Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Santorin with D2-55 Engine - Range

karkauai
 

Of course,Joel.  That reminds me of two other rules I've learned:

The 50-90 rule:  if there are two ways of doing something and you're not sure which is right, you have a 50% chance of getting it right the first time...and a 90% chance of getting it wrong.  It is amazingly accurate for me.

The boat list rule:  if you have 10 things to do, and you do 7 of them, there are only 8 on the list.

Kent
Kristy
SM243


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Santorin with D2-55 Engine - Range

amelforme
 

Kent, the only reason you have not used the fuel in your Jerry Jugs is because you had it ready. If it wasn't aboard, Murphy's Third Corollary would dictate that you would absolutely require additional fuel to complete the voyage... 

Joel F. Potter
THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY
954-812-2485

On Nov 18, 2016, at 10:35 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Ric.  Yes, and thank you for that.  I carried the jerry cans on deck the first few passages South and back North between the Chesapeake and the Caribbean, but never needed a drop of fuel from them.  Finally gave them to a boat going transAtlantic.  If I ever do an ocean crossing, I might add another tank, just not sure where.  Kristy lists a little to port already, and is a little stern heavy, so the port deck locker and aft lazarette don't seem ideal.  It may be most sensible to carry cans on deck on the starbord side, since I wouldn't need or want extra fuel once I crossed.

I also average a little under 3L/hr when motoring.  I usually motor at ~2000rpm and motor sail at rpm enough to average 4+kts.


Kent
Kristy
SM 243 with 110HPYanmar 4JH4HTE


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

James,

For what it’s worth, I really like your idea about the looped halyard. Simple and elegant.  Wish I had thought of it :)  Maybe you can market it to all those “other boats” who have twin track foils! :-)

I don’t think we have seen ANYTHING in the basic design of our boat that we would change.  Almost all of the minor tweaks in execution we have made, or contemplate, are things that Amel had already changed by the time they got to building the 54.

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
On the Hard, Fort Lauderdale, FL
“Ships and men rot in port."






On Nov 17, 2016, at 23:40, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Bill,


   I appreciate your suggestions on the other possible downwind setups and am sure that your intentions were as stated.  I have found so far that usually when I think  through the options to improve something on my Amel that I usually come to the conclusion that the original design was either on target or certainly close enough to satisfy my needs.  In this case, I can clearly see that the upgrades to the Santorin and SM which allow instant furling of the twin headsails to be very desirable.  I think that I have a fairly simple idea of how to get my boat to function like the upgraded models that is easily reversible if I don’t like it which I plan to try first.  If I don’t like the results, I would like to look into changing the foil and adding the lock/unlock mechanism to do the full upgrade.   I am not so sure that this upgrade would actually cost more than any other new system that I can think of..does anyone know how much a new set of foils run?   This example of the differences between the earlier and more recent boats and shows me the natural and healthy evolution of these boats.  It actually surprises me when I look at boats that are 25 years older than Sueno and realize how much has remained the same, which tells me that either the designer got really lucky early on or maybe he was a pretty smart guy!  ( I am thinking the latter  (grin))  Regardless of how far Henri brought these boats, of course there will be room for improvement in some areas so I welcome new ideas.  I am however becoming more reluctant over time to make changes until I am really sure and with downwind twin poles on Ocean crossings, that is new stuff for me.

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:57 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I think Amel’s solution is the best I have seen, and I tell people that every chance I get.


The original question (which I was trying to address in my comments) was what could be done to make a boat that was NOT rigged with a triple slot foil come as close to a fully developed Amel downwind rig as possible.

I hope if what I wrote was read carefully, you would see nothing was suggesting anybody change the system that eventually became standard on the Maramu and SM.  

If I confused you as to my thoughts, maybe I confused other people so thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Highlands, NJ
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 17, 2016, at 18:56, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


And, Bill, don't you think Amel perfected the twin sail, twin pole downwind sailing solution better and different than any other builder? I do, and I have about 40,000 miles with it in mild to cyclone conditions.

I think when you have nore experience with your Amel, you will feel the same. 

Fair winds.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail


On Nov 17, 2016 1:29 PM, "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,


   Yes, I know that the twin poles have been around for a long time but I never considered them seriously due to the complications of quickly dousing if needed for a return to windward.  Amel seems to have mostly solved that problem and the reefing ability is a big plus in my book.  I think that I might have a solution of how I can use my existing setup but if it doesn’t work out I will look into upgrading the boat to the Santorin/SM arrangement.

Thanks,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy
On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:51 AM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

James,


For a downwind rig without the $$$$ of a new foil, talk to Dave at Island Planet Sails.  He has suggested a pair of nylon ballooners on a rolling rope luff that would sheet through the double wisher poles.  I don’t know if he has actually built one, but it might be worth exploring.

It sounds like it would be easier to set and do everything the standard Amel rig does… except…  I doubt it would be usable partially reefed.  But might be worth investigating.

Poled out twin jibs have ben used by tradewind passagemakers long before Amel started putting them on their boats.  There are lots of ways to skin this cat. Amel's innovation was to make it easy to set the reef the sails and handle really big whisker poles.

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 17, 2016, at 07:41, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Ian, Linda and the many others that responded to my questions about new sails..


   Thanks to all for the great input.  After sleeping on all of the information, I find myself drawn back to the original design concept of a 150 Genoa,  it just makes a lot of sense.  It just seems like the go to sail  the planned downwind passages using the twin poles along with a ballooner.  The addition of foam or some other bulking material to the luff to enhance the reefing qualities makes a lot of sense.  I have seen the permanent creases due to stretching that are apparently caused by rolling a shaped sail onto a straight extrusion and then loading that sail.  I don’t see how the 150 would be a good choice reefed as a storm sail and I would like to have aboard a smaller nicely shaped easy to tack jib for windward sailing and higher winds that would be more suitable as a storm sail. So it seems that I will just need to make some room to store one of these sails while the other is in use.  I wonder if by using the Hydranet if the 150 can be made a bit lighter so as to be easier to change with the understanding that the heavier smaller 100-120 would replace it for the expected parts of the trip where the winds will be strong?  Yes, there would be times when sailing through an acceleration zone etc. where I might be caught with the 150 in too much wind so I would need to be careful to not make the sail too light. A lot of the weight of my old 150 seemed to be in the sun cover.  Are there lighter UV covers available?

   I have a question about running twin sails on my Maramu using the twin slot extrusion.  It concerns me a lot having the need to lower the ballooner to furl due to the possible need to quickly turn the boat back upwind…  The concept of being able to furl both the 150 and the Ballooner seems worthy of adding to the boat from a safety standpoint if nothing else.  I was wondering if anyone has ever used a halyard running from the furler head to the furler tack attachment to hoist the ballooner and whether this work in lieu of the snap ratchet upgrade?  I am envisioning a continuous halyard line of small diameter using a small block at each end(high strength Spectra perhaps) that would roll up with the two sails.  The ballooner is so light and easy to raise on my boat that I don’t see why this could not work but what do you think?   The only other option seems to be to hoist both sails together on the same halyard which would be a mess dropping both at the same time, probably as the wind is coming up…  

   Ian and Linda,  Yes, I have seen the Santorins and think that they are lovely boats!  From a distance it is sometimes hard for me to tell them from a SM.  It is interesting to look at the various designs and to see the evolution of these boats.  

Best,

James  Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy


On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:09 AM, Ian Park parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

James
The Santorin is a scaled down SM minus some kit because it has less room eg gen set, freezer, washing machine etc....
So the rig is identical including the triple groove foil and furler with the snap ratchet for the ballooner.

The foam luff... Because of the 'shaped' cut of the Genoa, when it furls the centre section does not wrap as tightly as the top and bottom. So the centre bulges more, leaves creases across the sail and does not drive as efficiently.
Three strips of foam padding(in gradually shorter lengths) are stitched in down the luff. As the sail furls this new 'bulge' gathers more of the centre of the sail giving a better shape that drives better in stronger winds.

As Bill says, it's an omission that should be corrected.

Ian and Linda

'Ocean Hobo' SN96














Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Santorin with D2-55 Engine - Range

karkauai
 

Hi Ric.  Yes, and thank you for that.  I carried the jerry cans on deck the first few passages South and back North between the Chesapeake and the Caribbean, but never needed a drop of fuel from them.  Finally gave them to a boat going transAtlantic.  If I ever do an ocean crossing, I might add another tank, just not sure where.  Kristy lists a little to port already, and is a little stern heavy, so the port deck locker and aft lazarette don't seem ideal.  It may be most sensible to carry cans on deck on the starbord side, since I wouldn't need or want extra fuel once I crossed.

I also average a little under 3L/hr when motoring.  I usually motor at ~2000rpm and motor sail at rpm enough to average 4+kts.


Kent
Kristy
SM 243 with 110HPYanmar 4JH4HTE


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Santorin with D2-55 Engine - Range

Ric Gottschalk <ric@...>
 

Ian is right, but I tend to motor at 2000 to 2200 rpm. I often motor sail for my 4 knot rule at lower RPM. I keep a fuel log as well. Bottom line is that 1 US gallon/hr is my safety number and voyage average is .75 gal or 2.75 liters/hour. I have installed 2- 35 gallon tanks in the aft lazzarette with a fuel transfer pump in the engine room that refills  the main tank instead of jerry cans on deck or spilling fuel. Yes it is heavy at first, but I don’t have to handle, drag around or buy jerry cans. Kent got some of them.

Ric

Bali Hai SN24

Annapolis  

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 8:02 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Santorin with D2-55 Engine - Range

 

 

 

Trevor

I haven’t done a detailed analysis of fuel consumption. We have the Perkins Prima 50 on our Santorin. I believe we get around 2.75 litres and hour, but our engine use varies greatly from running at 1500 revs for the the belt driven watermaker pump, to motor sailing at 1800 revs, or punching a head sea and wind at 2,200 revs. We try to avoid the last one!

I have worked on a range of 700 nm on a passage, and it seems to hold true. Because of the shaft alternator we find all our electrical demands are met when sailing above 5 knots. We filled up in Cape Verde before crossing the Atlantic and lasted the next 4 months before refuelling before lift out, we didn’t need to run the engine for battery recharging on the whole crossing. Because the Santorin lacks power hungry stuff like washing machines, freezer and air con the demands on the batteries are lower than the SM (hence no gen set as standard on the SN). Maybe other Santorin owners can chip in, but we use more fuel in Island hopping than on an ocean passage. We carried 100 litres of spare diesel which wasn’t required (but was reassuring).

 

Ian

 

Ocean Hobo SN96

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Santorin with D2-55 Engine - Range

Ian Park
 

 

Trevor

I haven’t done a detailed analysis of fuel consumption. We have the Perkins Prima 50 on our Santorin. I believe we get around 2.75 litres and hour, but our engine use varies greatly from running at 1500 revs for the the belt driven watermaker pump, to motor sailing at 1800 revs, or punching a head sea and wind at 2,200 revs. We try to avoid the last one!

I have worked on a range of 700 nm on a passage, and it seems to hold true. Because of the shaft alternator we find all our electrical demands are met when sailing above 5 knots. We filled up in Cape Verde before crossing the Atlantic and lasted the next 4 months before refuelling before lift out, we didn’t need to run the engine for battery recharging on the whole crossing. Because the Santorin lacks power hungry stuff like washing machines, freezer and air con the demands on the batteries are lower than the SM (hence no gen set as standard on the SN). Maybe other Santorin owners can chip in, but we use more fuel in Island hopping than on an ocean passage. We carried 100 litres of spare diesel which wasn’t required (but was reassuring).

 

Ian

 

Ocean Hobo SN96

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

James Alton
 

Ian,

   After I sent my last response to you I realized that I had made a mistake.  You did say sitting with your feet in the bow locker and I said standing…  The sitting position sounds like a good way to brace and I should be about the right height as well..I will give it a try.

   There is an eye at the tack fitting on Sueno with a lot of room to put several wraps of perhaps 1/8” line to secure the sail, so it would be quite easy to tension the luff of the sail in that manner.  That is a good idea to leave the tack loose initially and should make the tensioning easier.  I can’t imagine that the sail weights even 10 lbs. but there is some drag due to the wind load when hoisting.  I am glad to hear that you think that this might work,  I don’t loose much if it doesn’t.

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 18, 2016, at 4:38 AM, Ian Park parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

James
Sitting with feet in the bow locker gives me a better downward pull on the halliard. It also means I can ensure the leach slides up the groove without snagging any sailcloth. Plus it's comfortable and leaves Linda in the cockpit to tend the sheets and steering.
Your plan may well work. Just an addition - I don't fasten the foot of the ballooner until last. It ensures the snap fastening engages properly, and then I tension the foot which is easy to do even with the boat on course and sail full. There is a rectangular s/s loop on top of the furled to thread the down haul through a few times to get a good purchase.
I'm not on the boat yet to send a photo, but if you fastened a snap shackle to the same place you could fasten your up haul loop to it and tension the foot afterwards. 
I don't know if the Maramu has this fitting, but it shouldn't be too difficult to have it welded on maybe?

Good luck.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN96



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

James Alton
 

Alan,

   Yes, an inner forestay would be a great solution to hank on a storm jib.    Sueno did come with a staysail.  The staysail however was flown using only a halyard which exited just below the 2nd set of spreaders  (no actual stay)  so I cannot imagine this arrangement being satisfactory in any real wind.  There was also no provision for aft support of the spar at this location, running backs etc. so I would also be concerned about that aspect.  Can you tell me how your inner forestay is set up and if your spar has running backs or some other aft support?

   It sounds like you have a good system for tacking the 150 even with the inner forestay.  90 degree tacks is pretty good for a cruising boat with the sheeting to the rail!

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax, Italy

On Nov 18, 2016, at 4:32 AM, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

We have to do this on Elyse as we have an inner forestay.

Just a bit more extreme than Danny does, we have to furl in about 70% to get the genoa to pass the inner stay, but using autotack on the auto pilot its easy.
We start to furl in the genoa, hit the +1,+10 buttons and start the tack, by the time we are head to wind the genoa is in 70% and there's enough still out to pull us through the wind, and then sheet on the new winch, off the old winch and unfurl and sheet in at the same time, done....
It took a bit of practice but now its no drama...
Last time we were in New Caledonia we tacked like this 13 times to get to Ile des Pins in a SE breeze, nice crisp 90 degree tacks....
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Unusually long tailed messages: Please check.

karkauai
 

I agree.  I brought this up once a few years ago, but it seemed like members wanted the prior messages.  In Panama Internet access is so poor that even short emails take forever to download.

Also, often, long threads go astray without changing the subject heading.

Kent
Kristy
SM243


Re: Changing your E mail

Jose_Luis Isasi
 

Yes.
I cannot do it myself either. So it seems hardcoded.
Some members ask their accounts to be removed and request new ones.
Same as when they lose/forget the access to an email address.
JL
Group Moderator


Unusually long tailed messages: Please check.

Jose_Luis Isasi
 

Mates.

I am seeing messages that are very long(tailed) and with content that is not needed to follow up.

Since the threads can be followed by conversation, I suggest to adopt a practice that leads to be mindful of this and try to eliminate all not necesary content from the tail of the messages.

All mates, specially those at sea with small bandwidth will appreciate it.


Thanks for your understanding.

Group Moderator.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Santorin with D2-55 Engine - Range

Germain Jean-Pierre <jgermain@...>
 

Hello Trevor,

I get 3.7 liters/hr based on about 2000 hours of average on a TMD 22 which is an older, less efficient engine.  I would expect about 3.2 l/hr at 6 knots.

GL with your delivery

Jean-Pierre Germain,
Eleuthera, SM 007, Lanzarote


On 18 Nov 2016, at 07:47, tfortner1975@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello Group,

I am trying to get an estimated fuel consumption / range for a Santorin running a D2-55.  I have done the research from Penta and other sites and of-course everyone has their opinions. 

Just purchased this in Oct and have not had a chance to run her yet.  Delivery Skipper and I are planning a 3200NM trip for early next year.

Anyone with input on this particular set up?

Thank You,

Trevor
SV Iris SN27
Currently moored in Langkawi (hopefully headed to Abu Dhabi soon!)






Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

Ian Park
 

James
Sitting with feet in the bow locker gives me a better downward pull on the halliard. It also means I can ensure the leach slides up the groove without snagging any sailcloth. Plus it's comfortable and leaves Linda in the cockpit to tend the sheets and steering.
Your plan may well work. Just an addition - I don't fasten the foot of the ballooner until last. It ensures the snap fastening engages properly, and then I tension the foot which is easy to do even with the boat on course and sail full. There is a rectangular s/s loop on top of the furled to thread the down haul through a few times to get a good purchase.
I'm not on the boat yet to send a photo, but if you fastened a snap shackle to the same place you could fasten your up haul loop to it and tension the foot afterwards.
I don't know if the Maramu has this fitting, but it shouldn't be too difficult to have it welded on maybe?

Good luck.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN96


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

Alan Leslie
 

We have to do this on Elyse as we have an inner forestay.
Just a bit more extreme than Danny does, we have to furl in about 70% to get the genoa to pass the inner stay, but using autotack on the auto pilot its easy.
We start to furl in the genoa, hit the +1,+10 buttons and start the tack, by the time we are head to wind the genoa is in 70% and there's enough still out to pull us through the wind, and then sheet on the new winch, off the old winch and unfurl and sheet in at the same time, done....
It took a bit of practice but now its no drama...
Last time we were in New Caledonia we tacked like this 13 times to get to Ile des Pins in a SE breeze, nice crisp 90 degree tacks....
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Santorin with D2-55 Engine - Range

tfortner1975
 

Hello Group,

I am trying to get an estimated fuel consumption / range for a Santorin running a D2-55.  I have done the research from Penta and other sites and of-course everyone has their opinions. 

Just purchased this in Oct and have not had a chance to run her yet.  Delivery Skipper and I are planning a 3200NM trip for early next year.

Anyone with input on this particular set up?

Thank You,

Trevor
SV Iris SN27
Currently moored in Langkawi (hopefully headed to Abu Dhabi soon!)



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

James Alton
 

Danny,

   I can imagine that it would be fun to watch you sailing your boat and I am sure that I would learn a lot!  

    The Maramu of course lacks the electric winches and the genset to keep all of those motors spinning for too long so a lot of that sheet hauling when tacking is done by either myself or the wife… This  think would translate into a lot more engine time and less sailing under those circumstances..  On our previous boat,(9.5 tons)  the sailplan was such that an overlap in the jib and main was not required and in winds up to 20 knots the winch handle was not even needed..just a well timed yank on the sheet, cleat and we were done.  So that is where we are coming from and our idea of simple.  I am confident at this point that having a smaller headsail aboard will be a great thing for the passages made in stronger average winds and I am pretty sure that we will enjoy that sail when out daysailing.  I was very happy to discover that the Maramu tacks quite nicely,  especially with the penny partially furled. I am hoping also that this smaller headsail will serve pretty well properly reefed serve as our storm jib.     What I am not sure about just yet is whether we will change sails as often as we should..  I have been reading up on a few ideas to make changing headsails installed on a foil easier and one idea that I came across might be worth adding to the new sail.  Loops are sewn into the luff at intervals that give you something to get ahold of and if needed put a tie in to help tame the slippery beast on the foredeck.  I am also considering doing what I can to keep the 150 a bit lighter than the old one by using a lighter UV cover and possibly a lighter cloth.  My 150 on Sueno seems heavy compared to what I am used to, but of course it is certainly a good bit lighter I am sure than on the SM.  At any rate, I can haul the sail out of the cockpit locker, haul it to the foredeck and install it by myself in calm conditions..  So I am thinking that if we can store the unused sail in a forward locker and make sail changes..(and make the call early) off the wind that we might be ok but we will need to try it a few times.  My problem is of course the fact that my Amel sailing time is limited to about 5 weeks so I still have a lot to learn about this boat..but I must order sails and make decisions now.  It’s a chunk of change,  especially in the high tech cloth so having the input from more experienced Amel owners has been a big help to me.  It is sort of reassuring in a way that after all of the research that I came full circle to realize that having a 150 as designed makes a lot of sense.  I am still hoping to add a lightweight Code 0 type sail for upwind/reaching in light air but that sail can wait a while.  

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 17, 2016, at 11:31 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Thanks James,
The tacking is easier than you may think. The furler speed is such that by pressing to furl as the helm goes down it is at the perfect distance rolled as I pass head to wind.
When unrolling have the sheet loaded around the winch into the self tailer. have the winch turning continuously but unroll to allow the winch to maintain some load on the sheet. This means watching und unrolling in spurts. Otherwise the sheet drops out of the self tailer. Of course if your crew is there its more simple, just have them tail the winch.
Cheers
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl



From: "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@... 
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2016 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

 
Danny,

   Thanks for this tip.  It is really nice that with the Amel poles secured that you can elect to not have to deal with them right away.

   Your description of tacking sounds a bit like writing music…  It sounds like you know your boat pretty well.  

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 17, 2016, at 2:43 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hi.
If you have to turn quickly up wind when twin down wind sails are set, or more likely a sudden wind change to the beam occurs it is possible and safe to drop the sail on the windward side across to sit inside the other on the leeward side. It helps if you have port and starboard sheets on both sails (but not essential), so the one you drop through can be sheeted. It is practical to continue for a while like this and evaluate the next move.
Another point about the 150% headsail; going to windward and tacking. When I tack, as I put the helm down and the sheet is eased I press the furler switch, by the time I pass through head to wind the sail has furled sufficiently to clear the mast. As I fill away on the new tack and sheet in, I unfurl in harmony with the sheeting in.
Cheers
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl



From: "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@... 
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2016 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

 
Ian, Linda and the many others that responded to my questions about new sails..

   Thanks to all for the great input.  After sleeping on all of the information, I find myself drawn back to the original design concept of a 150 Genoa,  it just makes a lot of sense.  It just seems like the go to sail  the planned downwind passages using the twin poles along with a ballooner.  The addition of foam or some other bulking material to the luff to enhance the reefing qualities makes a lot of sense.  I have seen the permanent creases due to stretching that are apparently caused by rolling a shaped sail onto a straight extrusion and then loading that sail.  I don’t see how the 150 would be a good choice reefed as a storm sail and I would like to have aboard a smaller nicely shaped easy to tack jib for windward sailing and higher winds that would be more suitable as a storm sail. So it seems that I will just need to make some room to store one of these sails while the other is in use.  I wonder if by using the Hydranet if the 150 can be made a bit lighter so as to be easier to change with the understanding that the heavier smaller 100-120 would replace it for the expected parts of the trip where the winds will be strong?  Yes, there would be times when sailing through an acceleration zone etc. where I might be caught with the 150 in too much wind so I would need to be careful to not make the sail too light. A lot of the weight of my old 150 seemed to be in the sun cover.  Are there lighter UV covers available?

   I have a question about running twin sails on my Maramu using the twin slot extrusion.  It concerns me a lot having the need to lower the ballooner to furl due to the possible need to quickly turn the boat back upwind…  The concept of being able to furl both the 150 and the Ballooner seems worthy of adding to the boat from a safety standpoint if nothing else..  I was wondering if anyone has ever used a halyard running from the furler head to the furler tack attachment to hoist the ballooner and whether this work in lieu of the snap ratchet upgrade?  I am envisioning a continuous halyard line of small diameter using a small block at each end(high strength Spectra perhaps) that would roll up with the two sails.  The ballooner is so light and easy to raise on my boat that I don’t see why this could not work but what do you think?   The only other option seems to be to hoist both sails together on the same halyard which would be a mess dropping both at the same time, probably as the wind is coming up…  

   Ian and Linda,  Yes, I have seen the Santorins and think that they are lovely boats!  From a distance it is sometimes hard for me to tell them from a SM.  It is interesting to look at the various designs and to see the evolution of these boats.  

Best,

James  Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:09 AM, Ian Park parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

James
The Santorin is a scaled down SM minus some kit because it has less room eg gen set, freezer, washing machine etc....
So the rig is identical including the triple groove foil and furler with the snap ratchet for the ballooner.

The foam luff... Because of the 'shaped' cut of the Genoa, when it furls the centre section does not wrap as tightly as the top and bottom. So the centre bulges more, leaves creases across the sail and does not drive as efficiently.
Three strips of foam padding(in gradually shorter lengths) are stitched in down the luff. As the sail furls this new 'bulge' gathers more of the centre of the sail giving a better shape that drives better in stronger winds..

As Bill says, it's an omission that should be corrected.

Ian and Linda

'Ocean Hobo' SN96











Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

James Alton
 

Bill,

   I appreciate your suggestions on the other possible downwind setups and am sure that your intentions were as stated.  I have found so far that usually when I think  through the options to improve something on my Amel that I usually come to the conclusion that the original design was either on target or certainly close enough to satisfy my needs.  In this case, I can clearly see that the upgrades to the Santorin and SM which allow instant furling of the twin headsails to be very desirable.  I think that I have a fairly simple idea of how to get my boat to function like the upgraded models that is easily reversible if I don’t like it which I plan to try first.  If I don’t like the results, I would like to look into changing the foil and adding the lock/unlock mechanism to do the full upgrade.   I am not so sure that this upgrade would actually cost more than any other new system that I can think of..does anyone know how much a new set of foils run?   This example of the differences between the earlier and more recent boats and shows me the natural and healthy evolution of these boats.  It actually surprises me when I look at boats that are 25 years older than Sueno and realize how much has remained the same, which tells me that either the designer got really lucky early on or maybe he was a pretty smart guy!  ( I am thinking the latter  (grin))  Regardless of how far Henri brought these boats, of course there will be room for improvement in some areas so I welcome new ideas.  I am however becoming more reluctant over time to make changes until I am really sure and with downwind twin poles on Ocean crossings, that is new stuff for me.

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:57 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I think Amel’s solution is the best I have seen, and I tell people that every chance I get.


The original question (which I was trying to address in my comments) was what could be done to make a boat that was NOT rigged with a triple slot foil come as close to a fully developed Amel downwind rig as possible.

I hope if what I wrote was read carefully, you would see nothing was suggesting anybody change the system that eventually became standard on the Maramu and SM.  

If I confused you as to my thoughts, maybe I confused other people so thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Highlands, NJ
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 17, 2016, at 18:56, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


And, Bill, don't you think Amel perfected the twin sail, twin pole downwind sailing solution better and different than any other builder? I do, and I have about 40,000 miles with it in mild to cyclone conditions.

I think when you have nore experience with your Amel, you will feel the same. 

Fair winds.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail


On Nov 17, 2016 1:29 PM, "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,


   Yes, I know that the twin poles have been around for a long time but I never considered them seriously due to the complications of quickly dousing if needed for a return to windward.  Amel seems to have mostly solved that problem and the reefing ability is a big plus in my book.  I think that I might have a solution of how I can use my existing setup but if it doesn’t work out I will look into upgrading the boat to the Santorin/SM arrangement.

Thanks,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy
On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:51 AM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

James,


For a downwind rig without the $$$$ of a new foil, talk to Dave at Island Planet Sails.  He has suggested a pair of nylon ballooners on a rolling rope luff that would sheet through the double wisher poles.  I don’t know if he has actually built one, but it might be worth exploring.

It sounds like it would be easier to set and do everything the standard Amel rig does… except…  I doubt it would be usable partially reefed.  But might be worth investigating.

Poled out twin jibs have ben used by tradewind passagemakers long before Amel started putting them on their boats.  There are lots of ways to skin this cat. Amel's innovation was to make it easy to set the reef the sails and handle really big whisker poles.

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 17, 2016, at 07:41, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Ian, Linda and the many others that responded to my questions about new sails..


   Thanks to all for the great input.  After sleeping on all of the information, I find myself drawn back to the original design concept of a 150 Genoa,  it just makes a lot of sense.  It just seems like the go to sail  the planned downwind passages using the twin poles along with a ballooner.  The addition of foam or some other bulking material to the luff to enhance the reefing qualities makes a lot of sense.  I have seen the permanent creases due to stretching that are apparently caused by rolling a shaped sail onto a straight extrusion and then loading that sail.  I don’t see how the 150 would be a good choice reefed as a storm sail and I would like to have aboard a smaller nicely shaped easy to tack jib for windward sailing and higher winds that would be more suitable as a storm sail. So it seems that I will just need to make some room to store one of these sails while the other is in use.  I wonder if by using the Hydranet if the 150 can be made a bit lighter so as to be easier to change with the understanding that the heavier smaller 100-120 would replace it for the expected parts of the trip where the winds will be strong?  Yes, there would be times when sailing through an acceleration zone etc. where I might be caught with the 150 in too much wind so I would need to be careful to not make the sail too light. A lot of the weight of my old 150 seemed to be in the sun cover.  Are there lighter UV covers available?

   I have a question about running twin sails on my Maramu using the twin slot extrusion.  It concerns me a lot having the need to lower the ballooner to furl due to the possible need to quickly turn the boat back upwind…  The concept of being able to furl both the 150 and the Ballooner seems worthy of adding to the boat from a safety standpoint if nothing else.  I was wondering if anyone has ever used a halyard running from the furler head to the furler tack attachment to hoist the ballooner and whether this work in lieu of the snap ratchet upgrade?  I am envisioning a continuous halyard line of small diameter using a small block at each end(high strength Spectra perhaps) that would roll up with the two sails.  The ballooner is so light and easy to raise on my boat that I don’t see why this could not work but what do you think?   The only other option seems to be to hoist both sails together on the same halyard which would be a mess dropping both at the same time, probably as the wind is coming up…  

   Ian and Linda,  Yes, I have seen the Santorins and think that they are lovely boats!  From a distance it is sometimes hard for me to tell them from a SM.  It is interesting to look at the various designs and to see the evolution of these boats.  

Best,

James  Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy


On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:09 AM, Ian Park parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

James
The Santorin is a scaled down SM minus some kit because it has less room eg gen set, freezer, washing machine etc....
So the rig is identical including the triple groove foil and furler with the snap ratchet for the ballooner.

The foam luff... Because of the 'shaped' cut of the Genoa, when it furls the centre section does not wrap as tightly as the top and bottom. So the centre bulges more, leaves creases across the sail and does not drive as efficiently.
Three strips of foam padding(in gradually shorter lengths) are stitched in down the luff. As the sail furls this new 'bulge' gathers more of the centre of the sail giving a better shape that drives better in stronger winds.

As Bill says, it's an omission that should be corrected.

Ian and Linda

'Ocean Hobo' SN96












Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Thanks James,
The tacking is easier than you may think. The furler speed is such that by pressing to furl as the helm goes down it is at the perfect distance rolled as I pass head to wind.
When unrolling have the sheet loaded around the winch into the self tailer. have the winch turning continuously but unroll to allow the winch to maintain some load on the sheet. This means watching und unrolling in spurts. Otherwise the sheet drops out of the self tailer. Of course if your crew is there its more simple, just have them tail the winch.
Cheers
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl



From: "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]"
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2016 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

 
Danny,

   Thanks for this tip.  It is really nice that with the Amel poles secured that you can elect to not have to deal with them right away.

   Your description of tacking sounds a bit like writing music…  It sounds like you know your boat pretty well.  

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 17, 2016, at 2:43 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hi.
If you have to turn quickly up wind when twin down wind sails are set, or more likely a sudden wind change to the beam occurs it is possible and safe to drop the sail on the windward side across to sit inside the other on the leeward side. It helps if you have port and starboard sheets on both sails (but not essential), so the one you drop through can be sheeted. It is practical to continue for a while like this and evaluate the next move.
Another point about the 150% headsail; going to windward and tacking. When I tack, as I put the helm down and the sheet is eased I press the furler switch, by the time I pass through head to wind the sail has furled sufficiently to clear the mast. As I fill away on the new tack and sheet in, I unfurl in harmony with the sheeting in.
Cheers
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl



From: "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@... 
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2016 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

 
Ian, Linda and the many others that responded to my questions about new sails..

   Thanks to all for the great input.  After sleeping on all of the information, I find myself drawn back to the original design concept of a 150 Genoa,  it just makes a lot of sense.  It just seems like the go to sail  the planned downwind passages using the twin poles along with a ballooner.  The addition of foam or some other bulking material to the luff to enhance the reefing qualities makes a lot of sense.  I have seen the permanent creases due to stretching that are apparently caused by rolling a shaped sail onto a straight extrusion and then loading that sail.  I don’t see how the 150 would be a good choice reefed as a storm sail and I would like to have aboard a smaller nicely shaped easy to tack jib for windward sailing and higher winds that would be more suitable as a storm sail. So it seems that I will just need to make some room to store one of these sails while the other is in use.  I wonder if by using the Hydranet if the 150 can be made a bit lighter so as to be easier to change with the understanding that the heavier smaller 100-120 would replace it for the expected parts of the trip where the winds will be strong?  Yes, there would be times when sailing through an acceleration zone etc. where I might be caught with the 150 in too much wind so I would need to be careful to not make the sail too light. A lot of the weight of my old 150 seemed to be in the sun cover.  Are there lighter UV covers available?

   I have a question about running twin sails on my Maramu using the twin slot extrusion.  It concerns me a lot having the need to lower the ballooner to furl due to the possible need to quickly turn the boat back upwind…  The concept of being able to furl both the 150 and the Ballooner seems worthy of adding to the boat from a safety standpoint if nothing else..  I was wondering if anyone has ever used a halyard running from the furler head to the furler tack attachment to hoist the ballooner and whether this work in lieu of the snap ratchet upgrade?  I am envisioning a continuous halyard line of small diameter using a small block at each end(high strength Spectra perhaps) that would roll up with the two sails.  The ballooner is so light and easy to raise on my boat that I don’t see why this could not work but what do you think?   The only other option seems to be to hoist both sails together on the same halyard which would be a mess dropping both at the same time, probably as the wind is coming up…  

   Ian and Linda,  Yes, I have seen the Santorins and think that they are lovely boats!  From a distance it is sometimes hard for me to tell them from a SM.  It is interesting to look at the various designs and to see the evolution of these boats.  

Best,

James  Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:09 AM, Ian Park parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

James
The Santorin is a scaled down SM minus some kit because it has less room eg gen set, freezer, washing machine etc....
So the rig is identical including the triple groove foil and furler with the snap ratchet for the ballooner.

The foam luff... Because of the 'shaped' cut of the Genoa, when it furls the centre section does not wrap as tightly as the top and bottom. So the centre bulges more, leaves creases across the sail and does not drive as efficiently.
Three strips of foam padding(in gradually shorter lengths) are stitched in down the luff. As the sail furls this new 'bulge' gathers more of the centre of the sail giving a better shape that drives better in stronger winds..

As Bill says, it's an omission that should be corrected.

Ian and Linda

'Ocean Hobo' SN96









Changing your E mail

Gregory Shea
 

I want to change my E mail but Edit Membership shows your E mails but doesn't allow you to add a new one, despite the Help screen saying you can.
Any suggestions

Greg Shea
Sharki 133


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] New sails

Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

I think Amel’s solution is the best I have seen, and I tell people that every chance I get.

The original question (which I was trying to address in my comments) was what could be done to make a boat that was NOT rigged with a triple slot foil come as close to a fully developed Amel downwind rig as possible.

I hope if what I wrote was read carefully, you would see nothing was suggesting anybody change the system that eventually became standard on the Maramu and SM.  

If I confused you as to my thoughts, maybe I confused other people so thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Highlands, NJ
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 17, 2016, at 18:56, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


And, Bill, don't you think Amel perfected the twin sail, twin pole downwind sailing solution better and different than any other builder? I do, and I have about 40,000 miles with it in mild to cyclone conditions.

I think when you have nore experience with your Amel, you will feel the same. 

Fair winds.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail


On Nov 17, 2016 1:29 PM, "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,


   Yes, I know that the twin poles have been around for a long time but I never considered them seriously due to the complications of quickly dousing if needed for a return to windward.  Amel seems to have mostly solved that problem and the reefing ability is a big plus in my book.  I think that I might have a solution of how I can use my existing setup but if it doesn’t work out I will look into upgrading the boat to the Santorin/SM arrangement.

Thanks,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy
On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:51 AM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

James,


For a downwind rig without the $$$$ of a new foil, talk to Dave at Island Planet Sails.  He has suggested a pair of nylon ballooners on a rolling rope luff that would sheet through the double wisher poles.  I don’t know if he has actually built one, but it might be worth exploring.

It sounds like it would be easier to set and do everything the standard Amel rig does… except…  I doubt it would be usable partially reefed.  But might be worth investigating.

Poled out twin jibs have ben used by tradewind passagemakers long before Amel started putting them on their boats.  There are lots of ways to skin this cat. Amel's innovation was to make it easy to set the reef the sails and handle really big whisker poles.

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 17, 2016, at 07:41, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Ian, Linda and the many others that responded to my questions about new sails..


   Thanks to all for the great input.  After sleeping on all of the information, I find myself drawn back to the original design concept of a 150 Genoa,  it just makes a lot of sense.  It just seems like the go to sail  the planned downwind passages using the twin poles along with a ballooner.  The addition of foam or some other bulking material to the luff to enhance the reefing qualities makes a lot of sense.  I have seen the permanent creases due to stretching that are apparently caused by rolling a shaped sail onto a straight extrusion and then loading that sail.  I don’t see how the 150 would be a good choice reefed as a storm sail and I would like to have aboard a smaller nicely shaped easy to tack jib for windward sailing and higher winds that would be more suitable as a storm sail. So it seems that I will just need to make some room to store one of these sails while the other is in use.  I wonder if by using the Hydranet if the 150 can be made a bit lighter so as to be easier to change with the understanding that the heavier smaller 100-120 would replace it for the expected parts of the trip where the winds will be strong?  Yes, there would be times when sailing through an acceleration zone etc. where I might be caught with the 150 in too much wind so I would need to be careful to not make the sail too light. A lot of the weight of my old 150 seemed to be in the sun cover.  Are there lighter UV covers available?

   I have a question about running twin sails on my Maramu using the twin slot extrusion.  It concerns me a lot having the need to lower the ballooner to furl due to the possible need to quickly turn the boat back upwind…  The concept of being able to furl both the 150 and the Ballooner seems worthy of adding to the boat from a safety standpoint if nothing else.  I was wondering if anyone has ever used a halyard running from the furler head to the furler tack attachment to hoist the ballooner and whether this work in lieu of the snap ratchet upgrade?  I am envisioning a continuous halyard line of small diameter using a small block at each end(high strength Spectra perhaps) that would roll up with the two sails.  The ballooner is so light and easy to raise on my boat that I don’t see why this could not work but what do you think?   The only other option seems to be to hoist both sails together on the same halyard which would be a mess dropping both at the same time, probably as the wind is coming up…  

   Ian and Linda,  Yes, I have seen the Santorins and think that they are lovely boats!  From a distance it is sometimes hard for me to tell them from a SM.  It is interesting to look at the various designs and to see the evolution of these boats.  

Best,

James  Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy


On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:09 AM, Ian Park parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

James
The Santorin is a scaled down SM minus some kit because it has less room eg gen set, freezer, washing machine etc....
So the rig is identical including the triple groove foil and furler with the snap ratchet for the ballooner.

The foam luff... Because of the 'shaped' cut of the Genoa, when it furls the centre section does not wrap as tightly as the top and bottom. So the centre bulges more, leaves creases across the sail and does not drive as efficiently.
Three strips of foam padding(in gradually shorter lengths) are stitched in down the luff. As the sail furls this new 'bulge' gathers more of the centre of the sail giving a better shape that drives better in stronger winds.

As Bill says, it's an omission that should be corrected.

Ian and Linda

'Ocean Hobo' SN96