Date   

Re: Climma Air Conditioning from shore power

Thomas Peacock
 

I totally defer to Mark on this. 
But, I would add that the automatic transfer switch (in the port cockpit locker) was severely corroded on my SM a couple of years ago.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay

On Feb 3, 2021, at 5:45 PM, Mark McGovern <mfmcgovern@...> wrote:



Peter,

The circuit breaker that is tripping is an RCD or Residual Current Device.  It trips when it detects a even a minute difference between the current in the (normally) Hot leg and the current in the (normally) Neutral return.  In a properly functioning AC electrical circuit, the current would be the same in the Hot and Neutral return.  If the Hot was somehow shorted to ground at the appliance (like to the appliance case) the current would be returned to the source via the Ground wire instead of the Neutral wire. The RCD breaker would trip when it detected that the current in the HOT wire was NOT returning to the source via the Neutral wire.

Obviously, you no longer have a Neutral return but I am fairly certain that the RCD still works with two Hot legs.  So assuming your RCD is working properly, then it appears that you have more current on one Hot leg then you have on the other WHEN ON SHORE POWER ONLY.  Given that your voltage readings were the same, that would mean that the resistance of one Hot leg is higher than the other.  In my experience, the most likely cause of higher resistance in a circuit like this is usually a bad "mechanical" electrical connection.  Think bad crimp or a loose screw terminal.

Given that everything works fine when you are running on the Generator, I would be looking at every "mechanical" electrical connection in the Shore Power wiring including:
  • Wire Connections inside the Automatic Transfer Switch
  • Wire Connections at Shore Power Plug
If everything looks OK, I would probably try to bypass the Automatic Transfer Switch and see what happens.

Usual disclaimer that I am NOT a marine electrician and I do not even play one on TV!  Good luck.

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA

--
Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


Re: Climma Air Conditioning from shore power

Mark McGovern
 

Peter,

The circuit breaker that is tripping is an RCD or Residual Current Device.  It trips when it detects a even a minute difference between the current in the (normally) Hot leg and the current in the (normally) Neutral return.  In a properly functioning AC electrical circuit, the current would be the same in the Hot and Neutral return.  If the Hot was somehow shorted to ground at the appliance (like to the appliance case) the current would be returned to the source via the Ground wire instead of the Neutral wire. The RCD breaker would trip when it detected that the current in the HOT wire was NOT returning to the source via the Neutral wire.

Obviously, you no longer have a Neutral return but I am fairly certain that the RCD still works with two Hot legs.  So assuming your RCD is working properly, then it appears that you have more current on one Hot leg then you have on the other WHEN ON SHORE POWER ONLY.  Given that your voltage readings were the same, that would mean that the resistance of one Hot leg is higher than the other.  In my experience, the most likely cause of higher resistance in a circuit like this is usually a bad "mechanical" electrical connection.  Think bad crimp or a loose screw terminal.

Given that everything works fine when you are running on the Generator, I would be looking at every "mechanical" electrical connection in the Shore Power wiring including:
  • Wire Connections inside the Automatic Transfer Switch
  • Wire Connections at Shore Power Plug
If everything looks OK, I would probably try to bypass the Automatic Transfer Switch and see what happens.

Usual disclaimer that I am NOT a marine electrician and I do not even play one on TV!  Good luck.

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


Re: Yanmar no start.

Mark Erdos
 

Dan,

 

This sounds very typical of a stuck stop solenoid.

 

To check. Have someone at the helm push the stop button while you can observe the solenoid and lever on the engine. You should see the stop lever move as the solenoid is activated by the stop button at the panel.

 

To all: if you do not already have this in place it is a good idea to attached a red string (and red handle) for use as a manual stop.

 

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dan Carlson
Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 9:03 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Yanmar no start.

 

Hello Yanmar diesel gurus.

 

Our Yanmar 4Jh3-HTE has never missed a beat, until today.

 

Engine started fine and operated for 30-40 mins to lift anchor exit anchorage and get underway. Mostly at 1200-1500rpm.  Normal shutdown, with a short rev to approx 2500rmp before return to idle for a minute or two then shutdown.  Temp and oil pressure all normal.

 

After approx 1 hr sail to next anchorage engine started fine and operated at approx 1500 rpm for 15 minutes into anchorage then idling while anchoring for approx 5 mins, 1200-1300rpm to back down anchor, then after a short idle another rev to approx 2800 rpm then return to idle. When the engine rpms returned to idle the engine just stopped.  After thinking through everything that just happened I attempted to restart the engine and it did not catch after approx 3-5 seconds of cranking.  

 

We had lunch and allowed the engine to cool for a little over an hour. I checked coolent level, oil level, fuel in racor, looked over the engine and then attempted to start with no luck.  Next I pumped the fuel priming pump on top of the filter a few times but I did not bleed any fuel out.  I attempted to start two more times with approximately 5 seconds of cranking each time with no success. No indication of any firing. 

 

Finally: I drained about 1/4 cup of clean fuel from the bottom of the fuel filter, then loosened the fuel bleed valve and pumped some more fuel out of the bleed valve. It did not appear that there was any noticable air in the system.  Cleaned up and retried with Lori cranking for 5 seconds while I pumped the priming pump. No success.

 

Fuel tank has over 500 liters.

 

I thought I'd  check in with other Amel owners to get inputs on the next steps for troubleshooting. 

 

Advice appreciated.

 

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387

 


Re: Propeller recommendation

Miles
 

Hi Alex,

I have been pleased with my Autoprop.  Because it sets the ideal pitch for any condition, it gives good mileage, and it is especially good when motor-sailing as it sets the pitch so that the engine has a good load at low RPMs.  The down side is that the blades must be kept perfectly clean.  A barnacle interrupts that flow over the blade and changes the pitch from the ideal pitch.  

I once tried using the fixed prop on my boat while the Autoprop was being reconditioned.  In addition to fuel consumption, my sailing speed was reduced by about 1 knot. 

Regards,

Miles 

s/y Ladybug, sm 216 at berth at Le Marin, Martinique

 


Re: Yanmar no start.

Dan Carlson
 

Thanks for the tips Bill and Steve,

I tried to trouble shoot the solenoid by having Lori actuate the stop button on the console while I monitored for the clicking down at the engine.  That sounded normal. I tried to start and again it cranked but did not catch.  But it sounded like it was just getting some combustion at the end, so one more try and it slowly caught and when I gave it some slight throttle in neutral it picked up. I ran it for 15  minutes at 1700 rpm to get to temperature. It had a little bit of load from the alternator, charging the Li batteries. After it reached temp I switched the alternator regulator to "float"/ no load, ran the rpms slowly up to 2500 and back down to 1000 rpm. After a minute there I put the throttle back to the idle position and the rpms decreased to about 500 and then the engine stopped. So it seems like I have a low rpm idle setting or fuel flow issue at idle. I think I can adjust the idle up slightly, but that doesn't account for the change in performance of the engine, both the unexpected stopping as well as the difficult starting. (I've never had to apply any throttle when starting in the past.)

Steve, I'm not sure if I can test that small of a change in the fuel pump performance on the boat. 

Also, the fuel injectors were rebuilt and the valves adjusted a a little less than two hundred hours ago. 

Does that trigger any more ideas? 

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387.


On Wed, Feb 3, 2021, 4:23 PM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
My 8 Ball Crystal Ball says, "Check Back Later"😀

I wonder if the fuel flow stop solenoid or the stop button is not working and cutting off fuel?


image.png

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 1:03 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hello Yanmar diesel gurus.

Our Yanmar 4Jh3-HTE has never missed a beat, until today.

Engine started fine and operated for 30-40 mins to lift anchor exit anchorage and get underway. Mostly at 1200-1500rpm.  Normal shutdown, with a short rev to approx 2500rmp before return to idle for a minute or two then shutdown.  Temp and oil pressure all normal.

After approx 1 hr sail to next anchorage engine started fine and operated at approx 1500 rpm for 15 minutes into anchorage then idling while anchoring for approx 5 mins, 1200-1300rpm to back down anchor, then after a short idle another rev to approx 2800 rpm then return to idle. When the engine rpms returned to idle the engine just stopped.  After thinking through everything that just happened I attempted to restart the engine and it did not catch after approx 3-5 seconds of cranking.  

We had lunch and allowed the engine to cool for a little over an hour. I checked coolent level, oil level, fuel in racor, looked over the engine and then attempted to start with no luck.  Next I pumped the fuel priming pump on top of the filter a few times but I did not bleed any fuel out.  I attempted to start two more times with approximately 5 seconds of cranking each time with no success. No indication of any firing. 

Finally: I drained about 1/4 cup of clean fuel from the bottom of the fuel filter, then loosened the fuel bleed valve and pumped some more fuel out of the bleed valve. It did not appear that there was any noticable air in the system.  Cleaned up and retried with Lori cranking for 5 seconds while I pumped the priming pump. No success.

Fuel tank has over 500 liters.

I thought I'd  check in with other Amel owners to get inputs on the next steps for troubleshooting. 

Advice appreciated.

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387


Re: Yanmar no start.

Stephen Davis
 

Hi Dan,

sorry about the starting issues, as I know how frustrating it can be. On a non electronically controlled engine like yours, it is most likely a fuel issue. If your fuel is clean, and no air in the system, how about a bad fuel pump. I have a newer Yanmar with an ECM, and have a fuel pump on mine, and assume you do as well. Can you crack the injectors, and have someone turn the engine over with the throttle full open, while you monitor to see that you have good fuel flow? This is a bit messy, so have some rags around the injectors to catch the fuel. 


Good luck!

Steve Davis
Aloha SM 72
Port Townsend, WA


Re: Yanmar no start.

 

My 8 Ball Crystal Ball says, "Check Back Later"😀

I wonder if the fuel flow stop solenoid or the stop button is not working and cutting off fuel?


image.png

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 1:03 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hello Yanmar diesel gurus.

Our Yanmar 4Jh3-HTE has never missed a beat, until today.

Engine started fine and operated for 30-40 mins to lift anchor exit anchorage and get underway. Mostly at 1200-1500rpm.  Normal shutdown, with a short rev to approx 2500rmp before return to idle for a minute or two then shutdown.  Temp and oil pressure all normal.

After approx 1 hr sail to next anchorage engine started fine and operated at approx 1500 rpm for 15 minutes into anchorage then idling while anchoring for approx 5 mins, 1200-1300rpm to back down anchor, then after a short idle another rev to approx 2800 rpm then return to idle. When the engine rpms returned to idle the engine just stopped.  After thinking through everything that just happened I attempted to restart the engine and it did not catch after approx 3-5 seconds of cranking.  

We had lunch and allowed the engine to cool for a little over an hour. I checked coolent level, oil level, fuel in racor, looked over the engine and then attempted to start with no luck.  Next I pumped the fuel priming pump on top of the filter a few times but I did not bleed any fuel out.  I attempted to start two more times with approximately 5 seconds of cranking each time with no success. No indication of any firing. 

Finally: I drained about 1/4 cup of clean fuel from the bottom of the fuel filter, then loosened the fuel bleed valve and pumped some more fuel out of the bleed valve. It did not appear that there was any noticable air in the system.  Cleaned up and retried with Lori cranking for 5 seconds while I pumped the priming pump. No success.

Fuel tank has over 500 liters.

I thought I'd  check in with other Amel owners to get inputs on the next steps for troubleshooting. 

Advice appreciated.

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387


Re: Climma Air Conditioning from shore power

Billy Newport
 
Edited

My Amel 55 is a 230v boat. I am using a us 240v pigtail to power my boat in the manner you describe in the usa. The heater and climma work on shore power. The 2500w inverter must be on for dish washer and washing machine or microwave. My pigtail is wired as bill describes in his book.

Billy.


Re: ONAN replacement or not?

 

Alex,

I sent you a private answer via email.

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 1:08 PM Alexander Ramseyer <alexramseyer@...> wrote:
Bill,
my Firefly bank is installed and in use.
Q: How often do you do the discharge? Would my standard 100Amps AMEL54 original Dolphin Charger provide the 0.2-0.5C that you mention? Is it something that you would normally only do when you have access to shore power?

Also, I'm planing to buy and install a battery equalizer system. I hope that frees me from the periodic discharge. (as my understanding is the purpose of it is to equalize the batteries)?

Thanks for sharing your wisdom!
Alex


Re: ONAN replacement or not?

Alexander Ramseyer
 

Bill,
my Firefly bank is installed and in use.
Q: How often do you do the discharge? Would my standard 100Amps AMEL54 original Dolphin Charger provide the 0.2-0.5C that you mention? Is it something that you would normally only do when you have access to shore power?

Also, I'm planing to buy and install a battery equalizer system. I hope that frees me from the periodic discharge. (as my understanding is the purpose of it is to equalize the batteries)?

Thanks for sharing your wisdom!
Alex


Yanmar no start.

Dan Carlson
 

Hello Yanmar diesel gurus.

Our Yanmar 4Jh3-HTE has never missed a beat, until today.

Engine started fine and operated for 30-40 mins to lift anchor exit anchorage and get underway. Mostly at 1200-1500rpm.  Normal shutdown, with a short rev to approx 2500rmp before return to idle for a minute or two then shutdown.  Temp and oil pressure all normal.

After approx 1 hr sail to next anchorage engine started fine and operated at approx 1500 rpm for 15 minutes into anchorage then idling while anchoring for approx 5 mins, 1200-1300rpm to back down anchor, then after a short idle another rev to approx 2800 rpm then return to idle. When the engine rpms returned to idle the engine just stopped.  After thinking through everything that just happened I attempted to restart the engine and it did not catch after approx 3-5 seconds of cranking.  

We had lunch and allowed the engine to cool for a little over an hour. I checked coolent level, oil level, fuel in racor, looked over the engine and then attempted to start with no luck.  Next I pumped the fuel priming pump on top of the filter a few times but I did not bleed any fuel out.  I attempted to start two more times with approximately 5 seconds of cranking each time with no success. No indication of any firing. 

Finally: I drained about 1/4 cup of clean fuel from the bottom of the fuel filter, then loosened the fuel bleed valve and pumped some more fuel out of the bleed valve. It did not appear that there was any noticable air in the system.  Cleaned up and retried with Lori cranking for 5 seconds while I pumped the priming pump. No success.

Fuel tank has over 500 liters.

I thought I'd  check in with other Amel owners to get inputs on the next steps for troubleshooting. 

Advice appreciated.

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387


Re: Propeller recommendation

Dominique Sery
 

Hello, i have an Autoprop propeller on my 54 and i am satisfied with it.
advantage for maneuvers especially in reverse and less slowing down under sail.
but it is very heavy, expensive, requires maintenance and the pitch is a little too long (6 knots at 1100 rpm)
Dominique
Irko A54 # 16


Propeller recommendation

Alexander Ramseyer
 

Dear Amelians,
I'm looking for recommendations for a propeller.
Please share your experience with yours, why you think it was a good choice for your Super Maramu or 54.
Also, I appreciate your thoughts in regards to price/performance. Good props can be very expensive, but are they worth their money?
Thank you!
Alex
s/v NO STRESS
AMEL54#15


Re: Climma Air Conditioning from shore power

Ryan Meador
 

Hi Peter,

I concur with Bill -- you almost certainly have a ground fault.  The 32A breaker on the outside of the panel box is also a ground fault interrupter.  If it is tripping instantly, that indicates either a ground fault or massive overcurrent (a mild overcurrent would take time to trip).

For what it's worth, we've been running our air conditioning on USA shore power almost the whole time we've had the boat, as did the previous owner.  It's connected through a USA 50A plug as you described.

Ryan and Kelly
SM 233 Iteration
Salem, MA, USA


On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:09 AM Peter de Groot <pandmdegroot@...> wrote:
Hi Tom,
Yes, the circuit breaker that is tripping is the Amel unit on the outside of the 220VAC box housing the panel.

We do not have a transformer for the 110VAC circuit.  To get the 220VAC power from the shore pedestal, the previous owners adapted a North American 50A connector on the end of the Amel cable.  So we feed 2 hot legs with no neutral.


Peter,
La Querida, #207






Re: Climma Air Conditioning from shore power

Brent Cameron
 

Of course you are right Tom.  I knew that but sometimes I get things exactly backwards when my fingers type faster than my brain! :-)  Great catch!

Brent

--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Scuba Compressor storage on a MANGO

Arlo
 

Hello all. I am getting ready to order a SCUBA compressor -  Coltri MCH6 (110 volt electric). My boat its the Amel Mango. Do any of my fellow Mango owners have a dive compressor on their vessel? If so where do you store it?  The footprint is 29x15x17 (LxWxH) comparable to the Baur Junior. It is too large for the engine bay, and the port side deep locker is really too tight to be practical. 

The SM and Amel 54's have different storage arrangements so it will not readily fit where many of you store them on your SM.

Thanks
Arlo
Amel Mango # 46


Re: Climma Air Conditioning from shore power

Peter de Groot
 

Hi Tom,
Yes, the circuit breaker that is tripping is the Amel unit on the outside of the 220VAC box housing the panel.

We do not have a transformer for the 110VAC circuit. To get the 220VAC power from the shore pedestal, the previous owners adapted a North American 50A connector on the end of the Amel cable. So we feed 2 hot legs with no neutral.


Peter,
La Querida, #207


Re: Climma Air Conditioning from shore power

 

Peter,

I am going to answer your question as though nothing has been changed or modified since your Amel was new. This is the only way anyone without specific knowledge of your Amel can accurately give you an answer.

The reason that removing the connection between A and B worked for you is because I believe that you removed the Climma Calpeda saltwater pump from the Earth circuit. But to be sure that it was the pump removed, I would need to know if the pump was also connected to the Amel bonding system. If it is, then possibly something else is connected to the Amel bonding system that is causing this issue through the bonding connection to the pump. This is a little confusing, but if your Amel is original, the bonding system and Earth are bridged at the original AC saltwater pump...the Bonding wire is connected to the brass one-way valve (see below) which is connected to the metal pump case (see below). Inside the capacitor and wiring junction box on the pump, Earth is connected to the case. In effect at the AC Saltwater Pump, Bonding is connected to the case and Earth is connected to the case, resulting in Bonding connected to Earth. 

Maybe you should take a close look at any change in connections to the bonding system, or any newly added 230v devices. Of course, it could be other issues with original devices deteriorating and causing a ground fault.

Maybe with this information, an electrician can help you.

Bill

Below is Amel Bonding wire connected to the brass one-way valve
image.png

Below is inside the wiring junction box on the Calpeda Saltwater pump where the Ground wire is connected to the metal case of the pump, bridging Earth and Bonding:
image.png
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 7:57 PM Peter de Groot <pandmdegroot@...> wrote:
Thank you Bill, Matt and Tom,
Just to clarify, when I refer to plugging into shore power, for this discussion I mean 230VAC 50A shore power in NorthAmerica.  (Yes 60 Hz).  The previous owners converted the Amel cable to feed 2 hot legs and a ground (no neutral).  Again, the previous owners claim (and I believe)were able to run the AC from this power source.

The wire removed was the A to B connection on the diagram

Peter
SM 207


Re: Climma Air Conditioning from shore power

Thomas Peacock
 

Hi Brent,
Your physics will outshine mine any day of the week, but I must interject that it was Tesla who was the AC advocate (indeed, he invented the AC motor). Edison fought the losing battle for DC. 

Tom Peacock
SM Aletes #240
Chesapeake Bay

On Feb 2, 2021, at 11:33 PM, Brent Cameron <brentcameron61@...> wrote:



[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Typo]

Actually Matt is right, the US (and Canadian) standard is 120Volts AC +/- 5% (which is 114 to 126 Volts) at 60 Hertz.

Way back in the early days, Edison (who won the power battle with AC power over Tesla’s DC), had set the standard at 110 VAC to ensure that houses at the end of lines could at least get 100 VAC and many appliances were labeled that way but the standard was changed to 115V in about the 1930’s and then in 1984, the NEC mandated 120V +/- 5%.    It has been creeping up to make power transmission more efficient with the existing gauges of wire used.  

Normal residential power is delivered  as single phase from each leg of the transformer at 120 VAC to neutral with the other leg to neutral being 180 degrees out of phase (so the two hot wires together will give 240 VAC - still at 60 Hertz).   Industrial systems (and some marinas) use 3 phase power because it is more efficient and that system has three hot legs, each of which is at 120 VAC to neutral but 208 VAC to another leg as the power is out of phase by only 120˚.  Think of the power as coming in on a Sine wave oscillating at 60 Hertz.  When you combine those three phases together you get 360 degrees (or 120 degrees on each of three legs).     The net of it is that your boat can see anything from 208 to 240 VAC if you join two hot legs together or 120 VAC if you just use one hot leg to neutral.  All 60 Hertz and +/-5%.  

Most devices labelled 110VAC will have no difficulty at all at 120VAC.  NEMA rated motors will go +/- 10% of their nameplate voltages.   Old incandescent bulbs might burn a bit hotter (as might the element on your stove or hair dryer) but the motors will take to it just fine as will your electronics.

Brent Cameron, Future Amel owner & Amel Owner's Registry Moderator

--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


--
Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


Re: How much Solar?

Paul Osterberg
 

I just finalizing the installation of a 540 Ah LIFePO4 bank, have discharge att maximum what my Inverter can draw and charged with 100 A, I only notice minor temp increase, more heat from my 4 MPPT regulators. and more heat from the BMS when balancing, but that should be reduced by time. se no need for ventilation. So fare very happy with the LiFePO4 installation.
We had last year 810 W solar panel which gave about 125 Ah a normal sunny day in Portugal. Now I have 1400 w just installed got 70 Ah yesterday a very murky February day, started the solar charger at around 11 o clock. when I arrived at the boat. guess I will easy get 200Ah a day, enough for cocking
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259

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