the bonding/AC safety ground system, hence the term “floating ground”.

If there are multiple connections, intentional or otherwise, between the DC negative return and the bonding system then ground loop currents are virtually assured, and the resulting electrolytic corrosion can be devastating. This is because different parts of the DC negative return will be at slightly different voltages because of varying voltage drops in the system.  Note that this is true in both a standard system and an Amel “floating ground” system.  Multiple connections between DC return and bonding circuit are ALWAYS bad on any boat.

Why do almost all other boats make this connection between the DC negative and the bonding circuit?  Two reasons.  First, in the event of a short between an AC hot wire and any DC wire the entire DC system would be charged to AC voltages, and potentially become very dangerous. If the DC negative is connected to the AC safety ground, the AC voltage has someplace to go, and it trips a breaker.  The second reason, is in a lightening strike, keeping all the wiring systems at the same potential as much as possible is supposed to reduce damage. I understand and accept the first, and while the second reason makes sense, I have no idea how important it really is.

Why does Amel NOT make this connection?  To reduce the change of corrosion while plugged in at a marina.  It does not eliminate all forms of electrolytic and galvanic corrosion, just one source.  As you well know, there can be others!  Although some people can come to blows arguing about which system is better/safer/smarter, both systems can be successful.  

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Narragansett Bay, RI
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Aug 16, 2016, at 19:44, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


The biggest difference between the Amel bonding system and a typically wired ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) boat, is that the DC system does not use the bonding system as the DC negative.  There should be no connections between the DC system and the bonding system on your Amel.  If there is a DC connection, and a fault occurs in the DC wiring or equipment that is not enough to trip the breaker, stray current can go out through the underwater metallic parts of the boat and cause severe electrolytic corrosion to those metals.

I have not been able to identify a connection between the DC negative and the bonding system on Kristy, despite 100+ hrs of looking and two days of a marine electrician specializing in this.  I have decided to keep looking when/if I see any evidence of a current leak.  I am watching my zincs closely and monitor hull potential regularly with a silver/silver chloride reference electrode and multimeter.

OK, all you engineers and electrical and Amel gurus...fire away!  I'm still eager to learn what I still don't understand.

Kent
SM243
Kristy




On Aug 16, 2016, at 11:45 AM, sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Ian,


When you're back in Brunswick let me know, we're on dock 14 in BLM.

First, I'm not an expert in bonding systems.  But here is what I understand.

If you connect different metals together with a conductor, one will corrode (the anode and less noble metal), and the other will not (cathode and more noble metal).  

Seawater will conduct electricity.  

When seawater is in contact with different metals (say a stainless steel pump impeller and a bronze seacock) one of these is less noble and will corrode (the anode).  Zinc is more anodic than the other metals on your boat.  By connecting all the metals that are in contact with seawater, and then connecting that wire to the zinc anode on the rudder, the zinc will corrode and protect the other metals in contact with seawater.

This is a form of "cathodic protection", check wikipedia for a more detailed explanation of cathodic protection.  This is an electro-chemical reaction.

Duane
Wanderer, SM #477




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Lofrans Winch Mounting

Alan Leslie
 

It is, we had that problem and i replaced the inner cone and the key and keep everything greased...
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437 Noumea


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Explanation of Bonding System

karkauai
 

The biggest difference between the Amel bonding system and a typically wired ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) boat, is that the DC system does not use the bonding system as the DC negative.  There should be no connections between the DC system and the bonding system on your Amel.  If there is a DC connection, and a fault occurs in the DC wiring or equipment that is not enough to trip the breaker, stray current can go out through the underwater metallic parts of the boat and cause severe electrolytic corrosion to those metals.

I have not been able to identify a connection between the DC negative and the bonding system on Kristy, despite 100+ hrs of looking and two days of a marine electrician specializing in this.  I have decided to keep looking when/if I see any evidence of a current leak.  I am watching my zincs closely and monitor hull potential regularly with a silver/silver chloride reference electrode and multimeter.

OK, all you engineers and electrical and Amel gurus...fire away!  I'm still eager to learn what I still don't understand.

Kent
SM243
Kristy




On Aug 16, 2016, at 11:45 AM, sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Ian,


When you're back in Brunswick let me know, we're on dock 14 in BLM.

First, I'm not an expert in bonding systems.  But here is what I understand.

If you connect different metals together with a conductor, one will corrode (the anode and less noble metal), and the other will not (cathode and more noble metal).  

Seawater will conduct electricity.  

When seawater is in contact with different metals (say a stainless steel pump impeller and a bronze seacock) one of these is less noble and will corrode (the anode).  Zinc is more anodic than the other metals on your boat.  By connecting all the metals that are in contact with seawater, and then connecting that wire to the zinc anode on the rudder, the zinc will corrode and protect the other metals in contact with seawater.

This is a form of "cathodic protection", check wikipedia for a more detailed explanation of cathodic protection.  This is an electro-chemical reaction.

Duane
Wanderer, SM #477


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Jabsco Quite Flush Toilet Maintenance and Head Smell

Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Jim,

I am very familar with Vacuflush heads, and have had nothing but good experiences with them.  But you should be aware that they have a specifically designed air-gap backflow preventer in the fresh water supply line as part of their system.

Piping freshwater directly to your toilet without such an air-gap device is not a good idea. 

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Narragansett Bay, RI
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Aug 16, 2016, at 18:03, Jim Anderson capt.anderson@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I'll try taking out just the two screws and the niple for the next joker valve change. 

I flush with fresh water from the shower most of the time. On the long term to-do wish list is installing a y-valve/selector valve in the engine room for each head's supply to be able to select fresh or sea water supply. Since all vacu-flush heads on other boats are always plumbed with fresh water flush only I don't think there is more than a 1 in 100,000 chance of contaminating the fresh water supply. But if I ever get around to this I will certainly use check/joker valves, and gravity to reduce any posibility of back-flow.
Jim




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] illustration of the Galvanic Isolator Installation

karkauai
 

Hi Alex,
Your #289 is fairly close to my #243.

I'm not on the boat, so writing this from memory.  If I've left something out or am still clueless about something, please chime in.

 If Nikimat is like Kristy, the 110AC shore power will go directly to a box on the forward bulkhead, up against the cockpit floor.  It terminates at a 110AC 30A breaker there.  From the breaker, it goes to your 110->220 AC transformer.  On Kristy the transformer is a cubical box on the forward end of the shelf above the generator.
The converted 220AC power output (which will be the same frequency as the input, 60Hz) then goes back to the box on the bulkhead to a female plug marked "220 via the transformer" (sorry, it's inFrench and I can't remember it exactly).  To use 110 shore power, you have to insert the male plug in this receptacle. (For 220 shore power it has to be plugged into the other receptacle on the front of that box marked 2"20AC Sur Le Quai".
From either receptacle, it then goes to the automatic switch which chooses generator power over shore power.  This is above the generator. I don't remember how it is marked.  There is another box near there marked 220AC that has the relays for the Air Conditioners that turn on the 220AC raw water pump which cools all three A/C units.
From that automatic switch, all 220AC power goes to the 220 breakers in the galley.

If you have a 220 inverter, power goes from it to the 220 panel receptacles and microwave breakers.  I think others have a little different set up with the inverter.

In a post a year or so ago, Olivier suggested that you could cover both 220AC and 110AC shore power by putting the galvanic isolator in the ground wire that goes from the box on the forward bulkhead in the engine room to the automatic switch above the generator.  My understanding is that the 110->220 transformer is an "isolation transformer", and having it between the shore power and the galvanic isolator is not a problem.  The only other item that is between shore power and the galvanic isolator with this placement is the 110 breaker in the box on the forward engine room bulkhead.

Hop that helps
Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Aug 16, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Good afternoon Derick,

Thanks for the compliment and also to pay attention to the details!!!

You are totally correct, currently only the 220 volt is connected.
Electricity is my weakest subject, so building confidence!

I was just thinking last night the same thing you mentioned!
The 110 Volt earth should fit inside the electric “domino”.

My 110 volt doesn’t have any shore plug… I need to open the box and look at what color cable I have and see where they go.

Do you have both shore power?
If so what good options could be good to have?

I assume the 30 A 125 Volt?
http://www.frugal-mariner.com/images/img0565.png

Does any of you have other plug for European, South American, etc. Marinas?

Once I take the pictures, i will make a post just for it.

Thanks again, sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 8/16/16, derickgates@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] illustration of the Galvanic Isolator Installation
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2016, 1:23 PM


 









Alexandre,
Nicely illustrated, as always.
 Thank you for the instructive pictures!
I note that the way you have hooked
up the galvanic isolator, only the 230V shore line is
isolated.  The 110V shore line is not (yet) protected.
 You can protect the 110V shore line using the same
isolator by hooking it up similarly simultaneously.
 Disconnect the 110V ground from the common post in the
box, and connect it to the input side of the galvanic
isolator using the same connection point as the 230V shore
ground and you have done it!  (I.e. Change your 2-wire
connector to a three-wire connector.)
That way you are protected no matter
which shore line you use!
Derick
GatesSM2K#400Currently on the hard in
Antigua for hurricane season









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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Jabsco Quite Flush Toilet Maintenance and Head Smell

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Hello Jim,

Personally I only use the shower head to flush the toilet as you are doing now.

I am not sure it is worth installing Y valve, selector, etc. but I am sure you can spend that time and money on many other things !!!
Plus keep your AMEL as original.

Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico



--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8/16/16, Jim Anderson capt.anderson@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Jabsco Quite Flush Toilet Maintenance and Head Smell
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2016, 5:03 PM


 









I'll try taking out just the
two screws and the niple for the next joker valve change.

I flush with fresh water from the shower most
of the time. On the long term to-do wish list is installing
a y-valve/selector valve in the engine room for each
head's supply to be able to select fresh or sea water
supply. Since all vacu-flush heads on other boats are always
plumbed with fresh water flush only I don't think there
is more than a 1 in 100,000 chance of contaminating the
fresh water supply. But if I ever get around to this I will
certainly use check/joker valves, and gravity to reduce any
posibility of back-flow.

Jim










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Re: Jabsco Quite Flush Toilet Maintenance and Head Smell

Jim Anderson
 

I'll try taking out just the two screws and the niple for the next joker valve change.

I flush with fresh water from the shower most of the time. On the long term to-do wish list is installing a y-valve/selector valve in the engine room for each head's supply to be able to select fresh or sea water supply. Since all vacu-flush heads on other boats are always plumbed with fresh water flush only I don't think there is more than a 1 in 100,000 chance of contaminating the fresh water supply. But if I ever get around to this I will certainly use check/joker valves, and gravity to reduce any posibility of back-flow.
Jim


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] illustration of the Galvanic Isolator Installation

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good afternoon Derick,

Thanks for your reply!
Ok, glad to know the plug fitted on your is the 30 A 125 Volt, I am likely to do the same.

I did the same, I attached an extension from the European 3-Prong plug to the 125/250 Volt 50 Amp shore power plug.
So far this is only what I have been using, but in Dominican Republic I was closed to have to use a 110 Volt shore power and was not ready for it.

Thanks for reminding me, but I am very aware the frequency will remain the same (plus my newly installed Blue Sea AC multimeter will confirm the frequency).
I am also aware that I will loose half the Amp and that when I connect to a 30 Amp 110 Volt shore power, I will get 15 Amp at 220 Volt, another great use of the Blue Sea AC multimeter !!!

I was aware about the 32 amp limit, BUT I don’t understand the: “be sure not to leave your "extra" cable tightly coiled because it will generate a lot of heat at 16 to 30 amps, enough to melt the insulation”. Could you please tell me more? On or off forum? I don’t want to make mistake…

Also, very curious about your “other” short linker cables… which one are they.

I will post tomorrow some pictures of the plugs I have, some I have no clue…

Thanks again for your reply Derick !!!

Sincerely, Alexandre




--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8/16/16, derickgates@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] illustration of the Galvanic Isolator Installation
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2016, 3:03 PM


 









Alexandre,
My
boat was the U.S. Demonstration boat, originally owned by
Joel Potter.  Like yours, it was fitted out with the 110V
to 230V transformer.  The plug on the end of the 110V shore
cable is like the one you have illustrated.  Originally I
used this cable in Saint Thomas, being a U.S. territory.
 Then I set up a short linker cable that could be attached
to the European 3-prong plug on the 230V cable supplied by
Amel, and convert it to a standard U.S. 220V plug.  That
230V cable is now my standard to connect to shore power,
with the adaptor linker (in the U.S. And the BVI and Antigua
and Saint Lucia) or without the adaptor linker in Guadeloupe
and Martinique.
Previous owners have gotten me well
supplied with additional short linker cables to allow
connection to other types of plugs.  
If you have not used your
transformer yet, be aware that although it will create
230Volts from 110Volts, it DOES NOT CHANGE THE FREQUENCY.
 That is to say, if the 110 Volt shore power is 60 Hz,
which would be standard, you cannot run the dishwasher,
clothes washer, or Dessalator because they require
50Hz.
Also note that
while you can add an adaptor plug that will feed you 50 or
more amps, the Amel wiring was set up to take a maximum of
32 amps.  I know you have recently installed a meter to
measure the amps and watts being consumed via shore power,
so you should have no trouble monitoring this.  Even so, be
sure not to leave your "extra" cable tightly
coiled because it will generate a lot of heat at 16 to 30
amps, enough to melt the insulation - ask me how I know
this...
Derick
GatesSM2K#400Currently on the hard in
Antigua for hurricane season









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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Lofrans Winch Mounting

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Duane. Yes there is an embedded mild steel plate which lovingly will not let go of the stainless steel bolt. Highly likely that if you try to remove it the last one will wring off. Don't remove it unless you really need to. Draw the oil out with a pump and a small diameter tube.
Regards
Danny
Sm 299
Ocean pearl

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On Aug 17, 2016 5:05 AM, "sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Alexandre,


There was a discussion on oil pumps in the past few months, and one commentor noted a small diameter hose was good for the Lofrans.

I would definitely not unbolt that beast if it wasn't necessary.  Lots of wiring and it may be that there is an embedded plate with the bolt corroded fast.

Does anyone know if the mounting bolts can be just turned out (i.e. is there an embedded plate below the winch for the mounting bolts)??

Duane
Wanderer, SM#477


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] illustration of the Galvanic Isolator Installation

Derick Gates
 

Alexandre,

My boat was the U.S. Demonstration boat, originally owned by Joel Potter.  Like yours, it was fitted out with the 110V to 230V transformer.  The plug on the end of the 110V shore cable is like the one you have illustrated.  Originally I used this cable in Saint Thomas, being a U.S. territory.  Then I set up a short linker cable that could be attached to the European 3-prong plug on the 230V cable supplied by Amel, and convert it to a standard U.S. 220V plug.  That 230V cable is now my standard to connect to shore power, with the adaptor linker (in the U.S. And the BVI and Antigua and Saint Lucia) or without the adaptor linker in Guadeloupe and Martinique.

Previous owners have gotten me well supplied with additional short linker cables to allow connection to other types of plugs.  

If you have not used your transformer yet, be aware that although it will create 230Volts from 110Volts, it DOES NOT CHANGE THE FREQUENCY.  That is to say, if the 110 Volt shore power is 60 Hz, which would be standard, you cannot run the dishwasher, clothes washer, or Dessalator because they require 50Hz.

Also note that while you can add an adaptor plug that will feed you 50 or more amps, the Amel wiring was set up to take a maximum of 32 amps.  I know you have recently installed a meter to measure the amps and watts being consumed via shore power, so you should have no trouble monitoring this.  Even so, be sure not to leave your "extra" cable tightly coiled because it will generate a lot of heat at 16 to 30 amps, enough to melt the insulation - ask me how I know this...

Derick Gates
SM2K#400
Currently on the hard in Antigua for hurricane season


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] illustration of the Galvanic Isolator Installation

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good afternoon Derick,

Thanks for the compliment and also to pay attention to the details!!!

You are totally correct, currently only the 220 volt is connected.
Electricity is my weakest subject, so building confidence!

I was just thinking last night the same thing you mentioned!
The 110 Volt earth should fit inside the electric “domino”.

My 110 volt doesn’t have any shore plug… I need to open the box and look at what color cable I have and see where they go.

Do you have both shore power?
If so what good options could be good to have?

I assume the 30 A 125 Volt?
http://www.frugal-mariner.com/images/img0565.png

Does any of you have other plug for European, South American, etc. Marinas?

Once I take the pictures, i will make a post just for it.

Thanks again, sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico






--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8/16/16, derickgates@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] illustration of the Galvanic Isolator Installation
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2016, 1:23 PM


 









Alexandre,
Nicely illustrated, as always.
 Thank you for the instructive pictures!
I note that the way you have hooked
up the galvanic isolator, only the 230V shore line is
isolated.  The 110V shore line is not (yet) protected.
 You can protect the 110V shore line using the same
isolator by hooking it up similarly simultaneously.
 Disconnect the 110V ground from the common post in the
box, and connect it to the input side of the galvanic
isolator using the same connection point as the 230V shore
ground and you have done it!  (I.e. Change your 2-wire
connector to a three-wire connector.)
That way you are protected no matter
which shore line you use!
Derick
GatesSM2K#400Currently on the hard in
Antigua for hurricane season









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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] illustration of the Galvanic Isolator Installation

Derick Gates
 

Alexandre,

Nicely illustrated, as always.  Thank you for the instructive pictures!

I note that the way you have hooked up the galvanic isolator, only the 230V shore line is isolated.  The 110V shore line is not (yet) protected.  You can protect the 110V shore line using the same isolator by hooking it up similarly simultaneously.  Disconnect the 110V ground from the common post in the box, and connect it to the input side of the galvanic isolator using the same connection point as the 230V shore ground and you have done it!  (I.e. Change your 2-wire connector to a three-wire connector.)

That way you are protected no matter which shore line you use!

Derick Gates
SM2K#400
Currently on the hard in Antigua for hurricane season


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Lofrans Winch Mounting

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

ok wil do !!!

Alexandre


--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8/16/16, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Lofrans Winch Mounting
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2016, 1:15 PM


 









You should still remove the bolts and
clean the salt from under the windlass.Kent

Sent from my
iPhone
On Aug 16, 2016, at 2:01
PM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:
















 






Just saw your message. I read you had to unbolt
it, etc. I actually have the instruction.

But even thought the owner manual says to change the oil,
since Bill, etc. say it is not necessary to change the oil,
then I will keep it as it is...



Alexandre



--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8/16/16, sailor63109@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:



Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Lofrans Winch Mounting

To: amelyachtowners@...

Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2016, 12:05 PM





 



















Alexandre,

There was a discussion on oil pumps

in the past few months, and one commentor noted a small

diameter hose was good for the Lofrans.

I would definitely not unbolt that

beast if it wasn't necessary.  Lots of wiring and
it

may be that there is an embedded plate with the bolt

corroded fast.

Does

anyone know if the mounting bolts can be just turned out

(i.e. is there an embedded plate below the winch for the

mounting bolts)??

DuaneWanderer,

SM#477



















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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Lofrans Winch Mounting

karkauai
 

You should still remove the bolts and clean the salt from under the windlass.
Kent


On Aug 16, 2016, at 2:01 PM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Just saw your message. I read you had to unbolt it, etc. I actually have the instruction.
But even thought the owner manual says to change the oil, since Bill, etc. say it is not necessary to change the oil, then I will keep it as it is...

Alexandre

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 8/16/16, sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Lofrans Winch Mounting
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2016, 12:05 PM


 









Alexandre,
There was a discussion on oil pumps
in the past few months, and one commentor noted a small
diameter hose was good for the Lofrans.
I would definitely not unbolt that
beast if it wasn't necessary.  Lots of wiring and it
may be that there is an embedded plate with the bolt
corroded fast.
Does
anyone know if the mounting bolts can be just turned out
(i.e. is there an embedded plate below the winch for the
mounting bolts)??
DuaneWanderer,
SM#477









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