Hi Scott;

 

Very impressive numbers. I am familiar the Lithium battery technology and all the benefits you mention, since we have been using it in giant scale radio control airplane models (Up to 60% scale) for years.

 

The one major issue with lithium that has prevented us from making the change to Lithium on Kokomo, has been safety. There have been many cases of these batteries burning down models as well as houses, when the fire happened to occur in the house.

 

In most cases the issue has been misuse or equipment failure, that has led to overcharge/discharge but some that seem to have been without any external input and not during usage  As far as I have observed, , once the fire starts, it cannot be extinguished with standard firefighting equipment. It basically seems to need to burn itself out.

 

Do you know which lithium technology Mastervolt uses? (Lithium Polymer, ION, LIFE, or ?) Did you ever happen to address the safety and evaluate the hazards with this technology? What was your conclusion and how do you view the hazards associated with these batteries?

 

I would also be interested in seeing a picture of your solar setup, if you have one. Thanks for posting all the useful information and data.

 

 

 

Respectfully;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 5:25 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium

 

Very interesting re serial vs parallel. I do find a big drop in production with shading, much better days if the wind keeps the solar pointed towards the sun. I’ll have to run a bit more wire to the mppt. I’ll try that in NZ and see what we get. Thanks for the suggestion!!

 

Appreciated 

 

Porter A54-152

Excuse the errors.  

Sent from my IPhone 

Www.fouribis.com

On Aug 6, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Porter, 

I guess you mean far from the panels to the mppt? 

Maybe you can experiment with parallel to see if you get higher output. I believe parallel is better than serial when you have shading on some panels and not others. 

I have the 3 pairs of wires from the panels to a switch in the aft lazarette.  Then one pair from the lazarette to the mppt which is behind the main switches in the passage berth. Of course the batteries are near there. 

Seems to be no problem with the distance as I'm getting up to 6500wh per day as you can see on the data I posted earlier. 
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Mohammad,

Both Victron, which I have and Mastervolt use lifepo4 chemistry, a much safer (but less energy dense) technology than the lithium ion that is more common. I don't know much about RC planes, but I assume for weight, they'd go with the lithium ion, which is far more prone to catching fire and when they do have thermal runaway, burn much hotter and are likely to ignite adjacent cells.

I'll write about my thoughts on safety in a later post. I'm sure you know about the relative safety of lifepo4, but here's a FAA fire hazard analysis done on the various battery types as they are often used in real airplanes. I read this last year before I was contemplating adding lithium to my boat.

Lifepo4 is shown to be safer than the other lithium chemistries. 

https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf

While safer, it's not without risk. Then again, neither is lead acid as I personally know the owner of an Amel who experienced an unexplained lead acid battery bank explosion. Luckily no one was sleeping on the passage berth at the time.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Very interesting re serial vs parallel. I do find a big drop in production with shading, much better days if the wind keeps the solar pointed towards the sun. I’ll have to run a bit more wire to the mppt. I’ll try that in NZ and see what we get. Thanks for the suggestion!!

The JIC is a designation of the connection. It does not necessarily have to be reusable. Most are not. I will bet that a hydraulic shop can make you the hoses with stainless steel fittings permanently pressed on.

Did you bring a hose to a bigger hydraulic shop?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2019 3:53 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Dessslator HP hoses

 

Eric, thanks,
It turned out to become a problem here in Faro, Portugal. JIC looks like its not so available in europe?

Oliver from Vela Nautica
A54#39
Faro, Portugal

Sent from my Huawei Mobile

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Dessslator HP hoses
From: eric freedman
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
CC:

Oliver, you can get the JIC fittings at any good hydraulic shop.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 11:37 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Dessslator HP hoses

 

Hi All,
I ran into same problem and the hose from high pressure pump came off before i could change my hoses.
Does anybody know how these terminals are caled? What kind of connector is that?
Since I learned here that the end fittings are reusable i will order the hoses in France.
Dessalator did not give a hint that I can reuse the fittings.

Oliver A54#39
Portugal

Sent from my Huawei Mobile

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Dessslator HP hoses
From: "Aldo Roldan via Groups.Io"
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
CC:

Alan.  Would you please provide the Dessalator US rep information? I was not aware they had one.  Thank you . Aldo

 

A55- Araucaria 

On Jul 23, 2019, at 11:46 AM, Alan Grayson <bazgrayson@...> wrote:

Hi All, im about to order new HP hoses from the dessalator rep in the US. The end fittings are reusable and so you only need to buy the hose unless like me one of your ends are damaged.
There are 2 options for this.
1: buy the hose from France and any ends that you need. Hose $40 fittings $93.00 each, shipping $70
2: buy new hose and ends from the US. the hose is different and the fittings are slightly different with the same threaded ends. They are not interchangeable. Cost of 2 new hoses $472.00
I'm buying the hose and 1 end fitting from France.
If anyone else wants to buy either hoses or fittings from France and add to my order please let me know by Thurs 25th by noon eastern time. The order will be shipping to me in Annapolis and i'll forward from here if you pay shipping to your destination.
Regards
Alan Grayson
SV Ora Pai
Annapolis, MD

I need to replace the springs in one of my Antal genoa cars.
The springs and block are attached to the car by a stainless rod that runs
from fwd to aft and is dead ended at the aft end.
There is a split pin through a hole in the rod to prevent the rod from
coming out.
I can't turn the rod to get the split pin out...and even if I could I doubt
that I could get the rod out.
Has anyone done this before?
Any advice on how to remove that rod ?
Thanks
Alan
Elyse SM437

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Eamonn Washington
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 4:54 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Shore power contactor burnt out

Hi

The aft lazarette shore power breaker is mounted in a plastic purpose made housing with just the breaker switches protruding.  The manual transfer switch is housed in the original housing of the original contactor, after a little cutting.

No, I was not able to source a galvanic isolator here but it is on my to-do list.  What size galvanic isolator is required?  With 20A breakers I suppose it makes no sense to go for a higher rated galvanic isolator for the earth connection.

--
Eamonn Washington
Travel Bug
Super Maramu #151
Currently in Cagliari, Sardinia, Italy.

Porter, 

I guess you mean far from the panels to the mppt? 

Maybe you can experiment with parallel to see if you get higher output. I believe parallel is better than serial when you have shading on some panels and not others. 

I have the 3 pairs of wires from the panels to a switch in the aft lazarette.  Then one pair from the lazarette to the mppt which is behind the main switches in the passage berth. Of course the batteries are near there. 

Seems to be no problem with the distance as I'm getting up to 6500wh per day as you can see on the data I posted earlier. 
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Very cool...Hope I’m able to still do that when I’m 82. This is my cool ne airplane. 

On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Paul Brown <feeder.brown@...> wrote:

Hey Scott, thank you and I was figuring a 5000w inverter upgrade (Maybe a 7500w when available)to run all from 24v when possible, I too have a Bauer junior. I guess then genset is still a great reliable generation item and needed for those jobs, but’s it is great to live off batteries most of the time and look forward to the day when it’s easy.

Nice sharing with you and thanks for the advice 

Regards Paul Fortuna II A55#17

On 6 Aug 2019, at 8:36 pm, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

At the risk of costing you some money on upgrades, I will say that being able to run all the 220v appliances without the genset is one of the biggest advantages of having lithium. Especially the washing machine as it takes such a long time and has such variable draw but a low average draw, so you're unnecessarily adding runtime to the genset unless you batch it with a lot of other uses.

We have the Victron Quattro 24v/5000va/120amp. At 5000watts, more or less, the only 220v appliance that won't run is the Bauer Junior II scuba compressor. And that's only due to the startup current required. I can probably start the scuba compressor with the genset and continue with the inverter. With your mostly Mastervolt setup, I'd suggest sticking to Mastervolt so the batteries can talk to the inverter. But I'm sure Mastervolt has a similar product.

The danger of having that much inverter capacity is that people sometimes think it's really like being at home. The admiral has been known to run the electric boiler, induction stovetop and microwave at the same time on battery/inverter. With respect to the batteries, it's only around half the recommended continuous draw, but it still makes me cringe!

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Hey Scott, thank you and I was figuring a 5000w inverter upgrade (Maybe a 7500w when available)to run all from 24v when possible, I too have a Bauer junior. I guess then genset is still a great reliable generation item and needed for those jobs, but’s it is great to live off batteries most of the time and look forward to the day when it’s easy.

Nice sharing with you and thanks for the advice 

Regards Paul Fortuna II A55#17

On 6 Aug 2019, at 8:36 pm, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

At the risk of costing you some money on upgrades, I will say that being able to run all the 220v appliances without the genset is one of the biggest advantages of having lithium. Especially the washing machine as it takes such a long time and has such variable draw but a low average draw, so you're unnecessarily adding runtime to the genset unless you batch it with a lot of other uses.

We have the Victron Quattro 24v/5000va/120amp. At 5000watts, more or less, the only 220v appliance that won't run is the Bauer Junior II scuba compressor. And that's only due to the startup current required. I can probably start the scuba compressor with the genset and continue with the inverter. With your mostly Mastervolt setup, I'd suggest sticking to Mastervolt so the batteries can talk to the inverter. But I'm sure Mastervolt has a similar product.

The danger of having that much inverter capacity is that people sometimes think it's really like being at home. The admiral has been known to run the electric boiler, induction stovetop and microwave at the same time on battery/inverter. With respect to the batteries, it's only around half the recommended continuous draw, but it still makes me cringe!

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Porter,

You've astutely pointed out one of the major advantages of Lifepo4. 

Charging your lead (?) batteries between 80-100% maximizes their longevity but results in them having trouble accepting even mid-day full current from your panels. With lifepo4, it can accept full current until high 90s state of charge. 

As a corollary, we have 220v chargers that total 200amps. The batteries accept the full current up until 95-98% and that's why our genset runtime is so short. Add in the charging efficiency with only 3% lost through heat vs. 20%+ on lead and it makes a huge difference on both genset usage and solar charging efficiency. 

PS - are you running the 3 panels serial or parallel? If you aren't sure, you can check the voltages on the numerical data. 





--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Paul,

At the risk of costing you some money on upgrades, I will say that being able to run all the 220v appliances without the genset is one of the biggest advantages of having lithium. Especially the washing machine as it takes such a long time and has such variable draw but a low average draw, so you're unnecessarily adding runtime to the genset unless you batch it with a lot of other uses.

We have the Victron Quattro 24v/5000va/120amp. At 5000watts, more or less, the only 220v appliance that won't run is the Bauer Junior II scuba compressor. And that's only due to the startup current required. I can probably start the scuba compressor with the genset and continue with the inverter. With your mostly Mastervolt setup, I'd suggest sticking to Mastervolt so the batteries can talk to the inverter. But I'm sure Mastervolt has a similar product.

The danger of having that much inverter capacity is that people sometimes think it's really like being at home. The admiral has been known to run the electric boiler, induction stovetop and microwave at the same time on battery/inverter. With respect to the batteries, it's only around half the recommended continuous draw, but it still makes me cringe!

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com