Date   

Re: Anchor sizing

Teun BAAS
 

Bryce,

 

What price did you get for the 100m CROMOX and where would it be delivered/purchased?

 

Best Regards Teun

A 54 2009 #128

September 13, 2020 13:08:18

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bryce Procter via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 05:29
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Anchor sizing

 

Nice setup there, are you using two 100m lengths of S/S chain there? If so do you find the weight an issue?
Not to mention cost! I just enquired about 100m of Chromox 10mm, makes the anchor look cheap. 

 

Bryce

 

SM 2K # 647


Re: Anchor sizing

Teun BAAS
 

Last paragraph from Arno below is why, after my initial negative reaction, I decided to take the expensive CROMOX option into consideration.

 

Many of my recent (much, much more expensive and not really necessary – as in: new 3rd generation BAMAR furlers while the 2nd generation was working fine; new VOLVO PENTA while existing one could be “fixed”; complete new B&G navigation & radar system while the OEM FURUNO was working fine etc.) changes/”upgrades” were “safety” justified so then why hesitate with a USD7,300 anchor chain????

 

So now I am considering getting the CROMOX for the main anchor and switch the 100 meter galvanized I purchased last year to the secondary anchor; need to research if the additional weight in the bow will be negatively impacting the sailing.

 

Best Regards Teun

 

A54 2009 #128

September 13, 2020 13:02:20

 

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Arno Luijten via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 05:50
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Anchor sizing

 

The chain came with the boat. It is Amel supplied and regrettably only 316L (it is WASI-chain I have just learned) so not suitable for long term anchoring. The main anchor is all chain. The secondary has 15 m chain and whole lot of rode (never checked it in detail).
Cromox is really good and really expensive I agree. On the other hand if you practically live behind you anchor there is a strong case for biting the bullet. It will last much longer then galvanized and behave much nicer in the chain locker. 316L is downright dangerous for full time anchoring. By the time we are able to start doing that we may need to some sacrifices and buy Cromox. For now this works excellent for us.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Mark McGovern
 

Joerg,

I think you ask a great question.   The only information that I have been able to find regarding anything remotely close to answering the question of what actually happens if you keep LiFePO4 batteries at a 100% SOC is from Rod Collins at Compass Marine.  He has been researching, using, experimenting on, and installing LiFePO4 batteries on boats since 2008 both on his personal sailboat and professionally as a marine electrician.  He is also part of the committee that is writing the ABYC safety standard for Li-Ion batteries. His extremely long and detailed treatise on LiFEPO4 batteries in marine systems is here: https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

Below is the excerpt on the two long-term experiments that he has conducted on what happens if you leave LiFePO4 batteries at a 100% SOC for a long period of time:

STORAGE SOC EXPERIMENT: We recently ended a very expensive experiment regarding storage at 100% SOC. The test duration wound up being 12 1/2 months using four 100Ah CALB SE cells where they were charged to 100% SOC and then left to sit idle with no connections to a BMS or other parasitic loads. The low temp recorded over the 12 1/2 months was 46°F and the high temp was 87°F. This test was meant to be a representation of the real wold.
 
A min/max capture thermometer was used to record the peaks. The cells, prior to letting them sit at 100% SOC for 12 1/2 months, were regularly testing at 101.2 to 101.3 Ah’s of capacity (previous 6 Ah capacity tests) as a 12V nominal bank. After 12 1/2 months the cells were discharged to a cut off voltage of 2.9V for the lowest cell. After 12 1/2 months of doing nothing but sitting there, at 100% SOC, the cells had lost 11.6% of their previous rigorously confirmed Ah capacity. Now imagine if you additionally stressed the cells by continually float charging them. Ouch!!!!
 
“The cells lost 11.6% of their confirmed capacity just sitting at 100% SOC”
 
UPDATE: We have now completed a second round of this type of testing with a brand new prismatic cell. The difference was rather dramatic and I have no explanation as to why? The second test we did went for 13 months, under identical testing criteria, and this cell only lost 3.8% of previously verified Ah capacity. While this is quite a bit less capacity loss it still lost capacity.
 
How can LFP cell manufacturers suggest that the mere act of storage, at 100% SOC, is bad for the cells, which we have physically tested and confirmed is degrading them, and then suggest it is okay to float? How can they say “store at 50-60% SOC” yet then give you a “float” voltage?
 
I can sum up my feelings on the cell manufacturers, and their charge voltage guidance, like this:
 
They figured out a great recipe, they can repeatably make the recipe, but they have no idea why it tastes so good.
Once again, I will ask any and all Li-Ion battery researchers or scientists (I know many of you are reading this because I have your emails) to please send me any credible data to suggest a “need” for such high voltage charging guidance for the proposed use as a marine house bank.

I have not found any other source that has conducted a similar experiment and published the results.  If anyone else has, please post a link as I would love to read it.

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


Re: Sharki genoa top furling device blocked

Volker
 

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 08:23 AM, Aras wrote:
Dear Aras,

I tried my very best to show you how the swivel parts fit together. The shaft seals need to be replaced when taking the swivel apart with help of a hydraulic press.
The shaft seals do have the seize 62x85x10 mm.
The problem were was the lower white plastic bearing which needed to be grinded from the inside by 1/10 mm.

I have contacted Amel asking or help but they are not able to support. Neither with a spare part nor by any technical information. It seems that they have no files of the old models any more available.
Not a brilliant service☹️

Regards
Volker
Mickmoon, Sharki, hull 176


locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Arno Luijten
 

Hi Joerg,

Actually these cars do not charge to 100% on daily basis. Other then Tesla you are not allowed the top 5 percent of the charge meaning you can only charge to 95%. Typically Supercharging only goes to 80% to preserve the batteries. Tesla advises to not use the top 10-20% of  the capacity for daily commuting and keep the SOC between 20 and 80%. Off topic : there is some data available that suggests that extensive supercharging affects battery life so that explains the advise of Tesla. Battery warranty is only for 70 or 80% of the capacity so if you loose 19% of the capacity it is on you.

Also cars use a different chemistry (Li-ion instead of LiFePO4)  and are not kept at 100% SOC for extended periods of time. Lithium does not like to be KEPT (as in days or weeks) at 100% but if you start draining shortly after charge the impact is not so great.
The use case for cars is very different from boats. Most people don't stay in their car when not driving, so everything is switched off. No so for a boat. So a car can sit without charging for some time but on your boat (when in use) you are constantly draining the batteries.

Cheers,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Joerg Esdorn
 

The discussion here is always interesting but I wonder about the following.  There are a lot of electric cars out there which are charged to 100% SOC every day, right?  How do their BMS deal with it?  How much of a problem is it really to charge to 100%?  Are we overthinking the issue?   I’ve posted elsewhere on this forum that I Have had installed an all Mastervolt system on my boat recently.  Mastervolt has certified that the installation conforms to their specs but I can’t try it out since I can’t get to the boat in Spain.  Based on the discussion here, I have told the boatyard not to plug the boat into shore power for now - SOC is 85% currently as shown on the MV Easyview Monitor.   I suspect this is unnecessary and will follow up with MV for their official view.   Will let you all know what I hear.   Cheers. Joerg 

A55 Kincsem
Vigo, Spain


Re: Anchor sizing

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

I have on my SM the Spade 200 in seewateraluminium 26 Kg

Works perfekt on the roll an in the water
Elja SM Balu
222


Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Re: Anchor sizing

Rob Hughes
 

 Germain Jean-Pierre. Do you think the 45 will fit on a SM? Also did you need to change the bow roller when you put on your 35 Ultra


Re: Sharki genoa top furling device blocked

Aras Grinius
 

Morning Volker.
I am wondering if you have ideas about storing your dinghy.  We have a Portland Pudgy [hard shell dink].

We abandoned the notion of using a rib.  Just did not seem worth the trouble. . At any rate, There is not enough room in the stern, so foward deck is the only option.  

I'm looking for ideas.


On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 7:56 AM Aras via groups.io <aras.grinius=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Also if you know what bearings and caps I need to order.  
Aras

On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 7:55 AM n33077 <aras.grinius@...> wrote:
Voker,
Can you send some more pictures of the assembly?  I'm curious to see how each piece fits together.  
Aras
Sharki #163 1988

On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 4:42 AM Volker <Puchta@...> wrote:
Problem solved:-)
The ship yard was able to take the swivel apart and to grind the plastic bearings a bit, so that they are turning now smoothly.
The start of the problem was that the previous owner had used mineral oil grease and this caused the plastic bearings to swell. Time over time the swivel starts to turn stiffer and stiffer until it bends the horns and finally blocks.

Volker
Mickmoon, Sharki hull 176



--
Aras Grinius


--
Aras Grinius



--
Aras Grinius


Re: Anchor sizing

Bryce Procter
 

I was looking at doing the same, running the s/s Cromox on the main anchor and a short length of chain to the existing Wasi as the secondary anchor.
Great advice from fellow Amelians as always, thanks guys.

Bryce

SM 2k #467


Re: Anchor sizing

Arno Luijten
 

The chain came with the boat. It is Amel supplied and regrettably only 316L (it is WASI-chain I have just learned) so not suitable for long term anchoring. The main anchor is all chain. The secondary has 15 m chain and whole lot of rode (never checked it in detail).
Cromox is really good and really expensive I agree. On the other hand if you practically live behind you anchor there is a strong case for biting the bullet. It will last much longer then galvanized and behave much nicer in the chain locker. 316L is downright dangerous for full time anchoring. By the time we are able to start doing that we may need to some sacrifices and buy Cromox. For now this works excellent for us.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


Re: Anchor sizing

Bryce Procter
 

Nice setup there, are you using two 100m lengths of S/S chain there? If so do you find the weight an issue?
Not to mention cost! I just enquired about 100m of Chromox 10mm, makes the anchor look cheap. 

Bryce

SM 2K # 647


Re: Anchor sizing

Arno Luijten
 

Bear in mind that most Amel 54s have two anchors on the bow. I never understood the choice of Amel to have a WASI and a Delta as default choices. These two really do not play along very well at the bow. The hoop and the straight shank of the WASI are a poor choice given the shape of the bow-gear.  I have replaced the WASI with a Spade 35kg and also fitted the big Mantus swivels. It fits perfectly now. We don't anchor that much but up to now we've had excellent experiences. You do need to enlarge the hole of the Spade a bit to mount the swivel but a decent round file will do the job.

Cheers,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


Re: Anchor sizing

ngtnewington Newington
 

The problem with the Ultra 45 Kg is that it costs over £3000
Whilst the Galvanised 44 kg Spade runs at £1500.
Having once lost an anchor (in the Galapagos) I believe that to be a factor...
I also believe that if you use 10mm chain you need top quality grade 70 chain rather than 40.
I think that you need to look at the whole arrangement as a system from anchor to chain to windlass to locker.
The Ultra sure is a beauty though...
Nick
Amelia (AML54-019)




On 13 Sep 2020, at 11:04, Matt Salatino via groups.io <helmsmatt@...> wrote:

We have the Ultra 45. Best anchor yet after owning a Rocha and Delta before that. 
And we did have the 42 kn squall at anchor and didn’t budge. 

~~~⛵️~~~Matt A50/#27

On Sep 13, 2020, at 9:48 AM, Bryce Procter via groups.io <Balibryce@...> wrote:

Thanks Randall, the 45 ULTRA was my original choice and after looking at it I'm sure it will get a few grins/smirks on the dock. Though along your line of thought I would rather have the peace of mind and not be wondering/hoping that the anchor holds when that unexpected 40 knot squall comes through while on shore or away. 



Re: Anchor sizing

Matt Salatino
 

We have the Ultra 45. Best anchor yet after owning a Rocha and Delta before that. 
And we did have the 42 kn squall at anchor and didn’t budge. 

~~~⛵️~~~Matt A50/#27

On Sep 13, 2020, at 9:48 AM, Bryce Procter via groups.io <Balibryce@...> wrote:

Thanks Randall, the 45 ULTRA was my original choice and after looking at it I'm sure it will get a few grins/smirks on the dock. Though along your line of thought I would rather have the peace of mind and not be wondering/hoping that the anchor holds when that unexpected 40 knot squall comes through while on shore or away. 



Re: Anchor sizing

Bryce Procter
 

The Ultra appears more common and popular than I had imagined. My only complaint is a relative lack of choices in sizing, 35 to 45 KG is quite a jump. I guess in those times where dropping the anchor in unfavourable conditions and no time to ensure correct setting the additional weight will help ease any anxiety.

Bryce

SM 2K  #467


Re: Anchor sizing

Bryce Procter
 

Cheers Nick,

All pretty much along with my line of thinking. Its not a cheap exercise so good to have confirmation from others i'm on the the right track. 

Bryce

SM 2K #467


Re: Anchor sizing

Germain Jean-Pierre
 

We have a 35kg ultra with the ultra swivel.  As a RTW couple, we anchor 10 to 11 months a year.

To date, we have never dragged anchor... but we are very careful about setting our anchor.  The Ultra is a very good piece of equipment and we can recommend it unconditionally.

A Rocna would also do a good job.

Cheers

Jean-Pierre Germain, SY Eleuthera, SM007, New Zealand


On 13 Sep 2020, at 19:32, Randall <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:



Slight rewording.

If you don't want to ever end up on youtube for the wrong reason, bigger is better. Your Wasi was chosen by Amel as a good size and would do fine. But for peace of mind. the recommended weight by the manufacturer is always one size too small. Go Bigger!!!!
On my 54 the choice for peace of mind is the 45KG/100LB Ultra is the best. But the weight is more important than shine. So the other choices of Rocna, Mantus, Plow, etc. will work fine.

Randall
A54 #56
Gibraltar

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 9:20 AM The Boat <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:
If you don't want to ever end up on youtube for the wrong reason, bigger is better. Your Wasi was chosen by Amel as a good size and would do fine. But for peace of mind. the recommended is always one size too small.
On my 54 the choice for peace of mind is the 45KG/100LB Ultra is the best. But the weight is more important than shine. So the other choices of Rocna, Mantus, Plow will work fine.

Randall
A54 #56
Gibraltar

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 7:49 AM Bryce Procter via groups.io <Balibryce=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
At the risk of opening a hornets nest I am replacing my 30kg Wasi Bugle anchor with one of the newer breed of anchors. My query is not about which brand or shackles or style though rather sizing.
Assuming the following that the boat is usually fully loaded for extended cruising so in the heavier weight range, occasionally left alone at anchor normally for no more than a day or two though in these times anything is possible;100m of chain, varying bottom types, don't intend to carry a dedicated "storm" anchor etc etc. Based on these and the endless other variables does anyone have any advice or thoughts on the best size/weight?
I have seen SM's being swapped out with anywhere from 30kg to 45kg Rocnas, Mantus or other newer style anchors. One piece of advice I read sometime ago was that if the other yachties at the dock aren't laughing at your anchor it's not big enough!
Cheers

Bryce
SM 2K #467


Re: Anchor sizing

ngtnewington Newington
 

On my 54 Amel provided a 33kg Wasi, that I feel is slightly undersized for such a vessel. I also think the WASI, although a good anchor, is now out of date and has limited holding power. On board, when I purchased Amelia, was a 45Kg Delta that was set up as the primary anchor with the Wasi set up on the secondary port roller. 

I then switched them around and found the Wasi, although smaller than the Delta to be better all round than the Delta, although probably due only to it’s very sharp tip. I think the well set Delta would have greater holding power. The Delta however was harder to set. 

I was never happy with either as my main anchor; so after much research I purchased a 37Kg Spade that I am delighted with. Only the other day at anchor in Leros on very good holding, after two days of 25-30kn Meltemi. It was a beast to raise. Even on 1:1 scope It required 1500 RPM to even budge.

For a SM, which is pretty much the same size and weight as the 54 I completely agree 30Kg Wasi is really not big and modern enough for peace of mind.

I would go for either an Ultra or a Spade between 35Kg and 45Kg. My experience with the 37 Kg Spade is that if set in good holding ground it will not budge no matter how hard it blows. This would be over 20% heavier than the original Wasi supplied by Amel and for sure a much better anchor. 

Nick
Amelia (AML 54- 019) stored ashore in Leros.

On 13 Sep 2020, at 08:31, Randall <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:


Slight rewording.

If you don't want to ever end up on youtube for the wrong reason, bigger is better. Your Wasi was chosen by Amel as a good size and would do fine. But for peace of mind. the recommended weight by the manufacturer is always one size too small. Go Bigger!!!!
On my 54 the choice for peace of mind is the 45KG/100LB Ultra is the best. But the weight is more important than shine. So the other choices of Rocna, Mantus, Plow, etc. will work fine.

Randall
A54 #56
Gibraltar

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 9:20 AM The Boat <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:
If you don't want to ever end up on youtube for the wrong reason, bigger is better. Your Wasi was chosen by Amel as a good size and would do fine. But for peace of mind. the recommended is always one size too small.
On my 54 the choice for peace of mind is the 45KG/100LB Ultra is the best. But the weight is more important than shine. So the other choices of Rocna, Mantus, Plow will work fine.

Randall
A54 #56
Gibraltar

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 7:49 AM Bryce Procter via groups.io<Balibryce=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
At the risk of opening a hornets nest I am replacing my 30kg Wasi Bugle anchor with one of the newer breed of anchors. My query is not about which brand or shackles or style though rather sizing.
Assuming the following that the boat is usually fully loaded for extended cruising so in the heavier weight range, occasionally left alone at anchor normally for no more than a day or two though in these times anything is possible;100m of chain, varying bottom types, don't intend to carry a dedicated "storm" anchor etc etc. Based on these and the endless other variables does anyone have any advice or thoughts on the best size/weight?
I have seen SM's being swapped out with anywhere from 30kg to 45kg Rocnas, Mantus or other newer style anchors. One piece of advice I read sometime ago was that if the other yachties at the dock aren't laughing at your anchor it's not big enough!
Cheers

Bryce
SM 2K #467




Re: Anchor sizing

Bryce Procter
 

Thanks Randall, the 45 ULTRA was my original choice and after looking at it I'm sure it will get a few grins/smirks on the dock. Though along your line of thought I would rather have the peace of mind and not be wondering/hoping that the anchor holds when that unexpected 40 knot squall comes through while on shore or away. 


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