Date   

24V+ Isolated Ground Leak

Paul Stascavage
 

Almost since purchasing our boat, we had a small negative leak that was indicated by the Masse Light.  The electrician in Martinique could not locate the source easily, but said that it was very small and to just keep an eye on the zincs.

Although I tried located the source of this myself many times by disconnecting individual bonding wires, I was never able to locate it.  However, our zincs would get us through 2 years of service with what I considered normal loss (about 30 - 40%) so it didn’t worry me much.

A few months ago, the Masse Light stopped illuminating and I thought maybe something may have fixed itself (wouldn’t that be great?).  But a few weeks ago, when I dove on the zincs, I noticed they had excessive loss and they are slightly less than a year old.

This morning I got out my volt meter, and we do still have a slight negative leak of about 0.009 volts when connecting the voltmeter to the negative post on the battery bank and the bonding wire on the rudder post, but when I checked the positive side, there was a full 25 volts leak indicated!

We recently had our alternator rebuilt so I disconcerted that and found no difference.  I also recently changed the switches on the windless, so I am going to disconnect those and check there as well.  We also had a new VHF radio installed and I will check that, but as that is 12 volts I don’t think that will be it.

I am definitely not electrically proficient, but what boggles me is that when I turn off the battery bank switches, I still show the leakage when testing from the bank.  How is it that with the battery bank isolated, I could still have current going to the bonding system?  What am I missing here?

Any insight and suggestions regarding where I should logically begin my search would be greatly appreciated. I am currently most uncomfortable with that kind of voltage in the bonding system.

Thank you in advance for any and all replies.

All the best,

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Currently Exploring City Island, NY


www.RitaKathryn.com


Re: Trouble-shooting MHU B&G213

Ian Townsend
 

After all the trouble and expense of trying to fix two B&G MHUs, I finally solved this problem by replacing it with an Airmar 220WX weather station.





-------- Original message --------
From: CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
Date: 2021-09-06 1:03 p.m. (GMT-05:00)
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification" <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trouble-shooting MHU B&G213

Guillaume,

I had almost the same problem and did all that you did and more, eventually replacing every removable component on the 213MHU.

I went up and down the mast 10-12 times.

Finally, I replaced the 213MHU Mount and wire (25m). The wire is permanently fixed to the mount. Thankfully Dan Carlson helped, or actually did a lot of that replacement, but being the one up the mast.

Good luck, the 213MHU is still the best and longest-lasting MHU you can buy...all of the others are "throw-away" units, meaning when they fail you throw them away.

image.png


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 7:00 AM Ian Park <parkianj@...> wrote:
I had a similar problem last year. New transducer. It turned out to be the screen display that was faulty. That was a Raymarine setup. The local agent lent me a working transducer with a short lead to plug into the display which proved which end was the problem.

Ian. ‘Ocean Hobo’ SN96  - Milford Haven






File /45-D01504-en Fimtec Technical Information.pdf uploaded #file-notice

main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification <noreply@...>
 

The following files have been uploaded to the Files area of the main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io group.

By: Mark McGovern <mfmcgovern@...>

Description:
FilmTec Reverse Osmosis Membranes Technical Manual Watermaker


Re: Trouble-shooting MHU B&G213

 

Guillaume,

I had almost the same problem and did all that you did and more, eventually replacing every removable component on the 213MHU.

I went up and down the mast 10-12 times.

Finally, I replaced the 213MHU Mount and wire (25m). The wire is permanently fixed to the mount. Thankfully Dan Carlson helped, or actually did a lot of that replacement, but being the one up the mast.

Good luck, the 213MHU is still the best and longest-lasting MHU you can buy...all of the others are "throw-away" units, meaning when they fail you throw them away.

image.png


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 7:00 AM Ian Park <parkianj@...> wrote:
I had a similar problem last year. New transducer. It turned out to be the screen display that was faulty. That was a Raymarine setup. The local agent lent me a working transducer with a short lead to plug into the display which proved which end was the problem.

Ian. ‘Ocean Hobo’ SN96  - Milford Haven






Re: Solar panels stainless steel mounted vs soft panels

Gregory Shea
 

JB, Danny,
The Frenchman who installed my rail mounted panels had an interesting way of leading the wiring inside the boat. 
You can see the waterproof gland in the gunwhale which he then led into the conduit in the corner of the hull to deck joint. From there he could take the wiring anywhere in the boat, very easily.
Interesting approach.

Greg Shea
Sharki 133 Cap des iles
image1.jpeg


On Sep 6, 2021, at 6:17 PM, JB Duler <jbduler@...> wrote:

Danny and Greg, thank you so much! I did not know anything about that Swedish company (I had seen their table).
Great find and a fantastic resource for me.
--
John Bernard "JB" Duler
San Francisco
Meltem # 19, Western Med


QSails, Turkey and Incidence Sails, France

 

To: All members of the Amel Owners Group
CC: Emrah Oge Owner and Manager of QSails

I apologize for the length of this email, but I feel responsible to summarize all that I can tell you about this.

In the last 6-9 months QSails has experienced some of the worst things that any company can experience, most of it as a direct result of COVID, some indirectly from COVIS with the disrupted Supply Chain. They have been in business for 33 years and I believe that they will make it through this period. They have disappointed about 10 Amel owners in the last 6 months with delivery issues, with about half of those being totally out of QSails' control. FedEx and UPS share the blame on about half of the shipments, losing parts, losing the complete shipment, or damaging contents, then failing to pay the claim submitted by QSails. In each of the cases that I am aware of, QSails has committed to fulfilling the order at significant costs to them and without payment from the shippers. In a few cases, the Amel owner was to blame for the shipping issue because they signed for the complete order but later found out that there was another box that was not delivered. QSails committed to cover the costs. In another case when the owner opened the box, he found the sails damaged. Please check your order before you sign for it. Additionally, the Supply Chain is currently terrible. Previously reliable manufacturers like Dimension Polyant (sailcloth including HydraNet) are completely unreliable.

I believe that QSails will pull through this difficult period and I believe that orders and obligations will be fulfilled. In the last 5 years, and based on my recommendation for quality and price, QSails has sold sails totaling over 1 million euros to Amel owners. I know that each owner saved as compared to the competitive bids they received, and almost everyone was completely satisfied with the quality.

I have been aware of the QSails delivery issue for several months and I have been shepherding the orders for those Amel owners. Most of the orders have been completed, but there are some outstanding that I believe will be completed within weeks. It would have been reckless for me to have made a derogatory announcement about QSails because that could have resulted in many orders never being fulfilled causing significant losses to many people, and potentially severe damage to QSails. I have communicated directly to those owners that I knew were impacted, but I was unaware of Jose's order...I am now and I just sent an email to QSail.

I believe that I should have two choices for purchasing sails for my clients. I am happy to say, that I now have two Preferred Vendors for my clients. As I did with QSails, the negotiated prices are available to anyone who is a member of the Amel Yacht Owners Group. The newest sailmaker that I have negotiated discounted prices with is Incidence Sails, France, supplier to Amel. The Incidence Sails Preferred Vendor pricing is available to my clients and all members of the Amel Yacht Owners Group. More information on details of construction, quality, and pricing for QSails & Incidence by following these links:

Or you can write me anytime for specific information.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


Re: Solar panels stainless steel mounted vs soft panels

Gregory Shea
 

JB, 
If you buy the NOA brackets and tracks, let me know at gmshea@.... I modified the brackets to control both the friction on the slider and the tightness of the rotation (accreditation Graham Johnston Sharki 196 Zephyr). I can share the mods with you, but you will need a bracket in front of you to understand them. Unfortunately, I'm flying home from Greece tomorrow and I don't have any photos.  

Greg Shea
Sharki 133 Cap des iles
KIlada


From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of JB Duler <jbduler@...>
Sent: Monday, September 6, 2021 11:17 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Solar panels stainless steel mounted vs soft panels
 
Danny and Greg, thank you so much! I did not know anything about that Swedish company (I had seen their table).
Great find and a fantastic resource for me.
--
John Bernard "JB" Duler
San Francisco
Meltem # 19, Western Med


Re: Maxprop maintenance grease kit

Helen and Kostas Yuvanidi
 

Dear Jose, 

The Maxprop dealer in Greece is Kafetzidakis sails in Piraeus. I’ve attached a link which has their number etc. They should have everything you need and are very friendly and helpful.

Best regards,
Helen and Kostas Ioannidis 
Meditation SM 29 of 1990 based in Aegina , Greece 



On 6 Sep 2021, at 6:16 PM, Jose Alegria <Josealegr@...> wrote:


Dear  Amelians 


Any advice where can I buy the Maxprop maintenance grease kit at Greece? Or just the screws and O-rings?
Thank you


Jose Alegria
Amel55 #03-MERIT
+351918663037
Josealegr@...



Re: Solar panels stainless steel mounted vs soft panels

JB Duler
 

Danny and Greg, thank you so much! I did not know anything about that Swedish company (I had seen their table).
Great find and a fantastic resource for me.
--
John Bernard "JB" Duler
San Francisco
Meltem # 19, Western Med


Maxprop maintenance grease kit

Jose Alegria
 


Dear  Amelians 


Any advice where can I buy the Maxprop maintenance grease kit at Greece? Or just the screws and O-rings?
Thank you


Jose Alegria
Amel55 #03-MERIT
+351918663037
Josealegr@...



Re: Solar panels stainless steel mounted vs soft panels

 

Paul, very well thought out and great power added.

As you are aware, the solar arch we designed and built with Emek Marin in Turkey has been installed on over 100 SMs and 54s, but BeBe 387, was the first. If I had to do it over again today on a SM, I would do what you have done and saved money. I tend to lean toward Solbian as the supplier for ultra-thin flexible panels and really like all of the accessories and especially the custom panel fabrication that they offer.

Bravo!

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 8:32 AM Paul Stascavage via groups.io <pstas2003=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Like with everything on a boat, there are pros and cons to anything you do.

I was very glad that we took the advise of Bill R and others who said, “don’t make any changes for at least a year...”  

We wanted to add solar when we purchased our SM back in 2016 , but we waited over 2 years to implement the modification, and I am so glad we did,as the result was a set-up that we are completely happy with.  It takes time to review what others have done, look at options, evaluate your needs, and determine what is important for you and your use of power and your use of the boat.

For us, we really did not want to add an arch for a number of reasons.  Semi-flex panels offered us the best solution for our needs.  Initially, we added 680 watts using (4) 170 watt SunPower panels.  We had awning tracks sewn into our new bimini, and bolt rope sewn onto the edges of the panels as we are not big fans of velcro or zippers.  This set-up allows the panels to be easily slid into place and installed or removed in minutes.

The initial wattage met with our daily power consumption, but it was not enough to make up for cloudy days or when our consumption rate increased for some reason.  Last winter we added (2) 110 watt panels (also from SunPower) for a total of 900 watts on the bimini.  

We typically see between 3 to 4 kWh per day for all the panels depending on the amount of sun and any shading from the masts.  Most days it is closer to 4 kWh.  The 6 panels are divided into 2 sets of 3 panels in series with the 3 on the starboard side going to a Victron 100/15 MPPT controller and the 3 on the port side going to a separate but identical controller.

I can’t say how these would compare to hard fixed panels, but for us they serve our needs and they are out of the way. Our daily consumption is approximately 120 amp hours on anchor, and the current set-up (no pun intended) has allowed us to only turn on Onan to run the 240 volt accessories.

All the best,

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Currently Exploring City Island, NY

www.RitaKathryn.com


Re: Solar panels stainless steel mounted vs soft panels

Justin Maguire
 

Very nice installation 


On Sep 6, 2021, at 06:32, Paul Stascavage via groups.io <pstas2003@...> wrote:

Like with everything on a boat, there are pros and cons to anything you do.

I was very glad that we took the advise of Bill R and others who said, “don’t make any changes for at least a year...”  

We wanted to add solar when we purchased our SM back in 2016 , but we waited over 2 years to implement the modification, and I am so glad we did,as the result was a set-up that we are completely happy with.  It takes time to review what others have done, look at options, evaluate your needs, and determine what is important for you and your use of power and your use of the boat.

For us, we really did not want to add an arch for a number of reasons.  Semi-flex panels offered us the best solution for our needs.  Initially, we added 680 watts using (4) 170 watt SunPower panels.  We had awning tracks sewn into our new bimini, and bolt rope sewn onto the edges of the panels as we are not big fans of velcro or zippers.  This set-up allows the panels to be easily slid into place and installed or removed in minutes.

The initial wattage met with our daily power consumption, but it was not enough to make up for cloudy days or when our consumption rate increased for some reason.  Last winter we added (2) 110 watt panels (also from SunPower) for a total of 900 watts on the bimini.  

We typically see between 3 to 4 kWh per day for all the panels depending on the amount of sun and any shading from the masts.  Most days it is closer to 4 kWh.  The 6 panels are divided into 2 sets of 3 panels in series with the 3 on the starboard side going to a Victron 100/15 MPPT controller and the 3 on the port side going to a separate but identical controller.

I can’t say how these would compare to hard fixed panels, but for us they serve our needs and they are out of the way. Our daily consumption is approximately 120 amp hours on anchor, and the current set-up (no pun intended) has allowed us to only turn on Onan to run the 240 volt accessories.

All the best,

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Currently Exploring City Island, NY

www.RitaKathryn.com

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Re: Solar panels stainless steel mounted vs soft panels

Paul Stascavage
 

Like with everything on a boat, there are pros and cons to anything you do.

I was very glad that we took the advise of Bill R and others who said, “don’t make any changes for at least a year...”  

We wanted to add solar when we purchased our SM back in 2016 , but we waited over 2 years to implement the modification, and I am so glad we did,as the result was a set-up that we are completely happy with.  It takes time to review what others have done, look at options, evaluate your needs, and determine what is important for you and your use of power and your use of the boat.

For us, we really did not want to add an arch for a number of reasons.  Semi-flex panels offered us the best solution for our needs.  Initially, we added 680 watts using (4) 170 watt SunPower panels.  We had awning tracks sewn into our new bimini, and bolt rope sewn onto the edges of the panels as we are not big fans of velcro or zippers.  This set-up allows the panels to be easily slid into place and installed or removed in minutes.

The initial wattage met with our daily power consumption, but it was not enough to make up for cloudy days or when our consumption rate increased for some reason.  Last winter we added (2) 110 watt panels (also from SunPower) for a total of 900 watts on the bimini.  

We typically see between 3 to 4 kWh per day for all the panels depending on the amount of sun and any shading from the masts.  Most days it is closer to 4 kWh.  The 6 panels are divided into 2 sets of 3 panels in series with the 3 on the starboard side going to a Victron 100/15 MPPT controller and the 3 on the port side going to a separate but identical controller.

I can’t say how these would compare to hard fixed panels, but for us they serve our needs and they are out of the way. Our daily consumption is approximately 120 amp hours on anchor, and the current set-up (no pun intended) has allowed us to only turn on Onan to run the 240 volt accessories.

All the best,

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Currently Exploring City Island, NY

www.RitaKathryn.com


Re: Q sails unacceptable delay

Barry Connor
 

Hi All,

Just an update:
Very quick response from QSails.
Emrah at QSails just accepted my order condition. Super fast response.
He advised of many delays with supply and shipping company problems with sails going missing in shipping and having to file insurance claims.
Payment by my Visa credit card is a safe way to pay as if the supplier does not deliver you can claim a refund up to 6 months. 

Best Regards 

Barry and Penny
“SV Lady Penelope II”
Amel 54. #17
Le Marin Marina 
Martinique 

On Sep 6, 2021, at 08:47, JB Duler <jbduler@...> wrote:

Jose, I never ordered from them but what I can tell you is that the supply chain is a mess worldwide.

We own a marine business with a plant in Rhode Island. This summer, at the peak of the season we had to simply stop deliveries and we could not get raw materials anymore.

Our business is low tech, no chips, no fancy electronics. We need aluminum bars and plastic for the extrusion machines.

The suplly chain for plastics/fancy fibers (Polyant , Mylar, carbon fiberss) or other products is clogged. Add transportation logjam for containers. The only exception is air shipping. I assume than less travelers --> empty planes --> planes could be converted to cargo shipping. But for our business shipping by plane is prohibitive. I assume it would be the same for QSails to get rolls of cloths by plane would be too expensive.

I have been trying to buy a downwind SUP  paddle since February. One manufacturer has a plant in China, the other in Thailand. I simply can't get one.

Good luck. Hopefully they are upfront about their problems and can tell you whether it comes from them (everybody is buying boats and secondary homes) or from their suppliers.


--
John Bernard "JB" Duler
San Francisco
Meltem # 19, Western Med


Re: Q sails unacceptable delay

JB Duler
 

Jose, I never ordered from them but what I can tell you is that the supply chain is a mess worldwide.

We own a marine business with a plant in Rhode Island. This summer, at the peak of the season we had to simply stop deliveries and we could not get raw materials anymore.

Our business is low tech, no chips, no fancy electronics. We need aluminum bars and plastic for the extrusion machines.

The suplly chain for plastics/fancy fibers (Polyant , Mylar, carbon fiberss) or other products is clogged. Add transportation logjam for containers. The only exception is air shipping. I assume than less travelers --> empty planes --> planes could be converted to cargo shipping. But for our business shipping by plane is prohibitive. I assume it would be the same for QSails to get rolls of cloths by plane would be too expensive.

I have been trying to buy a downwind SUP  paddle since February. One manufacturer has a plant in China, the other in Thailand. I simply can't get one.

Good luck. Hopefully they are upfront about their problems and can tell you whether it comes from them (everybody is buying boats and secondary homes) or from their suppliers.


--
John Bernard "JB" Duler
San Francisco
Meltem # 19, Western Med


Re: Amel Mango Hull #14 - the engine room was not built to be watertight?!!?

Arlo
 

I have been onboard 5 mangoes now inspecting them, and have lived aboard hull number 46 for 4 years now. The Mango was not built with a watertight engine room. Not a bad thing IMHO. The "rectangular holes" for the interconnect for the bilges both forward and aft at the bottom are factory designed and built by Amel. 


Re: Trouble-shooting MHU B&G213

Ian Park
 

I had a similar problem last year. New transducer. It turned out to be the screen display that was faulty. That was a Raymarine setup. The local agent lent me a working transducer with a short lead to plug into the display which proved which end was the problem.

Ian. ‘Ocean Hobo’ SN96 - Milford Haven


Re: Q sails unacceptable delay

Barry Connor
 

Hi Jose,

I just got an updated quotation 2 weeks ago for a new Genoa in Hydranet from Q Sails with a promised 3 week delivery by FedEx to Martinique. I could not get it in time from them when I crossed in late 2019.
I was going to pay upfront using my Visa Card when Bill advised to wait a few months as they were experiencing problems and had delays with shipping. 
I will contact them again now and confront them directly as I was believing them that they would deliver on time within the promised 3 weeks.
I might suggest to them a 50% deposit using my credit card with a guaranteed credit card refund if they miss the agreed shipping date.
I can afford to wait as we will not be sailing until next year as all the Caribbean Islands are very difficult with entry.
Thanks again Bill for your heads up.

Very Best 

Barry and Penny
“SV Lady Penelope II”
Amel 54.  #17
Le Marin Marina 
Martinique 


On Sep 6, 2021, at 07:23, Alexandre Uster von Baar via groups.io <uster@...> wrote:



Don’t be surprised if your post is removed to write negatively… 


Mine was a few months ago… while it was written in all fairness with documentation…

Still haven’t digest that one….

On Monday, September 6, 2021, 01:24:32 AM AST, Jose Alegria <josealegr@...> wrote:


Dear Amelians

Anyone know what's up with Q-sails.
I ordered a set of sails 3-4 months ago;  I made the full payment including shipping and I am 45 days past the deadline not having any concrete information about the arrival date of the sails
It is your experience too?

Thanks

Jose Alegria
Amel55 #03-MERIT
+351918663037
Josealegr@...



Re: Persistent TMD22 overheating

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good morning Pat, 

Useless to say I was more than upset…. That mechanic took me for a ride… 

Can’t say who it was since it is against forum policy…. 

I wish you luck….

On Sunday, September 5, 2021, 05:48:30 PM AST, Patrick McAneny via groups.io <sailw32@...> wrote:


Alex, That sounds like money not well spent. In my case I had checked my engine many times with two different inferred guns and had temps well over 200 F., especially at higher rpms. 
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Alexandre Uster von Baar via groups.io <uster@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Sep 5, 2021 5:35 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Persistent TMD22 overheating

In 2015 I spent a fortune ($8000) to solve a false overheating…. 
Cleaned intercooler, rebuilt injectors, gage calibrated, etc.  
At the end, it was simply the wire from the engine to the gage which, with age, had higher resistance…. The mechanic never find the cause, I only found it, by putting a 2nd temperature gage…. 

Sincerely, Alexandre

On Sunday, September 5, 2021, 01:02:39 PM AST, Jose Venegas via groups.io <josegvenegas@...> wrote:


Pat,

Can you be more specific about the sleeve, or lack of, that caused the overheating of your Volvo TMD22?  Ipanema has persistent overheating at high RPM after cleaning with BB both heat exchangers and having ruled out most of the potential causes described by Bill Rouse on his manual that he recently posted and I am copying below.

BTW, I would add two more potential causes:
1) A small leak of air into the freshwater pathway upstream of the pump. This leak only shows as a small collection of salt around the hose connections when the engine is not running but is enough to allow entry of air that increases as the engine RMP increase.  A similar entry can occur through the seal of the seawater strainer cap.  The effect can be exaggerated by a minor restriction of the pathway upstream of the leak.  I recently fixed such a leak and the engine temperature came down (205 F) but I think it is still too high.

2) A calibration error on the temperature sensor/gauge system.  This gave me a difficult time a year ago as I was arriving in Curazao and was caused by corrosion of electrical connections.  
   
Quoted from Bill Rouse's Post:

Possible Causes of Overheating:

1. Restricted seawater flow anywhere in the pathway beginning with the seawater entry into the sea chest to the seawater and exhaust exit through the hull. 
a. Sea Chest restriction
b. Hose restriction or kink
c. Restriction at the input to the in-line transmission oil cooler, if equipped
d. Failing seawater pump and/or failing seawater impeller
e. Restricted Exhaust Elbow
2. Restricted Coolant water flow
a. Failing coolant water pump
b. Failing Pressure Cap (should be replaced every 2 years)
c. Failing and/or clogged Heat Exchanger
3. Incorrect coolant ratio, but this is usually not a major contributor but will contribute somewhat.
4. Incorrect V-Belt tensioning with the V-Belt turning the coolant water pump
5. Failing Coolant Thermostat (not opening completely)
6. Other engine issues"
 


Re: Q sails unacceptable delay

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Don’t be surprised if your post is removed to write negatively… 


Mine was a few months ago… while it was written in all fairness with documentation…

Still haven’t digest that one….

On Monday, September 6, 2021, 01:24:32 AM AST, Jose Alegria <josealegr@...> wrote:


Dear Amelians

Anyone know what's up with Q-sails.
I ordered a set of sails 3-4 months ago;  I made the full payment including shipping and I am 45 days past the deadline not having any concrete information about the arrival date of the sails
It is your experience too?

Thanks

Jose Alegria
Amel55 #03-MERIT
+351918663037
Josealegr@...


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