Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Since we are talking about seals...

ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Hi Bill,

 What a great review. Where were you 20 years ago when  none other the Amel mechanic in la Rochelle taught me that the way to get a seal out was  with a screwdriver, a process that I have always performed with the utmost delicacy and my heart in my mouth  ? I have  now ordered your gadget !

Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302 Greece


From: amelyachtowners@... on behalf of greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]
Sent: 15 January 2019 21:13
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Since we are talking about seals...
 


Some time ago I had started to write up a short article on the lip seals that we have to deal with as Amel owners, but it quickly became longer than planned... and I had put it aside while other things pressed.


Since we have recently been talking about lip seals both in general and in specific cases, I sat down and brought it up to the point where it is ready for public consumption.


https://fetchinketch.net/boat-projects/lipseals/


Hopefully, you find it worth what you paid for it!  :-D


Corrections, and questions always welcome.


Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Spanish Wells, Bahamas




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Main Sail Furling Motor Issue

Porter McRoberts
 

Thank you Duane! I’ll have a good read,  quite appreciated 
Porter 


On Jan 15, 2019, at 10:02 AM, sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter, 


I didn't do a write up on the motor gearboxes, just the manual gearbox.  You can find that here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/amelyachtowners/search/photos?query=gearbox#zax/albums_449168476.


Note that the second link has the bearings used, but I didn't see the oil seals listed.

Duane
Wanderer, SM#477


Re: Engine blower fan

Miles
 

Re: Julie
You and Glen have much to contribute . I remember adding a wind generator to my mizzenmast with your help almost 20 years ago (is that really possible ?) and I know about the emergency fixes you did on you circumnavigation. I am delighted to be in touch with you again .

Regards,
Miles
S/y Ladybug sm 216 , Le Marin, Martinique


New file uploaded to amelyachtowners

amelyachtowners@...
 

Hello,

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Uploaded by : mariner62@ymail.com <trifin@soundthinking.com.au>
Description :

You can access this file at the URL:
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SSB Antenna Deliberations

Dean Gillies
 

Hi All,

While I am away from the boat, I am working through the design of the new SSB installation for Stella, our 54.


One of the design area where I still find myself fence-sitting is in the choice of either a Whip or Backstay Antenna.  I prefer the simplicity, aesthetic and ruggedness of the backstay antenna, but I dislike the awkward antenna feed-in solutions.


For safety, the lower backstay insulator needs to be above easy reach height, say 2m off the deck. This means that the antenna feed cable needs to be offset from the lower section of the backstay, and also kept away from the stern rail, davits and solar arch. This offset is often a rather ugly and awkward arrangement.


To try and clean this up, I am contemplating the use of something like Dyneema on the lower section of the starboard backstay.  This would enable the antenna feed cable to be fixed neatly to the dyneema part of the backstay, ensuring it stays in-place and out of harms way.  This kind of backstay arrangement is very common and effective on racing yachts as it gives the ability to tension the backstay as desired for sail-shaping. 

There is little chance of the backstay being flogged or chafed when sailing, so that particular advantage of stainless steel standing rigging is irrelevant.


I'm just wondering if anyone has seen this kind of arrangement on an Amel?


Am I just being over-fussy with my dislike of the whole stand-off thing?


Is there a better way to make that backstay antenna lead-in?  Maybe just using a single insulator near the top of the backstay is acceptable, and install a plastic sleeve over the lower (reachable) section for safety? Has anyone done that?


So many questions. I do find it difficult trying to visualise this when not standing looking at the stbd aft quarter of the boat!


Cheers
Dean

SY Stella

AMEL 54#154 

  





.


Re: Since we are talking about seals...

greatketch@...
 

Thanks Mark,

The basic job of the two inner seals is to keep a solid "plug" of grease between the oil and the water.  I'll make that clearer.

The primary reason I like silicone greases for that is they wash out in neither water, nor oil.  So they stay in place well.  When mine comes apart for service, the grease between these seals is almost as clear and white as the day it goes in.

Ironically, the wear on the "wear out bearing" is always the worst on the innermost seal, lubricated primarily by the gearcase oil.  It's counter intuitive to me at least, but grease is the more effective lubricant for seals.  

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Spanish Wells, Bahamas


Re: Since we are talking about seals...

mfmcgovern@...
 

Bill,

Great write up and perfect timing as I am in the midst of my first Bowthruster service and I will start my first C-Drive service soon thereafter! 

I think that you may have left a paragraph out of the "C-Drive Underwater Shaft Seals" section. You start a paragraph with "Let’s trace the three seals…"  but then you only talk about the outermost seal before going on to extol the many virtues of Molykote 111. ;)  I was hoping you could expound upon the two inner seals as well if you can.

Thanks,
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Since we are talking about seals...

michael winand
 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Great article showing what not to do. 

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 8:18 am, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]
wrote:
 

Some time ago I had started to write up a short article on the lip seals that we have to deal with as Amel owners, but it quickly became longer than planned... and I had put it aside while other things pressed.


Since we have recently been talking about lip seals both in general and in specific cases, I sat down and brought it up to the point where it is ready for public consumption.


https://fetchinketch.net/boat-projects/lipseals/


Hopefully, you find it worth what you paid for it!  :-D


Corrections, and questions always welcome.


Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Spanish Wells, Bahamas


Since we are talking about seals...

greatketch@...
 

Some time ago I had started to write up a short article on the lip seals that we have to deal with as Amel owners, but it quickly became longer than planned... and I had put it aside while other things pressed.


Since we have recently been talking about lip seals both in general and in specific cases, I sat down and brought it up to the point where it is ready for public consumption.


https://fetchinketch.net/boat-projects/lipseals/


Hopefully, you find it worth what you paid for it!  :-D


Corrections, and questions always welcome.


Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Spanish Wells, Bahamas


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Engine blower fan

greatketch@...
 

All that Bill R says, and a little bit more... 

In short, the Amel forced ventilation fans are an important part of the system, and should be replaced if they fail.  A failed fan is not an urgent emergency, but it absolutely should not be ignored either.

The engine block itself doesn't really care about the ambient temperature, and loses a negligible amount of heat to the surrounding air even if it was very cold.  But... 

A diesel engine not only requires air to breath, it also requires COOL air to breath.  Engines do not like inhaling very hot air, it reduces performance significantly because the amount of oxygen available per cubic foot is reduced.  As a VERY rough estimate, increase the temperature 3 deg C reduces the O2 content per cubic foot by 1%.  Raise the supply air temperature by 30C, and the power the engine can generate drops by 10%. That's not peanuts. The cooler the intake air the more power the engine will generate, and the more efficiently it will burn its fuel.

One published formula for the MINIMUM air flow into a diesel engine room is 
(2.75 * HP) - 90 = Cubic Feet per Minute.  

For the Volvo TMD22 this would be about (2.75*75)-90=116 cu ft/min.  And that is a bare minimum. There is no such thing as "too much." 

In some cases, you can supply this much air with passive ventilation, certainly many boats do (or try to!) but Amel's vents are too small for this.  

Keeping an engine room as cool as possible has LOTS of advantages far beyond the comfort of the humans who might have to enter.  All electrical equipment, including the alternator, work better and last a LOT longer if cool than if hot.  On a Super Maramu, keeping the genset supplied with cooler air is important to have it last, because the generator windings are air cooled. Not to mention: battery chargers, transformers, inverters, assorted electric motors, and what-all-have-you. All are air-cooled and would be very unhappy in an unventilated engine room that could easily top 60 deg C after a long motor in the tropics.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Spanish Wells, Bahamas



---In amelyachtowners@..., <brouse@...> wrote :

I suspect that the engine's heat exchanger does 99% of the job in cooling the engine and the blower/fan does the rest of the job for the engine. I suspect the blower/fan's primary mission is to ventilate petroleum fumes and make the engine room a better place for you.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970



On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 10:40 AM smiles bernard smilesbernard@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 


Hello there
I was wondering about the fragility of an engine cooling system that relies on an electric blower /fan
This I presume is the case for all Vintage Maramus - not sure if it’s also the case for Super Maramus too?
In the older Maramus like mine the blower fan is located in the port cockpit seat coaming area
I wondered if in the case of the electric fan failure it would be ok to simply remove the fan altogether and let the engine draw/suck air through he delivery ducts that the blower uses.
Any thoughts on this one?
Is the blower fan actually necessary in case of failure ?

Thoughts and any experience much appreciated

All the very best

Miles
Maramu 46 #162
Barbados



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Engine blower fan

Julie Bradley <redjuliebradley@...>
 

Hello Miles!  We owned a vintage Maramu before our SM and Glen, my husband did a tremendous amount of work in that engine compartment, often emerging with bloody arms and hands.  Glen has a lot to contribute to this forum and I will ask Mark to approve his email address on this user group.  Meanwhile I forwarded your email to him and will post if you don't come up with the answer before then.  Fair winds, Julie Bradley, author, Escape from the Ordinary



On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 9:40 AM smiles bernard smilesbernard@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 


Hello there
I was wondering about the fragility of an engine cooling system that relies on an electric blower /fan
This I presume is the case for all Vintage Maramus - not sure if it’s also the case for Super Maramus too?
In the older Maramus like mine the blower fan is located in the port cockpit seat coaming area
I wondered if in the case of the electric fan failure it would be ok to simply remove the fan altogether and let the engine draw/suck air through he delivery ducts that the blower uses.
Any thoughts on this one?
Is the blower fan actually necessary in case of failure ?

Thoughts and any experience much appreciated

All the very best

Miles
Maramu 46 #162
Barbados



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Freezer Insulation

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Duane,

certainly sounds a bit of a mess. Not sure about faulty methodology by Amel. A few months ago I removed Ocean Pearls freezer so I could do a full clean of the water tank. All the insulation was in perfect order, the tech who I employed to do the piping disconnect/connect thought this remarkable as it showed no sign of ever being wet. We lived aboard for two tears as we sailed her home and then for several years 4 or 5 months a year in tropical Pacific islands. (not a flaming arrow just a wonder if you need to look for another reason)

Kind Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

Mangonui

New Zealand

On 16 January 2019 at 03:54 "sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

I'm looking for suggestions on how to improve the insulation in our aft (and only) freezer.


We have had condensation from the freezer running into the deck locker just to stbd of the freezer for some time.  When we pulled the freezer out (not too bad of a job) I see that Amel used a liquid foam method where they built a form around the freezer (upside down) and injected foam to form the walls.  Then they put a bottom on the wall forms and injected foam thru a 4" diameter hole to form the bottom.  The thickness was: 3" bottom; 2" stbd side; 2.5" port; 1.5" fwd; 


The insulation was soaked at the joint between the "walls" and the "bottom" foam applications due to cracking/shrinkage/poor jointing, because air could penetrate through the voids and get to the cold surface and condense.  The foam was also deeply cracked in several places, again causing condensation. It was so wet in these areas when you pressed on the foam, water would flow out.  I can't imagine why Amel didn't use a closed cell foam.  I would say this is not one of Amels finest moments (OK, I'M READY FOR THE FLAMING ARROWS).  The saturated insulation was frozen where it was close to the box, and the wet unfrozen insulation must have been nearly worthless (I estimate this area to be 50%).  It must have been in this condition shortly after construction, but if you're not living aboard the insulation has a chance to dry out between uses.


The wood panels forming the stbd and fwd sides are not removable without cutting through fiberglass tabbing and disconnecting the refrigerant lines, which seems to me major surgery I'm not eager to take on afloat.


I've removed the wet insulation on the bottom, and the sides up to the wood panels (took about two hours).  Above that level there wasn't much saturated foam (I think it was wicking upward  into the "wall" from the "bottom" joint).  I'll let it dry on the main cabin table for a week.  I'm thinking of replacing this with 3 inches of closed cell EPS foam insulation board.  There is room on the back for an additional 2" of EPS (Amel put a 2" batt of insualtion there taped to the galley cabinets).  Then painting all the insulation I can reach with a paint intended to cut off vapor transmission to the foam.  This EPS has an R value of 2.9 per inch of thickness, so 3" is 8.7 which has to be better than the sauturated insulation.  On the back with the additional 1.5" board it will be an R of 13.


The insulation has to be glued to the freezer box (polyurethane construction glue?), and since the box has rounded corners there will be voids.  I'm thinking of leaving gaps between the "walls" and "bottom" insulation joints and filling them with one of the spray can crack filling foams to try to make it as vapor tight as possible.  I thought about a plastic vapor barrier but I can't access behind the wood panels on the fwd and stbd sides.


Any thoughts or suggestions on this method?


Thanks,

Duane

Wanderer, SM#477


 


 


 


Re: Engine blower fan

carcodespam@...
 

My Sharki has 2 fans, one upstream and one downstream. It is not only the engine producing heat but also the alternators which are air cooled.  Because the batteries are placed in the engine room too it is good to cool the room because batteries does not like too much heat.

Gerhard
Sharki #60


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Engine blower fan

 

I suspect that the engine's heat exchanger does 99% of the job in cooling the engine and the blower/fan does the rest of the job for the engine. I suspect the blower/fan's primary mission is to ventilate petroleum fumes and make the engine room a better place for you.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970



On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 10:40 AM smiles bernard smilesbernard@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 


Hello there
I was wondering about the fragility of an engine cooling system that relies on an electric blower /fan
This I presume is the case for all Vintage Maramus - not sure if it’s also the case for Super Maramus too?
In the older Maramus like mine the blower fan is located in the port cockpit seat coaming area
I wondered if in the case of the electric fan failure it would be ok to simply remove the fan altogether and let the engine draw/suck air through he delivery ducts that the blower uses.
Any thoughts on this one?
Is the blower fan actually necessary in case of failure ?

Thoughts and any experience much appreciated

All the very best

Miles
Maramu 46 #162
Barbados



Engine blower fan

smiles bernard
 

Hello there
I was wondering about the fragility of an engine cooling system that relies on an electric blower /fan
This I presume is the case for all Vintage Maramus - not sure if it’s also the case for Super Maramus too?
In the older Maramus like mine the blower fan is located in the port cockpit seat coaming area
I wondered if in the case of the electric fan failure it would be ok to simply remove the fan altogether and let the engine draw/suck air through he delivery ducts that the blower uses.
Any thoughts on this one?
Is the blower fan actually necessary in case of failure ?

Thoughts and any experience much appreciated

All the very best

Miles
Maramu 46 #162
Barbados


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Main Sail Furling Motor Issue

Duane Siegfri
 

Porter, 

I didn't do a write up on the motor gearboxes, just the manual gearbox.  You can find that here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/amelyachtowners/search/photos?query=gearbox#zax/albums_449168476.


Note that the second link has the bearings used, but I didn't see the oil seals listed.

Duane
Wanderer, SM#477


Freezer Insulation

Duane Siegfri
 

I'm looking for suggestions on how to improve the insulation in our aft (and only) freezer.


We have had condensation from the freezer running into the deck locker just to stbd of the freezer for some time.  When we pulled the freezer out (not too bad of a job) I see that Amel used a liquid foam method where they built a form around the freezer (upside down) and injected foam to form the walls.  Then they put a bottom on the wall forms and injected foam thru a 4" diameter hole to form the bottom.  The thickness was: 3" bottom; 2" stbd side; 2.5" port; 1.5" fwd; 


The insulation was soaked at the joint between the "walls" and the "bottom" foam applications due to cracking/shrinkage/poor jointing, because air could penetrate through the voids and get to the cold surface and condense.  The foam was also deeply cracked in several places, again causing condensation. It was so wet in these areas when you pressed on the foam, water would flow out.  I can't imagine why Amel didn't use a closed cell foam.  I would say this is not one of Amels finest moments (OK, I'M READY FOR THE FLAMING ARROWS).  The saturated insulation was frozen where it was close to the box, and the wet unfrozen insulation must have been nearly worthless (I estimate this area to be 50%).  It must have been in this condition shortly after construction, but if you're not living aboard the insulation has a chance to dry out between uses.


The wood panels forming the stbd and fwd sides are not removable without cutting through fiberglass tabbing and disconnecting the refrigerant lines, which seems to me major surgery I'm not eager to take on afloat.


I've removed the wet insulation on the bottom, and the sides up to the wood panels (took about two hours).  Above that level there wasn't much saturated foam (I think it was wicking upward  into the "wall" from the "bottom" joint).  I'll let it dry on the main cabin table for a week.  I'm thinking of replacing this with 3 inches of closed cell EPS foam insulation board.  There is room on the back for an additional 2" of EPS (Amel put a 2" batt of insualtion there taped to the galley cabinets).  Then painting all the insulation I can reach with a paint intended to cut off vapor transmission to the foam.  This EPS has an R value of 2.9 per inch of thickness, so 3" is 8.7 which has to be better than the sauturated insulation.  On the back with the additional 1.5" board it will be an R of 13.


The insulation has to be glued to the freezer box (polyurethane construction glue?), and since the box has rounded corners there will be voids.  I'm thinking of leaving gaps between the "walls" and "bottom" insulation joints and filling them with one of the spray can crack filling foams to try to make it as vapor tight as possible.  I thought about a plastic vapor barrier but I can't access behind the wood panels on the fwd and stbd sides.


Any thoughts or suggestions on this method?


Thanks,

Duane

Wanderer, SM#477



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Main Sail Furling Motor Issue

greatketch@...
 

Ah, now I got it. What you describe is a worm gear, but...

You are not referring to the manual gearbox, rather the electrically driven gearboxes.  The manual box is the one attached to the foil designed as a backup for the the electric designed to be driven by a winch handle.

A "double lip seal" is NOT two smaller ones!  Even if you could find seals so thin as to fit two in that housing, it would be a bad idea.  A "double lip seal" is the same size seal frame, and would look superficially the same, but with the rubber shaped into two lips, one specifically designed to keep grease/oil in and the other to keep contaminants out.  They are not available in all seal sizes.

Removal, and proper replacement of any lipseal requires disassembly. It should never be done with the shaft in place. There is simply no good way to remove the seal without risking serious damage to the shaft or seal housing.  With the C-drive the removal of the wearing out bearing gives the room around the shaft to work.  There is no similar alternative on the gearboxes.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Spanish Wells, Bahamas




---In amelyachtowners@..., <sailor63109@...> wrote :

Bill,

I'm pretty sure of my terminology (per Google anyway).  The worm gear I mentioned is "a shaft with a spiral groove meant to engage a gear" turned by the motor.  The worm gear turned a large round gear that turned the furler extrusion.  Mine are Leroy Somer MVA gearboxes.  

I definitely agree with your lip seal comments.  I'm not sure I can get mine out without disassembly.  Are you able to remove them similiar to the C-Drive prop shaft lip seals?  Using two smaller ones makes sense.  

Duane
Wanderer, SM#477
West Palm Beach and headed to the Bahamas.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Main Sail Furling Motor Issue

Duane Siegfri
 

Bill,

I'm pretty sure of my terminology (per Google anyway).  The worm gear I mentioned is "a shaft with a spiral groove meant to engage a gear" turned by the motor.  The worm gear turned a large round gear that turned the furler extrusion.  Mine are Leroy Somer MVA gearboxes.  

I definitely agree with your lip seal comments.  I'm not sure I can get mine out without disassembly.  Are you able to remove them similiar to the C-Drive prop shaft lip seals?  Using two smaller ones makes sense.  

Duane
Wanderer, SM#477
West Palm Beach and headed to the Bahamas.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Main Sail Furling Motor Issue

Craig Briggs
 

Hi Porter,
The zip tie was likely around the "V" seal that sits on top of all, hopefully keeping stuff out of the rest of the assembly. As they deteriorate they crack open and people often "repair" that with a zip tie rather than disassemble to install a fresh one.
Cheers,
Craig Briggs, SN68

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