Date   

Re: Lithium Batteries under Consideration

Dean Gillies
 

Well that bursts the bubble of having batteries that are more capable than AGM at lower SOC for half the price of LFP AND don't cause the A54 to list more to port.
I can't believe my thought pattern at the moment, but if I could buy Lithium batteries that were as heavy as AGM's then my change to Lithium would be a fait-accompli.

I just don't like the thought of the boat listing even more to port!

Dean
SV Stella A54-154


Re: Lithium Batteries under Consideration

Jamie Wendell
 

Well I guess I should chime in here, so to speak. I installed Fireflys in my A54 a few years ago. They lasted about 3 years before the voltage drop started to cause problems for me. They were promoted as being "almost" as good as Lithiums for about half the price, so I thought why not.
I cannot say why they failed, but as we were yanking them out of the boat, we load tested all of them just to see how they had held up, thinking maybe 1 or 2 had simply died. Almost all of them showed significant degradation. I was able to salvage a couple of them to serve as starter batteries, but I was not a happy camper. I do have a very heavy electrical load. Perhaps the 12-volt in series configuration is not compatible unless you deliberately balance them out periodically. With 24-volt Lithiums, that is no longer a concern.

Despite the expense (2 times the Firefly technology), I am convinced that LiFePO4 is the way to go if you are looking for long-term serviceability. They hold their voltage levels even with extended bow thruster use, and I never get low-voltage alarms on my Maretron N2K bus any more. I used to get them all the time after the first year and had to wake up in the mornings to start the generator to quell the alarm. I had the alarm set to go off if the voltage dropped below 24 volts.

Sorry to put a bummer into the carbon-foam technology, as some may have had a good experience given the "better mousetrap approach," but they still are based on lead construction. I expect in the future LiFePO4 or some derivative will become the norm for our Amels.

Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44


Re: Lithium Batteries under Consideration

michael winand
 

Hi Scott,  would you suggest that the firefly batteries are worse than other lead batteries regarding their voltage drop curve?
I would think that the state of change would have been important to know. 
Thanks  Michael  Nebo sm251 



On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 at 2:23 am, Scott from SV Tengah
<Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
Arno,

I think it would be best if Jamie could chime in. He replaced his Fireflies precisely because he experienced severe voltage drop under load, one of the "hidden" downsides of carbon foam. As always, there could have been other confounding factors. That said, I would be careful trusting specs. The Victron Battery Protect should have worked fine on my system but instead melted within a day. 

Regarding gen usage during BT, I spent about a year diagnosing and fixing my BT, so learned a bit more than I ever wanted to know. My understanding is an Amel54 owner experienced a solenoid that melted closed because ohm's law tells us that when voltage drops, amps have to increase to compensate. That owner spun like a top in the marina. That's why Amel suggested that I install an emergency stop switch.  My understanding is that repeated use (think 30 knots on the beam in a tricky marina) will result in cumulative voltage drops so the genset/charger is supposed to help the batteries recover a bit between uses, not replace the batteries.

I considered carbon foam as a cheaper, easier upgrade than lifepo4, but decided against them for the voltage drop issues. 
If you look at the firely SOC vs. voltage curves, you will see that the main benefit of being able to deeply discharge and also not fully recharge is negated by the fact that voltage drops to unacceptable levels at low SOC.

Here's another guy who took the baby step and then ended up going all the way. That said, I understand your use case is primarily marina life, so in your case, I would not get lithium either. Just wanted to make the info available to people who live full time off the grid who think Fireflies are lithium like:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/firefly-oasis-voltage-sag-225444.html#post3002627

Perhaps you will have better success with respect to voltage drops than others who have tried. 



--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Lithium Batteries under Consideration

Scott SV Tengah
 

Arno,

I think it would be best if Jamie could chime in. He replaced his Fireflies precisely because he experienced severe voltage drop under load, one of the "hidden" downsides of carbon foam. As always, there could have been other confounding factors. That said, I would be careful trusting specs. The Victron Battery Protect should have worked fine on my system but instead melted within a day. 

Regarding gen usage during BT, I spent about a year diagnosing and fixing my BT, so learned a bit more than I ever wanted to know. My understanding is an Amel54 owner experienced a solenoid that melted closed because ohm's law tells us that when voltage drops, amps have to increase to compensate. That owner spun like a top in the marina. That's why Amel suggested that I install an emergency stop switch.  My understanding is that repeated use (think 30 knots on the beam in a tricky marina) will result in cumulative voltage drops so the genset/charger is supposed to help the batteries recover a bit between uses, not replace the batteries.

I considered carbon foam as a cheaper, easier upgrade than lifepo4, but decided against them for the voltage drop issues. 
If you look at the firely SOC vs. voltage curves, you will see that the main benefit of being able to deeply discharge and also not fully recharge is negated by the fact that voltage drops to unacceptable levels at low SOC.

Here's another guy who took the baby step and then ended up going all the way. That said, I understand your use case is primarily marina life, so in your case, I would not get lithium either. Just wanted to make the info available to people who live full time off the grid who think Fireflies are lithium like:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/firefly-oasis-voltage-sag-225444.html#post3002627

Perhaps you will have better success with respect to voltage drops than others who have tried. 



--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel original hard antifouling?

 

Scott,

I don't believe anyone can answer that except the person who owned her when it was applied. Possibly it is pealing because a primer was required between the new and the old. I gave you my experience which was Micron 66 on top of Micron 66, but the top layer had been seriously thinned during the application.

Good luck!

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 11:40 PM Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
Bill, 

I guess I should have been more clear with my original question. 

I already have micron antifoul on hand but it seems the existing paint is peeling back to what appears to be a hard antifoul. As such I want to get some idea of what this hard antifoul might be to make sure it's compatible. 

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: A few questions while on the hard... SM23

Patrick McAneny
 

Mike, My boat is on the hard as well and I just filled the sonic hole with epoxy filler yesterday . I am not aware of any service required on the rudder hinges. You need to remove the third oil seal, there are many posts in the archives covering the installation of the oil seals . You should probably have a long look at the files and photos sections on the Amel site ,every subject concerning servicing every part of the SM has been covered ,and will answer many of  your questions. If not never hesitate to ask to group, there is hundreds of very knowledgeable owners more than willing to help you solve any issue you may have. 
Good Luck,
Pat
SM Shenanigans #123


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy) <svtrilogy53@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Nov 22, 2020 7:16 pm
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] A few questions while on the hard... SM23

Hello everyone! Our 1990 SM#23 is on the hard and we are tackling some maintenance items for the first time. Naturally, a few questions have come up that I would like to ask the group.

1. Does the rudder hinge require any service or greasing while hauled out? There are two stainless screws on the middle hinge, anything to do there or just make sure they are tight?
 
2. I removed the plug on the sonic speed transducer on the keel. It revealed what looks like a crack right above the transducer (photo attached). Should this whole void just get epoxy filled? The sonic speed is not working and we have no intention of getting it working. No water is making it into the hull as far as I can tell.
 
3. We are servicing the C-drive shaft seals and wear bushing for the first time since taking ownership. After removing the bushing and two seals, we find a third, smaller seal that is very deep and perhaps sealed in place. This is the older aluminum C-drive unit, but I'm not sure this seal placement is Amel original. Has anyone else with an older SM seen this? Any advice or suggestions? I was under the impression I should be able to look into the C-drive after removing the wear bushing and the seals that ride on it.
 
Cheers,
Mike Longcor
SV Trilogy SM#23
Opua, NZ
 


Re: Lithium Batteries under Consideration

Arno Luijten
 

Hi Scott,

According to the specs the CCA for the Firefly is 720 Amp. So the BT should be fine having 5*720=3600 startup amps available.
I don’t buy this generator story as your 100 amp battery charger cannot respond quick enough for the solenoid to make a difference. And besides it can only supply 100 amp where the startup current for the BT is probably closer to 1000 amp.
When running the BT takes about 450 Amp,, about 80 amp per battery. If your batteries cannot supply that, you need to replace them anyway...

Cheers,

Arno
SV Luna
A54-121


Re: SM 2000 autopilot

Germain Jean-Pierre
 

Hi Rob,

Disregard the mess... tiny leak now fixed. 

Start with a ss base plate with the bolts welded onto it as per the hydraulic ram base plate. Epoxy the plate to the hull; build up grp layers as shown. 

Remove the bell rank and design a lower L shape lip   Attach the business end of the ram. Install the pump somewhere convenient 

Sorry for the delay

Jean-Pierre Germain, Eleuthera, SM007, NZ






On 20/11/2020, at 10:40 AM, Rob Smith <robfromcornwall.1966@...> wrote:


Thanks for the speedy reply. Some photos would be great. 


On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, 21:38 Germain Jean-Pierre, <jp.germain45@...> wrote:
Hi Rob,

I installed a Raymarine ACP 400 with hydraulic drive through Lecomte & Schmidt hydraulic rams. Works superbly and has been my primary AP for the last 5 years. My 7000 is a backup only. Hydraulic is far smoother. 

One small limitation... due to restrictions of space, the rams only give 22 degrees steering angle to bot P & S. In reality, had no effect on operations. 

I can perhaps send photos...

Jean-Pierre Germain, Eleuthera, SM007, NZ



On 20/11/2020, at 10:05 AM, Rob Smith <robfromcornwall.1966@...> wrote:


Hello I am somebody can help me, I have a Sm #152 and I would like to fit another autopilot directly onto the quadrant. Can anybody help with this? I'd like to know what systems are used on the SM2000.

Regards

Rob Smith
S/Y FORESIGHT 
SM #152


Re: Lithium Batteries under Consideration

Scott SV Tengah
 

To continue the thread drift 😇, perhaps Jamie on phantom can chime in about his experience with carbon foam. 

He had fireflies before I think and experienced severe voltage drops under load to the point where his fridges started failing. 

I'd be a bit concerned about using the bow thruster with a battery that experienced severe voltage drop under load. I guess you could just run the generator when using the bt as amel recommended to avoid melting your solenoids.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel original hard antifouling?

Scott SV Tengah
 

Bill, 

I guess I should have been more clear with my original question. 

I already have micron antifoul on hand but it seems the existing paint is peeling back to what appears to be a hard antifoul. As such I want to get some idea of what this hard antifoul might be to make sure it's compatible. 

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


A few questions while on the hard... SM23

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Hello everyone! Our 1990 SM#23 is on the hard and we are tackling some maintenance items for the first time. Naturally, a few questions have come up that I would like to ask the group.

1. Does the rudder hinge require any service or greasing while hauled out? There are two stainless screws on the middle hinge, anything to do there or just make sure they are tight?
 
2. I removed the plug on the sonic speed transducer on the keel. It revealed what looks like a crack right above the transducer (photo attached). Should this whole void just get epoxy filled? The sonic speed is not working and we have no intention of getting it working. No water is making it into the hull as far as I can tell.
 
3. We are servicing the C-drive shaft seals and wear bushing for the first time since taking ownership. After removing the bushing and two seals, we find a third, smaller seal that is very deep and perhaps sealed in place. This is the older aluminum C-drive unit, but I'm not sure this seal placement is Amel original. Has anyone else with an older SM seen this? Any advice or suggestions? I was under the impression I should be able to look into the C-drive after removing the wear bushing and the seals that ride on it.
 
Cheers,
Mike Longcor
SV Trilogy SM#23
Opua, NZ
 


Re: Lithium Batteries under Consideration

Arno Luijten
 

Hi Randall,

I'm not exactly sure but I think the current price-point is around USD 400 each and you would need 10 in total to get similar capacity as for 12 AGMs. The weight of these batteries is slightly higher so putting in 12 may give problems with the boat listing to starboard. As the usable capacity per battery is higher then for AGM, I will order 10 pieces to replace my failing AGM set. I'm also planning to replace the starter battery with one of these batteries as a sort of spare battery. In case one fails I have a spare as starter batteries are much more easy to obtain. So in total I'm ordering 11 pieces.

Regards,

Arno Luijten


Re: Replacing standing rigging - advice for other jobs?

Mark McGovern
 

Trey,

Congratulations on the purchase and welcome to the Amel cult family!  I'm replacing my rigging this winter as well and I am strongly considering taking the masts down to replace it so I have been giving this topic some thought.  Things I'm considering doing include:

  • Inspect/replace the halyard sheaves 
  • Servicing the Genoa Furler
  • Servicing the Forestay/Main/Mizzen Swivels
  • Replacing the Steaming Light/Deck Light
  • Inspecting/Cleaning connections on the B&G Masthead Unit 
  • Replacing cables
  • Replacing any cable ties (Amel apparently used string originally but contractors don't and UV kills them quickly)
  • Thoroughly cleaning and polishing mast and spreaders
There's a decent thread on this topic here that likely has a few more suggestions:  https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/topic/32278124#47610

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


Re: Onan 11kw white smoke on running

Billy Newport
 

To finish the thread. We replaced the fuel filter, replaced raw water pump (ebay 320 bucks), changed the oil. No white smoke. We suspect the oil was overfilled on last change and that caused the white smoke. The oil level was maybe 2 to 3mm past max in dip stick.


Re: Replacing standing rigging - advice for other jobs?

Matt Salatino
 

Typically, the grounding shield corrodes, as moisture permeates the insulation. Also the end fitting that connects to the antenna at the top of the mast, corrodes.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt
Speed of Life
A50 #27

On Nov 21, 2020, at 3:52 PM, Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> wrote:

I am replacing mine within the next couple of weeks as I replace the entire VHF.

 

Out of curiosity, what causes the VHF coax to fail?

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 9:13 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Replacing standing rigging - advice for other jobs?

 

Trey,

 

The VHF coax cable in the mainmast is good for 10-20 years. Maybe now is a good time. Choose a high-quality low-loss coax if you do this.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 

 

View My Training Calendar

 

 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:08 PM Trey Cobb <tcobb775@...> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm the new caretaker of Balthazar (A54-102). Due to a fracture on the main sail foil, it is being replaced and I'm taking the opportunity to also replace the original mainsail. In the process of taking down the mast, a crack was found in the original standing rigging so we've decided the timing is good to have it all replaced as well.

Since the boat is hauled out and the mast is down, are there any other preventative maintenance jobs I should consider? I am replacing the main mast sole. Anything else you wish you had done when having your own rigging replaced?

Thanks,
Trey Cobb.


Re: Replacing standing rigging - advice for other jobs?

 

Mark,

I do not know what causes the VHF coax cable failure but I suspect as in all things boating, that salt, moisture, and corrosion increase resistance in the wiring. My understanding of VHF cable failure is that it is usually a slow process and that you lose signal strength over a long period of time, probably not noticing it until it is really poor.

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 3:04 PM Matt Salatino via groups.io <helmsmatt=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Make sure to get an antenna cable with tinned copper shielding. Non tinned shielding turns to dust in a few years.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Nov 21, 2020, at 2:13 PM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Trey,

The VHF coax cable in the mainmast is good for 10-20 years. Maybe now is a good time. Choose a high-quality low-loss coax if you do this.
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:08 PM Trey Cobb <tcobb775@...> wrote:
Hi all,

I'm the new caretaker of Balthazar (A54-102). Due to a fracture on the main sail foil, it is being replaced and I'm taking the opportunity to also replace the original mainsail. In the process of taking down the mast, a crack was found in the original standing rigging so we've decided the timing is good to have it all replaced as well.

Since the boat is hauled out and the mast is down, are there any other preventative maintenance jobs I should consider? I am replacing the main mast sole. Anything else you wish you had done when having your own rigging replaced?

Thanks,
Trey Cobb.


Re: Replacing standing rigging - advice for other jobs?

Matt Salatino
 

Make sure to get an antenna cable with tinned copper shielding. Non tinned shielding turns to dust in a few years.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Nov 21, 2020, at 2:13 PM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Trey,

The VHF coax cable in the mainmast is good for 10-20 years. Maybe now is a good time. Choose a high-quality low-loss coax if you do this.
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:08 PM Trey Cobb <tcobb775@...> wrote:
Hi all,

I'm the new caretaker of Balthazar (A54-102). Due to a fracture on the main sail foil, it is being replaced and I'm taking the opportunity to also replace the original mainsail. In the process of taking down the mast, a crack was found in the original standing rigging so we've decided the timing is good to have it all replaced as well.

Since the boat is hauled out and the mast is down, are there any other preventative maintenance jobs I should consider? I am replacing the main mast sole. Anything else you wish you had done when having your own rigging replaced?

Thanks,
Trey Cobb.


Re: Replacing standing rigging - advice for other jobs?

Mark Erdos
 

I am replacing mine within the next couple of weeks as I replace the entire VHF.

 

Out of curiosity, what causes the VHF coax to fail?

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 9:13 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Replacing standing rigging - advice for other jobs?

 

Trey,

 

The VHF coax cable in the mainmast is good for 10-20 years. Maybe now is a good time. Choose a high-quality low-loss coax if you do this.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 

 

View My Training Calendar

 

 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:08 PM Trey Cobb <tcobb775@...> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm the new caretaker of Balthazar (A54-102). Due to a fracture on the main sail foil, it is being replaced and I'm taking the opportunity to also replace the original mainsail. In the process of taking down the mast, a crack was found in the original standing rigging so we've decided the timing is good to have it all replaced as well.

Since the boat is hauled out and the mast is down, are there any other preventative maintenance jobs I should consider? I am replacing the main mast sole. Anything else you wish you had done when having your own rigging replaced?

Thanks,
Trey Cobb.


Re: Replacing standing rigging - advice for other jobs?

 

Trey,

The VHF coax cable in the mainmast is good for 10-20 years. Maybe now is a good time. Choose a high-quality low-loss coax if you do this.
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:08 PM Trey Cobb <tcobb775@...> wrote:
Hi all,

I'm the new caretaker of Balthazar (A54-102). Due to a fracture on the main sail foil, it is being replaced and I'm taking the opportunity to also replace the original mainsail. In the process of taking down the mast, a crack was found in the original standing rigging so we've decided the timing is good to have it all replaced as well.

Since the boat is hauled out and the mast is down, are there any other preventative maintenance jobs I should consider? I am replacing the main mast sole. Anything else you wish you had done when having your own rigging replaced?

Thanks,
Trey Cobb.


Replacing standing rigging - advice for other jobs?

Trey Cobb
 

Hi all,

I'm the new caretaker of Balthazar (A54-102). Due to a fracture on the main sail foil, it is being replaced and I'm taking the opportunity to also replace the original mainsail. In the process of taking down the mast, a crack was found in the original standing rigging so we've decided the timing is good to have it all replaced as well.

Since the boat is hauled out and the mast is down, are there any other preventative maintenance jobs I should consider? I am replacing the main mast sole. Anything else you wish you had done when having your own rigging replaced?

Thanks,
Trey Cobb.

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