Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

eric freedman
 

Isn’t calcium hypochlorite usually uses as a powder and sodium hypochlorite usually used as a liquid?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 2:11 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

 

 

Joel,

 

Your chemical engineer on call suggests that you might be looking for calcium hypochlorite rather than calcium chloride.

 

Other than that...  just like you said!

 

Bill Kinney

Sm160, Harmonie

Back Creek, Annapolis, MD

 

 


Copper and clorox

eric freedman
 

 

Hi Joel,

I believe sodium hypochlorite is Clorox,  We use it sometimes in high  alloy gold castings to create an aged finish (patina).

I use it infrequently and always flush everything with water and always offshore . The Clorox mix only stays in the piping for 12 hours and then overboard. Works for me so far but that is a survey of 1.

I like the idea of vinegar in the bilge.

 

Just as an additional thought, I found that the rubber hoses that connects the metallic pipes of the intercooler on the 4jh3hte to the Turbo and the intake manifold had split. It is very difficult to see as the cracks are small. However I saw an increase in performance immediately when the hoses were changed. They crack due to the step that is on the top of the intercooler. After many times in and out of the engine room the hose wears out.

Just my finding for the day.  Have you seen this before?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 1:19 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

 

 

Hi Eric. CLOROX/calcium chloride has an extremely deleterious effect on the ‘mystery metal’ which seems to be more copper than bronze, on the outlets of the holding tanks. When I get a new listing, I check to see if any toilet cleaner products are aboard with calcium chloride as an ingredient. More often than not if these are used, I can then find small pin hole leaks on the pipes exiting the holding tanks to the through hull valves. Often these pipes are in full failure. Replacement is not fun, easy or in any way pleasant and rewarding. It is, quite literally, a crappy job as those of us who have done it can attest.

 

On the initiation schooling I give to all my’ new to them’ Amel owners, I strongly suggest not to even have CLOROX aboard. It is an extreme oxidizer and chews up rubber seals and pump parts, the copper strap in the bilge sump joining the iron ballast to the zincs, and accelerates aging on almost everything it touches.

 

White vinegar is a softer solution. Not as good in some cases, but not as ugly and aggressive either.

 

Have fun with your Amel, Joel

 

Joel F. Potter/Cruising Yacht Specialist LLC

THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY

954 462 5869 office

954 812 2485 cell

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:32 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

 

 

I had a similar problem when I originally received Kimberlite from Amel. It was delivered with electric toilets.

 

The solution I found was to hold down the red flush button for 10 seconds.

This puts just salt water in the hose and whatever came out of the toilet is now in the tank and

just salt water returns to the bowl. You might try pumping the toilet more to get just salt water in the hose.

I also originally had to change the toilet to tank hose every few years due to permeation of odor in the hose. Now with a 10 second flush I have not had to change the hose in over 10 years.

 

I have 2 problems with the electric toilet.

When the boats sits for a few days the salt water in the tubing has a sulfur dioxide odor for the first flush—very smelly. Possibly someone else has a better solution, for us I add Clorox to the sea chest with water and operate the toilet until I smell Clorox. I let this sit for 12 hours.  The water comes out black on the first flush and then no more smell for a while. I bought the fresh water flush valve and initially intended to use it for a fresh water flush. However I hate to waste fresh water , so I stayed with salt water.

 

The other problem is the weakness of the base of the toilet. I have had to replace the forward base twice. Probably because we make passages with three other people and it gets more use.

 

Any suggestions to solve these issues?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 8:28 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

 

 

I cannot address the electric head issue, as we have manual Jabsco’s. Our boat was right on the cusp of switching from manual to electric. 

That said, after having owned our fair ship for 8 years, I would like to solicit others’ experience. 

We have two standard manual Jabsco’s. Do other SM owners with manual heads also have Jabsco’s?

I ask that, because they have been such a huge problem for us. I know that heads are often at the top of the list for maintaining. 

However, ours have been particularly gruesome The positioning of the holding tanks nearly a meter above the bottom of the head means a constant battle to prevent black water (extreme euphemism) from flowing back into the bowl, at times filling it. In the dark, the ladies can be very rudely surprised. 

We have tried almost everything: changing joker (tricuspid) valves every month, purchasing the newer Jabsco “lock” handle mechanism, and finally putting an extra in-line valve between the head and the holding tank. 

It is quite a bit better, but gravity still sometimes wins. 

Are we alone? 

Appreciate any feedback from this invaluable forum (for non-native English speakers, invaluable doesn’t mean not valuable, but rather extremely valuable). Don’t ask me why, not sure. For example, inhospitable means “not hospitable”, but inflammable means “extremely flammable”. 

But I digress. Thanks again as always. 

 

Tom Peacock

SM 240Aletes

Rock Hall, Maryland

Departing for Antigua November 3

 


On Oct 11, 2017, at 7:52 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Ian and Margaret,

 

Like you, our SM has two factory installed manual heads.  We are happy with them and have no plans to change them.

 

My experience with the Jabsco electric heads is very limited, and pretty much all bad--in some cases really bad! My sample size is small, and they really can't be as bad my impressions...  but I wouldn't go that way.

 

For 15 years I lived on a boat that had a Sealand Vacuflush.  It was fantastic.  Reliable.  If flushed with a tiny, tiny bit of fresh water (really important with Amel's tiny, tiny holding tanks!) 

 

If I wanted to swap out to electric heads that would be the way I would go without a second thought.  Installation in an Amel would take a bit of thinking, but they have lots of configuration options.

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Back Creek, Annapolis, MD

---In amelyachtowners@..., <smlocalola@...> wrote :

Our SM has two manual heads, both Jabsco. We are looking at Installing Jabsco Quiet Flush Electric Heads. They seem to fit the SM head floor pan cut out nicely. Any opinions on number of electric heads? Two electric or one+manual? Other things we should consider?





Ian & Margaret

SM153

Loca Lola II 

New River, Fort Lauderdale, Florida


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

Thomas Peacock
 

Our backflow problem has been much better the last 2 years with some modifications, but still not ideal. 

I bought the locking pump mechanism as an entire new unit. Not much more $ than a rebuild kit. There is a bayonet in the lock that puts downward pressure on the flapper valve. That helped somewhat. 
I then bought an in line valve (also a Jabsco part) that I inserted in the hose about three inches after it exits the head on its way to the tank. That helped immensely for about a year, then the backflow ensued.  I took the in line valve out and cleaned it, some sludge had accumulated. After putting it back, the head seems great again. Maybe there’s a trick in terms of flushing to prevent the sludge from accumulating. 

Bottom line, it’s worth buying the locking pump and in line valve. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. 

One more tip, Defender sells a much more flexible black water hose. Immensely easier to work with. It’s called Raritan Sani. I highly recommend it. 

Tom Peacock
Aletes SM 240


On Oct 12, 2017, at 2:21 PM, Ryan Meador ryan.d.meador@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I have Jabsco manual heads on my boat, and both of them exhibit the black water backflow problem Tom mentioned.  I was advised by the previous owner to flush extra seawater through so when (not if) they backflow, it will be "clean" water.  This works to a point.  If the holding tank is sufficiently full, it will backflow seemingly directly from the tank.  I suspect this is when the level of waste in the tank rises above the level of the discharge hose from the head, allowing it to siphon backwards until the level drops again.  I do not have a solution except to get pumped out more often.  I was considering swapping the heads for the version with the locking handle, does that really not work?  It seems like it should.  I'd love a better solution!

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:11 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Joel,


Your chemical engineer on call suggests that you might be looking for calcium hypochlorite rather than calcium chloride.

Other than that...  just like you said!

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

Ryan Meador
 

I have Jabsco manual heads on my boat, and both of them exhibit the black water backflow problem Tom mentioned.  I was advised by the previous owner to flush extra seawater through so when (not if) they backflow, it will be "clean" water.  This works to a point.  If the holding tank is sufficiently full, it will backflow seemingly directly from the tank.  I suspect this is when the level of waste in the tank rises above the level of the discharge hose from the head, allowing it to siphon backwards until the level drops again.  I do not have a solution except to get pumped out more often.  I was considering swapping the heads for the version with the locking handle, does that really not work?  It seems like it should.  I'd love a better solution!

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:11 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Joel,


Your chemical engineer on call suggests that you might be looking for calcium hypochlorite rather than calcium chloride.

Other than that...  just like you said!

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

greatketch@...
 

Joel,

Your chemical engineer on call suggests that you might be looking for calcium hypochlorite rather than calcium chloride.

Other than that...  just like you said!

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

amelforme
 

Hi Eric. CLOROX/calcium chloride has an extremely deleterious effect on the ‘mystery metal’ which seems to be more copper than bronze, on the outlets of the holding tanks. When I get a new listing, I check to see if any toilet cleaner products are aboard with calcium chloride as an ingredient. More often than not if these are used, I can then find small pin hole leaks on the pipes exiting the holding tanks to the through hull valves. Often these pipes are in full failure. Replacement is not fun, easy or in any way pleasant and rewarding. It is, quite literally, a crappy job as those of us who have done it can attest.

 

On the initiation schooling I give to all my’ new to them’ Amel owners, I strongly suggest not to even have CLOROX aboard. It is an extreme oxidizer and chews up rubber seals and pump parts, the copper strap in the bilge sump joining the iron ballast to the zincs, and accelerates aging on almost everything it touches.

 

White vinegar is a softer solution. Not as good in some cases, but not as ugly and aggressive either.

 

Have fun with your Amel, Joel

 

Joel F. Potter/Cruising Yacht Specialist LLC

THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY

954 462 5869 office

954 812 2485 cell

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:32 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

 

 

I had a similar problem when I originally received Kimberlite from Amel. It was delivered with electric toilets.

 

The solution I found was to hold down the red flush button for 10 seconds.

This puts just salt water in the hose and whatever came out of the toilet is now in the tank and

just salt water returns to the bowl. You might try pumping the toilet more to get just salt water in the hose.

I also originally had to change the toilet to tank hose every few years due to permeation of odor in the hose. Now with a 10 second flush I have not had to change the hose in over 10 years.

 

I have 2 problems with the electric toilet.

When the boats sits for a few days the salt water in the tubing has a sulfur dioxide odor for the first flush—very smelly. Possibly someone else has a better solution, for us I add Clorox to the sea chest with water and operate the toilet until I smell Clorox. I let this sit for 12 hours.  The water comes out black on the first flush and then no more smell for a while. I bought the fresh water flush valve and initially intended to use it for a fresh water flush. However I hate to waste fresh water , so I stayed with salt water.

 

The other problem is the weakness of the base of the toilet. I have had to replace the forward base twice. Probably because we make passages with three other people and it gets more use.

 

Any suggestions to solve these issues?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 8:28 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

 

 

I cannot address the electric head issue, as we have manual Jabsco’s. Our boat was right on the cusp of switching from manual to electric. 

That said, after having owned our fair ship for 8 years, I would like to solicit others’ experience. 

We have two standard manual Jabsco’s. Do other SM owners with manual heads also have Jabsco’s?

I ask that, because they have been such a huge problem for us. I know that heads are often at the top of the list for maintaining. 

However, ours have been particularly gruesome The positioning of the holding tanks nearly a meter above the bottom of the head means a constant battle to prevent black water (extreme euphemism) from flowing back into the bowl, at times filling it. In the dark, the ladies can be very rudely surprised. 

We have tried almost everything: changing joker (tricuspid) valves every month, purchasing the newer Jabsco “lock” handle mechanism, and finally putting an extra in-line valve between the head and the holding tank. 

It is quite a bit better, but gravity still sometimes wins. 

Are we alone? 

Appreciate any feedback from this invaluable forum (for non-native English speakers, invaluable doesn’t mean not valuable, but rather extremely valuable). Don’t ask me why, not sure. For example, inhospitable means “not hospitable”, but inflammable means “extremely flammable”. 

But I digress. Thanks again as always. 

 

Tom Peacock

SM 240Aletes

Rock Hall, Maryland

Departing for Antigua November 3

 


On Oct 11, 2017, at 7:52 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Ian and Margaret,

 

Like you, our SM has two factory installed manual heads.  We are happy with them and have no plans to change them.

 

My experience with the Jabsco electric heads is very limited, and pretty much all bad--in some cases really bad! My sample size is small, and they really can't be as bad my impressions...  but I wouldn't go that way.

 

For 15 years I lived on a boat that had a Sealand Vacuflush.  It was fantastic.  Reliable.  If flushed with a tiny, tiny bit of fresh water (really important with Amel's tiny, tiny holding tanks!) 

 

If I wanted to swap out to electric heads that would be the way I would go without a second thought.  Installation in an Amel would take a bit of thinking, but they have lots of configuration options.

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Back Creek, Annapolis, MD

---In amelyachtowners@..., <smlocalola@...> wrote :

Our SM has two manual heads, both Jabsco. We are looking at Installing Jabsco Quiet Flush Electric Heads. They seem to fit the SM head floor pan cut out nicely. Any opinions on number of electric heads? Two electric or one+manual? Other things we should consider?




Ian & Margaret

SM153

Loca Lola II 

New River, Fort Lauderdale, Florida


sandblasting...DON'T DO IT!

amelforme
 

Greetings everyone. I posted a lengthy dissertation on the hazards of employing sand as a blasting media to remove bottom coatings on January 17th 2017. I have even more supporting evidence today because of sales of more Super Maramu’s since I wrote that post.

 

Some additions to make…

 

Soda and cryogenic blasting are the best ways to go if you can find these methods.

 

As always, operator skill/experience levels play a role. While we don’t often find Rhodes Scholars at the business end of a blasting hose, there are some very professional companies that are doing these procedures, some of which have received certification enabling them to get bonds/insurance to work on structures like bridges and water towers. Shop around.

 

Not only did the Super Maramu and Santorin have Amel’s proprietary anti-osmotic treatment applied INSIDE/BEHIND the hull’s gel coat, all Amel’s from about 1985 had a similar type of anti-osmotic behind the gel coat.

 

As told to me at the time, there was a bad batch of MEKP, the catalyst for polyester resin, that was nearly all pervasive in the European area so boats from Benneteau’s to Baltics, Amels included , suffered extensive blistering from about 1983 forward as a result of this contaminated catalyst. The proprietary Amel anti osmosis treatment was done to address moisture getting into the laminates and reacting harshly with the contaminations in the laminates.

 

Have fun with your Amel and don’t sand blast it!

 

Joel  

 

Joel F. Potter/Cruising Yacht Specialist LLC

THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY

954 462 5869 office

954 812 2485 cell

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

James Alton
 

Bill,

   The better access via a hatch sounds like an interesting idea.  For venting, I have been considering adding a 3-4" diameter pc. Of fiberglass exhaust tube running from the top of the anchor locker to the deck line.  The tubing would be cut in half so that it would lay flat on the bulkhead and would be glassed over.  A hole would be cut through the interior bulkhead  and a low power muffin fan installed to push fresh air in.  The only current air exit would be the chain hole in the windlass so It would not be a lot of flow but compared to dead still air with no venting I am thinking it might help a lot.  Since the fan hole would be right at the very top of the side locker, I don't think the function of the watertight bulkhead would be compromised.  Pushing the air into the locker should keep the dampness and smells from the anchor locker out of the boat.  

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220


Sent from Samsung tablet.

-------- Original message --------
From: "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 10/12/17 16:31 (GMT+01:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 

Craig,


That's a great idea!  I wish it was that easy for me.  On my SM the aft bulkhead of the chain locker is the forward bulkhead of lockers in the forward cabin.  The only access into the chain locker is through those lockers.  Venting the chain locker would involve emptying that locker and leaving it open in.  

You have me thinking now....  a largeish deck hatch installed in the locker sole might add a lot of access to the chain locker without compromising watertight integrity of the chain locker...  

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sangaris@...> wrote :

I've clipped James' reply just to highlight the venting aspect. I had a louver made (mat ching the interior wood) for the forward bulkhead chain locker access panel. I keep in place instead of the solid panel unless making an offshore passage,  when I simply put switch it back to the solid panel.. 
Would suggest, when repairing the bow locker floor panels, that you include a lift out access panel in the middle so you can easily rinse out the chain locker periodically.
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  .....     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locke r partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful............ Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220



Re: Bow locker bottoms...

Derick Gates
 

Bill, 

Here are pictures of the port bow locker waterproof hatch installed in Brava which gives easy access to the chain locker.

Derick Gates
SM2K#400 Brava
Currently on the hard in Antigua


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

Craig Briggs
 

Hi Bill,
I didn't realize the SM's chain locker access panel was inside a cabinet, unlike the SN's which is exposed to the forward cabin right next to the bow thruster alcove. Wonder if you could vent the chain locker with a louver in the bow thruster alcove that you'd cover solidly offshore?

Interesting thought on using a deck hatch on the sole of the forward deck locker(s). I wonder how important, though, it is to keep the top deck locker area and bottom chain locker areas independently water tight. If the hull were broached down low, I suspect the added volume of water in the upper areas, were they both to flood, would not be significant - mine are already chock-a-block full of fenders, rodes, etc, such that I doubt I could squeeze in more than a pint :-).  Keeping them water tight, is, of course, more bullet-proof.
 
Cheers, Craig


---In amelyachtowners@..., <greatketch@...> wrote :

Craig,

That's a great idea!  I wish it was that easy for me.  On my SM the aft bulkhead of the chain locker is the forward bulkhead of lockers in the forward cabin.  The only access into the chain locker is through those lockers.  Venting the chain locker would involve emptying that locker and leaving it open in.  

You have me thinking now....  a largeish deck hatch installed in the locker sole might add a lot of access to the chain locker without compromising watertight integrity of the chain locker...  

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sangaris@...> wrote :

I've clipped James' reply just to highlight the venting aspect. I had a louver made (matching the interior wood) for the forward bulkhead chain locker access panel. I keep in place instead of the solid panel unless making an offshore passage,  when I simply put switch it back to the solid panel.. 
Would suggest, when repairing the bow locker floor panels, that you include a lift out access panel in the middle so you can easily rinse out the chain locker periodically.
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  .....     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locker partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful............ Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

James Alton
 

Bill,

   Okoume plywood is great stuff for interior work.  Light stiff and strong, I have used quite a lot of it over the years.  You might however want to search on Okoume and durability before you select it for a wet location like the anchor locker.  I believe that it is rated non-durable and I have unfortunately had to also remove quite a bit of it when rotten.  Regardless, if well sealed it could last for a long time.  The balsa core in our decks is rated as perishable but also can last a very long time when kept dry.  Best of luck with your repairs.

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220



Sent from Samsung tablet.

-------- Original message --------
From: "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 10/12/17 16:22 (GMT+01:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 

James,


Thanks for the advice. 

I have always used epoxy for repair projects.  It has better adhesion to most things and I have always felt a bit more "in control" with it.  I try to get each coat or layer added after the previous one has gelled, but before it has cured hard, to get the best bond between them.

For structural plywood I have usually used okoume plywood in the past, and it has done well for me.  I am a bit of a weight nazi on the boat, so a solid glass panel in the bow is not in my plans... but I am not so hard nosed about it that I feel I need to go with a foam core panel either.  Plywood seems the good compromise balancing weight/cost/ease of work.  I am comfortable that I can seal it well enough that it will last at least another 20 years!

Our anchor rode is all chain, so it doesn't carry a huge amount of water belo w, and I am pretty sure laying the chain out on deck to dry before stowing would cause more wear and tear on deck than I would save in the locker.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  The bottom of the panel forming the floor of the two side lockers was not glassed on the bottom of that boat.  The bottom of the same panel on my boat is glassed over and seems fine.  If you go back with plywood,  I would strongly suggest using a panel with a Loyds stamp to insure that the adhesive used passes the boiling water test to insure that you will not have delamination of the plies.  I would also select a wood species in the durable category to reduce the chance of rot.  The Sapele has held up pretty well for me.  Using epoxy resin will do a much better job of sealing the wood against moisture than polyester.  I have had good luck with the West System Epoxy which was developed for cold moulded boat construction and has been proven effective over decades of use.  Just be sure to remove the amine blush between coats or layers.  I am sure that there are other good epoxies out there, I just have not used many others.  If you start with epoxy, also use it to bond in the panels since polyester does not bond well to epoxy. You might also want to consider using a panel cored with a non cellulose based material or if you can stand the weight go with a solid glass panel.     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locker partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful. Wood is a good choice for the core as it is stiff for it's weight.  Wood will last essentially forever it you can just keep it dry.  Wood is used to form the internal structure of our boats so the same concerns about moisture apply.  The bilge area under the forward head is another area that I am very careful to keep perfectly dry since it is a very structurally important part of the hull.  Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220




Re: Bow locker bottoms...

Derick Gates
 

Bill,

While installing Brava's staysail setup, the previous owner also installed a waterproof hatch in the port forward deck locker, giving access to the chain locker.  It makes it easier to shop vac out the debris at the bottom of the chain locker after removing all the chain, and allows for easier inspection and maintenance of the forward sections than just using the starboard access hatch in the forward cabin.

Derick Gates
 
SM2K#400
Currently on the hard in Antigua


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

greatketch@...
 

Craig,

That's a great idea!  I wish it was that easy for me.  On my SM the aft bulkhead of the chain locker is the forward bulkhead of lockers in the forward cabin.  The only access into the chain locker is through those lockers.  Venting the chain locker would involve emptying that locker and leaving it open in.  

You have me thinking now....  a largeish deck hatch installed in the locker sole might add a lot of access to the chain locker without compromising watertight integrity of the chain locker...  

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sangaris@...> wrote :

I've clipped James' reply just to highlight the venting aspect. I had a louver made (matching the interior wood) for the forward bulkhead chain locker access panel. I keep in place instead of the solid panel unless making an offshore passage,  when I simply put switch it back to the solid panel.. 
Would suggest, when repairing the bow locker floor panels, that you include a lift out access panel in the middle so you can easily rinse out the chain locker periodically.
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  .....     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locker partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful............ Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

greatketch@...
 

James,

Thanks for the advice. 

I have always used epoxy for repair projects.  It has better adhesion to most things and I have always felt a bit more "in control" with it.  I try to get each coat or layer added after the previous one has gelled, but before it has cured hard, to get the best bond between them.

For structural plywood I have usually used okoume plywood in the past, and it has done well for me.  I am a bit of a weight nazi on the boat, so a solid glass panel in the bow is not in my plans... but I am not so hard nosed about it that I feel I need to go with a foam core panel either.  Plywood seems the good compromise balancing weight/cost/ease of work.  I am comfortable that I can seal it well enough that it will last at least another 20 years!

Our anchor rode is all chain, so it doesn't carry a huge amount of water below, and I am pretty sure laying the chain out on deck to dry before stowing would cause more wear and tear on deck than I would save in the locker.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  The bottom of the panel forming the floor of the two side lockers was not glassed on the bottom of that boat.  The bottom of the same panel on my boat is glassed over and seems fine.  If you go back with plywood,  I would strongly suggest using a panel with a Loyds stamp to insure that the adhesive used passes the boiling water test to insure that you will not have delamination of the plies.  I would also select a wood species in the durable category to reduce the chance of rot.  The Sapele has held up pretty well for me.  Using epoxy resin will do a much better job of sealing the wood against moisture than polyester.  I have had good luck with the West System Epoxy which was developed for cold moulded boat construction and has been proven effective over decades of use.  Just be sure to remove the amine blush between coats or layers.  I am sure that there are other good epoxies out there, I just have not used many others.  If you start with epoxy, also use it to bond in the panels since polyester does not bond well to epoxy. You might also want to consider using a panel cored with a non cellulose based material or if you can stand the weight go with a solid glass panel.     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locker partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful. Wood is a good choice for the core as it is stiff for it's weight.  Wood will last essentially forever it you can just keep it dry.  Wood is used to form the internal structure of our boats so the same concerns about moisture apply.  The bilge area under the forward head is another area that I am very careful to keep perfectly dry since it is a very structurally important part of the hull.  Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

greatketch@...
 

Hi Pat,

Thanks Pat!  That was pretty much my plan.  Use the existing fiberglass tabbing as my support shelf.  No need to remake the support structure!

Glass the bottom of the shelf before it goes in (when it is easy!) to avoid a repeat of the problem.

Set the wood just a bit back from the hull so it doesn't make a "hard spot".

A couple layers of glass on the top tabbed to the hull.

Add a drain hole, and done.

I might add two drains, outboard on each side so it drains better.  We get a fair amount of water accumulating in here from the anchor snubber, wet ballonnor, etc.

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sailw32@...> wrote :

Bill, I had the same problem a few years ago. I cut the floors out leaving about an inch of tabbing all the way around. Then cut another piece of plywood to fit , resting on the tabbing. I epoxied the bottom of the plywood first , then installed it and glassed it into place . I glassed the entire surface , rather than simply painting it. It was nice meeting you in Annapolis.
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Wed, Oct 11, 2017 11:59 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 
The plywood soles of Harmonie's bow lockers are seriously rotten.  I was kind of surprised to see that the bottoms of these plywood sheets (i.e., the top of the chain locker) were "naked", without fiberglass sheathing.  I suspect exposure to the constant damp of the chain locker for 20 years was the start of the problem.

Replacement seems to be a fairly straight forward, fiberglass project, but if anyone else has had this problem and has any hints or "gothcha's" to watch for, I'd love to hear them!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

James Alton
 

Dan,

  Odds are that any bare wood in the chain locker area will have at least some moisture in it which makes oil based coatings problematic.  If your desire is to try and prevent the wood from rotting a good choice might be a Borate based solution such as Timbor.  Timbor comes in a powder form which you mix with plain water, it has low toxicity to humans and almost no odour.  It also kills bugs albeit slowly.   There is another mixture that uses ethelyne glycol and Borate which is more effective but I don't like the smell of glycol and it is quite poisonous to humans and pets.  Linseed oil will turn black quickly in such a humid environment and I have serious doubts about it being a preservative.  Some of the older copper based preservatives were reasonably effective for a surface treatment but the penetration is poor.  The Borate on the other hand will over time will work it's way completely through the wood.   The best place to apply the solution is to the edge end grain of the plywood if you can get in there with a spray bottle or something.

  If you can find a way to keep the humidity down in the locker, it will certainly extend the life of the plywood with or without a treatment.

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220



Sent from Samsung tablet.

-------- Original message --------
From: "'dancarlson367@...' dancarlson367@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 10/12/17 15:12 (GMT+01:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 

Has anyone used linseed oil or other wood preservative to treat their exposed wood above the chain locker?  


I inspected my wood on BeBe, SM387, before leaving for the summer and have it on my list to apply something protective when I return.

Dan Carlson


 

Bill, I had the same problem a few years ago. I cut the floors out leaving about an inch of tabbing all the way around. Then cut another piece of plywood to fit , resting on the tabbing. I epoxied the bottom of the plywood first , then installed it and glassed it into place . I glassed the entire surface , rather than simply painting it. It was nice meeting you in Annapolis.

Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Wed, Oct 11, 2017 11:59 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 
The plywood soles of Harmonie's bow lockers are seriously rotten.  I was kind of surprised to see that the bottoms of these plywood sheets (i.e., the top of the chain locker) were "naked", without fiberglass sheathing.  I suspect exposure to the constant damp of the chain locker for 20 years was the start of the problem.

Replacement seems to be a fairly straight forward, fiberglass project, but if anyone else has had this problem and has any hints or "gothcha's" to watch for, I'd love to hear them!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

Dan Carlson
 

Has anyone used linseed oil or other wood preservative to treat their exposed wood above the chain locker?  

I inspected my wood on BeBe, SM387, before leaving for the summer and have it on my list to apply something protective when I return.

Dan Carlson


On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 7:16 AM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners]
wrote:
 

Bill, I had the same problem a few years ago. I cut the floors out leaving about an inch of tabbing all the way around. Then cut another piece of plywood to fit , resting on the tabbing. I epoxied the bottom of the plywood first , then installed it and glassed it into place . I glassed the entire surface , rather than simply painting it. It was nice meeting you in Annapolis.

Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners Sent: Wed, Oct 11, 2017 11:59 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 
The plywood soles of Harmonie's bow lockers are seriously rotten.  I was kind of surprised to see that the bottoms of these plywood sheets (i.e., the top of the chain locker) were "naked", without fiberglass sheathing.  I suspect exposure to the constant damp of the chain locker for 20 years was the start of the problem.

Replacement seems to be a fairly straight forward, fiberglass project, but if anyone else has had this problem and has any hints or "gothcha's" to watch for, I'd love to hear them!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Electric Heads

Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...>
 

I have an ancient SM and have kept the Amel original toilets... which are manpower driven.

These are RM69’s and have been trouble free for the last 3 years following a “maintenance” cycle.

They are still available as RM 69 toilets.

GL


Jena-Pierre Germain
SY Eleuthera, SM007


On 12 Oct 2017, at 08:18, Stephen Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I second the Lavac choice. We put a Lavac in the forward head almost 3 years ago, and have been full time liveaboards since that time. We have not had a single clog, and have done NO maintenance on the toilet since new. I've use many different brands of toilets in the other 6 boats I've  owned to include manual and electric, and nothing has come close to the reliability of this toilet. 

The head has a seal on the underside of the lid, and creates a vacuum as you pump. It has a very reliable Mk5 Henderson pump which I have mounted on the aft wall near the head to flush.  It is just a simple and bulletproof design with very little that can go wrong. They have an option for an electric motor to drive the Henderson pump, but I prefer the simplicity and reliability of the manual pump. 

Steve Davis
Aloha SM72
Santa Marta, Columbia

On Oct 12, 2017, at 6:17 AM, Steve cptbiffi@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

My hull is 1998, came to me with 2 manual heads. Changed the forward one with Jabsco electric toilet conversion 29200-0240 in 2012. Worked well, changed all the seals, standard jabsco kit, in June 2017. Only complaint is noisy by night. I never used sea water and no smelling at all 

Stefano
N'EVEREST Super Maramu 185
now  in Sarzana  Italy 

Il giorno 12 ott 2017, alle ore 09:34, Ian & Judy ianjudyjenkins@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> ha scritto:

 

Hi Ian and Margaret,


We have our original electric heads in service after 17 years.  Very little maintenance, certainly less than the manual ones we have used in the past. What is important is to flush for at least a count of ten each time--not for the benefit of the machine itself but to make sure that you always have clean water in the pipe leading up from the toilet.


Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Corfu


From: amelyachtowners@... <amelyachtowners@...> on behalf of smlocalola@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: 11 October 2017 22:20:32
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Electric Heads
 

Our SM has two manual heads, both Jabsco. We are looking at Installing Jabsco Quiet Flush Electric Heads. They seem to fit the SM head floor pan cut out nicely. Any opinions on number of electric heads? Two electric or one+manual? Other things we should consider?


Ian & Margaret

SM153

Loca Lola II 

New River, Fort Lauderdale, Florida






Re: Island Pearl II - 2001 - SM2000 #332 For sale

Steven Nieman
 

Hello,

Is your Amel still on the market?
If so can I mail you?

kindest Regards,

Steve Nieman


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Electric Heads

Stephen Davis
 

I second the Lavac choice. We put a Lavac in the forward head almost 3 years ago, and have been full time liveaboards since that time. We have not had a single clog, and have done NO maintenance on the toilet since new. I've use many different brands of toilets in the other 6 boats I've  owned to include manual and electric, and nothing has come close to the reliability of this toilet. 

The head has a seal on the underside of the lid, and creates a vacuum as you pump. It has a very reliable Mk5 Henderson pump which I have mounted on the aft wall near the head to flush.  It is just a simple and bulletproof design with very little that can go wrong. They have an option for an electric motor to drive the Henderson pump, but I prefer the simplicity and reliability of the manual pump. 

Steve Davis
Aloha SM72
Santa Marta, Columbia

On Oct 12, 2017, at 6:17 AM, Steve cptbiffi@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

My hull is 1998, came to me with 2 manual heads. Changed the forward one with Jabsco electric toilet conversion 29200-0240 in 2012. Worked well, changed all the seals, standard jabsco kit, in June 2017. Only complaint is noisy by night. I never used sea water and no smelling at all 

Stefano
N'EVEREST Super Maramu 185
now  in Sarzana  Italy 

Il giorno 12 ott 2017, alle ore 09:34, Ian & Judy ianjudyjenkins@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> ha scritto:

 

Hi Ian and Margaret,


We have our original electric heads in service after 17 years.  Very little maintenance, certainly less than the manual ones we have used in the past. What is important is to flush for at least a count of ten each time--not for the benefit of the machine itself but to make sure that you always have clean water in the pipe leading up from the toilet.


Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Corfu


From: amelyachtowners@... <amelyachtowners@...> on behalf of smlocalola@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: 11 October 2017 22:20:32
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Electric Heads
 

Our SM has two manual heads, both Jabsco. We are looking at Installing Jabsco Quiet Flush Electric Heads. They seem to fit the SM head floor pan cut out nicely. Any opinions on number of electric heads? Two electric or one+manual? Other things we should consider?


Ian & Margaret

SM153

Loca Lola II 

New River, Fort Lauderdale, Florida