Date   
Re: Dessalator Duo watermakers - energy saving tip: don't use 230v if you can avoid it

Denis Foster
 

Hello,

Concerning the Dessalator DUO 100, the information I have gathered :

- the 230V motor is more efficient and the good flow in the membranes keep them in good conditions for longer (4000h versus 2000h with the 24V flow)
- a good feeding pump allowing sufficient flow through double 20 and 5 micron filters are good for the CAT pump. Avoiding cavitation is crucial for longevity.
- Reading Oliver of Vela Nautic who is very knowledgeable the Dessalator duo 230V motor can be improved to an industrial grade with excellent bearings and shafts.
- A lot of electronics can look good but is prone to more complex failures difficult to fix.


This research also led me to have a look at Aquatec German made water maker that advocates 230V when generator is fitted. But I like the redundancy of the DUO that has also 24V motor in case the generator fails. (Which does happen). They indicate the use of a high quality Stainless Steel high pressure pump.

The ideal water maker would be a combination of both concepts allowing reliability and redundancy.

As I am not an expert of this field I would like to have your real world feed back on the ideal Blue Water Cruising water maker.

Thank's 

Denis

Ex Madinina Meltem 

Re: Dessalator Duo watermakers - energy saving tip: don't use 230v if you can avoid it

Jamie Wendell
 

Almost wish I had the duo system after looking at those numbers. I only have the 230 VAC version.,,,,,,,
The good news is that it has been pretty reliable - the only issue I had was the mounts for the low-pressure pump (replaced in Martinique) and the high-pressure switch failing (also replaced). I also replaced the HP hoses, as the covering seems to go bad pretty fast.
I am due, though, for a membrane replacement (second time) - not a fun job for sure. I have the new ones ready to go.
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

Re: Dessalator Duo watermakers - energy saving tip: don't use 230v if you can avoid it

Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Hello,

We got the same Duo 100.
It was compleatly falling apart after only 300h of use when we got Vela Nautica. 
We gave it a compleat refit what included an one DIN grade stronger AC Motor because CAT PUMP Germany said the build in AC Motor is not strong enough. And the motor shaft was worn out. 
It was also needed to replace the soft pulley discs to industrial grade ones and change all bearings to high quality SKF. 
The selenoid previously munted on the device did not cope with the units vibrations and was then wall mounted. 

Since that its working flawless and has now about 900 hours. The unit is now almoast vibration free and is not to be heard anymore.

We use AC only when the Genset is working anyway. Otherwise we use the 24V motor. We like this oportunity to switch AC / 24 V, I think its a clever design. Only it might be wise to use higher grade spares than the original brand. 

An replacement of the 220 V AC motor is not really expensive (industrial grade about 160 €) so its not worth to level motor wear. 


Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54#39 
Martinique 

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 16:29 Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
We have a Desslator Duo 100 that runs on either 24v DC or 230v AC.

According to the specs and our own measurements, the 24v motor draws 600watts and the 230v motor draws 1100watts! The AC motor draws 83% more energy, so I asked Desslator if it produced more water per hour. Here's their response:

"It is the pulleys ratio which make both motors turn at the same speed at the axis of the pump, even if the electrical consumption is more important with the AC motor.  

Consequently, both motors produce the same liters per hour (around 100 liters with a 25° sea water)."


I've been trying to "balance out" the motor wear by using both DC and AC, as I'm acutely aware of the problem of DC motor brush wear on my fridge pumps. But it seems if you're trying to do your part to save energy, running the AC motor is not a good idea.

Related question - what are people's experiences with DC and AC motor longevity. My research on DC motor brushes seems to indicate 2000-3000 hours of life is typical. What about the AC motor? I recall hearing the capacitors being the first things to go?

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Re: Lubrication of the Mechanism That Drives The Main Sail Furling Unit

karkauai
 

Hi Bill.
Yes, I'm referring to the manual furler that the winch handle goes in.
I don't know how you could add oil with it in place. Mine had never been serviced, and hearing about the shearing off of the foil, I wanted to remove it to check that anyway.  Mine had holes that were elongated to about 15mm, so I cut it off and drilled new holes.

There was still oil in the gearbox, but only a cup or so, and it was black.  After dismantling it and cleaning it up, I reassembled it and with it lying on the bench with the opening where the drive shaft goes in facing up, I poured in the oil and then finished assembling.
Hope that helps,
Kent


On Jun 30, 2020 2:24 PM, Bill Shaproski <bill.shaproski@...> wrote:
Hi Kent and Iris,
Thanks much for the info.  I just want to confirm that when you say you serviced the manual furler you are referring to the unit at the bottom of the main sail where you insert the winch handle to manually furl or unfurl the main when the electric system has failed.  If yes, were you able to lubricate the inside of the unit with the unit in place. If so, how was this accomplished?  I reviewed a YouTube video from Ken on Aquarius where he explains how to completely rebuild the unit which looks reasonably challenging.  So if there's a way to lube it without disassembly I'd prefer that.  

Thanks for your interest.

Regards
Bill Shaproski
Pacific Cool  

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 8:00 AM karkauai via groups.io <karkauai=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Bill.
I just serviced my manual furler for the main. It is filled with a very heavy gear oil.  I found only one place (in England) that sold it by the liter, otherwise it is sold in very large quantities and is very expensive. It was shipped to me in the USA in about a week at a reasonable price. A liter is enough to service it 2-3 times.
 It is Shell Oil Omala S4 WE320

After reinstalling it there was a small amount of oil on the deck the next day or two. It stopped leaking after a few days and hasn't been leaking for two weeks including furling and unfurling several times.
What specifically did you want to know?
Kent & Iris
SM243
Kristy


On Jun 18, 2020 9:00 AM, Bill Shaproski <bill.shaproski@...> wrote:
I did find a group of messages from 2012 that address my question.  But I would like to find someone who has done this recently to ask some specific questions.  
Regards,
Bill Shaproski



--
Bill Shaproski
Cell:  +1-206-375-2787

Dessalator Duo watermakers - energy saving tip: don't use 230v if you can avoid it

Scott SV Tengah
 

We have a Desslator Duo 100 that runs on either 24v DC or 230v AC.

According to the specs and our own measurements, the 24v motor draws 600watts and the 230v motor draws 1100watts! The AC motor draws 83% more energy, so I asked Desslator if it produced more water per hour. Here's their response:

"It is the pulleys ratio which make both motors turn at the same speed at the axis of the pump, even if the electrical consumption is more important with the AC motor.  

Consequently, both motors produce the same liters per hour (around 100 liters with a 25° sea water)."


I've been trying to "balance out" the motor wear by using both DC and AC, as I'm acutely aware of the problem of DC motor brush wear on my fridge pumps. But it seems if you're trying to do your part to save energy, running the AC motor is not a good idea.

Related question - what are people's experiences with DC and AC motor longevity. My research on DC motor brushes seems to indicate 2000-3000 hours of life is typical. What about the AC motor? I recall hearing the capacitors being the first things to go?

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Scott SV Tengah
 

To help redirect this thread back to the topic :) :

March Pumps responded and their shafts are round and either

1/4 inch = 6.35mm
3/8 inch = 9.525mm

We just need to find an adapter that can take a round imperial shaft size and make it a metric 8mm D-shaped shaft size!

Another question to ponder: the shaft will rotate millions or billions of times. The alignment should therefore be perfect, right? Is that too much to ask of an adapter?

Also, let's try to find motors that meet the flow spec and use as little energy as possible. Veco specs that we need about 4 liters / 1 gal per minute. The current flojet uses around 26-40w, so I am hoping we can get a replacement that doesn't use a lot more than that.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Re: Lubrication of the Mechanism That Drives The Main Sail Furling Unit

Bill Shaproski
 

Hi Kent and Iris,
Thanks much for the info.  I just want to confirm that when you say you serviced the manual furler you are referring to the unit at the bottom of the main sail where you insert the winch handle to manually furl or unfurl the main when the electric system has failed.  If yes, were you able to lubricate the inside of the unit with the unit in place. If so, how was this accomplished?  I reviewed a YouTube video from Ken on Aquarius where he explains how to completely rebuild the unit which looks reasonably challenging.  So if there's a way to lube it without disassembly I'd prefer that.  

Thanks for your interest.

Regards
Bill Shaproski
Pacific Cool  

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 8:00 AM karkauai via groups.io <karkauai=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Bill.
I just serviced my manual furler for the main. It is filled with a very heavy gear oil.  I found only one place (in England) that sold it by the liter, otherwise it is sold in very large quantities and is very expensive. It was shipped to me in the USA in about a week at a reasonable price. A liter is enough to service it 2-3 times.
 It is Shell Oil Omala S4 WE320

After reinstalling it there was a small amount of oil on the deck the next day or two. It stopped leaking after a few days and hasn't been leaking for two weeks including furling and unfurling several times.
What specifically did you want to know?
Kent & Iris
SM243
Kristy


On Jun 18, 2020 9:00 AM, Bill Shaproski <bill.shaproski@...> wrote:
I did find a group of messages from 2012 that address my question.  But I would like to find someone who has done this recently to ask some specific questions.  
Regards,
Bill Shaproski



--
Bill Shaproski
Cell:  +1-206-375-2787

Re: Lubrication of the Mechanism That Drives The Main Sail Furling Unit

Bill Shaproski
 

Hi Randall,
Thanks much for the info on Ken's video on how to rebuild the main sail manual furler.  It's exactly what I was looking for.  In fact I met Ken several times two years ago in the Caribbean. 
Regards
Bill Shaproski
Pacific Cool 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 12:50 PM Randall <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:
Hello Bill,

Not sure if this helps, but i remembered seeing this video by Ken on Aquarius.


Randall,
A54 #56

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 3:15 AM Bill Shaproski <bill.shaproski@...> wrote:
There is black grease leaking from the the mechanism that you put the winch handle into to furl the main sail in or out when the gearbox and motor are disconnected.  If I disassemble the unit by removing the bolts holding it together, is it going to require some complicated reassembly.  Any help with how to grease that unit are much appreciated.  I have a 1995 Super Maramu.  

BTW, I found a brand new Bonfiglioli gearbox for the furling unit in a small town in The Netherlands.  The price was only about $125.  Furthermore it came with the shaft installed through theunit with a head piece that mates with the furler.  I planned to use the shaft from the unit being removed, but it was seized in the unit.  All other gearboxes I have found are in the $350 to $550 range.  The Netherlands company is PLC2DAY.com Tele: +31-161-416125.  They said that they had one more in stock.  It's listed as used, but it's brand new.  

Regards,
Bill Shaproski



--
Bill Shaproski
Cell:  +1-206-375-2787

Maramu Furling Mainsail - NEW for sale.

 

Furling Mainsail in HydraNet. New. Located in the US. see https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/ShareParts/topic/maramu_furling_mainsail_never/75216717?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,75216717
--
 
Best,
 
CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Jamie Wendell
 

The new engine has been excellent after 1300 hours or so. Very happy I went with the 150i, although the 110i would probably be just fine as well.

I am certain that Amel is acting with an abundance of caution, as the gearbox (and maybe the C-Drive) is not technically rated for the higher power engine. I am ALWAYS very cautious and never throttle the engine too fast or exceed 2000 rpm - no need to really, since the power curve for the D3-110 and D3-150 are identical up to about 1750 rpm. Above that is when the extra power kicks in.

Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Teun BAAS
 

Jamie,

 

In May 2018 I also replaced my D3-110C. But after getting the strong advise from AMEL withstood, reluctantly, the tremendous temptation to also go for the D3-150H as it was only a chip and for the same price. So now I have the D3-110H

 

I assume you have now the D3-150H; how is that working out. Not to mess up this thread pls Email me @: teun@...

 

Best Regards Teun

AMELIT A54 #128

June 29, 2020 17:07:45

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jamie Wendell via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 16:47
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

 

Teun, not to hijack this thread, which is about the infernal refrigerator pump problems we have all been having, I should point out that I had to replace my Volvo Penta engine a couple of years ago.
Since the new D3 engines have identical footprints (just different tuning), I upgraded from the D3-110 to the D3-150. It uses more fuel at the same RPM, so I tend to burn more fuel than I did before.
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Jamie Wendell
 

Teun, not to hijack this thread, which is about the infernal refrigerator pump problems we have all been having, I should point out that I had to replace my Volvo Penta engine a couple of years ago.
Since the new D3 engines have identical footprints (just different tuning), I upgraded from the D3-110 to the D3-150. It uses more fuel at the same RPM, so I tend to burn more fuel than I did before.
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Jamie Wendell
 

Teun, when I do long crossings, I like to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible. As such, I often motor-sail if the wind is not just right. Yes, I carry 900 liters in the tank, but having extra is always a good thing, as I have used almost 900 liters before in one trip.
I can carry an extra 200 liters in jerry cans and/or 200 liters in my bladder tank if needed.
You never can have too much fuel?

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Teun BAAS
 

Hi Ruslan,

 

Yeah – I have been looking at that; there is also one which does 7 gallons per minute.

 

Thanks

 

Best Regards Teun

AMELIT A54 #128

June 29, 2020 16:18:21

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ruslan Osmonov via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 15:57
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

 

Hi, for fuel transfer I recently discovered siphon hoses with shaker primer. Very easy to transfer from jerry can, fast and the most important, you don’t have to lift and pour and wait for it. Not much to break either 🙂 

So far it’s been great. 

 

This is an example of what I’m talking about. 

 

 

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:14 PM Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:

I installed a bi-directional Marco pump in the starboard locker (along with fuel supply connections) so that I could transfer fuel into and out of 20-liter yellow jerry cans. I also have a bladder tank I mount on the aft deck for long passages. I can transfer into and out of it as well.
If anyone is interested I could take a photo or try to draw a diagram. It works very well, and is far, far better than lifting the jugs and pouring them into the tank spout.

By the way, the brushless March pump I am considering "cannibalizing" for the refrigerator pump is attached in a pdf file. We would want only the motor and not the pump, since the pump is centrifugal, and would likely be a problem in the refrigerator service as the boat bounces around, although we could certainly try it.

Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

--

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Ruslan Osmonov
 

Hi, for fuel transfer I recently discovered siphon hoses with shaker primer. Very easy to transfer from jerry can, fast and the most important, you don’t have to lift and pour and wait for it. Not much to break either 🙂 
So far it’s been great. 

This is an example of what I’m talking about. 


On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:14 PM Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:
I installed a bi-directional Marco pump in the starboard locker (along with fuel supply connections) so that I could transfer fuel into and out of 20-liter yellow jerry cans. I also have a bladder tank I mount on the aft deck for long passages. I can transfer into and out of it as well.
If anyone is interested I could take a photo or try to draw a diagram. It works very well, and is far, far better than lifting the jugs and pouring them into the tank spout.

By the way, the brushless March pump I am considering "cannibalizing" for the refrigerator pump is attached in a pdf file. We would want only the motor and not the pump, since the pump is centrifugal, and would likely be a problem in the refrigerator service as the boat bounces around, although we could certainly try it.

Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

--

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Teun BAAS
 

Hi Jamie,

 

Thanks for reply.

 

Have you ever been in a situation you needed more than 700 to 800 liter? We have 900 liter capacity on board but you don’t want to run very low and keep 150/200 liter in the tank and so, I assume, maybe 5 cans on the railing?

 

Best Regards Teun

AMELIT A54 #128

June 29, 2020 15:40:25

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jamie Wendell via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 15:14
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

 

I installed a bi-directional Marco pump in the starboard locker (along with fuel supply connections) so that I could transfer fuel into and out of 20-liter yellow jerry cans. I also have a bladder tank I mount on the aft deck for long passages. I can transfer into and out of it as well.
If anyone is interested I could take a photo or try to draw a diagram. It works very well, and is far, far better than lifting the jugs and pouring them into the tank spout.

By the way, the brushless March pump I am considering "cannibalizing" for the refrigerator pump is attached in a pdf file. We would want only the motor and not the pump, since the pump is centrifugal, and would likely be a problem in the refrigerator service as the boat bounces around, although we could certainly try it.

Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Jamie Wendell
 

I installed a bi-directional Marco pump in the starboard locker (along with fuel supply connections) so that I could transfer fuel into and out of 20-liter yellow jerry cans. I also have a bladder tank I mount on the aft deck for long passages. I can transfer into and out of it as well.
If anyone is interested I could take a photo or try to draw a diagram. It works very well, and is far, far better than lifting the jugs and pouring them into the tank spout.

By the way, the brushless March pump I am considering "cannibalizing" for the refrigerator pump is attached in a pdf file. We would want only the motor and not the pump, since the pump is centrifugal, and would likely be a problem in the refrigerator service as the boat bounces around, although we could certainly try it.

Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Teun BAAS
 

Jamie,

 

Transferring diesel below: from shore and/or other boat to your fuel tank?

 

Best Regards Teun

AMELIT A54 #128

June 29, 2020 15:01:12

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jamie Wendell via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 14:56
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

 

I can echo Scott's comment about the noise generated by the Marco pumps. I use one for transferring diesel fuel in the boat and while it is very good, it is very loud, likely because of the gear-driven pump setup.
I did not know the March pump with a brushless motor was 4mm. Mating that to the 8mm Flojet diaphragm might be a challenge, but I am sure there are adapters out there. Since that motor is already functional without adapters and programming, etc. I think it would be worth a shot if I can locate one for sale. So far, I have not seen any for sale, except maybe through the manufacturer.

There are actually several March pumps that use a brushless DC motor (12 and 24V). Given its higher capacity (and presumably more powerful motor), I was looking at:

BC-2CP-MD 24V DC Brushless Mag Drive Pump

I am currently without any refrigeration while I wait for my new Flojets - all my others have died and I am tired of trips into the engine room with a hammer. I will report as I start trying to get the VESC motor to work.
Stay tuned?
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Jamie Wendell
 

I can echo Scott's comment about the noise generated by the Marco pumps. I use one for transferring diesel fuel in the boat and while it is very good, it is very loud, likely because of the gear-driven pump setup.
I did not know the March pump with a brushless motor was 4mm. Mating that to the 8mm Flojet diaphragm might be a challenge, but I am sure there are adapters out there. Since that motor is already functional without adapters and programming, etc. I think it would be worth a shot if I can locate one for sale. So far, I have not seen any for sale, except maybe through the manufacturer.

There are actually several March pumps that use a brushless DC motor (12 and 24V). Given its higher capacity (and presumably more powerful motor), I was looking at:

BC-2CP-MD 24V DC Brushless Mag Drive Pump

I am currently without any refrigeration while I wait for my new Flojets - all my others have died and I am tired of trips into the engine room with a hammer. I will report as I start trying to get the VESC motor to work.
Stay tuned?
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

Re: New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

Scott SV Tengah
 

Unfortunately Marco has been tried. I have purchased one and so did Thomas on Garulfo (A54). I believe it lasted him less than 3 months and was noisy as hell. He spoke to their engineers and they agreed it's not an effective solution.

Oliver responded to me via email and apparently the brushless motor he used prior eliminated the brush wear problem but then the cheap bearing failed! He is working on a plug and play solution using a more robust pump.

I am also in contact with March Pumps to see if we can find a brushless motor from them that will somehow fit in the Flojet pump head. The huge advantage with the Flojet is that it's quiet and replacement diaphragms are cheap, if/when they fail. 

Jamie - please try to figure out the adapter though. If we can get a 4mm round shaft to work with the Flojet 8mm pump head D-shaped shaft input, we can use a proven March Pump.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com