On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:09, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi James,

There are lots of messages in here about inner forestays...and pictures.

Ours was factory installed and is a furler on a permanent stay at the top spreader with dyneema running back stays. The furler is anchored fwd of the windlass to a 13mm SS plate under the deck that runs under the deck from the windlass to the bow fitting.

I'll try post some track pics from Maxsea that show the 90 degree tacks !

Cheers'

Alan

Elyse SM437

On Nov 18, 2016, at 5:27 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

If the block is attached to the bottom of the swivel, it turns with the foil, and the job. The top of the swivel does not turn.  That's what makes it a swivel...

On Nov 18, 2016, at 16:16, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

James,

You will be attaching a block to the swivel. It does not turn when the foil and sail is furled. Therefore, you will have that halyard wrap around the foil.

Do you get it?

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Nov 18, 2016 5:10 PM, "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Bill,

   My plan is to attach a small block at the location that the head of the second sail would be normally attached to and the second small block at the location where the tack of that sail is normally secured.  The continuous halyard will be looped through those two blocks. Unless I am missing something, both of those attachment points rotate with the foil, otherwise the sail itself would be wrapped. When the sails are rolled, the halyard will be buried under the sail.  I believe that the Ballooner that I have is a fair amount shorter than the hoist available so I should have room for the blocks and for tensioning. 

   If for some reason this solution does not work out, I want to look into the cost of upgrading the furling system with a new foil and add the locking device.  

   I am cutting the trail ing tails off of my posts but leaving the one immediately preceding to help with context.  If that is a problem, someone let me know.

James Alton

SV Sueno,  Maramu #220

Arbatax,  Italy 

On Nov 18, 2016, at 4:46 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

If I understand you correctly, to hoist the second sail, you will have a block somehow attached to the swivel with a continuous loop halyard that you will somehow tie off in the top of the furler.

That block is going to remain stationary while the foil and the sail turn while furling and unfurling. If I understand you correctly, I see wrapping of that halyard around the foil and between the block and the top of the sail and probably halyard failure. 

Maybe you could attach the block to the foil somehow, but I see big problems there.

Maybe I don't understand you.

Bil l Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

 

If I understand you correctly, to hoist the second sail, you will have a block somehow attached to the swivel with a continuous loop halyard that you will somehow tie off in the top of the furler.

That block is going to remain stationary while the foil and the sail turn while furling and unfurling. If I understand you correctly, I see wrapping of that halyard around the foil and between the block and the top of the sail and probably halyard failure.

Maybe you could attach the block to the foil somehow, but I see big problems there.

Maybe I don't understand you.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Nov 18, 2016 4:29 PM, "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Bill,

   Well I can think of only two possible options:

1.  He didn’t think of it.

2.  He did think of it and decided it was bad idea, in which case I may have some details on why after doing some testing..

   I think that it will work and so far cannot think of a good reason not to give it a try.

 If you forsee a problem with this idea,  let me know.

James Alton

SV Sueno,  Maramu #220

Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 18, 2016, at 4:11 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I have one question. I wonder why Henri Amel did NOT do it that way?

Bill ROUSE

BeBe

On Nov 18, 2016, at 4:46 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

If I understand you correctly, to hoist the second sail, you will have a block somehow attached to the swivel with a continuous loop halyard that you will somehow tie off in the top of the furler.

That block is going to remain stationary while the foil and the sail turn while furling and unfurling. If I understand you correctly, I see wrapping of that halyard around the foil and between the block and the top of the sail and probably halyard failure. 

Maybe you could attach the block to the foil somehow, but I see big problems there.

Maybe I don't understand you.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Nov 18, 2016, at 4:11 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I have one question. I wonder why Henri Amel did NOT do it that way?

Bill ROUSE

BeBe

On Nov 18, 2016, at 11:53 AM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

James,

For what it’s worth, I really like your idea about the looped halyard. Simple and elegant.  Wish I had thought of it :)  Maybe you can market it to all those “other boats” who have twin track foils! :-)

I don’t think we have seen ANYTHING in the basic design of our boat that we would change.  Almost all of the minor tweaks in execution we have made, or contemplate, are things that Amel had already changed by the time they got to building the 54.

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

On the Hard, Fort Lauderdale, FL

“Ships and men rot in port."

http://fetchinketch.net

 

Hi Ric.  Yes, and thank you for that.  I carried the jerry cans on deck the first few passages South and back North between the Chesapeake and the Caribbean, but never needed a drop of fuel from them.  Finally gave them to a boat going transAtlantic.  If I ever do an ocean crossing, I might add another tank, just not sure where.  Kristy lists a little to port already, and is a little stern heavy, so the port deck locker and aft lazarette don't seem ideal.  It may be most sensible to carry cans on deck on the starbord side, since I wouldn't need or want extra fuel once I crossed.

I also average a little under 3L/hr when motoring.  I usually motor at ~2000rpm and motor sail at rpm enough to average 4+kts.

Kent

Kristy

SM 243 with 110HPYanmar 4JH4HTE

On Nov 17, 2016, at 23:40, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Bill,

   I appreciate your suggestions on the other possible downwind setups and am sure that your intentions were as stated.  I have found so far that usually when I think  through the options to improve something on my Amel that I usually come to the conclusion that the original design was either on target or certainly close enough to satisfy my needs.  In this case, I can clearly see that the upgrades to the Santorin and SM which allow instant furling of the twin headsails to be very desirable.  I think that I have a fairly simple idea of how to get my boat to function like the upgraded models that is easily reversible if I don’t like it which I plan to try first.  If I don’t like the results, I would like to look into changing the foil and adding the lock/unlock mechanism to do the full upgrade.   I am not so sure that this upgrade would actually cost more than any other new system that I can think of..does anyone know how much a new set of foils run?   This example of the differences between the earlier and more recent boats and shows me the natural and healthy evolution of these boats.  It actually surprises me when I look at boats that are 25 years older than Sueno and realize how much has remained the same, which tells me that either the designer got really lucky early on or maybe he was a pretty smart guy!  ( I am thinking the latter  (grin))  Regardless of how far Henri brought these boats, of course there will be room for improvement in some areas so I welcome new ideas.  I am however becoming more reluctant over time to make changes until I am really sure and with downwind twin poles on Ocean crossings, that is new stuff for me.

Best,

James Alton

SV Sueno,  Maramu #220

Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:57 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I think Amel’s solution is the best I have seen, and I tell people that every chance I get.

The original question (which I was trying to address in my comments) was what could be done to make a boat that was NOT rigged with a triple slot foil come as close to a fully developed Amel downwind rig as possible.

I hope if what I wrote was read carefully, you would see nothing was suggesting anybody change the system that eventually became standard on the Maramu and SM.  

If I confused you as to my thoughts, maybe I confused other people so thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Highlands, NJ

“Ships and men rot in port."

http://fetchinketch.net

On Nov 17, 2016, at 18:56, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

And, Bill, don't you think Amel perfected the twin sail, twin pole downwind sailing solution better and different than any other builder? I do, and I have about 40,000 miles with it in mild to cyclone conditions.

I think when you have nore experience with your Amel, you will feel the same. 

Fair winds.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Nov 17, 2016 1:29 PM, "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Bill,

   Yes, I know that the twin poles have been around for a long time but I never considered them seriously due to the complications of quickly dousing if needed for a return to windward.  Amel seems to have mostly solved that problem and the reefing ability is a big plus in my book.  I think that I might have a solution of how I can use my existing setup but if it doesn’t work out I will look into upgrading the boat to the Santorin/SM arrangement.

Thanks,

James Alton

SV Sueno,  Maramu #220

Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:51 AM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

James,

For a downwind rig without the $$$$ of a new foil, talk to Dave at Island Planet Sails.  He has suggested a pair of nylon ballooners on a rolling rope luff that would sheet through the double wisher poles.  I don’t know if he has actually built one, but it might be worth exploring.

It sounds like it would be easier to set and do everything the standard Amel rig does… except…  I doubt it would be usable partially reefed.  But might be worth investigating.

Poled out twin jibs have ben used by tradewind passagemakers long before Amel started putting them on their boats.  There are lots of ways to skin this cat. Amel's innovation was to make it easy to set the reef the sails and handle really big whisker poles.

Bill Kinney

SM #160, Harmonie

Fort Lauderdale, FL

“Ships and men rot in port."

http://fetchinketch.net

On Nov 17, 2016, at 07:41, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Ian, Linda and the many others that responded to my questions about new sails..

   Thanks to all for the great input.  After sleeping on all of the information, I find myself drawn back to the original design concept of a 150 Genoa,  it just makes a lot of sense.  It just seems like the go to sail  the planned downwind passages using the twin poles along with a ballooner.  The addition of foam or some other bulking material to the luff to enhance the reefing qualities makes a lot of sense.  I have seen the permanent creases due to stretching that are apparently caused by rolling a shaped sail onto a straight extrusion and then loading that sail.  I don’t see how the 150 would be a good choice reefed as a storm sail and I would like to have aboard a smaller nicely shaped easy to tack jib for windward sailing and higher winds that would be more suitable as a storm sail. So it seems that I will just need to make some room to store one of these sails while the other is in use.  I wonder if by using the Hydranet if the 150 can be made a bit lighter so as to be easier to change with the understanding that the heavier smaller 100-120 would replace it for the expected parts of the trip where the winds will be strong?  Yes, there would be times when sailing through an acceleration zone etc. where I might be caught with the 150 in too much wind so I would need to be careful to not make the sail too light. A lot of the weight of my old 150 seemed to be in the sun cover.  Are there lighter UV covers available?

   I have a question about running twin sails on my Maramu using the twin slot extrusion.  It concerns me a lot having the need to lower the ballooner to furl due to the possible need to quickly turn the boat back upwind…  The concept of being able to furl both the 150 and the Ballooner seems worthy of adding to the boat from a safety standpoint if nothing else.  I was wondering if anyone has ever used a halyard running from the furler head to the furler tack attachment to hoist the ballooner and whether this work in lieu of the snap ratchet upgrade?  I am envisioning a continuous halyard line of small diameter using a small block at each end(high strength Spectra perhaps) that would roll up with the two sails.  The ballooner is so light and easy to raise on my boat that I don’t see why this could not work but what do you think?   The only other option seems to be to hoist both sails together on the same halyard which would be a mess dropping both at the same time, probably as the wind is coming up…  

   Ian and Linda,  Yes, I have seen the Santorins and think that they are lovely boats!  From a distance it is sometimes hard for me to tell them from a SM.  It is interesting to look at the various designs and to see the evolution of these boats.  

Best,

James  Alton

SV Sueno,  Maramu #220

Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:09 AM, Ian Park parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

James
The Santorin is a scaled down SM minus some kit because it has less room eg gen set, freezer, washing machine etc....
So the rig is identical including the triple groove foil and furler with the snap ratchet for the ballooner.

The foam luff... Because of the 'shaped' cut of the Genoa, when it furls the centre section does not wrap as tightly as the top and bottom. So the centre bulges more, leaves creases across the sail and does not drive as efficiently.
Three strips of foam padding(in gradually shorter lengths) are stitched in down the luff. As the sail furls this new 'bulge' gathers more of the centre of the sail giving a better shape that drives better in stronger winds.

As Bill says, it's an omission that should be corrected.

Ian and Linda

'Ocean Hobo' SN96

On Nov 18, 2016, at 4:38 AM, Ian Park parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

James
Sitting with feet in the bow locker gives me a better downward pull on the halliard. It also means I can ensure the leach slides up the groove without snagging any sailcloth. Plus it's comfortable and leaves Linda in the cockpit to tend the sheets and steering.
Your plan may well work. Just an addition - I don't fasten the foot of the ballooner until last. It ensures the snap fastening engages properly, and then I tension the foot which is easy to do even with the boat on course and sail full. There is a rectangular s/s loop on top of the furled to thread the down haul through a few times to get a good purchase.
I'm not on the boat yet to send a photo, but if you fastened a snap shackle to the same place you could fasten your up haul loop to it and tension the foot afterwards. 
I don't know if the Maramu has this fitting, but it shouldn't be too difficult to have it welded on maybe?

Good luck.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN96