Date   

Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

greatketch@...
 

All properly designed marine battery chargers and inverters will use an isolation transformer to do the voltage step up/down.  This keeps the DC Negative separate from the AC Neutral.

A connection between AC Neutral and DC Negative from poorly designed equipment is potential corrosion problem on an Amel, and a serious disaster waiting to happen on any boat. If it is connected to a shore power plug that has reverse polarity (Hot and Neutral swapped) the entire DC system is now charged with AC Power. I am not sure what would go wrong first, but it wouldn't be pretty! If you haven't come across a marina with wiring like this, keep traveling, you eventually will!

It is always good to have to think about these things carefully enough to write them out... 

Bill Kinney
SM160 Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas


Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

John Clark
 

Bill, I just opened up the genset and found she is wired as in column "C" with T2 and T3 connected to ground.  I traced the ground strap to the frame of the genset and the Amel bonding system.  So you were correct that the generator is connected to ground.  

Based on this, I still want to think about it more, but it seems that it might be ok to connect the inverter neutral to the bonding system.  I think I read that the raw inverter output is passed first though an isolation transformer before leaving the unit.  If this is the case then a DC leakage current is unlikely....

Thanks for the brain help Bill!


Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

John Clark
 

Yes I agree the thread was getting confusing.  I pasted the part I am focusing at the moment below:

 

Bill: When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator. 

 

John:  RIGHT AND NOW THAT YOU REMIND ME I NEED TO VERIFY THE CONDUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE AC NEUTRAL (BLUE) AND AMEL BONDING (GREEN/YELLOW) WHILE THE GENERTOR IS RUNNING.  WHEN OFF THE TRANSFER SWITCH REVERTS TO SP.  SO WHEN I CHECKED IT I WAS READING RESISTANCE OF THE SP CABLE  UNPLUGGED. 

 

Bill: It can be a little tough to measure by resistance, since you have to measure with the generator running, and small voltages can make the ohm-meter nuts. I checked voltage readings with the generator running between hot and neutral (220V) and between Hot and Safety Ground (220V) and then between Neutral and Safety Ground (~0V) which is what I'd expect.

 

John: This morning I fired up the generator and checked the voltages, here is what I got with no loads energized:

 

Hot(brown) to neutral(blue)  226VAC  as expected

Hot(brown) to ground(green/yellow)  113vAC

Neutral(blue) to ground(green/yellow) 113vAC

 

My interpretation is the generator is internally wired internally as split phase(115/230) but connected to the boat only at the two hots(L1&L2 yielding 230) as in column C of the drawing attached below.  As far as the question, is it grounded, we cannot tell from voltage readings because we are just seeing the voltage across the working generator field windings.   I will have to open up the generator control head to see exactly how it is wired. 

 

I am not inclined at this point to tinker with the internal connections as the genset has been in service like this without issues for ten years.    My receipts indicate the unit was installed in France where the 230/50hz power scheme should be well understood.   

 

More cogitating.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Any owner with a Rocna 40?

VLADIMIR SONSEV
 

I have Rocna 40. It works well.

SM 345
"LIFE IS GOOD"
Vladimir


On Jan 8, 2018 08:35, "Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Ditto here!

Great anchor
The S/S did fail us a couple of times. Hence the switch. 
Porter
54-152


On Jan 7, 2018, at 9:56 PM, Sailing Island Pearl colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi Alexandra
Although the nice big Amel factory supplied s/s CQR type anchor never ever failed us, we replaced that on Island Pearl II with the Rocna 40 (galvanised steel version) for 2 years now and love it. I now sleep well every night and have never yet dragged when many with us here have dragged many times in big storms. We keep the original anchor as a spare with chain and rope ready to deploy in front port side locker.
Regards
Colin
Amel53 #332, Phuket

On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 7:45 AM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


For those who own a Rocna 40, could you please contact me.
uster@...
uster "at" rocketmail "dot" com

Thanks in advance, sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Lost on September 6 during Hurricane Irma at
IGY Simpson Bay Marina, St Maarten, NA




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Any owner with a Rocna 40?

Porter McRoberts
 

Ditto here!
Great anchor
The S/S did fail us a couple of times. Hence the switch. 
Porter
54-152


On Jan 7, 2018, at 9:56 PM, Sailing Island Pearl colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Alexandra
Although the nice big Amel factory supplied s/s CQR type anchor never ever failed us, we replaced that on Island Pearl II with the Rocna 40 (galvanised steel version) for 2 years now and love it. I now sleep well every night and have never yet dragged when many with us here have dragged many times in big storms. We keep the original anchor as a spare with chain and rope ready to deploy in front port side locker.
Regards
Colin
Amel53 #332, Phuket

On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 7:45 AM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 


For those who own a Rocna 40, could you please contact me.
uster@...
uster "at" rocketmail "dot" com

Thanks in advance, sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Lost on September 6 during Hurricane Irma at
IGY Simpson Bay Marina, St Maarten, NA




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Amel decals replacement

Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...>
 

If I may add a word of caution…

Ensure the cuttings are done with TOP quality SS and that the cutting is done slowly to reduce heat production.  

Mine tend to rust quickly…. I polish them but…

Jean-Pierre
Eleuthera SM 007

On 7 Jan 2018, at 17:41, Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...> wrote:

Hello John,

Indeed my decals were replaced by SS panels.

Does look good I must admit.  :-)

Jean-Pierre Germain
SY Eleuthera, SM007
Panama



On 7 Jan 2018, at 16:28, john.biohead@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi Stephanie,

    I too need to do something with our decals.  I saw a picture of an 
SM that had replaced the side decals with polished stainless steel that looked terrific.  

I think it was SM007 Eluthera, JP's boat.  Now it is coming back, he had Emek in Turkey fabricate the panel.  I wonder if Emek has a template?  

JP, am I remembering right?

JOhn
SV Annie  SM37
St. Augustine.




Re: Amel decals replacement

Paul Osterberg
 

Stephanie 
We are interested in SS decals, so if you get a price let me know, maybe if we are a few you get a better price.

Paul on SY Kerpa SM 259, Spending the winte ashore in Lagos, Portugal 


Re: Amel decals replacement

Stephanie DiBelardino <stephiedib@...>
 

A stainless steel emblem sounds like a great idea! I will have to inquire here in Nettuno what the cost might be to cut and polish.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

Ahh Bill. That is the missing link for me. I was wondering how one gets around that specific problem with a powerful inverter/charger system like this which switches automatically. By the way we also installed the separate control unit which is up above the dishwasher next to the boat's usual AC control switches. Normally when charging and/or using ac power we have this switch switched on the the RHS "inverter" mode. 

Since installing the Victron Multi we have never used our old battery chargers, firstly since they are no longer needed other than backup, but also till I got my head around this specific loop problem you mentioned of inverter potentially powering the chargers!!
.
We will be in a marina again soon so will have an electrician take our two Dolphin battery chargers off the 2nd power output now.

Thanks again

Colin
SV Island Pearl II, Amel53 #332
Phuket. 

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 3:17 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I used the secondary output of the Victron for the second battery charger because it was the one thing that I would NEVER want be powered by the inverter pulling power from the batteries. 


For those of you who might not be familiar with the Victron setup, the Primary Output is powered by either lines power OR the inverter, while the secondary output is lines power ONLY and is shut down if lines power is not available, so it never feeds off the battery.

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas.


---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Bill

Thanks a ton for your explanations and diagram. A huge help to me and peace of mind that we have it done the same way as your system. Interesting that you sent your 2nd power out of the Victron to the 2nd charger. I had not though of that and did not use that 2nd power out feature yet.

On our previous boat, an Island Packet, we had the exact same 100% duplicated 110v and 230v systems running through a Heart2000 system 110v, and then the same Mastervolt 2000 inv-ch, so I understand how yours was done too.

All the very best to you in 2018, we intend to be in the Caribbean in 2019 Feb.

Best regards

Colin
Amel53 #332
Phuket till end Jan then Maldives till April.




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

greatketch@...
 

I used the secondary output of the Victron for the second battery charger because it was the one thing that I would NEVER want be powered by the inverter pulling power from the batteries. 

For those of you who might not be familiar with the Victron setup, the Primary Output is powered by either lines power OR the inverter, while the secondary output is lines power ONLY and is shut down if lines power is not available, so it never feeds off the battery.

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas.


---In amelyachtowners@..., <colin.d.streeter@...> wrote :

Bill

Thanks a ton for your explanations and diagram. A huge help to me and peace of mind that we have it done the same way as your system. Interesting that you sent your 2nd power out of the Victron to the 2nd charger. I had not though of that and did not use that 2nd power out feature yet.

On our previous boat, an Island Packet, we had the exact same 100% duplicated 110v and 230v systems running through a Heart2000 system 110v, and then the same Mastervolt 2000 inv-ch, so I understand how yours was done too.

All the very best to you in 2018, we intend to be in the Caribbean in 2019 Feb.

Best regards

Colin
Amel53 #332
Phuket till end Jan then Maldives till April.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

Bill

Thanks a ton for your explanations and diagram. A huge help to me and peace of mind that we have it done the same way as your system. Interesting that you sent your 2nd power out of the Victron to the 2nd charger. I had not though of that and did not use that 2nd power out feature yet.

On our previous boat, an Island Packet, we had the exact same 100% duplicated 110v and 230v systems running through a Heart2000 system 110v, and then the same Mastervolt 2000 inv-ch, so I understand how yours was done too.

All the very best to you in 2018, we intend to be in the Caribbean in 2019 Feb.

Best regards

Colin
Amel53 #332
Phuket till end Jan then Maldives till April.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 1:24 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 


This is a bit confusing...  but I added my second level comments in italics....


---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

AC Currents are (almost) never the source of stray current corrosion. To be sure, AC wiring CAN carry DC currents that can be serious sources of stray currents.  This is why AMEL separated the DC Negative from the AC Safety Ground and Bonding system.

RIGHT SO ANY FAULTS IN THE INVERTER, OR DOWNSTREAM EQUIMENT THAT RESUTS IN A DC VOLTAGE OVERLAID ON THE AC WIRING COULD AND WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO A STRAY CURRENT THROUGH THE BONDING SYSTEM...


As with many things with electrics and water... it's complicated.  If such a fault occured, it would show up as a voltage on the bonding system.  Amel's decision to avoid connecting the DC negative with the bonding system is not without its own problems. There is no free lunch...


A couple things about the AC Safety Ground.  It is normally connected to the AC Neutral only at the source of power. This is done so it can provide a low resistance path to carry any leakage current back to the source of power and safely away from people.

SO THE AC SAFETY GROUND ON THE SP CABLE IS CONNECTED TO THE AMEL BONDING SYSTEM. 


Yes.

 

When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator.  RIGHT AND NOW THAT YOU REMIND ME I NEED TO VERIFY THE CONDUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE AC NEUTRAL (BLUE) AND AMEL BONDING (GREEN/YELLOW) WHILE THE GENERTOR IS RUNNING.  WHEN OFF THE TRANSFER SWITCH REVERTS TO SP.  SO WHEN I CHECKED IT I WAS READING RESISTANCE OF THE SP CABLE  UNPLUGGED. 


It can be a little tough to measure by resistance, since you have to measure with the generator running, and small voltages can make the ohm-meter nuts. I checked voltage readings with the generator running between hot and neutral (220V) and between Hot and Safety Ground (220V) and then between Neutral and Safety Ground (~0V) which is what I'd expect.


Same with an inverter.  When it has an external source of power, it passes the AC Safety Ground on through.  When it turns on and becomes the "source of the power" it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral so any leakage from the Hot wire has a way to get back to the source of power without going through people.  RIGHT THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE DEVICE IS CONFIGURED, BUT IT HAS A DISCONNECT TO NOT CONNECT THE CHASSIS GROUND(SAFETY-GROUND/AMEL BONDING) TO THE NEUTRAL.   I WILL CHECK AGAN WHAT THE GENERATOR DOES WHEN ACTIVE.   

 

ONE THOUGHT I HAVE IT THAT THE GENERATOR IS NOT ACTIVE VERY MUCH HOWEVER, THE INVERTER WILL BE POWERED MOST OF THE TIME.  IS THE LENGTH OF TIME THE CONNECTION IS MADE A FACTOR TO CONSIDER?  


I don't see where the time would matter much, it's more a safety issue.


Without a connection back to the inverter when the inverter is the source of power, the AC Safety Ground becomes worse than useless.  If there was an insulation fault that connected the Hot wire to the case of, for example, your microwave, the AC Safety Ground would not be able to drain off that voltage because it could not supply a path for the current back to the source.  In that case the entire bonding system would become charged to the same voltage as the Hot wire with no way for the current to get back to the inverter. Now to put this in perspective, it is very unlikely on the boat that you could find a way to complete that circuit with your body...  but "very unlikely" is not the same as "not possible."

 

UNDERSTOOD.  ONE OF THE DOWNFALLS OF ISOLATING NOT CONNECTING IT.  ON US SUBMARINES WE HAD A SIMILAR SETUP FOR THREE PHASE AC WITH NO GROUND.  POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TO CREW BUT MORE RESILIENT TO DAMAGE AND ALLOWED CONTINUED OPERATION DOWNSTREAM.  NOT QUITE THE PURPOSE FOR OUR BOATS. 


It's a fuzzy situation where it stops being "safe".  A lot of small inverters have no Safety Ground connection at all.  The expectation being that there is no easy way for a human to put themselves in between the hot and neutral parts of the circuit.  A very different situation than grid power, where the Ground (literally, the earth you stand on) is the return circuit, so any contact with the hot wire is a serious problem.

 

I CERTAINLY INTEND TO THINK A BIT ON THE SET UP BEFORE IMPLEMENTING.  


I don't think what you propose is terribly dangerous, but on the other hand I think it would do nothing to prevent corrosion issues. So any safety loss comes with out a gain.




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

greatketch@...
 


This is a bit confusing...  but I added my second level comments in italics....


---In amelyachtowners@..., <john.biohead@...> wrote :

AC Currents are (almost) never the source of stray current corrosion. To be sure, AC wiring CAN carry DC currents that can be serious sources of stray currents.  This is why AMEL separated the DC Negative from the AC Safety Ground and Bonding system.

RIGHT SO ANY FAULTS IN THE INVERTER, OR DOWNSTREAM EQUIMENT THAT RESUTS IN A DC VOLTAGE OVERLAID ON THE AC WIRING COULD AND WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO A STRAY CURRENT THROUGH THE BONDING SYSTEM...


As with many things with electrics and water... it's complicated.  If such a fault occured, it would show up as a voltage on the bonding system.  Amel's decision to avoid connecting the DC negative with the bonding system is not without its own problems. There is no free lunch...


A couple things about the AC Safety Ground.  It is normally connected to the AC Neutral only at the source of power. This is done so it can provide a low resistance path to carry any leakage current back to the source of power and safely away from people.

SO THE AC SAFETY GROUND ON THE SP CABLE IS CONNECTED TO THE AMEL BONDING SYSTEM. 


Yes.

 

When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator.  RIGHT AND NOW THAT YOU REMIND ME I NEED TO VERIFY THE CONDUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE AC NEUTRAL (BLUE) AND AMEL BONDING (GREEN/YELLOW) WHILE THE GENERTOR IS RUNNING.  WHEN OFF THE TRANSFER SWITCH REVERTS TO SP.  SO WHEN I CHECKED IT I WAS READING RESISTANCE OF THE SP CABLE  UNPLUGGED. 


It can be a little tough to measure by resistance, since you have to measure with the generator running, and small voltages can make the ohm-meter nuts. I checked voltage readings with the generator running between hot and neutral (220V) and between Hot and Safety Ground (220V) and then between Neutral and Safety Ground (~0V) which is what I'd expect.


Same with an inverter.  When it has an external source of power, it passes the AC Safety Ground on through.  When it turns on and becomes the "source of the power" it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral so any leakage from the Hot wire has a way to get back to the source of power without going through people.  RIGHT THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE DEVICE IS CONFIGURED, BUT IT HAS A DISCONNECT TO NOT CONNECT THE CHASSIS GROUND(SAFETY-GROUND/AMEL BONDING) TO THE NEUTRAL.   I WILL CHECK AGAN WHAT THE GENERATOR DOES WHEN ACTIVE.   

 

ONE THOUGHT I HAVE IT THAT THE GENERATOR IS NOT ACTIVE VERY MUCH HOWEVER, THE INVERTER WILL BE POWERED MOST OF THE TIME.  IS THE LENGTH OF TIME THE CONNECTION IS MADE A FACTOR TO CONSIDER?  


I don't see where the time would matter much, it's more a safety issue.


Without a connection back to the inverter when the inverter is the source of power, the AC Safety Ground becomes worse than useless.  If there was an insulation fault that connected the Hot wire to the case of, for example, your microwave, the AC Safety Ground would not be able to drain off that voltage because it could not supply a path for the current back to the source.  In that case the entire bonding system would become charged to the same voltage as the Hot wire with no way for the current to get back to the inverter. Now to put this in perspective, it is very unlikely on the boat that you could find a way to complete that circuit with your body...  but "very unlikely" is not the same as "not possible."

 

UNDERSTOOD.  ONE OF THE DOWNFALLS OF ISOLATING NOT CONNECTING IT.  ON US SUBMARINES WE HAD A SIMILAR SETUP FOR THREE PHASE AC WITH NO GROUND.  POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TO CREW BUT MORE RESILIENT TO DAMAGE AND ALLOWED CONTINUED OPERATION DOWNSTREAM.  NOT QUITE THE PURPOSE FOR OUR BOATS. 


It's a fuzzy situation where it stops being "safe".  A lot of small inverters have no Safety Ground connection at all.  The expectation being that there is no easy way for a human to put themselves in between the hot and neutral parts of the circuit.  A very different situation than grid power, where the Ground (literally, the earth you stand on) is the return circuit, so any contact with the hot wire is a serious problem.

 

I CERTAINLY INTEND TO THINK A BIT ON THE SET UP BEFORE IMPLEMENTING.  


I don't think what you propose is terribly dangerous, but on the other hand I think it would do nothing to prevent corrosion issues. So any safety loss comes with out a gain.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Any owner with a Rocna 40?

Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

Hi Alexandra
Although the nice big Amel factory supplied s/s CQR type anchor never ever failed us, we replaced that on Island Pearl II with the Rocna 40 (galvanised steel version) for 2 years now and love it. I now sleep well every night and have never yet dragged when many with us here have dragged many times in big storms. We keep the original anchor as a spare with chain and rope ready to deploy in front port side locker.
Regards
Colin
Amel53 #332, Phuket

On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 7:45 AM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 


For those who own a Rocna 40, could you please contact me.
uster@...
uster "at" rocketmail "dot" com

Thanks in advance, sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Lost on September 6 during Hurricane Irma at
IGY Simpson Bay Marina, St Maarten, NA




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

John Clark
 

John,

 

If you are not sure about the status of the AC Safety Ground, you really should have a qualified electrician review your plans. What I write below is based on what I think is a good understanding of the matter, but I wouldn't want to risk your life on it...

UNDERSTOOD  ;)

 

AC Currents are (almost) never the source of stray current corrosion. To be sure, AC wiring CAN carry DC currents that can be serious sources of stray currents.  This is why AMEL separated the DC Negative from the AC Safety Ground and Bonding system.

RIGHT SO ANY FAULTS IN THE INVERTER, OR DOWNSTREAM EQUIMENT THAT RESUTS IN A DC VOLTAGE OVERLAID ON THE AC WIRING COULD AND WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO A STRAY CURRENT THROUGH THE BONDING SYSTEM...

 

A couple things about the AC Safety Ground.  It is normally connected to the AC Neutral only at the source of power. This is done so it can provide a low resistance path to carry any leakage current back to the source of power and safely away from people.

SO THE AC SAFETY GROUND ON THE SP CABLE IS CONNECTED TO THE AMEL BONDING SYSTEM. 

 

 

When your source of power is shore power the AC Safety Ground and the AC Neutral are connected only on shore, never on the boat.  A boat that has no isolation transformer, nor inverter, nor generator would never have the Neutral and Safety Ground connected together on the boat.  AGREED.

 

If your source of shore power comes into the boat through an isolation transformer, the transformer becomes the "source of power" and the AC Safety Ground and Neutral are connected together there.  

 

When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator.  RIGHT AND NOW THAT YOU REMIND ME I NEED TO VERIFY THE CONDUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE AC NEUTRAL (BLUE) AND AMEL BONDING (GREEN/YELLOW) WHILE THE GENERTOR IS RUNNING.  WHEN OFF THE TRANSFER SWITCH REVERTS TO SP.  SO WHEN I CHECKED IT I WAS READING RESISTANCE OF THE SP CABLE  UNPLUGGED. 

 

Same with an inverter.  When it has an external source of power, it passes the AC Safety Ground on through.  When it turns on and becomes the "source of the power" it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral so any leakage from the Hot wire has a way to get back to the source of power without going through people.  RIGHT THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE DEVICE IS CONFIGURED, BUT IT HAS A DISCONNECT TO NOT CONNECT THE CHASSIS GROUND(SAFETY-GROUND/AMEL BONDING) TO THE NEUTRAL.   I WILL CHECK AGAN WHAT THE GENERATOR DOES WHEN ACTIVE.   

 

ONE THOUGHT I HAVE IT THAT THE GENERATOR IS NOT ACTIVE VERY MUCH HOWEVER, THE INVERTER WILL BE POWERED MOST OF THE TIME.  IS THE LENGTH OF TIME THE CONNECTION IS MADE A FACTOR TO CONSIDER?  

 

The inverter case is connected to the AC Safety Ground in the event of a inadvertent connection between the Hot wire and the case so that voltage can be drawn off before it becomes dangerous to people.

 

 

Without a connection back to the inverter when the inverter is the source of power, the AC Safety Ground becomes worse than useless.  If there was an insulation fault that connected the Hot wire to the case of, for example, your microwave, the AC Safety Ground would not be able to drain off that voltage because it could not supply a path for the current back to the source.  In that case the entire bonding system would become charged to the same voltage as the Hot wire with no way for the current to get back to the inverter. Now to put this in perspective, it is very unlikely on the boat that you could find a way to complete that circuit with your body...  but "very unlikely" is not the same as "not possible."

 

UNDERSTOOD.  ONE OF THE DOWNFALLS OF ISOLATING NOT CONNECTING IT.  ON US SUBMARINES WE HAD A SIMILAR SETUP FOR THREE PHASE AC WITH NO GROUND.  POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TO CREW BUT MORE RESILIENT TO DAMAGE AND ALLOWED CONTINUED OPERATION DOWNSTREAM.  NOT QUITE THE PURPOSE FOR OUR BOATS. 

 

I CERTAINLY INTEND TO THINK A BIT ON THE SET UP BEFORE IMPLEMENTING.  


Re: Inverter Replacement

svperegrinus@yahoo.com
 

Duane,

Our Prosine was also installed by Lean Marine in 2013.  I guess we are fortunate ours is OK, despite some abuse.

Best of luck with the replacement!

Peregrinus
SM2K #350


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sailor63109@...> wrote :

We also installed the Xantrex Prosine 1800i.

It lasted one year and quit.  The error code was "contact the factory".  Xantrex replaced it promptly without waiting for the old one to come back, they just asked me to remove the serial number from it before we put it in the trash.  

So factory support was excellent, but I don't have much faith in it now.  It was installed by an electrician recommended by Joel Potter (Lean Marine in Ft. Lauderdale), so I don't think that was the issue.

Duane
Wanderer, SM#477


Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

greatketch@...
 

John,

If you are not sure about the status of the AC Safety Ground, you really should have a qualified electrician review your plans. What I write below is based on what I think is a good understanding of the matter, but I wouldn't want to risk your life on it...

AC Currents are (almost) never the source of stray current corrosion. To be sure, AC wiring CAN carry DC currents that can be serious sources of stray currents.  This is why AMEL separated the DC Negative from the AC Safety Ground and Bonding system.

A couple things about the AC Safety Ground.  It is normally connected to the AC Neutral only at the source of power. This is done so it can provide a low resistance path to carry any leakage current back to the source of power and safely away from people.

When your source of power is shore power the AC Safety Ground and the AC Neutral are connected only on shore, never on the boat.  A boat that has no isolation transformer, nor inverter, nor generator would never have the Neutral and Safety Ground connected together on the boat.

If your source of shore power comes into the boat through an isolation transformer, the transformer becomes the "source of power" and the AC Safety Ground and Neutral are connected together there.  

When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator.

Same with an inverter.  When it has an external source of power, it passes the AC Safety Ground on through.  When it turns on and becomes the "source of the power" it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral so any leakage from the Hot wire has a way to get back to the source of power without going through people.

The inverter case is connected to the AC Safety Ground in the event of a inadvertent connection between the Hot wire and the case so that voltage can be drawn off before it becomes dangerous to people.

Without a connection back to the inverter when the inverter is the source of power, the AC Safety Ground becomes worse than useless.  If there was an insulation fault that connected the Hot wire to the case of, for example, your microwave, the AC Safety Ground would not be able to drain off that voltage because it could not supply a path for the current back to the source.  In that case the entire bonding system would become charged to the same voltage as the Hot wire with no way for the current to get back to the inverter. Now to put this in perspective, it is very unlikely on the boat that you could find a way to complete that circuit with your body...  but "very unlikely" is not the same as "not possible."


Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Amel decals replacement

Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...>
 

Hello John,

Indeed my decals were replaced by SS panels.

Does look good I must admit.  :-)

Jean-Pierre Germain
SY Eleuthera, SM007
Panama



On 7 Jan 2018, at 16:28, john.biohead@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi Stephanie,

    I too need to do something with our decals.  I saw a picture of an 
SM that had replaced the side decals with polished stainless steel that looked terrific.  

I think it was SM007 Eluthera, JP's boat.  Now it is coming back, he had Emek in Turkey fabricate the panel.  I wonder if Emek has a template?  

JP, am I remembering right?

JOhn
SV Annie  SM37
St. Augustine.



Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

John Clark
 

Hi Bill,
   I plan to connect the chassis of the inverter to the Amel green/yellow bonding system. The inverter connects the AC neutral to the chassis ground when in inverter mode.  Would that not allow stray current through the Amel bonding system and therefore other water exposed metal?


When I examined the existing AC distribution system I found the Amel bonding to be isolated from the neutral(blue wires).  Is that how it is supposed to be?

John


Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

greatketch@...
 

John,

Popcorn can be important!

Your confirmation that the inverter does not cross-connect the DC negative and the AC safety ground is key. Such a cross connection would destroy the "floating" part of the Amel DC Floating Negative.

On the other hand, I am wondering why you feel the need to remove the connection between  AC Neutral and the AC Safety Ground at the inverter?

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas


---In amelyachtowners@..., <mfmcgovern@...> wrote :

John,

I do not see any attached wiring diagram and I did not see anything in the Photo section either.  However, that might just be me!  Check that you attached the wiring diagram be sure.

That said, it sure sounds like you are on the right track.  Popcorn underway sounds like a noble pursuit!

Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA...freezing our a$$es off...


Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

John Clark
 

Hi Mark,  Yes Yahoo is sometimes funny about the attachments.  Let's try again. Well it looks like it loaded but then gives an error message.  I will try to send to photos section after typing.  See photo called "
Magna Wiring"


 Also I posted the same pic on the Amel FB group.