Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rescueing method of casualty (Person Over Board)

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Bill, I'm puzzled by the two mizzen halyards you mention. I have one that hoists the mizzen sail, it is internal and its sheave is directly over the track in the furler sleeve, not another one there and don't see how there could be. I have never noticed another sheave there and from the deck couldn't see one. My mizzen is unmistakably an Amel mast. Was there a change sometime? There is an external halyard on a block the front of the mizzen for the mizzen staysail. I would never trust an external halyard for a person lift.

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl


On 03 April 2018 at 08:31 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Danny,

I agree completely, and, in my experience, this is not the first time the RYA has promoted something that is illogical and impractical. 

I thought this statement was unusual, "Thank you very much Bill Rouse for your confirmation about the strength of the halyards." 

In fact I did NOT confirm the strength of the halyards of any Super Maramu today. I explained how it was rigged when it was new, with the last Super Maramu being built in 2005 (13 years ago): "The (Super Maramu) mizzen mast was rigged with 2 each 10mm halyards (1 port and 1 stbd) each capable of lifting at least 1000 pounds." What I said does not mean that a 13 year old Super Maramu with unchanged original halyards has its original design capability today, nor does it mean that a 13 year old Super Maramu that has been changed by its owner has the original design and build capability. 

Any experienced sailor knows that things change with age. I am reminded every morning when I look in the mirror. 😀

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970





On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

 

Thanks Bill, well said.

Bluntly I say that the RYA horizontal lift advice is impractical, and worse, downright dangerous in an offshore situation. The idea of an amateur drew stumbling around trying to fix lines, putting extra crew overboard is frightening in its potential for disaster.. Inshore in sheltered water in particular situations (hypothermic victim and crew skilled in rescue) it may work. Off shore in a big seaway...don't even think about it. The danger with their advice is that it may encourage crew to try this. The most important advice is don't fall overboard. Overboard situations often occur when a crew member responding to an event on deck rushes out to do a quick fix unattached and bang they're gone. Two crew were killed on a big  yacht (think 65 feet) on the way to Fiji two years ago. The boom control lost hydraulic pressure. One crew rushed up to secure the boom, was hit on the head. Another crew rushed up unattached to help and was washed over board. He was never found. I have cast iron rule offshore. All crew harness on and clipped on whenever out of the cabin, day or night. That includes sitting in our nice safe centre cockpit. The reasons. 1) It establishes a clip on mentality. 2) Everyone in the cockpit has a harness on at all times and if something needs urgent attention on deck they're ready. Often a minor problem can turn bad rapidly and the time taken to find and put on a harness could result in a disaster. Pedantic? yes, unnecessary? No.

Another rule. No one leaves the cockpit without another crew there, or in calm conditions at least calling to the below deck crew that he/she is going out. The reality is that if you have enough tether to allow you to work, you have enough tether to fall overboard.Being dragged by your harness at 8 knots leaves you with a very short life expectancy.Think about it. 

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 03 April 2018 at 01:55 "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Phillipe,


I stand by my thinking that the horizontal lift is impractical recommendation for a shorthanded cruising boat.  For demonstrating in a class with 5 or 6 students and an instructor, that's a different story.  There are not very many places where I disagree with the smart and thoughtful people of the RYA, and this is the only one I can think of that is of real importance.

Any person at REAL risk of cardiac arrest in cold water will be totally unable to help with rigging anything themselves..  Putting another person in the water is VERY dangerous in and of itself, and would require a yacht crewed by at least 4 or, more likely, 5 people to justify the increased risks. As the captain of a b oat, I would be very, very reluctant to put a second crew member in the water.  I might do it...but only as a last possible resort.

If the person in the water is coordinated enough to rig their own horizontal lifting harness they are not yet hypothermic and do not need it.  Get them out of the water NOW before they do!

Rigging a leg lifting strap as shown in that video when you are in the water is a LOT harder if you are not in a full survival suit, with your legs floating at the surface. If you ARE in a full survival suit, you are (most likely) not hypothermic, and do not need it...

When we did our testing, I was in a wetsuit.  It was important for us to keep in mind that some things were much easier in a wetsuit because of the buoyancy, and others were more difficult.

Even for a victim who is fully conscious, if they are lifted horizontally they are now unable to usef ully fend off from the rolling hull themselves, and you need another crew member dedicated to that task.  A person lifted vertically, with a halyard (not a boom!) between hull and face will not hit the hull in a dangerous way short of extreme rolling conditions.

I do understand the rational for the RYA's suggestion, and I still think it is unrealistically complicated for use in the real world on a yacht with sailing with only 2 or 3 people.  The extra time required for it in most cases I believe INCREASES risks of all kinds to both victim and crew.

That's all I have to say on the matter, except for...  whatever you plan on doing, you should try it in warm calm water first. In the testing we did we found LOTS of suggestions including many that have been widely published were marginally practical--at best.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Moraine Cay, Abacos, B ahamas.








---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, <philipp.sollberger@...> wrote :

Dear Amel Yacht Owners,

Many thanks to all for your clear answers and experience.

For me it is still important to precise, that a horizontal lift up of an unconsious person from the water is better than a vertical one. The risk of a heart stop is bigger, if the warm blood circulates down to the extremities as legs and the cold flows back to heart. This can end in a cardiatic arrest.
The method to do a horizontal lift up is not so complicated as mentioned. I have learnt it at the UKSA in Cowes. Use the lifeline of the person in the water and put it under his or her bottom and clip it either to the lifesling hook or to the halyard directly.
Wi th big waves you have to protect the casualty that he or she is not bashing to the hull and for this reason you lower a crew member which is fixed to the yacht by lifeline and halyard. Afterwards you can lift them up both. The casualty in a horizontal way and the crew member vertically. With this method you have the most possible protecting method to get both back on deck..

The lifeline method you can test yourself very easily and with no risk. lie down on deck with your lifewest on and your lifeline. Take the halyard, fix it on the hook of the lifewest and take the lifeline, put it under the bottom through and take it and fix it to the halyard shakle or the lifewest hook. If all is fix, then lift up for half to one meter and you will get the proof, that you are hanging quite horizontally on the halyard.

Thank you very much Bill Rouse for your confirmation about the strength of the halyards.

Person over board is a subject, that nobody wants to happen. But unfortunately it happens on the rally round the world race as VOR and Clipper Race last time.

There are different videos on youtube which show, that you should lower a rescuer for getting the casualty fixed to the yacht.
Here is a link from RNLI Lifeboat UK with a demonstration of lifting up horizontally with the lifeline as second strope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1-Qb-6bBw&t=13s 
Here is the link to the latest person overboard during Clipper Race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufvGp3c7vuA 

Try to avoid such situations with being attached to the boat if you a leaving the central cockpit area in foul weather or night. Clip you on as early as possible.

Fai r winds and never an overboard case.

Philipp
Félicie, SM #124
 

 


 

 

 

 


 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rescueing method of casualty (Person Over Board)

 

Danny,

I agree completely, and, in my experience, this is not the first time the RYA has promoted something that is illogical and impractical. 

I thought this statement was unusual, "Thank you very much Bill Rouse for your confirmation about the strength of the halyards." 

In fact I did NOT confirm the strength of the halyards of any Super Maramu today. I explained how it was rigged when it was new, with the last Super Maramu being built in 2005 (13 years ago): "The (Super Maramu) mizzen mast was rigged with 2 each 10mm halyards (1 port and 1 stbd) each capable of lifting at least 1000 pounds." What I said does not mean that a 13 year old Super Maramu with unchanged original halyards has its original design capability today, nor does it mean that a 13 year old Super Maramu that has been changed by its owner has the original design and build capability. 

Any experienced sailor knows that things change with age. I am reminded every morning when I look in the mirror. 😀

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970





On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks Bill, well said.

Bluntly I say that the RYA horizontal lift advice is impractical, and worse, downright dangerous in an offshore situation. The idea of an amateur drew stumbling around trying to fix lines, putting extra crew overboard is frightening in its potential for disaster. Inshore in sheltered water in particular situations (hypothermic victim and crew skilled in rescue) it may work. Off shore in a big seaway...don't even think about it. The danger with their advice is that it may encourage crew to try this. The most important advice is don't fall overboard. Overboard situations often occur when a crew member responding to an event on deck rushes out to do a quick fix unattached and bang they're gone. Two crew were killed on a big  yacht (think 65 feet) on the way to Fiji two years ago. The boom control lost hydraulic pressure. One crew rushed up to secure the boom, was hit on the head. Another crew rushed up unattached to help and was washed over board. He was never found. I have cast iron rule offshore. All crew harness on and clipped on whenever out of the cabin, day or night. That includes sitting in our nice safe centre cockpit. The reasons. 1) It establishes a clip on mentality. 2) Everyone in the cockpit has a harness on at all times and if something needs urgent attention on deck they're ready. Often a minor problem can turn bad rapidly and the time taken to find and put on a harness could result in a disaster. Pedantic? yes, unnecessary? No.

Another rule. No one leaves the cockpit without another crew there, or in calm conditions at least calling to the below deck crew that he/she is going out. The reality is that if you have enough tether to allow you to work, you have enough tether to fall overboard.Being dragged by your harness at 8 knots leaves you with a very short life expectancy.Think about it. 

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 03 April 2018 at 01:55 "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Phillipe,


I stand by my thinking that the horizontal lift is impractical recommendation for a shorthanded cruising boat.  For demonstrating in a class with 5 or 6 students and an instructor, that's a different story.  There are not very many places where I disagree with the smart and thoughtful people of the RYA, and this is the only one I can think of that is of real importance.

Any person at REAL risk of cardiac arrest in cold water will be totally unable to help with rigging anything themselves.  Putting another person in the water is VERY dangerous in and of itself, and would require a yacht crewed by at least 4 or, more likely, 5 people to justify the increased risks. As the captain of a b oat, I would be very, very reluctant to put a second crew member in the water.  I might do it...but only as a last possible resort.

If the person in the water is coordinated enough to rig their own horizontal lifting harness they are not yet hypothermic and do not need it.  Get them out of the water NOW before they do!

Rigging a leg lifting strap as shown in that video when you are in the water is a LOT harder if you are not in a full survival suit, with your legs floating at the surface. If you ARE in a full survival suit, you are (most likely) not hypothermic, and do not need it...

When we did our testing, I was in a wetsuit.  It was important for us to keep in mind that some things were much easier in a wetsuit because of the buoyancy, and others were more difficult.

Even for a victim who is fully conscious, if they are lifted horizontally they are now unable to usef ully fend off from the rolling hull themselves, and you need another crew member dedicated to that task.  A person lifted vertically, with a halyard (not a boom!) between hull and face will not hit the hull in a dangerous way short of extreme rolling conditions.

I do understand the rational for the RYA's suggestion, and I still think it is unrealistically complicated for use in the real world on a yacht with sailing with only 2 or 3 people.  The extra time required for it in most cases I believe INCREASES risks of all kinds to both victim and crew.

That's all I have to say on the matter, except for...  whatever you plan on doing, you should try it in warm calm water first. In the testing we did we found LOTS of suggestions including many that have been widely published were marginally practical--at best.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Moraine Cay, Abacos, B ahamas.








---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Dear Amel Yacht Owners,

Many thanks to all for your clear answers and experience.

For me it is still important to precise, that a horizontal lift up of an unconsious person from the water is better than a vertical one. The risk of a heart stop is bigger, if the warm blood circulates down to the extremities as legs and the cold flows back to heart. This can end in a cardiatic arrest.
The method to do a horizontal lift up is not so complicated as mentioned. I have learnt it at the UKSA in Cowes. Use the lifeline of the person in the water and put it under his or her bottom and clip it either to the lifesling hook or to the halyard directly.
Wi th big waves you have to protect the casualty that he or she is not bashing to the hull and for this reason you lower a crew member which is fixed to the yacht by lifeline and halyard. Afterwards you can lift them up both. The casualty in a horizontal way and the crew member vertically. With this method you have the most possible protecting method to get both back on deck.

The lifeline method you can test yourself very easily and with no risk. lie down on deck with your lifewest on and your lifeline. Take the halyard, fix it on the hook of the lifewest and take the lifeline, put it under the bottom through and take it and fix it to the halyard shakle or the lifewest hook. If all is fix, then lift up for half to one meter and you will get the proof, that you are hanging quite horizontally on the halyard.

Thank you very much Bill Rouse for your confirmation about the strength of the halyards.

Person over board is a subject, that nobody wants to happen. But unfortunately it happens on the rally round the world race as VOR and Clipper Race last time.

There are different videos on youtube which show, that you should lower a rescuer for getting the casualty fixed to the yacht.
Here is a link from RNLI Lifeboat UK with a demonstration of lifting up horizontally with the lifeline as second strope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1-Qb-6bBw&t=13s 
Here is the link to the latest person overboard during Clipper Race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufvGp3c7vuA 

Try to avoid such situations with being attached to the boat if you a leaving the central cockpit area in foul weather or night. Clip you on as early as possible.

Fai r winds and never an overboard case.

Philipp
Félicie, SM #124
 

 


 



Oceanair Skyscreen

Duane Siegfri
 

I'm looking for anyone with experience with the Oceanair Skyscreen on the SuperMaramu?


As part of our vermin-proofing of Wanderer (see previous post on Rats!), we want to put a screen on the ports and hatches that will at least make intrusion detectable without a making a project out of it (I have too many d@!!! projects now!).  


The Oceanair Skyscreen for the overhead hatches (excluding the head) seems like a good choice.  If you did buy them:

- do you like them?

- did you attach them to the wood trim in the main and forward cabins, or did you remove these trim pieces so the Skyscreen flange was flat agains the headliner?


Does anyone have another suggestion for the overhead hatches?


Thanks,

Duane  


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rescueing method of casualty (Person Over Board)

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Thanks Bill, well said.

Bluntly I say that the RYA horizontal lift advice is impractical, and worse, downright dangerous in an offshore situation. The idea of an amateur drew stumbling around trying to fix lines, putting extra crew overboard is frightening in its potential for disaster. Inshore in sheltered water in particular situations (hypothermic victim and crew skilled in rescue) it may work. Off shore in a big seaway...don't even think about it. The danger with their advice is that it may encourage crew to try this. The most important advice is don't fall overboard. Overboard situations often occur when a crew member responding to an event on deck rushes out to do a quick fix unattached and bang they're gone. Two crew were killed on a big  yacht (think 65 feet) on the way to Fiji two years ago. The boom control lost hydraulic pressure. One crew rushed up to secure the boom, was hit on the head. Another crew rushed up unattached to help and was washed over board. He was never found. I have cast iron rule offshore. All crew harness on and clipped on whenever out of the cabin, day or night. That includes sitting in our nice safe centre cockpit. The reasons. 1) It establishes a clip on mentality. 2) Everyone in the cockpit has a harness on at all times and if something needs urgent attention on deck they're ready. Often a minor problem can turn bad rapidly and the time taken to find and put on a harness could result in a disaster. Pedantic? yes, unnecessary? No.

Another rule. No one leaves the cockpit without another crew there, or in calm conditions at least calling to the below deck crew that he/she is going out. The reality is that if you have enough tether to allow you to work, you have enough tether to fall overboard.Being dragged by your harness at 8 knots leaves you with a very short life expectancy.Think about it. 

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 03 April 2018 at 01:55 "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Phillipe,


I stand by my thinking that the horizontal lift is impractical recommendation for a shorthanded cruising boat.  For demonstrating in a class with 5 or 6 students and an instructor, that's a different story.  There are not very many places where I disagree with the smart and thoughtful people of the RYA, and this is the only one I can think of that is of real importance.

Any person at REAL risk of cardiac arrest in cold water will be totally unable to help with rigging anything themselves.  Putting another person in the water is VERY dangerous in and of itself, and would require a yacht crewed by at least 4 or, more likely, 5 people to justify the increased risks. As the captain of a boat, I would be very, very reluctant to put a second crew member in the water.  I might do it...but only as a last possible resort.

If the person in the water is coordinated enough to rig their own horizontal lifting harness they are not yet hypothermic and do not need it.  Get them out of the water NOW before they do!

Rigging a leg lifting strap as shown in that video when you are in the water is a LOT harder if you are not in a full survival suit, with your legs floating at the surface. If you ARE in a full survival suit, you are (most likely) not hypothermic, and do not need it...

When we did our testing, I was in a wetsuit.  It was important for us to keep in mind that some things were much easier in a wetsuit because of the buoyancy, and others were more difficult.

Even for a victim who is fully conscious, if they are lifted horizontally they are now unable to usefully fend off from the rolling hull themselves, and you need another crew member dedicated to that task.  A person lifted vertically, with a halyard (not a boom!) between hull and face will not hit the hull in a dangerous way short of extreme rolling conditions.

I do understand the rational for the RYA's suggestion, and I still think it is unrealistically complicated for use in the real world on a yacht with sailing with only 2 or 3 people.  The extra time required for it in most cases I believe INCREASES risks of all kinds to both victim and crew.

That's all I have to say on the matter, except for...  whatever you plan on doing, you should try it in warm calm water first. In the testing we did we found LOTS of suggestions including many that have been widely published were marginally practical--at best.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Moraine Cay, Abacos, Bahamas.








---In amelyachtowners@..., <philipp.sollberger@...> wrote :

Dear Amel Yacht Owners,

Many thanks to all for your clear answers and experience.

For me it is still important to precise, that a horizontal lift up of an unconsious person from the water is better than a vertical one. The risk of a heart stop is bigger, if the warm blood circulates down to the extremities as legs and the cold flows back to heart. This can end in a cardiatic arrest.
The method to do a horizontal lift up is not so complicated as mentioned. I have learnt it at the UKSA in Cowes. Use the lifeline of the person in the water and put it under his or her bottom and clip it either to the lifesling hook or to the halyard directly.
With big waves you have to protect the casualty that he or she is not bashing to the hull and for this reason you lower a crew member which is fixed to the yacht by lifeline and halyard. Afterwards you can lift them up both. The casualty in a horizontal way and the crew member vertically. With this method you have the most possible protecting method to get both back on deck.

The lifeline method you can test yourself very easily and with no risk. lie down on deck with your lifewest on and your lifeline. Take the halyard, fix it on the hook of the lifewest and take the lifeline, put it under the bottom through and take it and fix it to the halyard shakle or the lifewest hook. If all is fix, then lift up for half to one meter and you will get the proof, that you are hanging quite horizontally on the halyard.

Thank you very much Bill Rouse for your confirmation about the strength of the halyards.

Person over board is a subject, that nobody wants to happen. But unfortunately it happens on the rally round the world race as VOR and Clipper Race last time.

There are different videos on youtube which show, that you should lower a rescuer for getting the casualty fixed to the yacht.
Here is a link from RNLI Lifeboat UK with a demonstration of lifting up horizontally with the lifeline as second strope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1-Qb-6bBw&t=13s 
Here is the link to the latest person overboard during Clipper Race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufvGp3c7vuA 

Try to avoid such situations with being attached to the boat if you a leaving the central cockpit area in foul weather or night. Clip you on as early as possible.

Fair winds and never an overboard case.

Philipp
Félicie, SM #124
 

 


 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rescueing method of casualty (Person Over Board)

James Cromie
 

I would like to add to this discussion with respect strictly to medical management and considerations. 
The vast majority of you have far greater sailing experience than me, and I think this is an engaging discussion. 


In the case of severe hypothermia (below 30 C core temp), the primary risk of death is from cardiac dysrhythmia, and specifically ventricular fibrillation. 
The risk of this is particularly high when actively rewarming the patient from an even lower temperature through that critical range around 25 a 30 centigrade. 
Another risk of causing cardiac dysrhythmia is from excessive manipulation of the patient - that is, moving the patient. 

The idea that placing the patient vertically predisposes to dysrhythmia is not accurate. Indeed, placing a hypotensive patient in a head up position may cause loss of consciousness, but not cardiac arrest necessarily. 

The act of extricating a severely hypothermic patient from immersion - in any manner - may trigger a dysrhythmia. Position is not a primary concern. In fact, there is higher likelihood of addition trauma in a horizontal position. 

The fundamental principles, therefore, should still be performing the most expeditious method of extrication with the least amount of trauma or jostling, maintaining safety of the other crew, and immediate attempts at rewarming.  

For those who have experience, bretyllium given intravenously can possibly help control a possible dysrhythmia. However, this is no longer available in the US.  And only a physician should administer this. In that case,  prolonged CPR is your only option for salvage in the field. You do not stop until body temp is normalized or you meet exhaustion. 

As we say in medicine, “you’re not dead until you’re WARM and dead.” 


James
Soteria SM 347


On Apr 2, 2018, at 11:07 AM, 'Jean Boucharlat' jean.boucharlat@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Bill,

 

I must say that I support entirely your thinking.

In my case this is based upon a very limited experience (once only) retrieving a windsurfer who had drifted away in a squall and be separated from his board. The water was relatively warm, probably around 18° C, and the man had been drifting for 20 to 30 minutes. He was already starting to suffer from hypothermia and our only objective (3 on board) was to get him out of the water as soon as possible and down below to warm him up. Very fortunately we succeeded without even giving a thought to the lifting position.

 

Last year in its September issue, Yachting Monthly had a very informative article, based upon actual MOB retrieval exercises in calm waters. Their objective was to debunk various myths propagated by well intentioned souls. I am quoting here directly from this article:

 

Quote

MYTH 14: The MOB has to be lifted in the horizontal position..There is no increased risk of heart attack if the MOB is lifted vertically. ln most waters of the world, death from hypothermia occurs long before any dangerous peripheral vascular bed failure develops. The whole concept of peripheral vascular failure being caused by surface-type immersion is a myth. At the surface, it would take days to develop.

Unquote

 

My halfpenny worth,

 

Jean Boucharlat

Formerly SM 232

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: lundi 2 avril 2018 15:55
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rescueing method of casualty (Person Over Board)

 

 

Phillipe,

 

I stand by my thinking that the horizontal lift is impractical recommendation for a shorthanded cruising boat.  For demonstrating in a class with 5 or 6 students and an instructor, that's a different story.  There are not very many places where I disagree with the smart and thoughtful people of the RYA, and this is the only one I can think of that is of real importance.

 

Any person at REAL risk of cardiac arrest in cold water will be totally unable to help with rigging anything themselves.  Putting another person in the water is VERY dangerous in and of itself, and would require a yacht crewed by at least 4 or, more likely, 5 people to justify the increased risks. As the captain of a boat, I would be very, very reluctant to put a second crew member in the water.  I might do it...but only as a last possible resort.

 

If the person in the water is coordinated enough to rig their own horizontal lifting harness they are not yet hypothermic and do not need it.  Get them out of the water NOW before they do!

 

Rigging a leg lifting strap as shown in that video when you are in the water is a LOT harder if you are not in a full survival suit, with your legs floating at the surface. If you ARE in a full survival suit, you are (most likely) not hypothermic, and do not need it...

 

When we did our testing, I was in a wetsuit.  It was important for us to keep in mind that some things were much easier in a wetsuit because of the buoyancy, and others were more difficult.

 

Even for a victim who is fully conscious, if they are lifted horizontally they are now unable to usefully fend off from the rolling hull themselves, and you need another crew member dedicated to that task.  A person lifted vertically, with a halyard (not a boom!) between hull and face will not hit the hull in a dangerous way short of extreme rolling conditions.

 

I do understand the rational for the RYA's suggestion, and I still think it is unrealistically complicated for use in the real world on a yacht with sailing with only 2 or 3 people.  The extra time required for it in most cases I believe INCREASES risks of all kinds to both victim and crew.

 

That's all I have to say on the matter, except for...  whatever you plan on doing, you should try it in warm calm water first. In the testing we did we found LOTS of suggestions including many that have been widely published were marginally practical--at best.

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Moraine Cay, Abacos, Bahamas.

 

 

 

 

 

 



---In amelyachtowners@..., <philipp.sollberger@....> wrote :

Dear Amel Yacht Owners,

 

Many thanks to all for your clear answers and experience.

 

For me it is still important to precise, that a horizontal lift up of an unconsious person from the water is better than a vertical one. The risk of a heart stop is bigger, if the warm blood circulates down to the extremities as legs and the cold flows back to heart. This can end in a cardiatic arrest.

The method to do a horizontal lift up is not so complicated as mentioned. I have learnt it at the UKSA in Cowes. Use the lifeline of the person in the water and put it under his or her bottom and clip it either to the lifesling hook or to the halyard directly.

With big waves you have to protect the casualty that he or she is not bashing to the hull and for this reason you lower a crew member which is fixed to the yacht by lifeline and halyard. Afterwards you can lift them up both. The casualty in a horizontal way and the crew member vertically. With this method you have the most possible protecting method to get both back on deck.

 

The lifeline method you can test yourself very easily and with no risk. lie down on deck with your lifewest on and your lifeline. Take the halyard, fix it on the hook of the lifewest and take the lifeline, put it under the bottom through and take it and fix it to the halyard shakle or the lifewest hook. If all is fix, then lift up for half to one meter and you will get the proof, that you are hanging quite horizontally on the halyard.

 

Thank you very much Bill Rouse for your confirmation about the strength of the halyards.

 

Person over board is a subject, that nobody wants to happen. But unfortunately it happens on the rally round the world race as VOR and Clipper Race last time.

 

There are different videos on youtube which show, that you should lower a rescuer for getting the casualty fixed to the yacht.

Here is a link from RNLI Lifeboat UK with a demonstration of lifting up horizontally with the lifeline as second strope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1-Qb-6bBw&t=13s 

Here is the link to the latest person overboard during Clipper Race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufvGp3c7vuA 

 

Try to avoid such situations with being attached to the boat if you a leaving the central cockpit area in foul weather or night. Clip you on as early as possible.

 

Fair winds and never an overboard case.

 

Philipp

Félicie, SM #124

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] BOAT GRAPHICS - FLOTATION LINE COLOR

Denise McGovern
 

We have used http://doityourselflettering.com/ for our Amel and our previous boat.  The quality and service are fantastic.   The site has a design feature that is fun to play with even if you decide to go with a local shop.

Denise McGovern
SM 244


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Amel 50 review

danielmfrey63@...
 

I agree with this view.

In the past AMEL did not care about the main stream. They built the boats the way they thought they should be built.

And they had their own in house architect.

Now they have an architect who also works for Beneteau, Jeanneau, etc.  And the result is a main stream boat with with some AMEL groove.

Daniel, SY HEUREKA (SN 64, 1992, Kusadasi, Turkey)


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Amel 50 review

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Jean,

we are fortunate that we sail boats that are very well designed and built and so are still sound. We also have the commitment by Amel to continue to provide support and parts for their fleet, quite remarkable in this day, long may it continue. (I know there are occasions that some parts are no longer available) Lastly we have the Amel family of owners offering advice and support to each other through this forum . The ethos of this group including staying true to the Henri Amel design principals is important. However it would be nice if there were new Amel designs for the next generation of world sailors after we have swallowed the anchor. 

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 02 April 2018 at 20:52 "'Jean Boucharlat' jean.boucharlat@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Hello Danny,

 

I could not agree more with what you write.

For me also the 55 is beyond my needs and more than I can afford, as well as already somewhat engaged on that slippery  “non-Amel” slope (my opinion). Short of buying it, way beyond my means, if it were for sale, I don’t really see how we could influence the yard and make it change its policy.

I don’t believe in the power of petitions if they’re not backed up by hard cash. This means that if, enormous if, we could put together a group of say 10 people ready to order a modernized SM then we might have leverage. I don’t see this happening.

So…, I guess we’ve been cut adrift by the yard or, if you prefer, been left high and dry.. Very sad indeed.

 

All the best and keep enjoying and taking good care of your SM.

 

Jean Boucharlat

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: dimanche 1 avril 2018 21:47
To: 'Jean Boucharlat' jean.boucharlat@... [amelyachtowners]
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Amel 50 review

 

 

Hi Jean,
We visited the yard in July last year and they were preparing to launch the first 50. We were given a full tour of the boat (and the yard). In my opinion it is unquestionably not designed for a couple to sail round the world, for all the reasons you mention.
We asked the Amel people and the reply was that the target market was for Amel owners who love the brand but have done with off shore. It is a beautiful example of what I call a marina hopper. Luxurious accommodation. Huge saloon for entertainment. Luxury everywhere you look. No doubt it is a market that will meet many peoples desires. However I hope they keep building the 55 or the world will lose the best shorthanded ocean going brand available. Since I could never afford the 55 I would like them to remember the thousands of owners of ageing amels who would love an affordable (even pre owned) option. It has to be an ever lasting market. How about an updated SM or 54. However I guess the yard has assessed the market and that's where they think its going.
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On 1 Apr 2018 9:46 p.m., "'Jean Boucharlat' jean.boucharlat@orange..fr [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Dear All,

 

This is my take on the new Amel 50:

 

I am yet to read the article in Yachting World but would agree very much with everything Pip Hare is reported to have said. She is an extremely competent and courageous sailor but, unfortunately, she is not the right person to assess a cruising boat.

 

As to my credentials: over the years I have owned 4 boats, two of them bought new from Amel, a Maramu in October 1981 and a SM in July 1998. Both were the best boats I ever owned or sailed on and I am a great fan of the Amel philosophy. The basic tenet of this philosophy is that a boat should take good care of whoever is on board. This breaks down into two components, at sea, be safe and reasonably comfortable, at anchor, be comfortable and relatively easy to maintain and, in both situations be, as much as possible, not dependent on shore facilities.

 

Now, twice I went to La Rochelle to be given a tour of the new 50 and I came out saying to the yard management that I would not buy one. I agree that she is very well built, like all past Amels, and she is more “modern” in many respects than her predecessors, but, in reality, she is a luxurious Beneteau, good for extended week-end sailing but not much more. Why? Here are my gripes:

 

1) Rig: she is a singlesticker, not a good choice for any cruising boat over 45 feet.. One loses too much in terms of versatility of sail combinations. On top of it she has a self-tacking staysail. Ridiculous!

 

2) Cockpit: not one single locker in the cockpit, where the SM had 3. When at sea if one needs a rope, a shackle, a bucket, a block, anything, one has to fetch them from the lazarette. Unacceptable! Henri Amel was adamant that anyone could sail his boats without ever having to leave the safety of the cockpit.

 

3) Hull shape: in line with current architects thinking (could it be a fad?), the 50 has a very wide stern and two side rudders. No skegs, very exposed both to flotsam and to submerged lines particularly in Med style marina moorings. Also, maneuverability in reverse suffers considerably even with a bow-thruster.

 

4) Layout:

- Cabins: too many of them, on a 50 footer you don’t need 3 cabins and you certainly do not need two of them with centerline berths. Here again, Henri Amel considered that his boats should not be dormitories but should accommodate, on any tack, about 3 people sleeping plus one on watch. On the 50, at sea, only the rear cabin center berth can realistically be used. Do you want to have to sleep there with anyone else than your wife or girl friend?

- Saloon: wide and beautiful at anchor, wide and treacherous at sea. Not one single handhold to help you keep your balance.

- Kitchen: now located in the passageway to the rear cabin. This does away with the most comfortable berth at sea, puts the cook in a hot and stuffy area at a distance from the cockpit and makes for an athwart-ships drawer-fridge that will not open on port tack and will spill all of its contents on starboard tack.

- Sump: was unpleasant but relatively easy to access on Maramu’s and SM’s, became more awkward on the 54 and is well nigh impossible on the 50. Quite a few issues looming down there in the dark!

 

OK, so I am an old curmudgeon, but I loved my Amel’s, admired the yard and made friends with many terrific people there . Over the past 10 years, starting with the 55, sadly I have seen the yard drifting away from the principles established by Henri Amel. I consider this a terrible loss to the cruising community as I do not know of any other yard in the world building any boat coming close to the concept ant the quality of the Amel’s of the past.

 

Requiescat in pace,

 

Jean Boucharlat

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: samedi 31 mars 2018 13:45
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Amel 50 review

 

 

Hi All,

 

 There is a great review of the Amel 50 in April's Yachting World--she's on the front cover as well.

 

The reviewer is Pip Hare. We first met Pip in Piriapolis , Uruguay, where she had sailed two handed in The Shed,  an Oyster 37 which had seen better days. She decided to do the OSTAR, the single-handed transatlantic race, so she sailed back singlehanded from Uruguay to UK and set off on the race. Somewhere to the west of Ireland a lower shroud parted. Mast swaying,  she nursed the boat back to a bay on the south cost of Ireland where her father rowed out to her with a new stay. She wasn't allowed shore assistance beyond that ,so she had to rerig the boat herself .. She set off in pursuit of her class who by now had 2-3 days lead on her. She overhauled most of them.

 Pip went on to compete  successfully in those crazy 30 footers which the French love, on races like the Route du Rhum and is probably at her happiest single handed in mid-Atlantic up to her waist in cold sea water, in the dark,  in the cockpit having just broached while trying to maintain 17 knots when her competitors have eased back to 10.

 

 So, you might wonder what on earth she would make of the Amel 50.  It was December,  dark, wet and windy off La Rochelle. She confesses that did feel overdressed sitting in the cockpit in her salopettes and seaboots ( remember them ?) with warmth rising from the saloon together with the aroma of bread and fresh coffee...

 

 Her conclusion:  " I can't sit on the fence about the Amel 50; it's a brilliant boat.........I arrived with some heavy preconceptions, perhaps about as much as the kind of sailor I am as the kind of boat I would be sailing. I was treated to the full Amel experience.... but if you take away the fine food, endless expressos and crisp white bed linen, the Amel still shines. It sails well, it is beautifully built and it made me smile. I left surprised and ever so slightly in love "

 

 Praise indeed ! I think the La Rochelle yard is going to be very busy.

 

 Ian and Judy,

 Pen Azen, SM 302, Preveza, Greece

 

 


 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] BOAT GRAPHICS - FLOTATION LINE COLOR

Ryan Meador
 

I think the line on the SM is a color that straddles the line between red and orange, so it's a bit of a matter of opinion.  Though maybe mine has faded.

If you go with a vinyl boat name (I would), be sure you get "high performance" vinyl.  I used a local sign shop for the name on my previous boat, and it lasted about 4 years with regular, outdoor-rated vinyl.  I had the same shop make lettering for my dinghy, and they used high performance vinyl because it would be subject to inflating/deflating.  It's still going strong after 7 years, most of that spent in the weather on davits.  I've since received the same advice from a family friend who runs a (different) sign shop -- the high performance stuff should last about 10 years, and isn't much more expensive.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I thought the original waterline color on all Maramus was Orange???

Best,



On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 3:42 PM, alex.paquin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello,

Again, in reference to the hull´s refurbishing project, I´d like to hear your thoughts on the following:


1. Should we paint the waterline with the traditional/original red stripe? we are going to use gelcoat to apply it. Should we consider any other color?


2 Boat name on the transom: until now I have used the original Amel plaque used in the 80´s for the boat´s name and port of registration, should we migrate to other type of system? Decals? Printed graphics? Who is a good supplier in the USA.


3. By law in Venezuela the boat´s name and registration number must be on the bow, both starboard and port.


Alex Paquin

s/v SIMPATICO

Older Maramu hull #94, 1981




--



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] BOAT GRAPHICS - FLOTATION LINE COLOR

 

I thought the original waterline color on all Maramus was Orange???

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970


On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 3:42 PM, alex.paquin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hello,

Again, in reference to the hull´s refurbishing project, I´d like to hear your thoughts on the following:


1. Should we paint the waterline with the traditional/original red stripe? we are going to use gelcoat to apply it. Should we consider any other color?


2 Boat name on the transom: until now I have used the original Amel plaque used in the 80´s for the boat´s name and port of registration, should we migrate to other type of system? Decals? Printed graphics? Who is a good supplier in the USA.


3. By law in Venezuela the boat´s name and registration number must be on the bow, both starboard and port.


Alex Paquin

s/v SIMPATICO

Older Maramu hull #94, 1981




--


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Shield Wire in NMEA 2000 Backbone

Ryan Meador
 

Hi Duane,
Generally, if a cable has a shield, it should be grounded.  But you should only have a single connection to ground on the shield for the entire network, generally where the power supply tap is.  I'd imagine the power supply cable has a shield primarily to provide a path for grounding the shields of the rest of the network, not so much for its own use.  Power cables are much less sensitive to noise than data cables (oversimplified, but I think accurate here).  It is common to shield the power conductors and data conductors separately, or even not shield the power conductors at all.  

Does the field connector have a terminal for the shield?  The ones I just saw in some quick Googling do.  If it does, you want to use that instead of grounding it at the connector.  It will provide a connection through to the shield of whatever you plug it into, and thus (eventually) to ground at your power tap.

That thing with the switch is concerning.  Either the bulb was not rated for 24V, in which case the person you spoke to at Paneltronics gave you bad info, or you've got some kind of crossed connection between then 12V and 24V circuits.  The fact that it blew up when you turned it off makes the suspect the latter (unless it's the kind where the light is on when the switch is off??).  Are you certain you've kept the power feeds separate, and there aren't any connections inside the switch panel?  It's also not unheard-of for the switch to have a higher rating than the bulb, but they should have warned you if that's the case...

Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 1:34 PM, sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

One other interesting thing happened.  I installed a Paneltronics 6 switch panel where the B&G Hydra FFD was above the nav desk to switch the VHF and NMEA 2K backbone (both 12V),  as well as the Helm B&G MFD/Radar, the MFD at the Nav Desk, the Furuno Fax 30, and the AIS.  


I called Paneltronics and asked about using their 12V panel and they said it would be fine, the contacts were rated for 15A at 24V.

After wiring it up (two different power feeds, one for 12V, and one for 24v) it worked fine, except for the PUFF OF SMOKE when I switched it off.  It turns out they didn't use an LED for the indicator light, they used an incandescent bulb.  At 24 volts the bulb was hitting temps that warmed the rocker up to 160 degrees.  I'm waiting to hear from Paneltronics if there is another bulb, or another switch.

The bulb is easily removed by disassembling the switch.  It is direct wired into the bulb, I don't know how you would ever replace it.  They guy at tech services didn't know and couldn't find anything about replacements.

Duane



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Introduction and Finding Furling Motor Parts (Amel 54)

 

Scott,

Welcome to the Group.

Bamar Contact:
Caterina Cammaroto [mailto:caterina"at"bamar.it

Other items needed:
Mainsail furling motor: replace carbon brushes, replace key on drive shaft - Amel SAV
Mainsail manual furling gear box: replace lip-seal  - Amel SAV
Staysail furler: replace belt and its driving gears Bamar - Caterina Cammaroto [mailto:caterina"at"bamar.it

Email me directly if you have other questions bill"at"AmelSchool.com.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970


On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 7:12 AM, cpp_berkeley <no_reply@...> wrote:
 

Hi everyone, 


I am the new owner of Tengah, an Amel 54 ( 2007 Hull#69) and wanted to introduce myself to the group. The camaraderie I've seen in this group is one of the reasons I went with an Amel!


Right now, she is near Gibraltar and we're moving aboard this week! The boatyard has been working on her for about a month now and we intend to spend about a month aboard before setting off with a delivery skipper towards Greece with the intent of cruising the Med for at least the next 5 months with the goal of doing a circumnavigation over the next few years. Needless to say we're pretty excited.


Right now we're going through Olivier's survey recommendations and the boatyard is having a bit of trouble locating certain parts. Here are the recommended repairs that we're having trouble locating the parts for:


Mainsail furling motor: replace carbon brushes, r eplace key on drive shaft

Mainsail manual furling gear box: replace lip-seal

Staysail furler: replace belt and its driving gears


Amel stated that they don't carry these parts in stock, either. Anyone with any tips on how to find these parts? 


Thanks!


-Scott

SV Tengah

Amel 54, #69




--


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Alternator replacement

 

Rink,

This is what you need:
Leece-Neville 175 amp voltage alternator Model no. 8SC3009ZA Regulator Model 8RL3021 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, Rink de Haan rinkdehaan@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

The 24V alternator on my Yanmar 4JH3TE engine (2001) needs replacement. I can't decipher the model and make of it.
Does anyone recently replaced it and /or have a recommendation for this?
I am currently in Greece (Lefkada) and the local repair shop is struggling with it.

Many thanks
Rink de Haan
SY Razor's Edge
Amel SM2K #330





Re: Shield Wire in NMEA 2000 Backbone

Duane Siegfri
 

One other interesting thing happened.  I installed a Paneltronics 6 switch panel where the B&G Hydra FFD was above the nav desk to switch the VHF and NMEA 2K backbone (both 12V),  as well as the Helm B&G MFD/Radar, the MFD at the Nav Desk, the Furuno Fax 30, and the AIS.  

I called Paneltronics and asked about using their 12V panel and they said it would be fine, the contacts were rated for 15A at 24V.

After wiring it up (two different power feeds, one for 12V, and one for 24v) it worked fine, except for the PUFF OF SMOKE when I switched it off.  It turns out they didn't use an LED for the indicator light, they used an incandescent bulb.  At 24 volts the bulb was hitting temps that warmed the rocker up to 160 degrees.  I'm waiting to hear from Paneltronics if there is another bulb, or another switch.

The bulb is easily removed by disassembling the switch.  It is direct wired into the bulb, I don't know how you would ever replace it.  They guy at tech services didn't know and couldn't find anything about replacements.

Duane


Re: Shield Wire in NMEA 2000 Backbone

Duane Siegfri
 

Ryan,

For the most part I used premade backbone chords, but will have to use a field connector for the backbone run up the mast.  It feeds down from the top and a field connection is required inside. 

I was asking about the shield wire from the power tap where I tie it to house 12V.

Thanks for your reply,
Duane


Re: Shield Wire in NMEA 2000 Backbone

Duane Siegfri
 

Thanks for the information.  I'll ground the power tap for the N2K to the battery negative.

I also noticed while taking the old wiring out, there were some shielded cables, and some unshielded cables, usually for power supplies.  Those were never grounded and I wondered what the point was of using shielded cables without grounding them.  

The new wire I bought for power cabling is shielded, should it be grounded as well?  

Thanks,
Duane
Wanderer, SM#477


Re: BOAT GRAPHICS - FLOTATION LINE COLOR

Ian Park
 

I did a “brass rubbing” of the Amel logo on the sides of the cockpit to get the size. I took photos to get the colour and went to a vehicle sign writer. They used computer graphics to size everything. It was around £40 for the logos! Two boat names for the main boom and new stern name and port of registration. They were vinyl stick on and are lasting well. Plus no ‘marine’ prices.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN96


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Shield Wire in NMEA 2000 Backbone

Ryan Meador
 

You definitely want to ground the shield.  It will not be very effective without it.  As long as the connection to ground is low-impedance, it will not convey noise to other systems.  Also, on an Amel, the NMEA2000 bus is powered via a 24VDC-12VDC converter, which should provide isolation from noise crossing between the 12V and 24V systems.

Duane, why do you have a shield wire that you're trying to find a home for?  Are you splicing wires manually on the backbone, or are you talking about your power supply connection?  I believe all NMEA2000 connectors are fully shielded, which means the shield extends across the connection.  This is necessary for maximum noise immunity.  If you splice the wires manually, you're unlikely to be able to fully cover it, so use purpose-built connectors (and adapters for some manufacturer's proprietary connectors).  The place where power is injected into the system will have a provision for grounding the shield, and it's the only place where you should need to worry about this; it can simply be connected to the negative conductor.

Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 10:39 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Maretron recommends connecting the shield to ground, just be sure you do it only ONCE to avoid ground loop currents.  Although I can't imagine an Amel would have a  NMEA2k network so complex it would need to have multiple power insertion points.


It is also buried here in the slides from an official NMEA installer presentation:

I connected my NMEA2k SHIELD to the 12V power supply ground exactly as shown in the slide in the NMEA presentation.  It works.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Moraine Cay, Abacos, Bahamas




Re: Rescueing method of casualty (Person Over Board)

Ian Park
 

Just my thoughts on the subject....
I can agree with everything that’s been said about fully crewed yachts and big racing yachts dealing with foredeck casualties going overboard and their subsequent rescues.
Sailing as a couple just negates the use of the systems mentioned.
We have a Jon Bouy. If one of us were to go over that goes over first Then the MOB button. Because you sit inside the Jon Bouy you are protected from the hull. The inflated mast of the buoy also has the lifting ring at easy reach deck height.

Other what ifs are minimal. We don’t go on deck in tough conditions unless absolutely vital (that’s why we bought an Amel). Plus with a couple it’s likely that it’s me out their and Linda trying to get me back in! We both have full body harnesses that we can wear under a life jacket. A life jacket is not designed to lift someone (or to be dragged alongside a boat on a tether - at least two people in UK have died as a result.
The crutch straps on a life jacket are designed to stop it riding up in the water. Just try attaching a life jacket to a halliard and have yourself hoisted a couple of feet off the deck and see how long it is till the blood flow stops you using your arms.

I’d be interested in other Amel owners experiences of MOB incidents or any times they have needed to go outside the cockpit.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN 96 Antigua


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rescueing method of casualty (Person Over Board)

Jean Boucharlat
 

Bill,

 

I must say that I support entirely your thinking.

In my case this is based upon a very limited experience (once only) retrieving a windsurfer who had drifted away in a squall and be separated from his board. The water was relatively warm, probably around 18° C, and the man had been drifting for 20 to 30 minutes. He was already starting to suffer from hypothermia and our only objective (3 on board) was to get him out of the water as soon as possible and down below to warm him up. Very fortunately we succeeded without even giving a thought to the lifting position.

 

Last year in its September issue, Yachting Monthly had a very informative article, based upon actual MOB retrieval exercises in calm waters. Their objective was to debunk various myths propagated by well intentioned souls. I am quoting here directly from this article:

 

Quote

MYTH 14: The MOB has to be lifted in the horizontal position.There is no increased risk of heart attack if the MOB is lifted vertically. ln most waters of the world, death from hypothermia occurs long before any dangerous peripheral vascular bed failure develops. The whole concept of peripheral vascular failure being caused by surface-type immersion is a myth. At the surface, it would take days to develop.

Unquote

 

My halfpenny worth,

 

Jean Boucharlat

Formerly SM 232

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: lundi 2 avril 2018 15:55
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rescueing method of casualty (Person Over Board)

 

 

Phillipe,

 

I stand by my thinking that the horizontal lift is impractical recommendation for a shorthanded cruising boat.  For demonstrating in a class with 5 or 6 students and an instructor, that's a different story.  There are not very many places where I disagree with the smart and thoughtful people of the RYA, and this is the only one I can think of that is of real importance.

 

Any person at REAL risk of cardiac arrest in cold water will be totally unable to help with rigging anything themselves.  Putting another person in the water is VERY dangerous in and of itself, and would require a yacht crewed by at least 4 or, more likely, 5 people to justify the increased risks. As the captain of a boat, I would be very, very reluctant to put a second crew member in the water.  I might do it...but only as a last possible resort.

 

If the person in the water is coordinated enough to rig their own horizontal lifting harness they are not yet hypothermic and do not need it.  Get them out of the water NOW before they do!

 

Rigging a leg lifting strap as shown in that video when you are in the water is a LOT harder if you are not in a full survival suit, with your legs floating at the surface. If you ARE in a full survival suit, you are (most likely) not hypothermic, and do not need it...

 

When we did our testing, I was in a wetsuit.  It was important for us to keep in mind that some things were much easier in a wetsuit because of the buoyancy, and others were more difficult.

 

Even for a victim who is fully conscious, if they are lifted horizontally they are now unable to usefully fend off from the rolling hull themselves, and you need another crew member dedicated to that task.  A person lifted vertically, with a halyard (not a boom!) between hull and face will not hit the hull in a dangerous way short of extreme rolling conditions.

 

I do understand the rational for the RYA's suggestion, and I still think it is unrealistically complicated for use in the real world on a yacht with sailing with only 2 or 3 people.  The extra time required for it in most cases I believe INCREASES risks of all kinds to both victim and crew.

 

That's all I have to say on the matter, except for...  whatever you plan on doing, you should try it in warm calm water first. In the testing we did we found LOTS of suggestions including many that have been widely published were marginally practical--at best.

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Moraine Cay, Abacos, Bahamas.

 

 

 

 

 

 



---In amelyachtowners@..., <philipp.sollberger@...> wrote :

Dear Amel Yacht Owners,

 

Many thanks to all for your clear answers and experience.

 

For me it is still important to precise, that a horizontal lift up of an unconsious person from the water is better than a vertical one. The risk of a heart stop is bigger, if the warm blood circulates down to the extremities as legs and the cold flows back to heart. This can end in a cardiatic arrest.

The method to do a horizontal lift up is not so complicated as mentioned. I have learnt it at the UKSA in Cowes. Use the lifeline of the person in the water and put it under his or her bottom and clip it either to the lifesling hook or to the halyard directly.

With big waves you have to protect the casualty that he or she is not bashing to the hull and for this reason you lower a crew member which is fixed to the yacht by lifeline and halyard. Afterwards you can lift them up both. The casualty in a horizontal way and the crew member vertically. With this method you have the most possible protecting method to get both back on deck.

 

The lifeline method you can test yourself very easily and with no risk. lie down on deck with your lifewest on and your lifeline. Take the halyard, fix it on the hook of the lifewest and take the lifeline, put it under the bottom through and take it and fix it to the halyard shakle or the lifewest hook. If all is fix, then lift up for half to one meter and you will get the proof, that you are hanging quite horizontally on the halyard.

 

Thank you very much Bill Rouse for your confirmation about the strength of the halyards.

 

Person over board is a subject, that nobody wants to happen. But unfortunately it happens on the rally round the world race as VOR and Clipper Race last time.

 

There are different videos on youtube which show, that you should lower a rescuer for getting the casualty fixed to the yacht.

Here is a link from RNLI Lifeboat UK with a demonstration of lifting up horizontally with the lifeline as second strope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1-Qb-6bBw&t=13s 

Here is the link to the latest person overboard during Clipper Race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufvGp3c7vuA 

 

Try to avoid such situations with being attached to the boat if you a leaving the central cockpit area in foul weather or night. Clip you on as early as possible.

 

Fair winds and never an overboard case.

 

Philipp

Félicie, SM #124