Date   

Re: Solar panels stainless steel mounted vs soft panels

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Pierre. I will do that. If I cant find my photos I will take some new.

Kind Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 05 September 2021 at 08:37 Pierre Blouin <blouinpdx@...> wrote:

Hi Danny, would you mind posting some pictures of your port side rail set-up, sounds very interesting.

thanks
-Pierre
SV Viva, SM374
Portland, OR


Re: Lithium battery costs

Jason Rutledge
 

I got 4 of the SOK 12v 206ah batteries, $1029 each.  7 year warranty and good reviews, BMS built in, and tear down videos online.  I looked at the battle born and many others.  I believe 6 can fit in the battery box.
--
Jason Rutledge
SV Liahona
SM 335
Fajardo, Puerto Rico


Re: Lithium battery costs

Jérémy
 

In march this year, I've ordered 68 LiFePo4 cells, 150Ah, in China, to build my new battery pack. I've received them last month, and I'm currently charging/balancing them. It will be 28.8KW (24V/1200Ah), and it cost me 3.430USD, including taxes and delivery to France, from China.

Of course there are many other components involved to make it a full/safe battery pack, including : properly sized wires, bus bars, fuses & fuses holder, contactor (about 250USD), and of course a shunt and a BMS (I choose Batrium, with 4x K9 Cells about 1.500USD)....

I would say, DIY is very time consuming (you have to read and learn a lot...), very slow (I've ordered parts from Australia, US, and China... in a context of a worldwide cargo traffic jam). But, it's wayyy cheaper, and you know exactly how all this works, how to monitor it, etc... and that's probably the main reason I went down this road !


Jérémy
SM#121
Le 04/09/2021 à 17:05, Paul Harries via groups.io a écrit :

Can anyone put the a price on typical USA manufactured and professionally installed lithium system vs order from china diy system?
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Re: Lithium battery costs

Paul Harries
 

I had seen their pricing
https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/sailboat-12v-600ah/
I was just wondering how much US based pro install of these was relative to china direct buy and diy install.

Ken on Aquarius did an excellent youtube run down on install some time ago, I know he had a fire, unclear if related to install or not.
My impression is that formal guidance on install process andcomponents is absent. 

As a potential buyer it seems that diy modification of electrical system, even by those who are very well qualified, could subsequently become an insurance headache.

Would be nice if Amel issued some retrospective manufacturer guidance on this issue.


--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Re: Solar panels stainless steel mounted vs soft panels

Pierre Blouin
 

Hi Danny, would you mind posting some pictures of your port side rail set-up, sounds very interesting.

thanks
-Pierre
SV Viva, SM374
Portland, OR


Re: Lithium battery costs

Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Hey there

Get the Battleborn batteries with their victron inverter package. Perhaps USD13k for 7.5kw useable through a 5kw inverter.

LifePo4 is the only safe way and Battleborn use very small safe cells that have battery cut offs on each unit to precent overcharge.

Avoid lithium ion of any description imho.

(i have no affiliation to this manufacturer)


Re: Amel Mango Hull #14 - the engine room was not built to be watertight?!!?

Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Indeed. I have absolutely no idea what the protocol for glassing fibreglass to cast iron might be. Does anybody know a youtube channel for fibreglass techniques?

Does fibreglass bond to a flexing cast iron keel?

I'm scared to rip out all of the foam sound insulation for fear of finding another ten holes in the bulkheads. I already found seven.

I guess when cruising the med, nobody cares about ocean safety.


Re: Amel Mango Hull #14 - the engine room was not built to be watertight?!!?

Justin Maguire
 

You’ll likely have to fiberglass and plywood will those holes… 

Crazy that they carved it all up. :-(


On Sep 4, 2021, at 11:26, Daniel Alexander Thompson <Thompson.Xander@...> wrote:

Thank you very much, Bill, for all your words, here. Really appreciated.

I found another hole in the engine room forward bulkhead, right at the iron keel. Somebody created an opeing through to join the two halfs of the bilge together, so that he might install a bilge pump that pulls water from both halfs!!

It is really rather shocking what an owner is capable of. There are about seven breaches to my engine room.

I have now come to the understanding that all of these breaches are owner innitiated and that the engine room was indeed watertight at time of contruction.

The question i have is, is it possible to install a gasket on the Mango aft cabin door and make the aft cabin watertight?

Best regards


Amel Mango - Making the aft cabin watertight?

Daniel Alexander Thompson
 
Edited

Dear All

Is it possible to install gaskets and door braces on the Amel Mango aft cabin door to create a watertight aft cabin a la SM?

Is the rest of the bulkhead sealed off from water ingress?

Would the door take the weight of the water? Perhaps a new door?

Why didn't Amel create a watertight aft cabin at the time of construction?

Best regards


Bill Rouse's Service

Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Dear All

Bill Rouse was an absolute God send. He put so much time into helping me with the purchase of this Mango and really warned me about the likely pitfalls of assuming ownership of such a modified vessel. His service is really very affordable, too.

I really cannot thank him enough for all his help.

It is such a shame that he has decided to discontinue his 24/7 Amel service for owners of Amel vessels manufactured before 1988.

I'll have to buy a Mango from 1988. There are a few of them.

Thanks Bill. 


Re: Amel Mango Hull #14 - the engine room was not built to be watertight?!!?

Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Thank you very much, Bill, for all your words, here. Really appreciated.

I found another hole in the engine room forward bulkhead, right at the iron keel. Somebody created an opeing through to join the two halfs of the bilge together, so that he might install a bilge pump that pulls water from both halfs!!

It is really rather shocking what an owner is capable of. There are about seven breaches to my engine room.

I have now come to the understanding that all of these breaches are owner innitiated and that the engine room was indeed watertight at time of contruction.

The question i have is, is it possible to install a gasket on the Mango aft cabin door and make the aft cabin watertight?

Best regards


Lithium battery costs

Paul Harries
 

Can anyone put the a price on typical USA manufactured and professionally installed lithium system vs order from china diy system?
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Re: lithium battery warning

Bill Kinney
 

People frequently describe insurance companies as "risk adverse," and while that's kind of true, what they really are is adverse to unknown or uncertain risks that they can't plug into their financial models.

In the absence of guidance (so far) from the ABYC on marine installations of lithium systems the underwriters do not know what a safe lithium system looks like.  Certainly if you go to any of the cruiser's forums you can read about people buying the cheapest possible, unbranded, Chinese made, lithium cells and pairing them with a home brew BMS. Given the amount of energy involved, I KNOW some of these system are very dangerous, but like the insurance underwriters, I don't know which ones.

It's not even a comment on the relative risk of Lithium vs Lead Acid.  Certainly there are loss risk associated with a standard FLA battery installation.  The difference is the marine industry KNOWS what a dangerous FLA battery install looks like, and every good surveyor can spot one.  The inherent risks of a lead-acid battery system are also well know from many decades of experience and are baked into the cost calculation for an insurance policy.  Right now, the lithium world is very much the wild west, and there is no way for the insurance underwriter to sort out the good, from the bad and the ugly.  At least for the foreseeable future, they can just say "No, Thank you."

There is also rational thinking behind making exceptions for systems installed by boat manufacturers, or professional installers using USA built parts.  If there is a latent defect in the product or installation that causes a loss, there is somebody else to share the financial pain with.  If that Chinese BMS installed by the boat owner causes a boat fire because of a basic design flaw nobody will never collect anything from them.

It sounds like at least some of these underwriters are waiting for a standard to issue from the ABYC so they can have a way of selecting safer installations, and avoiding those that none of us would want on our boat!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Re: Amel Mango Hull #14 - the engine room was not built to be watertight?!!?

Bill Kinney
 

Daniel,

First, congratulations on your new-to-you Mango!  And double kudos for seeing this as an issue. I am by NO means an expert on Mangos.  I have never been on one, so feel free to dismiss everything I say, I will not be at all offended, but I can discuss this part of Amel's philosophy of boat building and design.

With a boat this old, you can never assume that everything you find is "as-built."

As far as I know Amel is unique among yacht builders because when they decided that a compartment of the boat SHOULD never have water in it, they treated it as if water could never get in.  In "traditional" yacht design it was considered essential to always supply a path of water to travel to the bilge sump.  This makes having watertight compartments extremely difficult, if not impossible.  Amel looked at this and said, "There is no way for other than trivial amounts of water (from condensation, for example) to get into the aft cabin, the saloon, or the forward cabin."  Based on this, they did not set up the boats to drain to the bilge from these areas. While there are are certainly downsides to this approach, there are a lot of things to recommend it too.  First and foremost is if you find water in any of these normally dry areas, you know there is a leak that needs immediate attention!  If it just drained to the bilge and was pumped overboard, you might never notice until it got REALLY bad.

I see two possibilities with the situation you describe.  Amel MIGHT not yet fully committed to this philosophy, and "cheated" on the Mango, OR a previous owner made a modification to the boat.  If I had to bet, I'd go with option 2.  If someone had a significant amount of water leak in past the rudder packing (for example), they might have thought it best to just cut a hole and have it drain, instead of fixing the problem.  In the Amels I have inspected, cutting holes in the watertight bulkheads by some one of the previous owners is among the most common things I see that show a lack of understanding of the "Amel Way."

I believe that Amel assumed that an inspection of all the bilges in the boat was a routine, at least daily if not every watch-change.  They assumed if water was found where it should not be, the problem was fixed at the source, not just the symptom.  This strikes me as just good seamanship, and common sense.

As always, my opinion is worth what you paid for it...

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Re: lithium battery warning

Mark McGovern
 

Justin,

They didn't give a rationale.  My guess is because there is no justifiable rationale just a knee-jerk reaction not a very well thought out policy to reduce their exposure.  Especially given that I can have all the lithium ion batteries that I want on my boat in my phones, tablets, electric bikes, electric scooters, power tools, etc. and they will happily insure me.  While I will stipulate that these are all much smaller batteries than a house bank, they are also made from much more flammable chemistries than LiFePO4 batteries.  Given how flammable fiberglass is, I'm pretty sure any one of those devices could set your boat on fire and sink it.  Certainly the batteries used in some of the cheap e-bikes you find on eBay and Amazon could do it.  They didn't ask me if I had any of those aboard.

Here's an interesting thread on just such an incident from earlier this year on Crusier's Forum.  Interestingly, the underwriter was, you guessed it, Markel.  And the insurance was the Jackline Policy from the Gowrie Group:  https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f166/explosions-fires-rescue-at-sea-229844.html


--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Belfast, ME USA


Amel Mango Hull #14 - the engine room was not built to be watertight?!!?

Daniel Alexander Thompson
 
Edited

(EDIT: i realise now that the engine room was built to be watertight and the prior owners have drilled all manner of holes in it)

Dear Group

I have just purchased Amel Mango hull #14. I took delivery of her about three days ago.

I have been rampaging through every nook and cranny of this boat for two days, and have found something which has left me aghast: the engine room was not built to be watertight. (EDIT: i realise now that the engine room was built to be watertight and the prior owners have drilled all manner of holes in it)

There is a small opening, just above the propshaft, in the aft cabin bulkhead. This opening (about 10 inches square) allows the aft cabin hull floor to drain directly into the engine room bilge. I find it very weird. Amel have gone to great length to vent the engine room far above the waterline. There is a watertight door and hatch. What on earth?

I want to make the engine room watertight. Does anybody know anybody who has done such a job on a Mango?

Best regards


Re: lithium battery warning

Justin Maguire
 

Wow…

But they’re somehow ok with new boats with factory installed lithium? 

What’s the rationale?


On Sep 3, 2021, at 09:39, Mark McGovern <mfmcgovern@...> wrote:

Gowrie Group told us the same thing earlier this year when we tried to get a quote from them.  If you have Lithium batteries installed on you boat and your boat value is greater than US$150,000, Markel will not underwrite an insurance policy.  The brand did not matter.  Self-installed or "professionally" installed did not matter.

I was very happy with the service that I received from Gary Golden at Manifest Marine:  Gary@... 

I guess you never really know how happy you are with your insurance policy until you have to use it.  Thankfully, I have not!

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Belfast, ME USA


Re: lithium battery warning

Mark McGovern
 

Gowrie Group told us the same thing earlier this year when we tried to get a quote from them.  If you have Lithium batteries installed on you boat and your boat value is greater than US$150,000, Markel will not underwrite an insurance policy.  The brand did not matter.  Self-installed or "professionally" installed did not matter.

I was very happy with the service that I received from Gary Golden at Manifest Marine:  Gary@... 

I guess you never really know how happy you are with your insurance policy until you have to use it.  Thankfully, I have not!

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Belfast, ME USA


Re: A55 Location of Mizzen Mast Drip Box

 

Joerg,

Thanks.

Bill

Bill, most of the overhead panels come off using the suction tool stowed over the galley sink.  Some of the soft ones you can lever off using this tool.    Some panels could There is also an overhead panel outside the head on port which hides the fuses for the mizzen furling.  May you could access the box from there?   


Joerg Esdorn

A55 #53 Kincsem

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 9:32 AM Joerg Esdorn via groups.io <jhe1313=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Bill, most of the overhead panels come off using the suction tool stowed over the galley sink.  Some of the soft ones you can lever off using this tool.    Some panels could There is also an overhead panel outside the head on port which hides the fuses for the mizzen furling.  May you could access the box from there?   


Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently in La Rochelle 


Re: A55 Location of Mizzen Mast Drip Box

Joerg Esdorn
 

Bill, most of the overhead panels come off using the suction tool stowed over the galley sink.  Some of the soft ones you can lever off using this tool.    Some panels could There is also an overhead panel outside the head on port which hides the fuses for the mizzen furling.  May you could access the box from there?   


Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently in La Rochelle 

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