Date   

Generator Flooded with Fresh Water

rossirossix4
 

Hi Duane,

I promised Bill and Duane I would post a summary of the problem and have changed the subject line for better results in searches.  I emailed Duane rather than posting, hoping to sort things out instead of having a flurry of back and forth posts and bounced ideas off of Bill while we were confirming the problem.

When I saw Duane's post evolving I emailed him to suggest a possible cause--a slow (bypass) leak from the desalination 3-way valve between the freshwater to the saltwater systems and offered a simple test: observe the water level in the strainer with the seacock (sea intake ball valve) closed and the fresh water system pressured up.  If it rises over time--even slowly--it is a problem.  Even with a very slow leak it will continue to push water into the sea water manifold.  It seems that the generator loop is the way out for this water.  The diesel engine raw water loop (fortunately) and the desalination filters are higher and for some reason the water does not escape through the AC loop  (I am guessing it has something to do with the way salt water is selectively diverted to the 3 AC units).  Of course, if the seacock to the strainer is open (either on-land or in the water) pressure will not build up and cause a problem.

I had had the same problem but happened to catch it quickly as I was trouble shooting for the source of the fresh water leak.   Because the bypass leak can be very, very small (and still cause major problems over time) it can be difficult to detect by noticing excessive freshwater pump cycling.  Like Duane, I had heard my fresh water pump cycle just once in the middle of the night.  Also, difficulty cranking the generator can be a sign of a full lift muffler.  It is probably only after the muffler and exhaust hose fills that water will back into the generator.

The problem is solved by installing a new 3-way valve.  I am sure that Dessalator and Amel used a good valve, but after 10 years of exposure to salt water, a bit of electrolysis, etc, and perhaps lack of being worked it can develop a very slow leak that potentially could lead to a very big problem.  I think that 3 way valves may be more susceptible to these kinds of problems than 2 way ball valves because the openings are closer. 

I did not post at the time because I thought I had just made a procedural error.  I have a 2 way ball valve between the salt water manifold and 3 way.  Had I closed that during non-use of the Dessalator there would not have been a problem.  I have just learned that it is not standard on Amels.  I would, however suggest considering the valve and it is pretty easy to add if you are replacing your 3-way.  If you have a leak in the filters or somewhere else in your desalination system you can still operate your engine and generator and it is handy when working on your system.  It also prevents a potentially expensive problem if the 3 way valve develops a bypass leak over time.  Occasionally I will forget to open it before making water but immediately see no low water pressure--I always look for this because I am also checking to make sure the low pressure feed pump is operating.  Checking the oil in your generator before every operation is not a bad idea.

Bob, KAIMI SM 429
Cavtat, Croatia



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: rigging quotes

Mark Pitt
 

Hi Craig,

Yes, it was from ACMO.  Shipping by air to Antalya, Turkey was euros 530.  Everything was nicely packed and labeled (in French) on a pallet.

Best,

Mark
Sabbatical III, ASM #419


On Apr 13, 2017, at 7:39 PM, sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the data point on price. Was that from ACMO?  Did you have it shipped and, if so, to where and for how much? What's an "ASM"?
Cheers, Craig, SN#68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

Hi,

   I paid euros 7497.98 without shipping last year.  The price was the same for right or left handed turnbuckles.  All one needs to add is nylon spacers and grease for the headstay.

   Mark Pitt

  Sabbatical III, ASM#419


On 4/13/2017 8:54 AM, sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
Hi Paul,

We bought ours in 2010. 
Some time ago Gary Silver posted his Super Maramu invoice from March, 2014 and it was virtually the same as yours at 7947 plus 780 for shipping (to where I don't know) for a total of 8286.

We did save some 1000€ by specifying standard right handed turnbuckles rather than the Amel original spec of left handed ones.  I don't know if Gary did that too, but you probably do on your quote. 

The difference may not be unreasonable, though, if you consider the Santorin has 6, 7, 8 and 10 mm stays versus the Super Maramu's 7,8,10 & 12mm with proportionally sized turnbuckles, plus it being 7 years ago. 

Good grief, 7 years puts me about half way to having to do it again!  I may have to have Katherine do the work aloft this time while I push the button on the windlass.

Cheers, Craig Briggs, SN68, Sangaris, Ft Pierce, Fl

---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

Craig and Katherine,

How long ago did you obtain your rigging from ACMO?  I just received a quote from them for a Super Maramu for 7954 € without shipping.

I realize a SM would be somewhat more expensive than a Santorin, but I had read a number of times that the number was closer to 5000 €.

Has anyone else received a quote recently from ACMO?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Saint Lucia

RitaKathryn.com
 
 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: rigging quotes

Craig Briggs
 

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the data point on price. Was that from ACMO?  Did you have it shipped and, if so, to where and for how much? What's an "ASM"?
Cheers, Craig, SN#68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., <mark_pitt@...> wrote :

Hi,

   I paid euros 7497.98 without shipping last year.  The price was the same for right or left handed turnbuckles.  All one needs to add is nylon spacers and grease for the headstay.

   Mark Pitt

  Sabbatical III, ASM#419


On 4/13/2017 8:54 AM, sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
Hi Paul,

We bought ours in 2010. 
Some time ago Gary Silver posted his Super Maramu invoice from March, 2014 and it was virtually the same as yours at 7947 plus 780 for shipping (to where I don't know) for a total of 8286.

We did save some 1000€ by specifying standard right handed turnbuckles rather than the Amel original spec of left handed ones.  I don't know if Gary did that too, but you probably do on your quote. 

The difference may not be unreasonable, though, if you consider the Santorin has 6, 7, 8 and 10 mm stays versus the Super Maramu's 7,8,10 & 12mm with proportionally sized turnbuckles, plus it being 7 years ago. 

Good grief, 7 years puts me about half way to having to do it again!  I may have to have Katherine do the work aloft this time while I push the button on the windlass.

Cheers, Craig Briggs, SN68, Sangaris, Ft Pierce, Fl

---In amelyachtowners@..., <no_reply@...> wrote :

Craig and Katherine,

How long ago did you obtain your rigging from ACMO?  I just received a quote from them for a Super Maramu for 7954 € without shipping.

I realize a SM would be somewhat more expensive than a Santorin, but I had read a number of times that the number was closer to 5000 €.

Has anyone else received a quote recently from ACMO?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Saint Lucia

RitaKathryn.com
 
 


Re: Replacing AMFA Fresh Water System by Jabsco

Paul Osterberg
 

Hello Dominique
We installed a Jabsco par 4 pump with a Johnosn 2 liter accumulator tank, we thought the Jabsco was to small and the quality did not look great. So fare it works very well. We will probably replace the anchor wash punp with a Jabsco pump par 4, and buy two as spare then they can replace the toilet punps as well as fresh water and anchor wash pump.That will give flexibility and reduce number of different pumps ro keep as spare
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259 Bahamas


Replacing AMFA Fresh Water System by Jabsco

Dominique Guenot
 

SM 2000 - AMFA pump and fresh water system

The pressure tank membrane is punctuated 

AMEL La Rochelle seems unable to provide and AMFA is no where to be seen but some leftover inventory with wholesaler. 


I am considering replacing by:

- Jabsco Pump

- Jabsco Accumulator 


See file attached 


Price in the US via Amazon is reasonable

Jabsco is available everywhere   


Could you let me know your thoughts and/or any recommended brand/system you might have successfully installed? 

 

Thank you so much 

Dominique 

s/v Viva  


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: rigging quotes

Mark Pitt
 

Hi,

   I paid euros 7497.98 without shipping last year.  The price was the same for right or left handed turnbuckles.  All one needs to add is nylon spacers and grease for the headstay.

   Mark Pitt

  Sabbatical III, ASM#419


On 4/13/2017 8:54 AM, sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
Hi Paul,

We bought ours in 2010. 
Some time ago Gary Silver posted his Super Maramu invoice from March, 2014 and it was virtually the same as yours at 7947 plus 780 for shipping (to where I don't know) for a total of 8286.

We did save some 1000€ by specifying standard right handed turnbuckles rather than the Amel original spec of left handed ones.  I don't know if Gary did that too, but you probably do on your quote. 

The difference may not be unreasonable, though, if you consider the Santorin has 6, 7, 8 and 10 mm stays versus the Super Maramu's 7,8,10 & 12mm with proportionally sized turnbuckles, plus it being 7 years ago. 

Good grief, 7 years puts me about half way to having to do it again!  I may have to have Katherine do the work aloft this time while I push the button on the windlass.

Cheers, Craig Briggs, SN68, Sangaris, Ft Pierce, Fl

---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

Craig and Katherine,

How long ago did you obtain your rigging from ACMO?  I just received a quote from them for a Super Maramu for 7954 € without shipping.

I realize a SM would be somewhat more expensive than a Santorin, but I had read a number of times that the number was closer to 5000 €.

Has anyone else received a quote recently from ACMO?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Saint Lucia

RitaKathryn.com
 
 


Re: Rigging tune on Maramu caused damage

greatketch@...
 

Putting holes in cored deck has been the death of many a boat from water intrusion. Nothing the dull thud of the plastic sounding hammer when it finds wet core to make a sailor's heart sink. 

It's not hard to do right, but it does involve so much more than just drilling holes and bedding the hardware.

I hope your repairs go according to plan!

Bill Kinney
SM160 Harmonie
Isla de Culebra, PR


Re: rigg of santorin when should it be changed?

pstas2003 <no_reply@...>
 

Craig,

Thank you for your response and the information.

I asked them about the right-hand/left-hand turnbuckle thing, and they stated that it would be the same regardless. 

Maybe there was a shortage of left-hand turnbuckles back in 2010?

Thanks again and all the best,

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Saint Lucia


Re: rigg of santorin when should it be changed?

John Clark
 

Hi Paul,
I just had rigging replaced in Le Marin by Caraibe for 10,500 Euro. They are the shop that Amel employs in Martinique and uses all original ACMO hardware.

They were working on a SM when I got my quote and I followed another SM into the work pier. As we were leaving another Amel was pulling in, so they are quite experienced with Amel rigs.
It was three days work, they handled everythIng.

Gatean was the fellow I talked to, he can speak english.

Regards. John

John Clark
Vent de Soleil SM 37
Great Bay, Sint Maarten


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: rigging quotes

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Paul,

Where you are located you have another option. For about 10,000€, including labor, you can sail over to Martinique and have the rigger that Amel recommends do a turn-key job. Gaëtan Rivet caraibe-greement.fr>. His mobile phone is 596 (0) 696 419 045. I used him to replace a short shroud on the mainmast that was suspicious looking at the top swage. Everyone else I know that used him, was satisfied with the re-rigging. Because of his location, he may have more Amel experience than most.

Best

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550



On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:12 AM, pstas2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
 

Craig,

Thank you for your response and the information.

I asked them about the right-hand/left-hand turnbuckle thing, and they stated that it would be the same regardless. 

Maybe there was a shortage of left-hand turnbuckles back in 2010?

Thanks again and all the best,

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Saint Lucia



Re: rigging quotes

pstas2003 <no_reply@...>
 

Craig,

Thank you for your response and the information.

I asked them about the right-hand/left-hand turnbuckle thing, and they stated that it would be the same regardless. 

Maybe there was a shortage of left-hand turnbuckles back in 2010?

Thanks again and all the best,

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Saint Lucia


Re: rigging quotes

Craig Briggs
 

Hi Paul,

We bought ours in 2010. 
Some time ago Gary Silver posted his Super Maramu invoice from March, 2014 and it was virtually the same as yours at 7947 plus 780 for shipping (to where I don't know) for a total of 8286.

We did save some 1000€ by specifying standard right handed turnbuckles rather than the Amel original spec of left handed ones.  I don't know if Gary did that too, but you probably do on your quote. 

The difference may not be unreasonable, though, if you consider the Santorin has 6, 7, 8 and 10 mm stays versus the Super Maramu's 7,8,10 & 12mm with proportionally sized turnbuckles, plus it being 7 years ago. 

Good grief, 7 years puts me about half way to having to do it again!  I may have to have Katherine do the work aloft this time while I push the button on the windlass.

Cheers, Craig Briggs, SN68, Sangaris, Ft Pierce, Fl

---In amelyachtowners@..., <no_reply@...> wrote :

Craig and Katherine,

How long ago did you obtain your rigging from ACMO?  I just received a quote from them for a Super Maramu for 7954 € without shipping.

I realize a SM would be somewhat more expensive than a Santorin, but I had read a number of times that the number was closer to 5000 €.

Has anyone else received a quote recently from ACMO?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Saint Lucia

RitaKathryn.com
 
 


Re: rigg of santorin when should it be changed?

pstas2003 <no_reply@...>
 

Craig and Katherine,

How long ago did you obtain your rigging from ACMO?  I just received a quote from them for a Super Maramu for 7954 € without shipping.

I realize a SM would be somewhat more expensive than a Santorin, but I had read a number of times that the number was closer to 5000 €.

Has anyone else received a quote recently from ACMO?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Saint Lucia

RitaKathryn.com


Amel 54 with a Yanmar

Eric Freedman
 

I went  to La Rochelle prior to the announcement of the 54..on my insistence, Amel would have been able  to change my engine  to  Yanmar since it was still legal for another year in the USA.

 

I actually sailed the prototype and was sworn to secrecy since they had not announced the 54 and were still delivering the 53’s. I would only have to pay the submission to the CE approval bureau and the architects plus any additional modifications for a Yanmar . I had hull #12 on order ( my lucky number) however perceived health issues made me cancel my order, DAMN”

The boat was hidden on the opposite side of the harbor , Jean-Jack, Joel , Olivier and I  took it out for a sail.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376


Re: Rigging tune on Maramu caused damage

j.lochhead@...
 

Hi Peter, I have put an update to this below.


Re: Rigging tune on Maramu caused damage

j.lochhead@...
 

Hi, 

Well we finally got to a place suitable to be able to remove the masts and carry out the repairs so I thought I should do an update.

Main Mast Compression Post - The main mast defiantly had rot, and that had also caused some rot to the bulkhead.  A previous owner had done a pretty good job of trying to replace the bulkhead from the saloon side, but without access to the area under the floor from the head side he could only do so much.
Tried removing the floor pan in the head but ended up having to cut the floor out.  Upon cutting out the floor pan we also discovered that the glassed in copper pipe had corroded.

The post was then replaced with new hardwood. 

I did consider going for a stainless post, but as good hardwood was available decided to stick with that.  We then re-glassed the post in at the bottom and top.  Floor was repaired and new gelcoat put on.  The head is not quite back together yet but will post a finished photo when it is.

Why did this happen?  Well I guess it is a 30+ year old boat so somethings like this are bound to occur, however I think the main reason is that freshwater had got in-between the wall lining and the shower floor.  The glass did not come up this high.  I will be sealing this joint and ensuring that the mast drain has a tube in it so that any water from there also runs straight into the floor drain.  I also found that the 

Mizzen Mast - Under the mizzen mast base plate we found that there was a wooden block encapsulated in the fibreglass.  This was rotten, causing the area to sink and pushing the top of the seat up in the middle.  The rope box had come away from the bulkhead the same way as yours had Peter.

When this was cut out it was also discovered that the balsa core to the seat was rotten. The rope box was cut out and saved for reuse.  The seat gap was filled as best as possible with resin and chopshred.  The base under the mizzen was then built up from the bottom layer with epoxy and high quality glass.


Why did this happen?   I am not sure, but I think that the issue occurred because additional holes where put into the box area for running solar panel cables.  These would have been sealed at the time, but I guess over the years it leaked and led to rot.  Once the rot to the block started to collapse it it meant that the water could also get in next to the conduit that takes the mizzen mast cables.

Will post photos soon.

James 





Re: Onan Generator strange issue

greatketch@...
 

Duane,

The comments from Apollo do NOT apply to the type of valve used by Dessalator in the watermaker.  There is no way the Dessalator valve can mix from the salt and fresh water supplies if it is working properly. If it could, that would be a bad thing, since there are some situations where salt water could mix with the fresh, and contaminate the boat's drinking water, or you could lose fresh water out the sea chest.

It is really hard to see how this valve could fail in this way. If the seals fail, typically the leak path is to the outside, not between ports.  But... if all the impossible things have been eliminated...

All these thoughts of course assume all the original equipment is still in place...

Bill Kinney
SM160 Harmonie
Isla de Culebra, PR



Re: Mizzen stay sail

Jose Venegas
 

Paul, 
I am glad you asked about this.  I have had the same problem when sailing Ipanema on a port broad reach.  I like the idea of using the boom to keep the sheet away from the ladder.  That should work on really broad reaches but will not let you use the mizzen if you are sailing a bit less deep. Perhaps the small pole may work.

I will be testing it soon.

Jose
Ipanema SM2000 278
No longer shrink rapped 
Constitution Marina
Boston


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Onan Generator strange issue

Duane Siegfri
 

Eric,

Turning off the freshwater pump may not be enough.

If you (for example) are on the hard, living on the boat with the seachest thru-hull closed, the leak is small and incremental.  If you turn off the water at 2PM and go into town, and then turn it back on at 7PM it was off only for 5 out of 24 hours.  The other 19 hours there is a trickle leaking past the flush valve ball and pressurizing the seachest.  While that's happening water is being pushed from the seachest to the generator.  Even though you shut off the water pump, the accumulator tank has a volume of water under pressure, and it will push into the system, basically supplying water for the leak until the pressure drops down far enough the valve no longer leaks.  So shutting it off for 5 hours, or overnight won't solve the problem.  Of course the problem only exists if the seachest thru-hull is closed with the lid on the seachest.

Here's the takeaway:  if you ever close the seacock, take off the lid to the seachest.  If you don't you're just gambling.

Apollo valves had a warning about their three way valves that follows (note paragraph 2):
============================================
When ports “A” and “B” are the inlets, and port “C” is the outlet, the
valve becomes a mixing valve. With minor variations in position 2
the percentage of components at “A” and “B” can be varied to the
outlet “C”. This has been successfully applied to hydronic systems.

It may not be possible to isolate the ports from one another in any
position. If the valve is in position 1, and the pressure at port “B” is
significantly higher than port “A”, the ball may be forced off the seat
allowing mixing from all ports. Whether or not this is a problem
depends on the application and its sensitivity to unwanted mixing.
================================================

The situation where the pressure at port "B" is significantly higher than Port "A" is exactly what we have in the flush valve at the watermaker.  What happens is that the freshwater side "unseats" the ball and water leaks to the pre-filter and thus the seawater system.  Whether this is unique to Apollo's valves, or is typical of ball valves I don't know, but now I am very very suspicious.

You can test yours by shutting the seacock with the water pump on, noting the level of water in it, and observing for 12 hours.  Of course you must not use any seawater (no airconditioning, no toilets, etc.).  On mine it would fill about 1/3 full in 8 hours.

This represents a lot of water over the course of a month as well.

I'm planning on putting a shut-off valve on the fresh water prior to the flush valve.  That way I'll sleep better and I won't worry about the new 3-way valve leaking.

Duane


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Mizzen stay sail

Paul Osterberg
 

Thank you for your inputs, I will try some of your suggestions,especially to use the mizzen boom.
Have anyone tried to make a pool sticking out a bit say a foot, should not be to difficult to attache to the after cleat. Would benefit when sailing with the wind more aft.
Paul on SY Kerpa SM 259 in Exuma Bahamas