Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Modified SM Prop Shaft Seal Bush

Ian Shepherd
 

Bill,

my seals failed at 500 hours on my first boat for the first time, so assembled by Amel. It's too short a period. No signs of fish line either.

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece


On 08/08/2017 16:27, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 
Craig,

That is good information, but, you know me....self-proclaimed protector of Amel systems!

Please read my summary of why I believe in Amel's C-Drive design and service procedure:
The C-Drive will accommodate three seals and it is possible to orient two of the seals to either double the seal-capacity to keep oil IN, or keep water OUT. Which is more important? Seals fail and seals wear...and some owners and operators wait until failure before replacing. 

I firmly believe that Amel is correct, and I think that your engineer is mostly correct. The question is this: Which one of the above two choices is Low Risk? The C-Drive is expensive to replace. The C-Drive requires lubrication to keep it from failing. I prefer to ensure that oil stays in the C-Drive, more than I want to ensure that water stays out. My reason is because if oil leaks out, you may not know it until the damage is done...Conversely, if water leaks in, the oil will still have lubricating ability and you will see the evidence of the presence of oil in the reservoir. 

Additionally, I have personally serviced the C-Drive 6 times. I have audited, supervised, and taught C-Drive service another 12 times. I can assure everyone that if you get water egress, you have not followed the procedures, you have not serviced the C-Drive every 800 hours/2 years, or something like monofilament fishing line has ruined the seals.

One more thing about what the engineer wrote: He seems to ignore the fact that the harder the metal, the more that the Nitrile Buna-N seals will wear. Is it possible that Henri Amel knew that if the owner did not see wear-grooves, the owner would ignore the servicing intervals? I personally like to believe that this is part of the explanation because I believe he was a genius...but, you know me....self-proclaimed protector of Amel systems!

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970




On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 10:00 AM, sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Some time ago I asked SKF's engineering about this. Here's their reply to me:
"Craig, 
My educated guess is that the seals are not an issue in this application. The problem is with the Bronze bushing that is being used as a sealing surface. Bronze is generally quite soft and might not have the required hardness of Rockwell C 30 or higher. You have a few options to solve this issue:
• You can put SKF speedi-sleeve gold on the shaft (P/N 99830). You will probably have to install multiple sleeves as you have 3 seals next to each other.
• You can replace the bronze bushing with a hardened wear sleeve for better abrasion resistance. We can offer you a custom wear sleeve if needed.
• You can plate your bushing with a harder material (Chrome, ceramic, etc) to make it wear resistant.
Essentially, the harder the shaft is, the less grooving it will see. I also suggest you to make sure that you grease pack the area between the seals to make sure that the seals not in contact with the oil are well lubricated. A lack of lubrication can cause the seal and surface to wear quicker. Finally I would arrange the seals with 2 facing the water and one facing the oil as long as there is no pressure difference. 
Best regards, Jaydeep Laljani, Application Engineer, SKF USA

I wrote back and said:
"Many thanks for your analysis. Frankly, I have wondered why the manufacturer used Bronze in the first place and not stainless - they actually call it a "wearing-out bushing" (but then they do charge a lot for replacements :-). 
Next month I'm returning to the boat, which is in Turkey, and I can easily have a local shop turn a new bushing in 316 Stainless (the same material as the shaft and propeller, so no electrolysis issues.) I think that would solve the problem without going to sleeves or plating. 
As for the orientation of the seals, I like your suggestion of two facing the water and will do that the next time I change the seals. After all, we're really trying to keep the water out more than keeping the oil in. And, yes, indeed, I always pack the seals with a good water-proof grease and that helps, I'm sure. "

Jaydeep replied with:

"I think you might not get as much life as you want with 316 SS as it is still not up to the required hardness. If you want to go Stainless I recommend 17-4 Stainless steel which is harder. If you are going with the 316 SS I would recommend you to passivate it to improve corrosion resistance. " 

Hope that's helpful.
Cheers, Craig Briggs, SN#68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Hardness of stainless steel 316 does not vary tangible. Bushing from stainless 316 will  definitely last longer, but the bushing will cost much more. 316 steel is expensive and hard to machin. But it is very good corrosion resistant material, good for salt water. If people are interested I can find mashin shop that can make them. We have to order 100 bushings or more. Otherwise setup cost is too much.

Vladimir Sonsev
SM 345
"LIFE IS GOOD"


On Aug 7, 2017 10:57 AM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
Ian, All, and especially newbies;

....
<<<>>>
I am certainly no expert, but I believe that stainless steel comes in at least 5 types and also different hardnesses; and the Nitrile Buna-N seals are made in different hardnesses. Although I personally do not need the answer to the following questions, I believe anyone attempting to follow your recommendation should know: What type of stainless steel and hardness you used? What was the hardness of the seals? What were the engine hours between servicing?

I would guess that to obtain different results than the Amel-proven system, you have to either scientifically solve the wear issue to achieve a different balance between wear of the seal and wear of the bushing, or use a trial and error method. I assume that your method was trial and error, which resulted in changing the balance of wear between the wear bushing and the wear on the lips of the seals; which extended your haulout interval - your goal. 

We must remember that there will be wear between the lips of the seal and the wear bushing on the C-Drive. It is obvious to anyone who has serviced an Amel C-Drive that with the current Amel design the wear bushing appears to wear more than the seal lips. 

I would assume that one could scientifically change the balance to increase the interval of haulouts. However, it makes sense to me that unless a scientific approach is used, we would be playing Russian roulette with a very expensive part of our boat.

Don't take what I am saying as criticism. I am happy that you achieved your goal. My goal was to haul out every 2 years for more reasons than C-Drive maintenance.

I would urge all readers of this message to stick with proven Amel supplied parts and procedures, rather than changing something that you do not completely understand. I do not have the metallurgical and mechanical engineering expertise to develop a better system than Amel's wear bushing and seals, nor do I believe any of us have that knowledge. 

....
Until recently, I had no idea that the Nitrile Buna-N seals are available in a hardness range from 40-90, and I do not know the hardness of the Nitrile Buna-N lip seals that Amel uses. We all know that bronze, brass, and Naval brass are available in different hardnesses. I suspect that none of us know the hardness of the wear bushing that Amel uses, nor do we know the percent of copper, tin, and zinc . Without this information, I believe that changing the balance of wear between the bushing and the seal should not be attempted, unless you understand the huge risk for what, I believe, is very little reward.

Ian, it is very good to have you return to this forum. I have missed you and your posts. Probably none of us have more miles in a Super Maramu than you have.

​Best,​
Bill Rouse


 



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Modified SM Prop Shaft Seal Bush

Ian Shepherd
 

Interesting.Thank you Craig. I actually put the outer seal facing inwards as per the Amel diagram. My though being that you don't want the spring exposed to sea water. I have made a note of 17-4 and will specify that next time.

You probably know Sanai in Marmaris? Loads of good machine shops there.

Regards

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece


On 08/08/2017 15:00, sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

Some time ago I asked SKF's engineering about this. Here's their reply to me:
"Craig, 
My educated guess is that the seals are not an issue in this application. The problem is with the Bronze bushing that is being used as a sealing surface. Bronze is generally quite soft and might not have the required hardness of Rockwell C 30 or higher. You have a few options to solve this issue:
• You can put SKF speedi-sleeve gold on the shaft (P/N 99830). You will probably have to install multiple sleeves as you have 3 seals next to each other.
• You can replace the bronze bushing with a hardened wear sleeve for better abrasion resistance. We can offer you a custom wear sleeve if needed.
• You can plate your bushing with a harder material (Chrome, ceramic, etc) to make it wear resistant.
Essentially, the harder the shaft is, the less grooving it will see. I also suggest you to make sure that you grease pack the area between the seals to make sure that the seals not in contact with the oil are well lubricated. A lack of lubrication can cause the seal and surface to wear quicker. Finally I would arrange the seals with 2 facing the water and one facing the oil as long as there is no pressure difference. 
Best regards, Jaydeep Laljani, Application Engineer, SKF USA

I wrote back and said:
"Many thanks for your analysis. Frankly, I have wondered why the manufacturer used Bronze in the first place and not stainless - they actually call it a "wearing-out bushing" (but then they do charge a lot for replacements :-). 
Next month I'm returning to the boat, which is in Turkey, and I can easily have a local shop turn a new bushing in 316 Stainless (the same material as the shaft and propeller, so no electrolysis issues.) I think that would solve the problem without going to sleeves or plating. 
As for the orientation of the seals, I like your suggestion of two facing the water and will do that the next time I change the seals. After all, we're really trying to keep the water out more than keeping the oil in. And, yes, indeed, I always pack the seals with a good water-proof grease and that helps, I'm sure. "

Jaydeep replied with:

"I think you might not get as much life as you want with 316 SS as it is still not up to the required hardness. If you want to go Stainless I recommend 17-4 Stainless steel which is harder. If you are going with the 316 SS I would recommend you to passivate it to improve corrosion resistance. " 

Hope that's helpful.
Cheers, Craig Briggs, SN#68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

Hardness of stainless steel 316 does not vary tangible. Bushing from stainless 316 will  definitely last longer, but the bushing will cost much more. 316 steel is expensive and hard to machin. But it is very good corrosion resistant material, good for salt water. If people are interested I can find mashin shop that can make them. We have to order 100 bushings or more. Otherwise setup cost is too much.

Vladimir Sonsev
SM 345
"LIFE IS GOOD"


On Aug 7, 2017 10:57 AM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Ian, All, and especially newbies;

....
<<<>>>
I am certainly no expert, but I believe that stainless steel comes in at least 5 types and also different hardnesses; and the Nitrile Buna-N seals are made in different hardnesses. Although I personally do not need the answer to the following questions, I believe anyone attempting to follow your recommendation should know: What type of stainless steel and hardness you used? What was the hardness of the seals? What were the engine hours between servicing?

I would guess that to obtain different results than the Amel-proven system, you have to either scientifically solve the wear issue to achieve a different balance between wear of the seal and wear of the bushing, or use a trial and error method. I assume that your method was trial and error, which resulted in changing the balance of wear between the wear bushing and the wear on the lips of the seals; which extended your haulout interval - your goal. 

We must remember that there will be wear between the lips of the seal and the wear bushing on the C-Drive. It is obvious to anyone who has serviced an Amel C-Drive that with the current Amel design the wear bushing appears to wear more than the seal lips. 

I would assume that one could scientifically change the balance to increase the interval of haulouts. However, it makes sense to me that unless a scientific approach is used, we would be playing Russian roulette with a very expensive part of our boat.

Don't take what I am saying as criticism. I am happy that you achieved your goal. My goal was to haul out every 2 years for more reasons than C-Drive maintenance.

I would urge all readers of this message to stick with proven Amel supplied parts and procedures, rather than changing something that you do not completely understand. I do not have the metallurgical and mechanical engineering expertise to develop a better system than Amel's wear bushing and seals, nor do I believe any of us have that knowledge. 

....
Until recently, I had no idea that the Nitrile Buna-N seals are available in a hardness range from 40-90, and I do not know the hardness of the Nitrile Buna-N lip seals that Amel uses. We all know that bronze, brass, and Naval brass are available in different hardnesses. I suspect that none of us know the hardness of the wear bushing that Amel uses, nor do we know the percent of copper, tin, and zinc . Without this information, I believe that changing the balance of wear between the bushing and the seal should not be attempted, unless you understand the huge risk for what, I believe, is very little reward.

Ian, it is very good to have you return to this forum. I have missed you and your posts. Probably none of us have more miles in a Super Maramu than you have.

​Best,​
Bill Rouse


 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Bimini Alterations?

Ian Shepherd
 

Steve,

I raised the front frame on my new bimini by 7cms a side. This was done by cutting the side tubing above the attachment hole and welding in a 7cm length. After polishing you can't see the join. The frame still folds into the dodger top recess, but what you will probably need to do is machine up two Teflon spacers and put one each side of on the fixing pin between the tubing and the outer edge of the dodger. This ensures that when folding down the tube does not rub on the edge of the dodger. 7 cms gave me headroom to stand at the wheel and look through the unzipped from panel and suck in that glorious breeze! I believe that we might have gone a bit higher than 7 cms, but that would have spoilt the nice new parallel top of the bimini which enhance the look of the boat. Have a look at Crusader's photos as well. I will take a look tomorrow at the measurements of the spacers

Regards

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece

s

On 08/08/2017 02:00, steve_morrison@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

Thank you Pat.  When you say that you raised your bimini framing a few inches, how did you do that?  I assume that you mean that you had new arches shaped that stood taller than the originals?  Did you use the original attachment points on the downslope of the hard dodger (such that I would imagine that you are no longer able to get the bimini to fold and tuck into its original stowed position), or did you move the attachment points farther and aft lower to allow for longer arches that still stowed in the original position.  


Any of the other owners reading this that may have changed the geometry of the original stainless arch frames, where did you attach them, and can you still fold and secure the bimini to the top of the hard dodger?

I am not on my boat again until wednesday and thus can't remember whether the trailing edge of the hard dodger descends at at an angle greater than or less than a 45 degree angle, and therefor, whether moving the attachment points lower and aft with a lengthened arch would gain in overall height or not while still folding as the original.  

I will check for for your Shenanigans photos tonight.

All the best,
Steve Morrison
SM 380 TouRai
Brunswick, GA


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Modified SM Prop Shaft Seal Bush

Ian Shepherd
 

Vladimir,

Priviet! I paid €80 to have a new bush made in stainless.I don't consider that expensive especially considering that it has 4 grub screws and not two. I would guess that might be cheaper than a bronze bush from Amel? I wonder how different the material cost really is? Bronze is not that cheap. I have not had any trouble finding a machine shop that can turn stainless. As long as there is an unused bronze bush to copy, I think that we can find where to get them made wherever we are.

Ou darchi

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece


On 07/08/2017 23:06, Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

Hardness of stainless steel 316 does not vary tangible. Bushing from stainless 316 will  definitely last longer, but the bushing will cost much more. 316 steel is expensive and hard to machin. But it is very good corrosion resistant material, good for salt water. If people are interested I can find mashin shop that can make them. We have to order 100 bushings or more. Otherwise setup cost is too much.

Vladimir Sonsev
SM 345
"LIFE IS GOOD"


On Aug 7, 2017 10:57 AM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Ian, All, and especially newbies;

Most of you know that I have been and will always be the person in this group that warns everyone about changing an Amel design. It is nothing personal. I love all things Amel and I take it as my responsibility; so, because of that responsibility, I will offer the other side of CRUSADER's report and recommendation...nothing personal, but I am the self-appointed protector of all things Amel, and will always be the one to point out the RISK vs the REWARD in changing an Amel design.

<<<>>>
I am certainly no expert, but I believe that stainless steel comes in at least 5 types and also different hardnesses; and the Nitrile Buna-N seals are made in different hardnesses. Although I personally do not need the answer to the following questions, I believe anyone attempting to follow your recommendation should know: What type of stainless steel and hardness you used? What was the hardness of the seals? What were the engine hours between servicing?

I would guess that to obtain different results than the Amel-proven system, you have to either scientifically solve the wear issue to achieve a different balance between wear of the seal and wear of the bushing, or use a trial and error method. I assume that your method was trial and error, which resulted in changing the balance of wear between the wear bushing and the wear on the lips of the seals; which extended your haulout interval - your goal. 

We must remember that there will be wear between the lips of the seal and the wear bushing on the C-Drive. It is obvious to anyone who has serviced an Amel C-Drive that with the current Amel design the wear bushing appears to wear more than the seal lips. 

I would assume that one could scientifically change the balance to increase the interval of haulouts. However, it makes sense to me that unless a scientific approach is used, we would be playing Russian roulette with a very expensive part of our boat.

Don't take what I am saying as criticism. I am happy that you achieved your goal. My goal was to haul out every 2 years for more reasons than C-Drive maintenance.

I would urge all readers of this message to stick with proven Amel supplied parts and procedures, rather than changing something that you do not completely understand. I do not have the metallurgical and mechanical engineering expertise to develop a better system than Amel's wear bushing and seals, nor do I believe any of us have that knowledge. 

And, I will take this a step further: Many of the Amel systems that I have been exposed to, obviously take into consideration the required maintenance and the level of experience and knowledge of the person performing the job. When I managed new product development, I used the term "child proof." When I asked my staff if the new product was "child proof," they knew that I was asking if it would pass the test of the most ignorant user. I never met Henri Amel, but from my experience with his boats, I believe he also used my term, or one similar.

Until recently, I had no idea that the Nitrile Buna-N seals are available in a hardness range from 40-90, and I do not know the hardness of the Nitrile Buna-N lip seals that Amel uses. We all know that bronze, brass, and Naval brass are available in different hardnesses. I suspect that none of us know the hardness of the wear bushing that Amel uses, nor do we know the percent of copper, tin, and zinc . Without this information, I believe that changing the balance of wear between the bushing and the seal should not be attempted, unless you understand the huge risk for what, I believe, is very little reward.

Ian, it is very good to have you return to this forum. I have missed you and your posts. Probably none of us have more miles in a Super Maramu than you have.

​Best,​

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Good Service In Marmaris Turkey

Ian Shepherd
 










Kent,

they are already made. As I said to Raphael, the only way to have cushions made in my view is to have the upholsterer make templates first. That way you can get a really good fit. I can open my port cockpit locker with the cushions in place. In order to stop wear on the hinges he scalloped out around them. Have a look at the photos I posted.

Another improvement over my original La Rochelle cushions is doing away with that nasty velcro between the two halves that soon gets grubby and is very good for catching a genoa sheet when tacking. MY side cushions are in two halves with a vinyl hinge flap on the TOP side of the join. Another benefit of this is that when you don't want to plonk your toolbox down on the nice new cushion, you simple fold one half over the other to expose the seat.

Being such a good fit, snap connections don't seem necessary, but he used short straps and 3M adhesive snap connectors to hold the helmsman's cushion in place.

Thanks for your replay

Ian Shepherd SM2K 41 Crusader (2003) Kasteloriso Island Greece


On 07/08/2017 19:15, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 
I have seen an SM with cockpit cushions that snapped to the seats.  They were tapered outboard so that the cockpit seats could be raised without removing them.  I can send the measurements to you tomorrow.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Good Service In Marmaris Turkey

Ian Shepherd
 

I just answered that To Bill Kinney Bill. The crosscut sail was bent on after the weight increase. BTW my sail maker has just texted me that a crosscut sail is better for UV resistance, but a tri-radial holds its shape better. It's the shape of the leech and the UV burn in that area that always seems to get my sails. It's not helped in that Crusaders home berth faces north, exposing the wider than sometimes slot to the sun. With my new spectra mizzen we added a thin UV protective strip which has not impeded rolling it up. We shall see how long it lasts. My sail maker says 'Longer than you Ian'. He may well be right!

Cheers

Ian Shepherd SM2K 41 Crusader (2003) Kasteloriso Island Greece

On 07/08/2017 16:03, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@svbebe.com [amelyachtowners] wrote:
So, now I wonder if the sailing performance comparison of triradial vs slab sail construction was before and after the added weight to the bow? Questions, too many questions!

Bill Rouse

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 10:00 AM, greatketch@yahoo.com <mailto:greatketch@yahoo.com> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Ian,

Very helpful comments on your service experience. Thanks a lot
for the information about what worked for you. It is always good
to hear about boat projects gone right!

You comment in you post that you are added an extra 140 m of chain
to "get the stripes parallel to the water". They are not supposed
to be! The design of the boat is to have them sweep upward toward
the bow. This looks better (to many eyes) than a rigorously
horizontal stripe, and it brings the bottom paint up to cover the
area of the hull that is constantly covered by the bow wave when
sailing. The Amel SM has a rather straight shear line, and a bit
of curve lightens her appearance. But looks are not the real issue.

If you were to put so much weight into the bow that bow stripe was
approaching horizontal, you would be seriously compromising the
sailing performance of the boat. Adding weight to the bow, and to
a lesser extent the stern, causes the boat to "hobbyhorse" in
choppy seas, increases weather helm and leeway, slows her down in
light winds, and in general puts the boat out of balance. For a
boat to do well, she really needs to be sailed on the lines as she
was designed.

There is no way that your boat requires almost a half tonne of
extra weight (140 M of 10 mm chain) added to the bow to get her
trim right! You are adding weight to the boat in the worst
possible place to do so.

When I first bought /Harmonie /she was as close to her light ship
weight as she has ever been since she first splashed in La
Rochelle. I noted, as you did, that the boot stripe appeared
higher at the bow than the stern, and wondered if she was right on
her lines. I took one of Amel's scale drawings that came in her
paperwork, and measured from the rail to the design waterline at
the bow and stern. She was exactly where she was supposed to be.
I have since learned not to be surprised by such precision in
design and construction. When we loaded her up with all our
worldly possessions she lost about a centimeter of freeboard all
round.

Signed,
The Weight Nazi, aka,
Bill Kinney
SM160, /Harmonie/
Bar Harbor, Maine.



On 6 Aug 2017, at 21:34, Ian Shepherd sv_freespirit@...
<mailto:sv_freespirit@...> [amelyachtowners]
<amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Last month there were three SuperMaramu 2000's in the
Marmaris area, all
looking for a haul out, repair work, polish and antifouling.
One went to
Gocek, one went to Yat Marina in Marmaris Bay and I went to
Netsel
Marina Marmaris. One owner had OK service but suffered a lack of
attention to detail, another had a total disaster, and I
struck lucky
with with a result that exceeded my expectations by a long
way. I would
like to share my good experiences with other Amel owners who
might need
work done in Turkey.

Having sailed this area for the past 13 years with my Amel
and before
that with chartered yachts, I can safely say that I have
established who
really does a good job in this area. The purpose of this trip
was to
make my SM look good again. The red stripe had faded and
could not be
restored by others who tried at the previous haul out and the
port side
rub rail had suffered some damage from a large steel boat
that broke
it's mooring lines during a storm in Larnaca marina.

Two years ago I met Serdar Ak who runs Poseidon Yacht Service
based at
Netsel Marina Marmaris. You could not wish to meet a nicer
man who
really wants to do his best for you and his English is
excellent. For 17
years Serdar worked for Jeaneau Turkey specializing in
gelcoat and
painting. The locals assured me that he was the very best and
so I
booked a haul out and asked him to make Crusader look good
again. Serdar
also has a carbon fibre moulding company. Of the items he
makes there
are carbon fibre flag staffs and carbon fibre gangplanks with
the yachts
name embossed. Tempting! For those who might think that Netsel is
expensive, you would be right except that if you leave it to
Serdar, he
will get you a rate better than Yat Marina. A two way haul
out and 10
days in a cradle on the hard cost €955.

Within a few minutes of work on the red boot top stripes they
looked
like new. So good in fact that we decided not to move the
stripes to
make them parallel to the water. Instead we added a further
30M of
chain(now 140M), which has helped, but it is still not enough.

The whole boat was finished and polished so well that it
looks like
brand new. Serdar's workforce of three were unbelievably
conscientious,
and worked tirelessly until Serdar was completely satisfied
with the
result. All of them are perfectionists. There is no sign of
any damage
now and all the gel coat colours used match perfectly. When the
anti-fouling was rubbed down, it was all done carefully by
hand using a
special abrasive cloth from Finland. The paint was sprayed on
by Serdar
using a very impressive piece of kit, the same way Amel do.
The ballast
keel was renovated and treated against rust spots. I have
uploaded
photos of the excellent results.

Whilst on the hard I ran into a snag removing the mainsail
out-haul
gearbox. Surprise surprise. The drive shaft was refusing to
tap out of
the gearbox, which was disappointing as I make a point of
greasing it
every six months. Serdar suggested help from a man named
Mustafa who
runs a company called M2 Rigging and Yacht Services. First
impressions
of Mustafa were that he seemed a little too keen to help me,
but I soon
found out that it is just his manner, and that he is very
familiar with
servicing Amels.His business is well respected by the local
yacht owners.

After also failing to remove the shaft, he said the way that
he had
previously solved the problem several times was to cut the
shaft in two
with a hack saw, take the gearbox to his workshop where he
has a decent
press, then machine up a new shaft and weld it to the
original top piece
that the locking bolt passes through. This he did and not
many hours
later the new shaft was made and back on board. The magic of
Marmaris!
In the meantime Serdar was doing a proper paint job on the
gearboxes. I
am wondering if it might be worthwhile to have the shaft
machined to
take top and bottom O-rings to help keep seawater out, or at
least have
a top hat made up to shelter the shaft to gearbox bearing
area? Has
anyone done this?

Seeing that Mustafa owned a rigging company, I mentioned that
it was
time I changed my standing rigging. He offered me an ACMO
SuperMaramu
kit but using wire from Denmark for €7000 plus €1000 labour
including
all taxes. Two days later the job was done by his very
experienced team
of riggers. He reckons the Danish wire is better than the
wire ACMO use.
A full set of certifications and guaranty's was supplied. Richard
Piller, please note that I have decided not to replace the
plastic wire
sheaths, as per your advice! New wire looks great anyway and
one less
thing to worry about as the Med sun turns the plastic to
powder. He also
replaced the lower rail lifelines as they were beginning to
degrade.
After sailing hard for a week I brought Crusader back to M2
for a check
over and minor adjustments to the rig. All at no further charge.

My other renovation was to have all new cockpit and aft deck
cushions
made, and also the steering wheel, companion way, stair rail,
and head
protector leather replaced. For this I used Yasin Karabulut
who runs
Swarzewolke Upholstery near Netsel Marina . Yasin made me an
excellent
cockpit bimini two years ago which is a huge improvement on
the original
that came with the boat. Once again he did a top quality job
and and I
am very pleased with the work. His next task will be to make more
attractive curtains and maybe a full winter cover. Again
photos of his
work in the photos section.

Whilst on the hard I serviced my transmission which has a
stainless seal
bush and my bow thuster which is lubricated with lithium graphite
grease. I will post on my findings after 7 years of doing
this later.
However, I had a spare stainless bush made up whilst in
Marmaris by
Erinox Marine for €80. I have included their business card in
the photo
section. Tragically Ergun, the owner of Erinox, was killed
the very next
morning after I gave him the parts to copy, in a motorcycle
accident.
The company continues with his two partners, though they do
not speak
English well like Ergun did. R.I.P. You were a good man.

I have also included photos of the business cards of these four
companies plus the card of a very helpful and pleasant agent
who will
get you checked out of Turkey for €50.

I hope that this will be useful to anyone passing this area
who needs
work done. By the way, for those who believe the 'fake news',
I have
been in Turkey for six weeks and everything has been totally
calm and
normal. There are less foreign registered yachts about this
year, no
doubt some put off by the exaggerations of the press. It's
still a great
cruising area.

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Lindos Rhodes


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Good Service In Marmaris Turkey

Ian Shepherd
 

Bill,

yes you are right, but please take into considerations two things. Firstly, I always leave my poles rigged. This is because I use them a lot and also for added security. There is something to grab should I stumble when coming back to the cockpit. Being single handed, it's essential that I don't go overboard. The folded poles  limit slightly the sheeting angle, but even with the poles not present I would not sheet in further than the foot of the sail just about to touch the shrouds.Secondly I am talking about sailing with windward and leeward tell tales streaming correctly. I have sailed Crusader at 37 apparent in strong winds but the flow is not laminar over the whole sail, as as you know, Amel only demonstrate 40 degrees when handing the boat over.

Where to you have the genoa cars when close hauled? Mine are 2 inches aft of the rear fixing bolt on the side of the dodger.Our sails are probably not exactly the same of course. My upper windward tell tales are just twitching when sheeted in to the poles and the car in this position.

Regards

Ian Shepherd SM414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece


On 07/08/2017 21:32, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

If I figure the numbers right (39 +6) the old sail was only allowing 45 degrees apparent as the best pointing angle. That is truly awful and is hardly representative of a triradial sail's performance on a Super Maramu.  


Even 39 degrees apparent is not so great.  If I am working my way to windward in typical conditions, I expect to see 37 deg apparent, and 50 deg true. Of course you can only learn so much from apparent wind angles. The real question is velocity made good, over ground, to windward.  But that number is rarely ever talked about. 

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Bar Harbor, Maine.




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Good Service In Marmaris Turkey

Ian Shepherd
 

Thanks Paul,

Yes I too plan on 120 degrees when deciding when to tack. It would seem that tri-radial is better for shape keeping but not so UV resistant according to info received this evening from my sail maker.

Thanks for the reply

Ian Shepherd SM414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece

On 07/08/2017 22:49, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

We rarely do better than 120 degree between the tacks which I think is poor. I had hoped for better performance when we bought new sails from Q sails in Turkey, but with those sails we are probably a little worse than with the old ones.

We have tri-radial cutting which should give better form stability over time.
Paul on SY Kerpa SM 259


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Spade Anchor

Paul Osterberg
 

Ian and Attilio 
What size on the Fortress do you have, do you ever change the angle on the flukes? Fortress make a budget version where you can,t change the angle on the flukes. 
Paul 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Good Service In Marmaris Turkey

Ian Shepherd
 

Bill,


thanks for your thoughts. Do you know I have looked at the boot top on so many Amels that I am convinced that those on my red stripe are more angled upwards than earlier boats. They certainly do not alllook the same. My dislike is that when at rest the burgandy-white-burgandy boot top  from the exhaust outlets rearwards is partially submerged, collecting growth in an area that is difficult to clean, particularly under the stern. Yet on some SM's they are clear of the water. Maybe because the owners changed the stripes position as many have?

Yes as I previously said, I was brought up too on the philosophy of keeping weight out of the ends. However, when I made my first increase in chain length from the standard Amel (is it 70M?) I forget, to 110M for reasons of having more scope than trying to level the stripes, I found a marked improvement in the boats characteristics. Prior to the increase in weight Crusader was prone to slamming which is far from good for the boat. When I went to 110 metres of chain, the slamming stopped allowing me to sail her faster in short seas than before. In most conditions I can maintain 8 knots without concern. If you look at my FaceBook page there is a video uploaded about 10 days ago showing how she now carves her way through the water.

Adding another 30M last month does not seem to have had a detrimental effect. Yes she may take longer to accelerate, but she can still go like a ding bat. 8.5 sometimes 9 knots are still achievable even with my six year old genoa and main. I spent the whole of last night on a 75 mile crossing from Lindos to here in winds of of 6 knots from the aft port quarter and she still made 4 knots through the water (with the genoa poled out and mizzen).

In theory you are correct Bill and I appreciate your input. However in practice I am happy.

Regards

Ian Shepherd SM2K 41 Crusader (2003) Kasteloriso Island Greece


On 07/08/2017 15:00, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

Ian,

Very helpful comments on your service experience.  Thanks a lot for the information about what worked for you. It is always good to hear about boat projects gone right!

You comment in you post that you are added an extra 140 m of chain to "get the stripes parallel to the water".  They are not supposed to be!  The design of the boat is to have them sweep upward toward the bow.  This looks better (to many eyes) than a rigorously horizontal stripe, and it brings the bottom paint up to cover the area of the hull that is constantly covered by the bow wave when sailing. The Amel SM has a rather straight shear line, and a bit of curve lightens her appearance. But looks are not the real issue.

If you were to put so much weight into the bow that bow stripe was approaching horizontal, you would be seriously compromising the sailing performance of the boat.  Adding weight to the bow, and to a lesser extent the stern, causes the boat to "hobbyhorse" in choppy seas, increases weather helm and leeway, slows her down in light winds, and in general puts the boat out of balance.  For a boat to do well, she really needs to be sailed on the lines as she was designed.

There is no way that your boat requires almost a half tonne of extra weight (140 M of 10 mm chain)  added to the bow to get her trim right! You are adding weight to the boat in the worst possible place to do so.

When I first bought Harmonie she was as close to her light ship weight as she has ever been since she first splashed in La Rochelle.  I noted, as you did,  that the boot stripe appeared higher at the bow than the stern, and wondered if she was right on her lines.  I took one of Amel's scale drawings that came in her paperwork, and measured from the rail to the design waterline at the bow and stern.  She was exactly where she was supposed to be. I have since learned not to be surprised by such precision in design and construction.  When we loaded her up with all our worldly possessions she lost about a centimeter of freeboard all round.

Signed,
The Weight Nazi, aka,
Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Bar Harbor, Maine.


On 6 Aug 2017, at 21:34, Ian Shepherd sv_freespirit@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Last month there were three SuperMaramu 2000's in the Marmaris area, all 
looking for a haul out, repair work, polish and antifouling. One went to 
Gocek, one went to Yat Marina in Marmaris Bay and I went to Netsel 
Marina Marmaris. One owner had OK service but suffered a lack of 
attention to detail, another had a total disaster, and I struck lucky 
with with a result that exceeded my expectations by a long way. I would 
like to share my good experiences with other Amel owners who might need 
work done in Turkey.

Having sailed this area for the past 13 years with my Amel and before 
that with chartered yachts, I can safely say that I have established who 
really does a good job in this area. The purpose of this trip was to 
make my SM look good again. The red stripe had faded and could not be 
restored by others who tried at the previous haul out and the port side 
rub rail had suffered some damage from a large steel boat that broke 
it's mooring lines during a storm in Larnaca marina.

Two years ago I met Serdar Ak who runs Poseidon Yacht Service based at 
Netsel Marina Marmaris. You could not wish to meet a nicer man who 
really wants to do his best for you and his English is excellent. For 17 
years Serdar worked for Jeaneau Turkey specializing in gelcoat and 
painting. The locals assured me that he was the very best and so I 
booked a haul out and asked him to make Crusader look good again. Serdar 
also has a carbon fibre moulding company. Of the items he makes there 
are carbon fibre flag staffs and carbon fibre gangplanks with the yachts 
name embossed. Tempting! For those who might think that Netsel is 
expensive, you would be right except that if you leave it to Serdar, he 
will get you a rate better than Yat Marina. A two way haul out and 10 
days in a cradle on the hard cost €955.

Within a few minutes of work on the red boot top stripes they looked 
like new. So good in fact that we decided not to move the stripes to 
make them parallel to the water. Instead we added a further 30M of 
chain(now 140M), which has helped, but it is still not enough.

The whole boat was finished and polished so well that it looks like 
brand new. Serdar's workforce of three were unbelievably conscientious, 
and worked tirelessly until Serdar was completely satisfied with the 
result. All of them are perfectionists. There is no sign of any damage 
now and all the gel coat colours used match perfectly. When the 
anti-fouling was rubbed down, it was all done carefully by hand using a 
special abrasive cloth from Finland. The paint was sprayed on by Serdar 
using a very impressive piece of kit, the same way Amel do. The ballast 
keel was renovated and treated against rust spots. I have uploaded 
photos of the excellent results.

Whilst on the hard I ran into a snag removing the mainsail out-haul 
gearbox. Surprise surprise. The drive shaft was refusing to tap out of 
the gearbox, which was disappointing as I make a point of greasing it 
every six months. Serdar suggested help from a man named Mustafa who 
runs a company called M2 Rigging and Yacht Services. First impressions 
of Mustafa were that he seemed a little too keen to help me, but I soon 
found out that it is just his manner, and that he is very familiar with 
servicing Amels.His business is well respected by the local yacht owners.

After also failing to remove the shaft, he said the way that he had 
previously solved the problem several times was to cut the shaft in two 
with a hack saw, take the gearbox to his workshop where he has a decent 
press, then machine up a new shaft and weld it to the original top piece 
that the locking bolt passes through. This he did and not many hours 
later the new shaft was made and back on board. The magic of Marmaris! 
In the meantime Serdar was doing a proper paint job on the gearboxes. I 
am wondering if it might be worthwhile to have the shaft machined to 
take top and bottom O-rings to help keep seawater out, or at least have 
a top hat made up to shelter the shaft to gearbox bearing area? Has 
anyone done this?

Seeing that Mustafa owned a rigging company, I mentioned that it was 
time I changed my standing rigging. He offered me an ACMO SuperMaramu 
kit but using wire from Denmark for €7000 plus €1000 labour including 
all taxes. Two days later the job was done by his very experienced team 
of riggers. He reckons the Danish wire is better than the wire ACMO use. 
A full set of certifications and guaranty's was supplied. Richard 
Piller, please note that I have decided not to replace the plastic wire 
sheaths, as per your advice! New wire looks great anyway and one less 
thing to worry about as the Med sun turns the plastic to powder. He also 
replaced the lower rail lifelines as they were beginning to degrade. 
After sailing hard for a week I brought Crusader back to M2 for a check 
over and minor adjustments to the rig. All at no further charge.

My other renovation was to have all new cockpit and aft deck cushions 
made, and also the steering wheel, companion way, stair rail, and head 
protector leather replaced. For this I used Yasin Karabulut who runs 
Swarzewolke Upholstery near Netsel Marina . Yasin made me an excellent 
cockpit bimini two years ago which is a huge improvement on the original 
that came with the boat. Once again he did a top quality job and and I 
am very pleased with the work. His next task will be to make more 
attractive curtains and maybe a full winter cover. Again photos of his 
work in the photos section.

Whilst on the hard I serviced my transmission which has a stainless seal 
bush and my bow thuster which is lubricated with lithium graphite 
grease. I will post on my findings after 7 years of doing this later. 
However, I had a spare stainless bush made up whilst in Marmaris by 
Erinox Marine for €80. I have included their business card in the photo 
section. Tragically Ergun, the owner of Erinox, was killed the very next 
morning after I gave him the parts to copy, in a motorcycle accident. 
The company continues with his two partners, though they do not speak 
English well like Ergun did. R.I.P. You were a good man.

I have also included photos of the business cards of these four 
companies plus the card of a very helpful and pleasant agent who will 
get you checked out of Turkey for €50.

I hope that this will be useful to anyone passing this area who needs 
work done. By the way, for those who believe the 'fake news', I have 
been in Turkey for six weeks and everything has been totally calm and 
normal. There are less foreign registered yachts about this year, no 
doubt some put off by the exaggerations of the press. It's still a great 
cruising area.

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Lindos Rhodes




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Spade Anchor

Attilio Siviero <attilio.siviero@...>
 

Exactly same experience, spade fits perfectly and holds great,
Second rolled I used for fortress in strong winds anchoring like in Mykonos south bays, but after 3 days of 30-40 knots it was not easy to recover fortress because the rope was around spade chain, anyhow effective. Now in Naxos fortress safe in the lazarete with 8m chain and 50m rope, for next needs from stern or bow. One advice in general: I painted spade and first 5m of chain in white color, easier to see the ancor on bottom when inspected and useful when raising because when I see white chain stop the windlass because I know that the ancor is free. Hope it helps
Attilio SN#84 in Naxos, windy enough

Inviato da iPad

Il giorno 10 ago 2017, alle ore 21:24, parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> ha scritto:

 

Paul
The Santorin also has two bow rollers but I don't keep an anchor on the other one. I use that for an anchor snubber, and if in a marina with a 'slime line', that is a stern to mooring with a line out to a buoy or sinker, I can tighten things up with a length of rope over the spare roller using a rolling hitch and the left side of the windlass. Saves my ageing joints and muscles!
Luckily, so far, I haven't needed two anchors from the bow.
I once used the Spade with the Fortress off the stern to hold us straight amongst moored boats for three days of strong winds in Menorca. The Fortress was way harder to retrieve afterwards even passing the line to the bow and using the windlass!! I inherited a large Fortress with the boat which remains in the bow locker in pieces. When the day comes I will confidently deploy it as an extra from the bow.
Any which way, de-mountable light weight anchors that work well must come out high on the 'probability of use' in safety equipment compared with flares, life rafts etc.

Best wishes

Ian
Ocean Hobo


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Modified SM Prop Shaft Seal Bush

Ian Shepherd
 

Bill,

I believe that you are over complicating the issue. As far as  I remember the seals were from a local seal shop in Larnaca. I have no idea of the hardness but I can check when I get there next week as I bought more than I have used.

As far as the stainless is concerned, just plain old 316 is all I know. As Heinrich is no longer with us, I cannot find out, but maybe someone can test the bush which I still have.

The thing is Bill is that you are advocating people remain with a situation that we all know lets us down unexpectedly and often at an awkward time. You say you worry about protecting an expensive system yet you encourage owners to suffer sea water mixing with the lubricating oil. When this happens not everyone is in a position to haul out immediately. More damage may  be done if this happens

The benefits of what I have proven are:

The bush does not wear at anything like the rate of a bronze one.

As a result, it is now highly unlikely that the oil will be contaminated between say three year haul outs.

There is no electrolysis problem with stainless on stainless. at least not if lubricated with an anti corrosion grease such as Corrosion Block.

The fact that Amel are experimenting with a stainless surface indicates that this is the way to go. I am so glad that Amel have latched onto the idea, as they have with my idea of using sealed bearings in the bow thruster. Maybe they will look at a stainless sleeve on the bow thruster shaft too. It works!

You can protect the past all you want Bill, but my goal is to reduce nuisance servicing to the minimum so that I can enjoy sailing the boat.

Sometimes it pays to think outside the box.

Not sure about the mileage accolade. 48,273 as I speak almost all single handed. But then on an Amel that's easy!

Kindest regards to you and Judy

Ian Shepherd SM2K 41 Crusader (2003) Kasteloriso Island Greece


On 07/08/2017 14:48, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 
Ian, All, and especially newbies;

Most of you know that I have been and will always be the person in this group that warns everyone about changing an Amel design. It is nothing personal. I love all things Amel and I take it as my responsibility; so, because of that responsibility, I will offer the other side of CRUSADER's report and recommendation...nothing personal, but I am the self-appointed protector of all things Amel, and will always be the one to point out the RISK vs the REWARD in changing an Amel design.

<<<>>>
I am certainly no expert, but I believe that stainless steel comes in at least 5 types and also different hardnesses; and the Nitrile Buna-N seals are made in different hardnesses. Although I personally do not need the answer to the following questions, I believe anyone attempting to follow your recommendation should know: What type of stainless steel and hardness you used? What was the hardness of the seals? What were the engine hours between servicing?

I would guess that to obtain different results than the Amel-proven system, you have to either scientifically solve the wear issue to achieve a different balance between wear of the seal and wear of the bushing, or use a trial and error method. I assume that your method was trial and error, which resulted in changing the balance of wear between the wear bushing and the wear on the lips of the seals; which extended your haulout interval - your goal. 

We must remember that there will be wear between the lips of the seal and the wear bushing on the C-Drive. It is obvious to anyone who has serviced an Amel C-Drive that with the current Amel design the wear bushing appears to wear more than the seal lips. 

I would assume that one could scientifically change the balance to increase the interval of haulouts. However, it makes sense to me that unless a scientific approach is used, we would be playing Russian roulette with a very expensive part of our boat.

Don't take what I am saying as criticism. I am happy that you achieved your goal. My goal was to haul out every 2 years for more reasons than C-Drive maintenance.

I would urge all readers of this message to stick with proven Amel supplied parts and procedures, rather than changing something that you do not completely understand. I do not have the metallurgical and mechanical engineering expertise to develop a better system than Amel's wear bushing and seals, nor do I believe any of us have that knowledge. 

And, I will take this a step further: Many of the Amel systems that I have been exposed to, obviously take into consideration the required maintenance and the level of experience and knowledge of the person performing the job. When I managed new product development, I used the term "child proof." When I asked my staff if the new product was "child proof," they knew that I was asking if it would pass the test of the most ignorant user. I never met Henri Amel, but from my experience with his boats, I believe he also used my term, or one similar.

Until recently, I had no idea that the Nitrile Buna-N seals are available in a hardness range from 40-90, and I do not know the hardness of the Nitrile Buna-N lip seals that Amel uses. We all know that bronze, brass, and Naval brass are available in different hardnesses. I suspect that none of us know the hardness of the wear bushing that Amel uses, nor do we know the percent of copper, tin, and zinc . Without this information, I believe that changing the balance of wear between the bushing and the seal should not be attempted, unless you understand the huge risk for what, I believe, is very little reward.

Ian, it is very good to have you return to this forum. I have missed you and your posts. Probably none of us have more miles in a Super Maramu than you have.

​Best,​

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Good Service In Marmaris Turkey

Ian Shepherd
 

Hello Peter,


do you mean you can't access the photo's of the cards that I posted? Please let me know so that I can troubleshoot. Meanwhile I have sent them direct to you. BTW are you the Peter that once had a Santorin and a business opposite Harod's? If so we met many years ago. I am envious of your 54!

Regards

Ian Shepherd SM2K 41 Crusader (2003) Kasteloriso Island Greece


On 07/08/2017 11:18, Peter Forbes ppsforbes@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

Ian,


That is brilliant data on service in Turkey - but I couldn’t get the contact details - can you send them somehow.

Peter
Peter Forbes
0044 7836 209730
Carango  Sailing Ketch
Amel 54 #035
In a Hurricane cradle in Grenada

On 6 Aug 2017, at 21:34, Ian Shepherd sv_freespirit@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Last month there were three SuperMaramu 2000's in the Marmaris area, all 
looking for a haul out, repair work, polish and antifouling. One went to 
Gocek, one went to Yat Marina in Marmaris Bay and I went to Netsel 
Marina Marmaris. One owner had OK service but suffered a lack of 
attention to detail, another had a total disaster, and I struck lucky 
with with a result that exceeded my expectations by a long way. I would 
like to share my good experiences with other Amel owners who might need 
work done in Turkey.

Having sailed this area for the past 13 years with my Amel and before 
that with chartered yachts, I can safely say that I have established who 
really does a good job in this area. The purpose of this trip was to 
make my SM look good again. The red stripe had faded and could not be 
restored by others who tried at the previous haul out and the port side 
rub rail had suffered some damage from a large steel boat that broke 
it's mooring lines during a storm in Larnaca marina.

Two years ago I met Serdar Ak who runs Poseidon Yacht Service based at 
Netsel Marina Marmaris. You could not wish to meet a nicer man who 
really wants to do his best for you and his English is excellent. For 17 
years Serdar worked for Jeaneau Turkey specializing in gelcoat and 
painting. The locals assured me that he was the very best and so I 
booked a haul out and asked him to make Crusader look good again. Serdar 
also has a carbon fibre moulding company. Of the items he makes there 
are carbon fibre flag staffs and carbon fibre gangplanks with the yachts 
name embossed. Tempting! For those who might think that Netsel is 
expensive, you would be right except that if you leave it to Serdar, he 
will get you a rate better than Yat Marina. A two way haul out and 10 
days in a cradle on the hard cost €955.

Within a few minutes of work on the red boot top stripes they looked 
like new. So good in fact that we decided not to move the stripes to 
make them parallel to the water. Instead we added a further 30M of 
chain(now 140M), which has helped, but it is still not enough.

The whole boat was finished and polished so well that it looks like 
brand new. Serdar's workforce of three were unbelievably conscientious, 
and worked tirelessly until Serdar was completely satisfied with the 
result. All of them are perfectionists. There is no sign of any damage 
now and all the gel coat colours used match perfectly. When the 
anti-fouling was rubbed down, it was all done carefully by hand using a 
special abrasive cloth from Finland. The paint was sprayed on by Serdar 
using a very impressive piece of kit, the same way Amel do. The ballast 
keel was renovated and treated against rust spots. I have uploaded 
photos of the excellent results.

Whilst on the hard I ran into a snag removing the mainsail out-haul 
gearbox. Surprise surprise. The drive shaft was refusing to tap out of 
the gearbox, which was disappointing as I make a point of greasing it 
every six months. Serdar suggested help from a man named Mustafa who 
runs a company called M2 Rigging and Yacht Services. First impressions 
of Mustafa were that he seemed a little too keen to help me, but I soon 
found out that it is just his manner, and that he is very familiar with 
servicing Amels.His business is well respected by the local yacht owners.

After also failing to remove the shaft, he said the way that he had 
previously solved the problem several times was to cut the shaft in two 
with a hack saw, take the gearbox to his workshop where he has a decent 
press, then machine up a new shaft and weld it to the original top piece 
that the locking bolt passes through. This he did and not many hours 
later the new shaft was made and back on board. The magic of Marmaris! 
In the meantime Serdar was doing a proper paint job on the gearboxes. I 
am wondering if it might be worthwhile to have the shaft machined to 
take top and bottom O-rings to help keep seawater out, or at least have 
a top hat made up to shelter the shaft to gearbox bearing area? Has 
anyone done this?

Seeing that Mustafa owned a rigging company, I mentioned that it was 
time I changed my standing rigging. He offered me an ACMO SuperMaramu 
kit but using wire from Denmark for €7000 plus €1000 labour including 
all taxes. Two days later the job was done by his very experienced team 
of riggers. He reckons the Danish wire is better than the wire ACMO use. 
A full set of certifications and guaranty's was supplied. Richard 
Piller, please note that I have decided not to replace the plastic wire 
sheaths, as per your advice! New wire looks great anyway and one less 
thing to worry about as the Med sun turns the plastic to powder. He also 
replaced the lower rail lifelines as they were beginning to degrade. 
After sailing hard for a week I brought Crusader back to M2 for a check 
over and minor adjustments to the rig. All at no further charge.

My other renovation was to have all new cockpit and aft deck cushions 
made, and also the steering wheel, companion way, stair rail, and head 
protector leather replaced. For this I used Yasin Karabulut who runs 
Swarzewolke Upholstery near Netsel Marina . Yasin made me an excellent 
cockpit bimini two years ago which is a huge improvement on the original 
that came with the boat. Once again he did a top quality job and and I 
am very pleased with the work. His next task will be to make more 
attractive curtains and maybe a full winter cover. Again photos of his 
work in the photos section.

Whilst on the hard I serviced my transmission which has a stainless seal 
bush and my bow thuster which is lubricated with lithium graphite 
grease. I will post on my findings after 7 years of doing this later. 
However, I had a spare stainless bush made up whilst in Marmaris by 
Erinox Marine for €80. I have included their business card in the photo 
section. Tragically Ergun, the owner of Erinox, was killed the very next 
morning after I gave him the parts to copy, in a motorcycle accident. 
The company continues with his two partners, though they do not speak 
English well like Ergun did. R.I.P. You were a good man.

I have also included photos of the business cards of these four 
companies plus the card of a very helpful and pleasant agent who will 
get you checked out of Turkey for €50.

I hope that this will be useful to anyone passing this area who needs 
work done. By the way, for those who believe the 'fake news', I have 
been in Turkey for six weeks and everything has been totally calm and 
normal. There are less foreign registered yachts about this year, no 
doubt some put off by the exaggerations of the press. It's still a great 
cruising area.

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Lindos Rhodes




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Thomson Washer major water flooding !!!

Ian Shepherd
 

Jose,

I and another SM 2000 I know of had exactly the same problem.In my case 600 litres of water were consumed and ended up in the underfloor compartments. I swore never to use the dammed thing again, but after nine months or so curiosity led me to trouble shoot. The trouble is that next time I used it it worked perfectly and has ever since. The same with the other boat. The only contribution I can make is that a few months ago I found the washer nearly full of water even though it had not been used, all my biscuits were afloat! My guess is that the water fill valve may be suspect. Fitting a stop cock in the feed line might be a good idea.

Frustrating, but I can't help. All the pipework looks good and the cycle looks perfects normal.

Good luck

Ian Shepherd SM2K 41 Crusader (2003) Kasteloriso Island Greece


On 06/08/2017 18:36, jvenegas@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

The last time we tried to use the washer, it worked fine until  the rinsing cycle and after a few minutes it started to dump water to the floor.  It was not just a small leak it was a major flood!!!.  When I turned the electricity off, the leak continued for a while and then stoped but the drum was full of water (about 2/3 of the top).  Today I removed the enclosure and repeated the operation. The white drain hose is not obstructed  but I was unable to see if water was being pumped out. I checked pump in the front and it did not seem to have any thing stoping the rotor from spinning.  My thought is that perhaps the pump is not working and the water from the first was does not drain.  So when the second rinsing water is introduced it fills it all the way, eventually getting out. 


Any thoughts?  How could I see if the pump is working?


Thanks a lot 


Jose Venegas

Ipanema SM200 278, 

Boston




Re: Spade Anchor

Ian Park
 

Paul
The Santorin also has two bow rollers but I don't keep an anchor on the other one. I use that for an anchor snubber, and if in a marina with a 'slime line', that is a stern to mooring with a line out to a buoy or sinker, I can tighten things up with a length of rope over the spare roller using a rolling hitch and the left side of the windlass. Saves my ageing joints and muscles!
Luckily, so far, I haven't needed two anchors from the bow.
I once used the Spade with the Fortress off the stern to hold us straight amongst moored boats for three days of strong winds in Menorca. The Fortress was way harder to retrieve afterwards even passing the line to the bow and using the windlass!! I inherited a large Fortress with the boat which remains in the bow locker in pieces. When the day comes I will confidently deploy it as an extra from the bow.
Any which way, de-mountable light weight anchors that work well must come out high on the 'probability of use' in safety equipment compared with flares, life rafts etc.

Best wishes

Ian
Ocean Hobo


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Genoa sheet broke under sail - looking for recommendations for replacement [1 Attachment]

greatketch@...
 


One defect that can cause a relatively low load failure with double braid is an imbalance between the core and the cover.  With double braid line both carry the load, more or less equally.  If at some point during manufacture, or in handling afterwards, one becomes "slack" relative to the other, the load is no longer properly shared and premature failure can happen.

This does not happen with exotics, where the core is low stretch, high load material and the outer braid is just a sun and abrasion cover that has no significant contribution to the strength of the line.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Bar Harbor, Maine.



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Genoa sheet broke under sail - looking for recommendations for replacement [1 Attachment]

svperegrinus@yahoo.com
 

Hello Bill Kinney,

Thank you for your detailed and informative post.

My broken line is 16mm polyester double braid.  Alpha Ropes states its breaking strength is 12,125 lbs.

This line broke at 39 knots apparent on a 54 sq m sail, so, per Harken's:

581 sq ft * 39kn ^2 * .00431 = 3,809 lbs

So my Alpha Ropes broke at 1/3 of its rated breaking load.

Possible causes you mention:

Tight against sharp edge: it broke at the turn of the block on top of the genoa car track.  This is an unmodified factory original Amel track car and block, used in several hundred Super Maramus.

Chafed or damaged: the cover on the broken line looks smooth and good as new.  Its twin on the other side looks smooth and good as new.  No detectable chafe.

Bowline:  the failed line broke 1.6 meters away from the tension point on its knot at the sail clew.

I am afraid this leaves "manufacturing defect" as the only other choice from your e-mail.

Oh well!  I guess no more Alpha Ropes for this boat!

Best,


Peregrinus
SM2K Nr. 350 (2002)
At anchor, Kea




---In amelyachtowners@..., <greatketch@...> wrote :

This is WAY more information on jib sheets than any sane person could want...  but we are sailors, so by definition our sanity is suspect!

Let's refresh our memory about what the original factory spec for Super Maramu Jib sheets was from Amel:

16mm (~5/8 inch) polyester double braid.  Nothing fancy.  Amel used low-stretch exotics on their boats where it mattered, and avoided them where it did not.  

Line of this type, at best, has a typical breaking strength of 16,000 lbs, and 41 meters of it will cost about $350.  There is no need for the strength (and cost!) of dyneema in this application.  The reason to spend money on exotics like dyneema is they allow you to downsize the line, keep the strength and lose the weight, OR keep the size and reduce stretch to a bare minimum.  Neither is something we really care about in this application.

Just to put us in the ballpark for what we need, Harken has published a formula for estimating the genoa sheet load based on sail size and wind strength.  

SL = SA x V2 x 0.00431
   SL = Sheet load in pounds
   SA = Sail area in square feet
   V = Wind speed in knots.

For a 700 square foot genoa, fully out, in 40 knots of wind, the predicted sheet loads are about 4800 pounds.  50 knots bumps this up to 7500 pounds, and I very much doubt the sail itself is strong enough for much past that.

It is important to understand that jib sheets are not (usually) selected based on breaking strength.  They are selected for ease in handling, and for most boats, anything that is big enough to handle comfortably is way, way, more than strong enough.

Certainly if you want to use something bigger than this because it is comfortable to handle, go ahead--it's not a huge deal. But understand that bigger lines do have a cost other than just money.  The extra weight means the sail take more wind to "fly" and it will cut the boat's light air performance.  

Anytime a line breaks in the middle, we can assume there was a reason other than simple load.  It might have chaffed or damaged in some way, there might be a manufacturing defect, it might have come tight against a sharp edge.  I can say this with confidence, because even the best tied bowline will reduce the strength of the line by at least 40%, and will ALWAYS be the weak point.  With exotics (dyneema, spectra, etc) the knots are an even tougher problem.  The lines are "slippery" and don't take to the crushing loads in a knot well at all.  To keep anywhere near the full strength, they need to be spliced.  If you tie a knot, it's likely you don't have any more real world strength than you would have had with a polyester double braid!

For what it is worth, I do not use a bowline on my jib sheets, rather I use a single length, and larks head the line to the clew of the sail.  It is not any stronger, but it never hangs up on the shrouds on a tack.  You can't always do this with exotic lines because they can be slippery enough they slide under heavy load.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Bar Harbor, Maine.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Genoa sheet broke under sail - looking for recommendations for replacement

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Well, looks like I got ripped off one more time…
Thanks for the info Bill.



--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 8/10/17, greatketch@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Genoa sheet broke under sail - looking for recommendations for replacement
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 10, 2017, 8:13 AM


 









This is WAY more information on jib sheets than any
sane person could want...  but we are sailors, so by
definition our sanity is suspect!
Let's refresh our memory about
what the original factory spec for Super Maramu Jib sheets
was from Amel:
16mm (~5/8
inch) polyester double braid.  Nothing fancy.  Amel used
low-stretch exotics on their boats where it mattered, and
avoided them where it did not.  
Line of this type, at best, has a
typical breaking strength of 16,000 lbs, and 41 meters of it
will cost about $350.  There is no need for the strength
(and cost!) of dyneema in this application.  The reason to
spend money on exotics like dyneema is they allow you to
downsize the line, keep the strength and lose the weight, OR
keep the size and reduce stretch to a bare minimum.
 Neither is something we really care about in this
application.
Just to
put us in the ballpark for what we need, Harken has
published a formula for estimating the genoa sheet load
based on sail size and wind strength.  
SL = SA x V2 x 0.00431
   SL = Sheet load in
pounds   SA = Sail area in square
feet   V = Wind speed in
knots.
For a 700
square foot genoa, fully out, in 40 knots of wind, the
predicted sheet loads are about 4800 pounds.  50 knots
bumps this up to 7500 pounds, and I very much doubt the sail
itself is strong enough for much past
that.
It is
important to understand that jib sheets are not (usually)
selected based on breaking strength.  They are selected for
ease in handling, and for most boats, anything that is big
enough to handle comfortably is way, way, more than strong
enough.
Certainly if
you want to use something bigger than this because it is
comfortable to handle, go ahead--it's not a huge deal.
But understand that bigger lines do have a cost other than
just money.  The extra weight means the sail take more wind
to "fly" and it will cut the boat's light air
performance.  
Anytime a line breaks in the middle,
we can assume there was a reason other than simple load.
 It might have chaffed or damaged in some way, there might
be a manufacturing defect, it might have come tight against
a sharp edge.  I can say this with confidence, because even
the best tied bowline will reduce the strength of the line
by at least 40%, and will ALWAYS be the weak point.  With
exotics (dyneema, spectra, etc) the knots are an even
tougher problem.  The lines are "slippery" and
don't take to the crushing loads in a knot well at all.
 To keep anywhere near the full strength, they need to be
spliced.  If you tie a knot, it's likely you don't
have any more real world strength than you would have had
with a polyester double braid!
For what it is worth, I do not use a
bowline on my jib sheets, rather I use a single length, and
larks head the line to the clew of the sail.  It is not any
stronger, but it never hangs up on the shrouds on a tack.
 You can't always do this with exotic lines because
they can be slippery enough they slide under heavy
load.
Bill
KinneySM160, HarmonieBar
Harbor, Maine.


Re: Spade Anchor

Paul Osterberg
 

Ian
Do you have both on bow roller? The SM has two Bow rollers, but the roller bar on my 40 kg Rocna block the second bow roller so I have to stored my spare anchor in the bow locker.
We have a small Fortress as stern anchor as well, which we only use in very light wind if we risk getting sideways to the swell, then we deploy the Fortress Andy keep the bow towards the swell and sleep much more comfortable.
Luckily we only have needed it a few times.
Paul SY Kerpa SM259


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Genoa sheet broke under sail - looking for recommendations for replacement

Stephen Davis
 

Great Post Bill! Thanks

Steve Davis
Aloha SM72
Aruba

On Aug 10, 2017, at 09:13, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

This is WAY more information on jib sheets than any sane person could want...  but we are sailors, so by definition our sanity is suspect!


Let's refresh our memory about what the original factory spec for Super Maramu Jib sheets was from Amel:

16mm (~5/8 inch) polyester double braid.  Nothing fancy.  Amel used low-stretch exotics on their boats where it mattered, and avoided them where it did not.  

Line of this type, at best, has a typical breaking strength of 16,000 lbs, and 41 meters of it will cost about $350.  There is no need for the strength (and cost!) of dyneema in this application.  The reason to spend money on exotics like dyneema is they allow you to downsize the line, keep the strength and lose the weight, OR keep the size and reduce stretch to a bare minimum.  Neither is something we really care about in this application.

Just to put us in the ballpark for what we need, Harken has published a formula for estimating the genoa sheet load based on sail size and wind strength.  

SL = SA x V2 x 0.00431
   SL = Sheet load in pounds
   SA = Sail area in square feet
   V = Wind speed in knots.

For a 700 square foot genoa, fully out, in 40 knots of wind, the predicted sheet loads are about 4800 pounds.  50 knots bumps this up to 7500 pounds, and I very much doubt the sail itself is strong enough for much past that.

It is important to understand that jib sheets are not (usually) selected based on breaking strength.  They are selected for ease in handling, and for most boats, anything that is big enough to handle comfortably is way, way, more than strong enough.

Certainly if you want to use something bigger than this because it is comfortable to handle, go ahead--it's not a huge deal. But understand that bigger lines do have a cost other than just money.  The extra weight means the sail take more wind to "fly" and it will cut the boat's light air performance.  

Anytime a line breaks in the middle, we can assume there was a reason other than simple load.  It might have chaffed or damaged in some way, there might be a manufacturing defect, it might have come tight against a sharp edge.  I can say this with confidence, because even the best tied bowline will reduce the strength of the line by at least 40%, and will ALWAYS be the weak point.  With exotics (dyneema, spectra, etc) the knots are an even tougher problem.  The lines are "slippery" and don't take to the crushing loads in a knot well at all.  To keep anywhere near the full strength, they need to be spliced.  If you tie a knot, it's likely you don't have any more real world strength than you would have had with a polyester double braid!

For what it is worth, I do not use a bowline on my jib sheets, rather I use a single length, and larks head the line to the clew of the sail.  It is not any stronger, but it never hangs up on the shrouds on a tack.  You can't always do this with exotic lines because they can be slippery enough they slide under heavy load.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Bar Harbor, Maine.