Date   

Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Paul Harries
 

Never having sailed a ketch I was hoping someone could elaborate on how the mizzen is used to steer. 
I understand that first the other sails have to be adjusted to give slight weather helm but what is the secret with the mizzen?


On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 11:24, Justin Maguire
<justin_maguire@...> wrote:
What bill said 👆🏼


On Jul 8, 2021, at 12:19, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

I do not believe it is reasonable to expect one (or even two!) people to hand steer a boat for a thousand miles.  It just gets mentally and physically exhasuting, depending on point of sail and weather.  BUT>>> there is an alternative as Thomas of GARULFO suggests.  A well balanced sailboat (and a SM is pretty good at this) can sail on it's own for a good long time, holding a more or less constant angle to the wind.  It is very effective upwind, moderately so on a shallow reach, and is difficult to impossible as you come further downwind. You can not go anywhere you want to go, but you are not helplessly drifting either.

There are a few tricks.  To get a SM holding a steady course you must trim the sails so there is a bit of weather helm.  If there is even a bit of lee helm the boat just will not balance. In light winds, sometimes the mizzen traveler needs to be cocked to windward a bit to get the rudder turned the right way. The boat needs to head up in a gust, not bear away.  Off the wind, sheeting the jib in a bit loose, and having the mizzen just a bit tight can help.  The boat won't hold a dead straight line, but it will find its own way.  

When sailing close hauled, the rudder needs to be locked in place, as you bear away, there comes a point where the boat will usually behave better with the rudder left free to find its own angle. in both cases, if the need existed, this could be handled by the emergency tiller.

Minor course adjustments are made by tweaking the angle of the mizzen.

On our old boat (a 40 foot ketch) we broke our wind vane 1/3 of the way from California to Hawaii.  We managed 650 miles back upwind to California just trimming sails.  Once the boat was in the groove, we made course adjustments with the mizzen sheet.  We hardly touched the wheel at all until we were back in the variable coastal winds.

Each boat, and each set of sails, has its own sweet spot.  The only way to really know is to practice it. Having a powerful, reliable electric autopilot covers up a lot of sail trimming sins. Learning how to balance the boat so she can take care of herself will make anybody a better sailor.

We have the linear drive installed on our rudder, the chain drive on the wheel, either one can be driven by either of the two autopilot computers, and we have a backup linear drive that drops in place easily.  But of course all those do depend on the constant supply of electricity.

Bill Kinney
s/v Harmonie
Brunswick, GA, USA

--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Justin Maguire
 

What bill said 👆🏼


On Jul 8, 2021, at 12:19, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

I do not believe it is reasonable to expect one (or even two!) people to hand steer a boat for a thousand miles.  It just gets mentally and physically exhasuting, depending on point of sail and weather.  BUT>>> there is an alternative as Thomas of GARULFO suggests.  A well balanced sailboat (and a SM is pretty good at this) can sail on it's own for a good long time, holding a more or less constant angle to the wind.  It is very effective upwind, moderately so on a shallow reach, and is difficult to impossible as you come further downwind. You can not go anywhere you want to go, but you are not helplessly drifting either.

There are a few tricks.  To get a SM holding a steady course you must trim the sails so there is a bit of weather helm.  If there is even a bit of lee helm the boat just will not balance. In light winds, sometimes the mizzen traveler needs to be cocked to windward a bit to get the rudder turned the right way. The boat needs to head up in a gust, not bear away.  Off the wind, sheeting the jib in a bit loose, and having the mizzen just a bit tight can help.  The boat won't hold a dead straight line, but it will find its own way.  

When sailing close hauled, the rudder needs to be locked in place, as you bear away, there comes a point where the boat will usually behave better with the rudder left free to find its own angle. in both cases, if the need existed, this could be handled by the emergency tiller.

Minor course adjustments are made by tweaking the angle of the mizzen.

On our old boat (a 40 foot ketch) we broke our wind vane 1/3 of the way from California to Hawaii.  We managed 650 miles back upwind to California just trimming sails.  Once the boat was in the groove, we made course adjustments with the mizzen sheet.  We hardly touched the wheel at all until we were back in the variable coastal winds.

Each boat, and each set of sails, has its own sweet spot.  The only way to really know is to practice it. Having a powerful, reliable electric autopilot covers up a lot of sail trimming sins. Learning how to balance the boat so she can take care of herself will make anybody a better sailor.

We have the linear drive installed on our rudder, the chain drive on the wheel, either one can be driven by either of the two autopilot computers, and we have a backup linear drive that drops in place easily.  But of course all those do depend on the constant supply of electricity.

Bill Kinney
s/v Harmonie
Brunswick, GA, USA


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Bill Kinney
 

I do not believe it is reasonable to expect one (or even two!) people to hand steer a boat for a thousand miles.  It just gets mentally and physically exhasuting, depending on point of sail and weather.  BUT>>> there is an alternative as Thomas of GARULFO suggests.  A well balanced sailboat (and a SM is pretty good at this) can sail on it's own for a good long time, holding a more or less constant angle to the wind.  It is very effective upwind, moderately so on a shallow reach, and is difficult to impossible as you come further downwind. You can not go anywhere you want to go, but you are not helplessly drifting either.

There are a few tricks.  To get a SM holding a steady course you must trim the sails so there is a bit of weather helm.  If there is even a bit of lee helm the boat just will not balance. In light winds, sometimes the mizzen traveler needs to be cocked to windward a bit to get the rudder turned the right way. The boat needs to head up in a gust, not bear away.  Off the wind, sheeting the jib in a bit loose, and having the mizzen just a bit tight can help.  The boat won't hold a dead straight line, but it will find its own way.  

When sailing close hauled, the rudder needs to be locked in place, as you bear away, there comes a point where the boat will usually behave better with the rudder left free to find its own angle. in both cases, if the need existed, this could be handled by the emergency tiller.

Minor course adjustments are made by tweaking the angle of the mizzen.

On our old boat (a 40 foot ketch) we broke our wind vane 1/3 of the way from California to Hawaii.  We managed 650 miles back upwind to California just trimming sails.  Once the boat was in the groove, we made course adjustments with the mizzen sheet.  We hardly touched the wheel at all until we were back in the variable coastal winds.

Each boat, and each set of sails, has its own sweet spot.  The only way to really know is to practice it. Having a powerful, reliable electric autopilot covers up a lot of sail trimming sins. Learning how to balance the boat so she can take care of herself will make anybody a better sailor.

We have the linear drive installed on our rudder, the chain drive on the wheel, either one can be driven by either of the two autopilot computers, and we have a backup linear drive that drops in place easily.  But of course all those do depend on the constant supply of electricity.

Bill Kinney
s/v Harmonie
Brunswick, GA, USA


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Dennis Johns
 

For solo sailing, definitely consider a windvane.  Hydrovane is a good choice because it has a completely separate rudder and can work if the boat's rudder is disabled for whatever reason (I used one to cross the Pacific -not solo).  The issue with a windvane is it needs to have a sail of some sort and if you have davits and a dinghy hanging off the stern, that will be difficult to engineer.  All windvanes have a learning curve to understand how to balance the boat and adjust the windvane and it takes longer for some than for others.  The suggestion for a second drive unit is a good one as well as drive units can lose their clutch and that is easily remedied with a second unit.  The emergency tiller noted is more redundancy but rest from that would require heaving to or drifting as also noted.

Dennis Johns
Libertad
Maramu #121

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 7:46 AM Ian Park <parkianj@...> wrote:
I had a Hydrovane on my Santorin. When it worked it worked beautifully.
I took it off and sold it. Occasionally it would not quite hold the boat and I had to release he locking on the wheel to put it back on course. When we encountered Sargasso weed it gathered on a the vertical rudder and prevented it working - the weed slid off the keel and main rudder because they are not vertical enough n the water. There is significant wear on the gel coat on the stern from the pressure of the Hydrovane mounting.
My decision was to carry a second motor for the rotary drive. My Santorin generates enough electricity with he shaft alternator to steer the boat plus the sun extra fuel solar panels. I do check the stiffness of the steering cables and an play in the steering rack following Aloha’s and experience.
The Santorin may well benefit from engineering systems from the SM on a boat which is smaller and not so heavy - almost over- engineered, but no complaints there.
Steve’s experience on Aloha is the only occasion I have heard of about a steering breakdown on an Amel.
I trust my 27 year old boat more than many new boats out there. When I bought ‘Ocean Hobo’ an old French gentleman passed by on the pontoon and said ‘M’sieu, you ‘ave bought the Rolls Royce of yachts!’
How right he has proven to be.
Good luck in your search.

Ian ‘Ocean Hobo’ SN 96






Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Ian Park
 

I had a Hydrovane on my Santorin. When it worked it worked beautifully.
I took it off and sold it. Occasionally it would not quite hold the boat and I had to release he locking on the wheel to put it back on course. When we encountered Sargasso weed it gathered on a the vertical rudder and prevented it working - the weed slid off the keel and main rudder because they are not vertical enough n the water. There is significant wear on the gel coat on the stern from the pressure of the Hydrovane mounting.
My decision was to carry a second motor for the rotary drive. My Santorin generates enough electricity with he shaft alternator to steer the boat plus the sun extra fuel solar panels. I do check the stiffness of the steering cables and an play in the steering rack following Aloha’s and experience.
The Santorin may well benefit from engineering systems from the SM on a boat which is smaller and not so heavy - almost over- engineered, but no complaints there.
Steve’s experience on Aloha is the only occasion I have heard of about a steering breakdown on an Amel.
I trust my 27 year old boat more than many new boats out there. When I bought ‘Ocean Hobo’ an old French gentleman passed by on the pontoon and said ‘M’sieu, you ‘ave bought the Rolls Royce of yachts!’
How right he has proven to be.
Good luck in your search.

Ian ‘Ocean Hobo’ SN 96


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Sv Garulfo
 


In our experience there are points of sail where our boat can sail itself for a remarkable long time (upward of 45m) with the helm completely free, and that despite of confused seas.
We’ve done it for fun in the Caribbean and again in French Polynesia, in between islands, with AWA between 60° and 40° and AWS of 12kn to 18kn. 

I can’t really say why it works so beautifully but once the sails are trimmed properly (the mizzen being the final touch to perfectly balance the boat), the sea state is absorbed by the free rudder. The helm turns a fair amount as the boat rides up and down the waves, but it behaves better than when driven by the autopilot. It’s a smoother ride, more natural (and very satisfying!).
It usually stops when an odd wave pushes the boat out of equilibrium and the AWA start drifting one way or another. 

I don’t know about other points of sail. I’d say it’s more difficult to achieve as the sea is more likely to knock the boat off balance. 

I would imagine drifting/heaving to is a way for solo sailors to rest.

Having said that, I think the redundancy you are looking for here is crew. 
Solo sailing such a big boat requires reasonable confidence that redundancy of technical equipment will cover 99% of situations. The remaining 1% is a leap of faith. If that is not acceptable, a smaller boat with a wind-vane may be a better choice. 


Best,

Thomas
GARULFO 
A54-122
Tahiti 

On 7 Jul 2021, at 23:04, Stéphane Meyer via groups.io <fredolo@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

All valid comments and thank you for your inputs.

How is it humanly possible to manually steer a boat for 15 or 20 days if you're on your own and for exemple having to deal with a complete electrical failure ? 
I'd like a fail operational system but I know this isn't an airliner and event they sometime fail despite all what is done to achieve redundancy.

However I'd like to do my best not being on my own in the middle of the Pacific Ocean having to manually steer the boat ....

So here we are :
1/ How can we have a backup automatic steering in case of total electrical failure ? I was of course thinking of a wind vane system but I've heard this is not achievable on a SM/SN is that true ?
2/ How can you reasonnably deal with the said situation if you don't have such a backup ? Can you still setup a bungee system which would "steer the boat" while your'e having the little sleep you need not to kill yourself ?


Re: Bow thruster does not work in one direction

 

Thanks, Mohammad. 

Many people think that my book is comprised of my first-hand experiences. It is not. About 20% of the book consists of things that I have learned from others' experiences. In fact, when Thomas first solved this issue, a notation went into my Amel Book. When Doug submitted his bow thruster PDF, it had a perfect photo to go with Thomas's description of the wires. When you posted the photo of the burned contact point, it was added to the same page allowing Thomas's original description to come alive with 2 photos.

The result is here, which I will share with everyone:
The only credit due me is that I put all 3 things together, modifying that page 2 times as more information came to light.

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 1:21 AM Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Hello Thomas;

 

Doug informed me that he remembered seeing a post from you in this regard and Bill managed to locate and forward it. Your write up was also helpful.

 

Bill is great at “soaking in” the knowledge from the group, organizing and accessing it when needed. A great resource for all Amel owners.

 

Respectfully;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sv Garulfo via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, July 7, 2021 11:31 AM
To: Amel Yacht owners Group <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bow thruster does not work in one direvtion

 

Hi all,

 

That issue happened to us 3 years ago and we reported on the solution here (06/06/18   #40108 ). 

 

 

I would suggest carrying a spare relay as it happened to us again just recently. Note that we don’t use our thruster much, I don’t know if that helped delay the reoccurrence or instead accelerated it. 

 

In our bow thruster, the oem relay is by Albright (sales@...) in the UK (they could only provide model SW202-317 equivalent to SW202-260 installed).

An equivalent relay is available at evdrives.com  in the USA.

 

 

Hope that will help,

 

 

Best, 

Thomas

GARULFO 

A54-122

Tahiti


On 7 Jul 2021, at 03:00, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

I am glad it worked out and thanks for the photos. I was aware that this solution worked on at least two cases, but did not have the benefit of such exacting photos.

 

I am thinking that the life of this relay is probably about 10 - 12 years and if an owner has one in this age range disconnection from the motor, cleaning, and inspection is probably in order.

 

How many hours did it take?

 

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 

 

View My Training Calendar

 

 

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 2:13 AM Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Our first solution of just cleaning the control box, turned out to be a coincidental repair. The Bow Thruster did work for a few days and then stopped working in one direction again. After some research and assistance from the group, especially Doug Smith of Aventura and Bill Rouse, we narrowed down the issue to the main bowthruster relay. Yesterday we opened it up for inspection. The exterior of the relay was pristine, but found what is shown in the attached pictures. Some material has been physically transferred, from a process similar to welding, from some of the contacts in the relay, to the opposing contact in the relay. After a thorough cleaning of the buildup on th econtacts and other surfaces using wire brushers and application of CorrosionX to the springs, we have a fully operational Bowthruster. Now need to order a new one, as I don't believe we have as good a connection when the relay activates, due to the uneven surfaces of the contacts created by the arching that has been going on for a while. Thanks for all the shared knowledge.


Re: Bow thruster does not work in one direction

william reynolds
 

The first line of checking for bow thruster problems should be the connections at the back of the control switches at the helm. There are numerous push on connectors that are prone to corrosion. Note that the water run-off from the upper helm area dumps on the port side right on to the bow thruster switches..Most of  my problems with my bow thruster were solved by removing all the push on connectors, cleaning both sides to shiny metal, reconnect and spray with T-9  or CRC  (not WD-40) . Then check for voltage coming out of each switch. There may be other problems down the line but this will eliminate problems with activation.
Bill Reynolds
Cloudstreet SM2K 331


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Ann-Sofie, S/Y Lady Annila
 

If you have to hand steer due to electrical problems, the hand steering is the minor problem.


Regards
Ann-Sofie
S/Y Lady Annila, SM 232
Present in Fuengirola, Spain


Skickat från min iPhone

08/07/2021 kl. 11:13 skrev Stéphane Meyer via groups.io <fredolo@...>:



[Edited Message Follows]

All valid comments and thank you for your inputs.

How is it humanly possible to manually steer a boat for 15 or 20 days if you're on your own and for exemple having to deal with a complete electrical failure ? 
I'd like a fail operational system but I know this isn't an airliner and event they sometime fail despite all what is done to achieve redundancy.

However I'd like to do my best not being on my own in the middle of the Pacific Ocean having to manually steer the boat ....

So here we are :
1/ How can we have a backup automatic steering in case of total electrical failure ? I was of course thinking of a wind vane system but I've heard this is not achievable on a SM/SN is that true ?
2/ How can you reasonnably deal with the said situation if you don't have such a backup ? Can you still setup a bungee system which would "steer the boat" while your'e having the little sleep you need not to kill yourself ?


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Stéphane Meyer
 
Edited

All valid comments and thank you for your inputs.

How is it humanly possible to manually steer a boat for 15 or 20 days if you're on your own and for exemple having to deal with a complete electrical failure ? 
I'd like a fail operational system but I know this isn't an airliner and event they sometime fail despite all what is done to achieve redundancy.

However I'd like to do my best not being on my own in the middle of the Pacific Ocean having to manually steer the boat ....

So here we are :
1/ How can we have a backup automatic steering in case of total electrical failure ? I was of course thinking of a wind vane system but I've heard this is not achievable on a SM/SN is that true ?
2/ How can you reasonnably deal with the said situation if you don't have such a backup ? Can you still setup a bungee system which would "steer the boat" while your'e having the little sleep you need not to kill yourself ?


Re: Bow thruster does not work in one direction

Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hello Thomas;

 

Doug informed me that he remembered seeing a post from you in this regard and Bill managed to locate and forward it. Your write up was also helpful.

 

Bill is great at “soaking in” the knowledge from the group, organizing and accessing it when needed. A great resource for all Amel owners.

 

Respectfully;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sv Garulfo via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, July 7, 2021 11:31 AM
To: Amel Yacht owners Group <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bow thruster does not work in one direvtion

 

Hi all,

 

That issue happened to us 3 years ago and we reported on the solution here (06/06/18   #40108 ). 

 

 

I would suggest carrying a spare relay as it happened to us again just recently. Note that we don’t use our thruster much, I don’t know if that helped delay the reoccurrence or instead accelerated it. 

 

In our bow thruster, the oem relay is by Albright (sales@...) in the UK (they could only provide model SW202-317 equivalent to SW202-260 installed).

An equivalent relay is available at evdrives.com  in the USA.

 

 

Hope that will help,

 

 

Best, 

Thomas

GARULFO 

A54-122

Tahiti


On 7 Jul 2021, at 03:00, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

I am glad it worked out and thanks for the photos. I was aware that this solution worked on at least two cases, but did not have the benefit of such exacting photos.

 

I am thinking that the life of this relay is probably about 10 - 12 years and if an owner has one in this age range disconnection from the motor, cleaning, and inspection is probably in order.

 

How many hours did it take?

 

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 

 

View My Training Calendar

 

 

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 2:13 AM Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Our first solution of just cleaning the control box, turned out to be a coincidental repair. The Bow Thruster did work for a few days and then stopped working in one direction again. After some research and assistance from the group, especially Doug Smith of Aventura and Bill Rouse, we narrowed down the issue to the main bowthruster relay. Yesterday we opened it up for inspection. The exterior of the relay was pristine, but found what is shown in the attached pictures. Some material has been physically transferred, from a process similar to welding, from some of the contacts in the relay, to the opposing contact in the relay. After a thorough cleaning of the buildup on th econtacts and other surfaces using wire brushers and application of CorrosionX to the springs, we have a fully operational Bowthruster. Now need to order a new one, as I don't believe we have as good a connection when the relay activates, due to the uneven surfaces of the contacts created by the arching that has been going on for a while. Thanks for all the shared knowledge.


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Eric Freedman
 

Please remember that the boat can be steered by aft autopilot if the cables snap or the rack and pinion lock up.

 

If all else fails, you still have the enormous emergency tiller which some people have used to steer hundreds if not a thousand miles.

 

I was once told that you could stand a super Maramu up on the rudder. I don’t know if that is true- based upon the angle of the ruder stock, however the rudder stock is a beast.

 

Off the Canaries in 2002 we bounced a very big whale off our ruder with no damage to Kimberlite.

It first hit the keel and somehow hit the rudder as the wheel spun crazily as it broke the heim joint at the end of the linear autopilot.

 

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io On Behalf Of Alain Blanchard
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2021 5:29 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

 

Hello Stéphane 

 

The concept of dual auto-pilot on my personal point of view is that For long haul trip I am more confortable with a back up. Agree that there is only one rudder but as a former twin engine helicopter Pilot I was more than challenged that there was only one gear box. Anyway never had serious issues with the gear box but some with the engines. Never heard in my humble Amel SM expérience of a rudder loss.

Alain

SM 146/Koriolys 

Envoyé de mon iPhone



Le 7 juil. 2021 à 23:04, Justin Maguire <justin_maguire@...> a écrit :

 My .02 - YMMV 😉

 

 

True redundancy means two completely independent systems…

 

How this is done on a boat with one rudder is different than one with two. 

 

The SM and A54 (one rudder) have redundancy by placing one on the backside of the helm and one at the rudder stock. 

 

I don’t know how the 55 does it. 

 

The 50 and 60 each have two rudders and each has its own completely independent system all the way to two different breaker switches and discreet head units at the helm. 

 

Nothing is completely failure proof…

- get hit by lightning and you can assume all electronics are out 

- all AP systems use power… lose power and assume all auto pilots out 

- on a single rudder boat, lose the rudder and you’re steering with sails.. one benefit of a ketch rig is that this is MUCH easier to do than on a sloop/cutter rig

- on a duel rudder setup (50/60) you can actually lose a rudder and still have one complete AP setup but lose them both and steering with sails will require lots of skill 

 

3rd only to water and sails/standing rigging (for me) would be not losing power. The completely dry bilge of the Amel’s is fantastic as it ensures you’re batteries won’t be destroyed by water ingress. 

 

The generator is a redundant system for power… put enough solar on so that this remains true. 

 

 

 

 



On Jul 7, 2021, at 16:25, Stéphane Meyer via groups.io <fredolo@...> wrote:

Hello,

Please just le me introduce myself quickly,

When I was 16 years old my father's best friend bought a SM brand new from the factory. I was stocked and we sailed onboard his SM around Toulon area in the 90's. Sadly he passed away before he could realize his dream to sail around the world.
I've been playing myself a lot with the idea and for me there is only one brand I would ever consider ...Amel. I just love so many things about these boats and I think you have to really love a boat considering what it takes to maintain it.
I'm not boat shopping yet, but will be within the next five years.

One question I always ask myself. Please forgive me being so clueless but I never owned myself a boat equipped with an autopilot system.

As an airline pilot I want redundancy for all the critical systems. On a boat especially solo, I guess the critical systems are the rudder, the AP system, at least one sail, water and food.

Could someone explain me properly how to achieve REAL redundancy in the AP system ? 

How does that work on a SM ?
Is the dual AP installed really fully redundant and would you go solo across an ocean on a standard equipped SM ? What about total electrical failure ?
Same question for the SN. How is it equipped ? Single or dual AP ?

What about the wind vane installation or another backup directly on the wheel ?

Thank you for sharing what you know about it.


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Alain Blanchard <akdf85@...>
 

Hello Stéphane 

The concept of dual auto-pilot on my personal point of view is that For long haul trip I am more confortable with a back up. Agree that there is only one rudder but as a former twin engine helicopter Pilot I was more than challenged that there was only one gear box. Anyway never had serious issues with the gear box but some with the engines. Never heard in my humble Amel SM expérience of a rudder loss.
Alain
SM 146/Koriolys 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 7 juil. 2021 à 23:04, Justin Maguire <justin_maguire@...> a écrit :

 My .02 - YMMV 😉


True redundancy means two completely independent systems…

How this is done on a boat with one rudder is different than one with two. 

The SM and A54 (one rudder) have redundancy by placing one on the backside of the helm and one at the rudder stock. 

I don’t know how the 55 does it. 

The 50 and 60 each have two rudders and each has its own completely independent system all the way to two different breaker switches and discreet head units at the helm. 

Nothing is completely failure proof…
- get hit by lightning and you can assume all electronics are out 
- all AP systems use power… lose power and assume all auto pilots out 
- on a single rudder boat, lose the rudder and you’re steering with sails.. one benefit of a ketch rig is that this is MUCH easier to do than on a sloop/cutter rig
- on a duel rudder setup (50/60) you can actually lose a rudder and still have one complete AP setup but lose them both and steering with sails will require lots of skill 

3rd only to water and sails/standing rigging (for me) would be not losing power. The completely dry bilge of the Amel’s is fantastic as it ensures you’re batteries won’t be destroyed by water ingress. 

The generator is a redundant system for power… put enough solar on so that this remains true. 





On Jul 7, 2021, at 16:25, Stéphane Meyer via groups.io <fredolo@...> wrote:

Hello,

Please just le me introduce myself quickly,

When I was 16 years old my father's best friend bought a SM brand new from the factory. I was stocked and we sailed onboard his SM around Toulon area in the 90's. Sadly he passed away before he could realize his dream to sail around the world.
I've been playing myself a lot with the idea and for me there is only one brand I would ever consider ...Amel. I just love so many things about these boats and I think you have to really love a boat considering what it takes to maintain it.
I'm not boat shopping yet, but will be within the next five years.

One question I always ask myself. Please forgive me being so clueless but I never owned myself a boat equipped with an autopilot system.

As an airline pilot I want redundancy for all the critical systems. On a boat especially solo, I guess the critical systems are the rudder, the AP system, at least one sail, water and food.

Could someone explain me properly how to achieve REAL redundancy in the AP system ? 

How does that work on a SM ?
Is the dual AP installed really fully redundant and would you go solo across an ocean on a standard equipped SM ? What about total electrical failure ?
Same question for the SN. How is it equipped ? Single or dual AP ?

What about the wind vane installation or another backup directly on the wheel ?

Thank you for sharing what you know about it.


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Justin Maguire
 

My .02 - YMMV 😉


True redundancy means two completely independent systems…

How this is done on a boat with one rudder is different than one with two. 

The SM and A54 (one rudder) have redundancy by placing one on the backside of the helm and one at the rudder stock. 

I don’t know how the 55 does it. 

The 50 and 60 each have two rudders and each has its own completely independent system all the way to two different breaker switches and discreet head units at the helm. 

Nothing is completely failure proof…
- get hit by lightning and you can assume all electronics are out 
- all AP systems use power… lose power and assume all auto pilots out 
- on a single rudder boat, lose the rudder and you’re steering with sails.. one benefit of a ketch rig is that this is MUCH easier to do than on a sloop/cutter rig
- on a duel rudder setup (50/60) you can actually lose a rudder and still have one complete AP setup but lose them both and steering with sails will require lots of skill 

3rd only to water and sails/standing rigging (for me) would be not losing power. The completely dry bilge of the Amel’s is fantastic as it ensures you’re batteries won’t be destroyed by water ingress. 

The generator is a redundant system for power… put enough solar on so that this remains true. 





On Jul 7, 2021, at 16:25, Stéphane Meyer via groups.io <fredolo@...> wrote:

Hello,

Please just le me introduce myself quickly,

When I was 16 years old my father's best friend bought a SM brand new from the factory. I was stocked and we sailed onboard his SM around Toulon area in the 90's. Sadly he passed away before he could realize his dream to sail around the world.
I've been playing myself a lot with the idea and for me there is only one brand I would ever consider ...Amel. I just love so many things about these boats and I think you have to really love a boat considering what it takes to maintain it.
I'm not boat shopping yet, but will be within the next five years.

One question I always ask myself. Please forgive me being so clueless but I never owned myself a boat equipped with an autopilot system.

As an airline pilot I want redundancy for all the critical systems. On a boat especially solo, I guess the critical systems are the rudder, the AP system, at least one sail, water and food.

Could someone explain me properly how to achieve REAL redundancy in the AP system ? 

How does that work on a SM ?
Is the dual AP installed really fully redundant and would you go solo across an ocean on a standard equipped SM ? What about total electrical failure ?
Same question for the SN. How is it equipped ? Single or dual AP ?

What about the wind vane installation or another backup directly on the wheel ?

Thank you for sharing what you know about it.


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi, just remember that unlike an aircraft a boat wont fall out of the sky if the auto pilot fails, manual steering remains which I guess, while inconvenient, is the fail safe fall back redundancy.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 08 July 2021 at 08:25 "Stéphane Meyer via groups.io" <fredolo@...> wrote:

Hello,

Please just le me introduce myself quickly,

When I was 16 years old my father's best friend bought a SM brand new from the factory. I was stocked and we sailed onboard his SM around Toulon area in the 90's. Sadly he passed away before he could realize his dream to sail around the world.
I've been playing myself a lot with the idea and for me there is only one brand I would ever consider ...Amel. I just love so many things about these boats and I think you have to really love a boat considering what it takes to maintain it.
I'm not boat shopping yet, but will be within the next five years.

One question I always ask myself. Please forgive me being so clueless but I never owned myself a boat equipped with an autopilot system.

As an airline pilot I want redundancy for all the critical systems. On a boat especially solo, I guess the critical systems are the rudder, the AP system, at least one sail, water and food.

Could someone explain me properly how to achieve REAL redundancy in the AP system ? 

How does that work on a SM ?
Is the dual AP installed really fully redundant and would you go solo across an ocean on a standard equipped SM ? What about total electrical failure ?
Same question for the SN. How is it equipped ? Single or dual AP ?

What about the wind vane installation or another backup directly on the wheel ?

Thank you for sharing what you know about it.


Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Stéphane Meyer
 

Hello,

Please just le me introduce myself quickly,

When I was 16 years old my father's best friend bought a SM brand new from the factory. I was stocked and we sailed onboard his SM around Toulon area in the 90's. Sadly he passed away before he could realize his dream to sail around the world.
I've been playing myself a lot with the idea and for me there is only one brand I would ever consider ...Amel. I just love so many things about these boats and I think you have to really love a boat considering what it takes to maintain it.
I'm not boat shopping yet, but will be within the next five years.

One question I always ask myself. Please forgive me being so clueless but I never owned myself a boat equipped with an autopilot system.

As an airline pilot I want redundancy for all the critical systems. On a boat especially solo, I guess the critical systems are the rudder, the AP system, at least one sail, water and food.

Could someone explain me properly how to achieve REAL redundancy in the AP system ? 

How does that work on a SM ?
Is the dual AP installed really fully redundant and would you go solo across an ocean on a standard equipped SM ? What about total electrical failure ?
Same question for the SN. How is it equipped ? Single or dual AP ?

What about the wind vane installation or another backup directly on the wheel ?

Thank you for sharing what you know about it.


Re: Electrician Recommendation

Dominique Sery
 

Hello Richie,
I am in Greece (Kilada) and 
i just upgraded my A54 with Lithium batteries myself, with Victron batteries.
Everything works fine.
No issue.
Best
Dominique


Re: Bow thruster does not work in one direvtion

Sv Garulfo
 

Hi all,

That issue happened to us 3 years ago and we reported on the solution here (06/06/18   #40108 ). 


I would suggest carrying a spare relay as it happened to us again just recently. Note that we don’t use our thruster much, I don’t know if that helped delay the reoccurrence or instead accelerated it. 

In our bow thruster, the oem relay is by Albright (sales@...) in the UK (they could only provide model SW202-317 equivalent to SW202-260 installed).
An equivalent relay is available at evdrives.com  in the USA.


Hope that will help,


Best, 
Thomas
GARULFO 
A54-122
Tahiti

On 7 Jul 2021, at 03:00, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

I am glad it worked out and thanks for the photos. I was aware that this solution worked on at least two cases, but did not have the benefit of such exacting photos.

I am thinking that the life of this relay is probably about 10 - 12 years and if an owner has one in this age range disconnection from the motor, cleaning, and inspection is probably in order.

How many hours did it take?

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 2:13 AM Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:
Our first solution of just cleaning the control box, turned out to be a coincidental repair. The Bow Thruster did work for a few days and then stopped working in one direction again. After some research and assistance from the group, especially Doug Smith of Aventura and Bill Rouse, we narrowed down the issue to the main bowthruster relay. Yesterday we opened it up for inspection. The exterior of the relay was pristine, but found what is shown in the attached pictures. Some material has been physically transferred, from a process similar to welding, from some of the contacts in the relay, to the opposing contact in the relay. After a thorough cleaning of the buildup on th econtacts and other surfaces using wire brushers and application of CorrosionX to the springs, we have a fully operational Bowthruster. Now need to order a new one, as I don't believe we have as good a connection when the relay activates, due to the uneven surfaces of the contacts created by the arching that has been going on for a while. Thanks for all the shared knowledge.


Re: Air Conditioning issues

 

This is great news...wishing you the best.

FYI, maybe a start capacitor is out of spec, slightly increasing the start-up burst of power it is supposed to give. There are a number of suspects, but the easiest to get to is the start capacitors on the Climma pumps.

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 12:33 PM John Clanton <clanton@...> wrote:

Quick update on the Air Conditioning issue:

 

The breaker broke, that is clear.  It would not reset under power, it would not reset without power, and it would not reset once physically removed from the box.  Luckily, there is a fairly large marine electrics shop about a block away from the marina and they were able to order a replacement for me.

 

Educational note:  The young guy in the electrics shop tried to sell me a similar breaker with the same amp rating, but it had a different model number.  When I questioned him about the different model number (his English was just slightly better than my poor French), he shrugged his shoulders and said it must be that the broken one was older.  I was not satisfied.  He enlisted the advice of the master, who spoke no English at all, and he confirmed that what the young lad was trying to sell me was a “standard” breaker, and that I needed a “demurrage” (delay) breaker. 

 

At least in my boat, the breaker needed for the Air Conditioning system has a delay feature to accommodate short bursts of current required at pump/motor/compressor start up.  These are Schneider brand breakers manufactured in France and I have several C16 breakers, but the Climma system has a D16 breaker.  I do not know what the “C” stands for, but apparently the “D” stands for demurrage, the “16” indicates the amperage rating.  As I understand it, the Climma system has a seawater pump, a compressor, and a cold water closed circuit pump, all controlled by an e-brain.  Each of them have a different trigger to turn on and off depending on load.

 

All that being said, the system has been working perfectly for 24+ hours since installing the new breaker, but I have asked the local Climma rep to come by and give the system a once over to see what amps are being pulled by each component as I suspect the breaker didn’t just fail on its own.  I am happy that I could swap out one component and fix everything, but I suspect I only addressed a symptom and that the underlying issue is waiting for an inopportune time to show itself again.  BTW, any entrepreneurs who are looking for their next project, I suggest breakers, there is big money in breakers.

 

If further investigation yields more data, I will share it with the group, otherwise consider the problem solved.  Now on to the Orca Issue…..

 

 

Many thanks to all for suggestions,

 

John W. Clanton

S/V DEVEREUX, A55 No. 65

rehydrating in Antibes, France



Disclaimer

The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited.


Re: Air Conditioning issues

John Clanton
 

Quick update on the Air Conditioning issue:

 

The breaker broke, that is clear.  It would not reset under power, it would not reset without power, and it would not reset once physically removed from the box.  Luckily, there is a fairly large marine electrics shop about a block away from the marina and they were able to order a replacement for me.

 

Educational note:  The young guy in the electrics shop tried to sell me a similar breaker with the same amp rating, but it had a different model number.  When I questioned him about the different model number (his English was just slightly better than my poor French), he shrugged his shoulders and said it must be that the broken one was older.  I was not satisfied.  He enlisted the advice of the master, who spoke no English at all, and he confirmed that what the young lad was trying to sell me was a “standard” breaker, and that I needed a “demurrage” (delay) breaker. 

 

At least in my boat, the breaker needed for the Air Conditioning system has a delay feature to accommodate short bursts of current required at pump/motor/compressor start up.  These are Schneider brand breakers manufactured in France and I have several C16 breakers, but the Climma system has a D16 breaker.  I do not know what the “C” stands for, but apparently the “D” stands for demurrage, the “16” indicates the amperage rating.  As I understand it, the Climma system has a seawater pump, a compressor, and a cold water closed circuit pump, all controlled by an e-brain.  Each of them have a different trigger to turn on and off depending on load.

 

All that being said, the system has been working perfectly for 24+ hours since installing the new breaker, but I have asked the local Climma rep to come by and give the system a once over to see what amps are being pulled by each component as I suspect the breaker didn’t just fail on its own.  I am happy that I could swap out one component and fix everything, but I suspect I only addressed a symptom and that the underlying issue is waiting for an inopportune time to show itself again.  BTW, any entrepreneurs who are looking for their next project, I suggest breakers, there is big money in breakers.

 

If further investigation yields more data, I will share it with the group, otherwise consider the problem solved.  Now on to the Orca Issue…..

 

 

Many thanks to all for suggestions,

 

John W. Clanton

S/V DEVEREUX, A55 No. 65

rehydrating in Antibes, France



Disclaimer

The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited.

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