Date   

A question about coppercoat

Ian Park
 




Begin forwarded message:

From: Ian Park <sunbeat2@...>
Date: 29 October 2020 at 18:14:18 GMT
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re:  [AmelYachtOwners] A question about coppercoat

Paul,
Confirm what others have said. We usually get a layer of slime in tropical waters, less so in colder northern waters. It comes off easily with a nylon abrasive pad, or with jet wash on a haul out. If you get shell a scraper works very well.
I share Pen Azen’s ages and comments. When you’ve done the anti foul cycle enough times it’s a joy to have a Coppercoat.
PS I think many AMEL owners have often been told its cheating to have all these buttons for furling and reefing the sails - but I’ve done my share of being jet washed on the foredeck and love the comfort of my Santorin (and not having antifoul coloured measles off the paint roller).

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN96 Locked down again North Wales!


Re: Bow Thruster Amps rating.

jlm@jlmertz.fr
 

SM 316 with 8 100Ah battery ...

JLM


Le 30/10/2020 à 06:42, eric freedman a écrit :

Hi Jean Luc,
What model Amel do you have?
Fair Winds,
Eric
Sm 376 Kimberite

On October 30, 2020 at 1:21 AM "jlm@..." <jlm@...> wrote:

On CottonBay I messured in the past the bow thruster curent :

https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/photo/84720/1?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

Jean Luc

CottonBay



Le 29/10/2020 à 21:46, Karen Smith via groups.io a écrit :
Our SM#160 bow thruster draws about 485 Amps when it is running.  The exact power calculation is complicated because the voltage is not steady at 24 volts, but drops quickly, and significantly, under this load.  The reason the wire looks undersized by standard calculations is that it operates on a very short duty cycle, so heating of the wire is minimal.  If you were to try to push 500 Amps through that wire for an hour, you'd have a real problem.  

At least on our boat, the "bow thruster" cable carries all the 24V power to everything forward of the forward saloon bulkhead.  Mast and genoa furlers, cabin lights, nav lights, windlass...

We have fused our battery bank in two different ways, and both worked well. Keep in mind we have a bank of 4 pairs of batteries, smaller than yours which I believe is 6 pairs.  

Our batteries were first fused with four 125 Amp rated battery terminal fuses, one on each 24V positive, for a total of 500 Amps.  With 6 pairs of batteries you'd end up in the about same place with 80 or 90 Amp rated fuses.  When we changed battery brands, the terminal fuse holders no longer fit under the battery box lid, so we switched to a singe 500 AMP ANL-style fuse.  Never have any of these tripped.

We have also reworked the whole 24 volt distribution system so EACH of the wires leaving the battery box has a fuse appropriate to its ampacity, and the switches now interrupt current to everything except the bilge pump circuit.  To me this is a really basic safety issue.  If there was ever to be an electrical fire on the boat, or a piece of runaway equipment, I need to know I can shut off the power to everything without delay.

On the boats I have seen, Amel was very inconsistent about what wires they connected to which side of the main switches. On our boat, only the battery charger, bilge pump, and "always on 12V converter" were connected to the unswitched side. I think on later boats they just ran out of space on the stud on the switched side, so were forced to move wires to the unswitched post. 

Bill Kinney
SM#160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD

 

 


Re: Bow Thruster Amps rating.

eric freedman
 

Hi Jean Luc,
What model Amel do you have?
Fair Winds,
Eric
Sm 376 Kimberite

On October 30, 2020 at 1:21 AM "jlm@..." <jlm@...> wrote:

On CottonBay I messured in the past the bow thruster curent :

https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/photo/84720/1?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

Jean Luc

CottonBay



Le 29/10/2020 à 21:46, Karen Smith via groups.io a écrit :
Our SM#160 bow thruster draws about 485 Amps when it is running.  The exact power calculation is complicated because the voltage is not steady at 24 volts, but drops quickly, and significantly, under this load.  The reason the wire looks undersized by standard calculations is that it operates on a very short duty cycle, so heating of the wire is minimal.  If you were to try to push 500 Amps through that wire for an hour, you'd have a real problem.  

At least on our boat, the "bow thruster" cable carries all the 24V power to everything forward of the forward saloon bulkhead.  Mast and genoa furlers, cabin lights, nav lights, windlass...

We have fused our battery bank in two different ways, and both worked well. Keep in mind we have a bank of 4 pairs of batteries, smaller than yours which I believe is 6 pairs.  

Our batteries were first fused with four 125 Amp rated battery terminal fuses, one on each 24V positive, for a total of 500 Amps.  With 6 pairs of batteries you'd end up in the about same place with 80 or 90 Amp rated fuses.  When we changed battery brands, the terminal fuse holders no longer fit under the battery box lid, so we switched to a singe 500 AMP ANL-style fuse.  Never have any of these tripped.

We have also reworked the whole 24 volt distribution system so EACH of the wires leaving the battery box has a fuse appropriate to its ampacity, and the switches now interrupt current to everything except the bilge pump circuit.  To me this is a really basic safety issue.  If there was ever to be an electrical fire on the boat, or a piece of runaway equipment, I need to know I can shut off the power to everything without delay.

On the boats I have seen, Amel was very inconsistent about what wires they connected to which side of the main switches. On our boat, only the battery charger, bilge pump, and "always on 12V converter" were connected to the unswitched side. I think on later boats they just ran out of space on the stud on the switched side, so were forced to move wires to the unswitched post. 

Bill Kinney
SM#160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD

 

 


Re: Bow Thruster Amps rating.

jlm@jlmertz.fr
 

On CottonBay I messured in the past the bow thruster curent :

https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/photo/84720/1?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

Jean Luc

CottonBay



Le 29/10/2020 à 21:46, Karen Smith via groups.io a écrit :
Our SM#160 bow thruster draws about 485 Amps when it is running.  The exact power calculation is complicated because the voltage is not steady at 24 volts, but drops quickly, and significantly, under this load.  The reason the wire looks undersized by standard calculations is that it operates on a very short duty cycle, so heating of the wire is minimal.  If you were to try to push 500 Amps through that wire for an hour, you'd have a real problem.  

At least on our boat, the "bow thruster" cable carries all the 24V power to everything forward of the forward saloon bulkhead.  Mast and genoa furlers, cabin lights, nav lights, windlass...

We have fused our battery bank in two different ways, and both worked well. Keep in mind we have a bank of 4 pairs of batteries, smaller than yours which I believe is 6 pairs.  

Our batteries were first fused with four 125 Amp rated battery terminal fuses, one on each 24V positive, for a total of 500 Amps.  With 6 pairs of batteries you'd end up in the about same place with 80 or 90 Amp rated fuses.  When we changed battery brands, the terminal fuse holders no longer fit under the battery box lid, so we switched to a singe 500 AMP ANL-style fuse.  Never have any of these tripped.

We have also reworked the whole 24 volt distribution system so EACH of the wires leaving the battery box has a fuse appropriate to its ampacity, and the switches now interrupt current to everything except the bilge pump circuit.  To me this is a really basic safety issue.  If there was ever to be an electrical fire on the boat, or a piece of runaway equipment, I need to know I can shut off the power to everything without delay.

On the boats I have seen, Amel was very inconsistent about what wires they connected to which side of the main switches. On our boat, only the battery charger, bilge pump, and "always on 12V converter" were connected to the unswitched side. I think on later boats they just ran out of space on the stud on the switched side, so were forced to move wires to the unswitched post. 

Bill Kinney
SM#160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD


Re: Bow Thruster Amps rating.

Karen Smith
 

Our SM#160 bow thruster draws about 485 Amps when it is running.  The exact power calculation is complicated because the voltage is not steady at 24 volts, but drops quickly, and significantly, under this load.  The reason the wire looks undersized by standard calculations is that it operates on a very short duty cycle, so heating of the wire is minimal.  If you were to try to push 500 Amps through that wire for an hour, you'd have a real problem.  

At least on our boat, the "bow thruster" cable carries all the 24V power to everything forward of the forward saloon bulkhead.  Mast and genoa furlers, cabin lights, nav lights, windlass...

We have fused our battery bank in two different ways, and both worked well. Keep in mind we have a bank of 4 pairs of batteries, smaller than yours which I believe is 6 pairs.  

Our batteries were first fused with four 125 Amp rated battery terminal fuses, one on each 24V positive, for a total of 500 Amps.  With 6 pairs of batteries you'd end up in the about same place with 80 or 90 Amp rated fuses.  When we changed battery brands, the terminal fuse holders no longer fit under the battery box lid, so we switched to a singe 500 AMP ANL-style fuse.  Never have any of these tripped.

We have also reworked the whole 24 volt distribution system so EACH of the wires leaving the battery box has a fuse appropriate to its ampacity, and the switches now interrupt current to everything except the bilge pump circuit.  To me this is a really basic safety issue.  If there was ever to be an electrical fire on the boat, or a piece of runaway equipment, I need to know I can shut off the power to everything without delay.

On the boats I have seen, Amel was very inconsistent about what wires they connected to which side of the main switches. On our boat, only the battery charger, bilge pump, and "always on 12V converter" were connected to the unswitched side. I think on later boats they just ran out of space on the stud on the switched side, so were forced to move wires to the unswitched post. 

Bill Kinney
SM#160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD


Re: Main Furler - Sail stuck / jammed

Santorin LO
 

Agree - but this mainly apply to no normal furl / unfurl under normal circumstances. this must be the reason that in 10 years never had this issue before...


Re: Main Furler - Sail stuck / jammed

Santorin LO
 

Thanks again Bill (and Matt) - your way seem to be the one as well as your observation re the problem description, the one thing I am very confident about, is that if your way doesn't work and you wouldn't be able to suggest another way - no one will...


Re: Main Furler - Sail stuck / jammed

ngtnewington Newington
 

The trick I have found is to make sure there is plenty of outhaul tension. It needs to be tightly rolled in and out, always keeping the outhaul as tight as possible. Keeping a really good eye on it even when it is calm.
I have also found that there needs to be loads of downward tension on the leech. 
On my 54 I use kicker tension in addition to sheet and track to keep that leech tension tight. 
If for a moment I do not pay close attention then a jam ensues.
Ironically the stronger the wind the less likely a jam. Maybe it is the concentration of the mind rather than anything else.

Nick
Amelia
Amel54 -019
Leros Gr




On 29 Oct 2020, at 20:13, Matt Salatino via groups.io <helmsmatt@...> wrote:

We furled too loosely and jammed once. We got ours loose the same way. Back and forth, tighten the furler, tighten the outhaul, loosen a bit, then repeat... a lot.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Oct 29, 2020, at 2:04 PM, Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1@...> wrote:

Start by furling as tightly as possible then streach the out haul loosen and repeat 


On Oct 29, 2020, at 2:00 PM, Ian Park <parkianj@...> wrote:

Do as Bill says and use the winch handle, but on my previous boat (not AMEL) the furling main jammed a few times - usually when rolled too loosely. I found it helped to pull downwards hard on the leach of the sail. You may need to release or slacken the short rope on the clew first. It may help too if someone can reach up and push the sail/foil inwards (away from the mast slot). Good luck.


Re: Main Furler - Sail stuck / jammed

Matt Salatino
 

We furled too loosely and jammed once. We got ours loose the same way. Back and forth, tighten the furler, tighten the outhaul, loosen a bit, then repeat... a lot.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Oct 29, 2020, at 2:04 PM, Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1@...> wrote:

Start by furling as tightly as possible then streach the out haul loosen and repeat 


On Oct 29, 2020, at 2:00 PM, Ian Park <parkianj@...> wrote:

Do as Bill says and use the winch handle, but on my previous boat (not AMEL) the furling main jammed a few times - usually when rolled too loosely. I found it helped to pull downwards hard on the leach of the sail. You may need to release or slacken the short rope on the clew first. It may help too if someone can reach up and push the sail/foil inwards (away from the mast slot). Good luck.


Re: Bow Thruster Amps rating.

eric freedman
 

The bow thruster is If I recall correctly is 10 HP. 10 hp x 746 watts is 7460 watts without any loss .I would add at east 10% for that, 8200 watts/24=342 amps.
That would be dismissing and loss in the feed to the motor. If you look at the motor you will see multiple heavy gauge wires going to the motor.
Fair Winds
Eric

On October 29, 2020 at 2:38 PM Philippe Belloir <pbelloir@...> wrote:

It s forbidden to violat W=VxA, :-) so you have to make a deal with 7000 and/or 510. I guess 24 is right.
Possible you can see W on the motor ?



Philippe Belloir  
+33 781 709 791


-------- Message d'origine --------
De : Chris Doucette <amaroksailing@...>
Date : 29/10/2020 19:23 (GMT+01:00)
À : "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Group Moderators" <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Objet : [AmelYachtOwners] Bow Thruster Amps rating.


Hi- maybe someone can help me understand... The Super Maramu 2k Manual shows that the bow thruster draws 7000W and 510A at 24V.  Is this correct?  If so, how does the math work out?  W=VxA is violated AND no reasonable wire size is rated for that 24v DC..\

 I am trying to properly fuse my battery bank and this beast is the crux.

Chris 
SV Amarok 285

 

 


Re: Bow Thruster Amps rating.

 

Chris,

We shouldn't get into a discussion of what is right or wrong, but rather work to help you. Maybe the math is French math or Texan math, but it will draw as much as around 500 amps. Additionally, the bow thruster wire from the battery switch to the bow thruster is connected to the battery side of the switch. 

You might consider a batter terminal fuse for each battery. That would be my suggestion. In addition, you might also consider a 500 amp time-delay fuse located near the bus bar located near the bow thruster at the termination of the wire from the battery switch.
image.png

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 1:23 PM Chris Doucette <amaroksailing@...> wrote:

Hi- maybe someone can help me understand... The Super Maramu 2k Manual shows that the bow thruster draws 7000W and 510A at 24V.  Is this correct?  If so, how does the math work out?  W=VxA is violated AND no reasonable wire size is rated for that 24v DC..\

 I am trying to properly fuse my battery bank and this beast is the crux.

Chris 
SV Amarok 285


Re: Bow Thruster Amps rating.

Philippe Belloir
 

It s forbidden to violat W=VxA, :-) so you have to make a deal with 7000 and/or 510. I guess 24 is right.
Possible you can see W on the motor ?



Philippe Belloir  
+33 781 709 791


-------- Message d'origine --------
De : Chris Doucette <amaroksailing@...>
Date : 29/10/2020 19:23 (GMT+01:00)
À : "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Group Moderators" <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Objet : [AmelYachtOwners] Bow Thruster Amps rating.


Hi- maybe someone can help me understand... The Super Maramu 2k Manual shows that the bow thruster draws 7000W and 510A at 24V.  Is this correct?  If so, how does the math work out?  W=VxA is violated AND no reasonable wire size is rated for that 24v DC..\

 I am trying to properly fuse my battery bank and this beast is the crux.

Chris 
SV Amarok 285


Bow Thruster Amps rating.

Chris Doucette
 


Hi- maybe someone can help me understand... The Super Maramu 2k Manual shows that the bow thruster draws 7000W and 510A at 24V.  Is this correct?  If so, how does the math work out?  W=VxA is violated AND no reasonable wire size is rated for that 24v DC..\

 I am trying to properly fuse my battery bank and this beast is the crux.

Chris 
SV Amarok 285


Re: Main Furler - Sail stuck / jammed

Santorin LO
 

Thank You Bill, Ian and Courtney,

Tried all already, except of releasing the gear and try manually - will give it a go tomorrow morning and will update.


Re: Main Furler - Sail stuck / jammed

 

You have a problem that probably includes the sail twisted backwards on the foil. The guy might be a good electrician, but keep him off the boat. 

Drop the motor and gearbox about 30mm by loosening the 4 bolts  Untie the mainsail from the outhaul. While pulling on the clew of the mainsail, use a winch handle in the manual furler turning a little clockwise and anticlockwise until you have all of the sail unfurled. You may have to go up the mast to pull the sail out. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 12:55 PM Santorin LO via groups.io <santorinlo18=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Bill,

The motor is ok, and operational. the sail was opened with NO out hauling, and then closed again and then opened again by the electrician ALL within the mast without out hauling - what caused the sail now to be 'messy folded' in the mast.


Re: Main Furler - Sail stuck / jammed

Courtney Gorman
 

Start by furling as tightly as possible then streach the out haul loosen and repeat 


On Oct 29, 2020, at 2:00 PM, Ian Park <parkianj@...> wrote:

Do as Bill says and use the winch handle, but on my previous boat (not AMEL) the furling main jammed a few times - usually when rolled too loosely. I found it helped to pull downwards hard on the leach of the sail. You may need to release or slacken the short rope on the clew first. It may help too if someone can reach up and push the sail/foil inwards (away from the mast slot). Good luck.


Re: Main Furler - Sail stuck / jammed

Ian Park
 

Do as Bill says and use the winch handle, but on my previous boat (not AMEL) the furling main jammed a few times - usually when rolled too loosely. I found it helped to pull downwards hard on the leach of the sail. You may need to release or slacken the short rope on the clew first. It may help too if someone can reach up and push the sail/foil inwards (away from the mast slot). Good luck.


Re: Main Furler - Sail stuck / jammed

Santorin LO
 

Hi Bill,

The motor is ok, and operational. the sail was opened with NO out hauling, and then closed again and then opened again by the electrician ALL within the mast without out hauling - what caused the sail now to be 'messy folded' in the mast.


Re: Main Furler - Sail stuck / jammed

 

Is it stuck, or is there a blown circuit breaker?

If stuck, the furling foil can be released from the motor gearbox:
image.png
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 12:26 PM Santorin LO via groups.io <santorinlo18=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Group,

When left the electrician for few mins to go through the main control panel (above the steering) in order to reinforce, clean up and do the contacts - he was playing too much with the main fuller button - from here I believe you can guess what happened...

Right now the sail is well stuck can't move in or out (closed position). Do anyone has an idea how to release?

It happened to me once previously but was 50% out so was able to shake the boom, then in / out few attempts and released. This time seem to be much more complicated.

Please any 


Main Furler - Sail stuck / jammed

Santorin LO
 

Hi Group,

When left the electrician for few mins to go through the main control panel (above the steering) in order to reinforce, clean up and do the contacts - he was playing too much with the main fuller button - from here I believe you can guess what happened...

Right now the sail is well stuck can't move in or out (closed position). Do anyone has an idea how to release?

It happened to me once previously but was 50% out so was able to shake the boom, then in / out few attempts and released. This time seem to be much more complicated.

Please any 

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