Date   

Re: Climma air conditioning unit

Paul Brown
 

Hi

My fwd and two saloon systems are compact and my aft system is a split system all with independent fans. I have had technical advice from a service technician that inspected the issue and he believes it is a faulty relay. He suggests a new control board or if possible to have the relay replaced.

I am hoping to have the faulty relay replaced as a new board is an expensive solution but maybe my only option.

thank you for your response 

regards Paul- Fortuna II Amel 55 #17


Re: What to do with LiFePO4 batteries when the boat is layed up?

Scott SV Tengah
 

Joerg,

Avoiding charging the batteries to 100% during normal use is a completely different conversation than whether to leave batteries at high SOC or 50% SOC during wintering/long term storage. I know that Victron and likely Mastervolt do NOT charge to 100% even during normal use. It's obvious if you look at the absorption voltages preset by Victron lithium charging profiles and then compare it to what is considered 100% charged. I surmise that it's the same with Mastervolt, so the respective battery monitors are telling you it's 100% when it's really in the low-mid 90% SOC. They do this because the additional capacity going between 90%-100% SOC is more than offset by the faster deterioration of the batteries. 

Regarding Mastervolt batteries "being different in design from other manufacturers batteries", I am a bit skeptical considering actual product teardowns indicate that they use Winston prismatic cells, just like Victron and just like the guy who spent a fraction of what we spent for our batteries. A not-so-hidden secret of these expensive batteries is that they use the same Chinese cells that others get at a 75% discount to build their own homebrew lifepo4 batteries. Of course, the internal connections, BMS system, warranty and hence safety and reliability are theoretically better and the system is more integrated, which is why I paid a premium for my Victrons. But I'd be very skeptical when the guy selling you the batteries at a huge profit tries to tell you that theirs is different somehow. I am under no illusion that the battery cells in my Victrons or your MV are made of unobtanium or handbuilt by an MIT engineer - they are Chinese Winston prismatic cells that are subject to the same limitations.

Trying to achieve a desired SOC by specifying voltage is difficult for reasons mentioned earlier. By setting a lower float voltage, I believe that all you're doing is setting the lower limit of voltage that the batteries will go to while connected to the charger. The absorption voltage/duration is really what determines the high SOC limit. Give it a try and set your float voltage to 24v and see if it still charges to 78%.

Let me try to dig up those papers for you. Here are the results of a simplified test that is much less dry.


To be fair, he's comparing 50% vs. 100% SOC but it's probably safe to assume that the damage associated with high SOC storage is not a step function. 

At the end of the day, it's our individual boats, so we must do what we think is best. I find these engineering guys sometimes cross the border into marketing, so I always trust, but verify through objective means.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 7:16 PM Joerg Esdorn via groups.io <jhe1313=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I have discussed the issue with a senior technician at MV support.  His explanation for the recommendation to keep the batteries at 100% with a float voltage of 27.0V was that their batteries are different in design from other manufacturers' batteries.  They are made for being kept at full charge over long periods.  I further asked him if I wanted to keep them at a lower SOC, how to achieve that.  His response was to change the float voltage to 26.5 from 27.0V rather than program an event that turns the charger off at 80% SOC.  The event will result in a lot of switching which would be avoided with the adjustment of the float voltage.   I've tried to do this and the SOC essentially goes to about 78% with the charger connected.  So presumably you could set the float voltage to even less than 26.5V and end up with a SOC lower than 78%.  

I would be very interested in seeing the research paper(s) showing what the best SOC for long term storage is.  I am very hesitant setting the SOC for the winter at lower than 80% because of the risk that something will go wrong with the charger and the battery will go to the 20% cutoff point.   I also wonder whether it's worth avoiding charging the batteries to 100%.  I bought these batteries among other things to have much more capacity available than before.  I really don't want to restrict the range of SOC I can use to get some uncertain benefit on longevity.  MV says the batteries are good for 2000 cycles.  My Easyview monitor tells me I've used up 23 of those over the last 3 months on the boat.   At that rate, I will kick the bucket before the batteries!  

Joerg Esdorn
A55 Kincsem
Currently cruising Brittany

 


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Air con circulating pump

Stefan Schaufert
 

Dear Nick,

thx a lot for your fast response.

To the forum:
Does anyone else use Domaire pumps?
If so, how satisfied are you?

Best regards
Stefan
A54 #119 Lady Charlyette, currently La Palma - Canaries


Re: Climma air conditioning unit

Arno Luijten
 

Hi Bill,

If he would have the chiller system, that unit would not carry a fan. So either his fan unit in the saloon is broken or he has the stand alone units.
I seem to remember the early 55’s had the same system as the 54 and SM. The later models had a central chiller unit.
Remains the fact that he should get technical expertise as there many potentials causes for this problem.

Kind regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


Re: What to do with LiFePO4 batteries when the boat is layed up?

Joerg Esdorn
 

I have discussed the issue with a senior technician at MV support.  His explanation for the recommendation to keep the batteries at 100% with a float voltage of 27.0V was that their batteries are different in design from other manufacturers' batteries.  They are made for being kept at full charge over long periods.  I further asked him if I wanted to keep them at a lower SOC, how to achieve that.  His response was to change the float voltage to 26.5 from 27.0V rather than program an event that turns the charger off at 80% SOC.  The event will result in a lot of switching which would be avoided with the adjustment of the float voltage.   I've tried to do this and the SOC essentially goes to about 78% with the charger connected.  So presumably you could set the float voltage to even less than 26.5V and end up with a SOC lower than 78%.  

I would be very interested in seeing the research paper(s) showing what the best SOC for long term storage is.  I am very hesitant setting the SOC for the winter at lower than 80% because of the risk that something will go wrong with the charger and the battery will go to the 20% cutoff point.   I also wonder whether it's worth avoiding charging the batteries to 100%.  I bought these batteries among other things to have much more capacity available than before.  I really don't want to restrict the range of SOC I can use to get some uncertain benefit on longevity.  MV says the batteries are good for 2000 cycles.  My Easyview monitor tells me I've used up 23 of those over the last 3 months on the boat.   At that rate, I will kick the bucket before the batteries!  

Joerg Esdorn
A55 Kincsem
Currently cruising Brittany

 


Re: Climma air conditioning unit

Barry Connor
 

Hi Paul,
I am just getting my saloon ac checked this arvo.
Mine is water cooled, the only fan is at the back of the cooling condenser that blows the air into the cabin. 
I could ask and have the guy give me the voltage if this helps. 
Please advise 
Best Bazza


On Oct 4, 2021, at 11:29, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Paul,

Most Amel owners in this Group have either Climma Compact or Climma Split ACs. I believe that you have a Climma Chiller System.

The only reason I interject this into the thread is that you may get some replies from other owners who are not aware that yours is significantly different than theirs. Maybe you were also not aware?

It sounds like you need to seek support from a trained tech because 160 volts can kill. If you are in Europe, start with customerservice@.... I found them quite helpful.

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 6:43 AM Paul Brown <feeder.brown@...> wrote:
Hello, can anyone assist please:

My Amel 55 has a Climma AC unit in the saloon and fwd cabin that appears to have 160v across its fan relay which is causing the fan motor to be energised without the unit being switched on. In other words there is a hum coming from the fan motor (the fan is not spinning) which would probably burn the motor out if the unit is not switched off at its circuit breaker. The issue appears to be within the control board.

I appreciate your assistance in advance.

regards Paul - Fortuna II Amel 55 #17


Re: Climma air conditioning unit

 

Paul,

Most Amel owners in this Group have either Climma Compact or Climma Split ACs. I believe that you have a Climma Chiller System.

The only reason I interject this into the thread is that you may get some replies from other owners who are not aware that yours is significantly different than theirs. Maybe you were also not aware?

It sounds like you need to seek support from a trained tech because 160 volts can kill. If you are in Europe, start with customerservice@.... I found them quite helpful.

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 6:43 AM Paul Brown <feeder.brown@...> wrote:
Hello, can anyone assist please:

My Amel 55 has a Climma AC unit in the saloon and fwd cabin that appears to have 160v across its fan relay which is causing the fan motor to be energised without the unit being switched on. In other words there is a hum coming from the fan motor (the fan is not spinning) which would probably burn the motor out if the unit is not switched off at its circuit breaker. The issue appears to be within the control board.

I appreciate your assistance in advance.

regards Paul - Fortuna II Amel 55 #17


Re: Air con circulating pump

Nick Newington
 

Hi Stephan, yes it is but it is weird, I thought it was a 240v pump but actually it is 24v and they provide a power adapter that converts 240v ac to 24v so I put the power pack in a box. The power pack overheated. So I opened the box and it worked fine after that. 
This summer it was very hot and the sea water was 28 degrees in Volos Greece. Ran three aircon units fine all day…not sure that the power supply thing is ideal….a bit Mickey Mouse.

Nick 
Amelia 
AML54-019 
Leros Gr


On 2 Oct 2021, at 18:46, Stefan Schaufert <mail@...> wrote:

Dear Nick,

is your Dormaire pump still working (fine)?

Best regards
Stefan
A54 #119 Lady Charlyette, currently La Palma - Canaries


Re: lithium battery warning

Brent Cameron
 

As Scott has said the Lithium nickel cobalt batteries used in cars are NOT the same thing as the Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries that are primarily being installed in boats (I am aware of a few DYI’ers that have tried to install used Tesla batteries in boats - thankfully nobody has tried this iban Amel to my knowledge). 

The batteries used in cars (and laptops) need to be charged (and discharged) at more than 1C (i.e. more than the rates Capacity of the battery) to ensure a quick charge so they have a more aggressive chemistry that can result in fires when internally short circuited. The Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries can’t charge at that rate (typically up to 0.5C) but then when connected to solar panels and generators they can’t be anyway so no need for better performance. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries were primarily used in street lamps before people started using them in RV’s, Solar farms and boats. None of these applications need high charge or discharge rates and the bow thruster is probably the only thing on our boats that could cause them to get close to 1C but according to Amel we should be running the generator when running the bow thruster anyway. 

There are videos of some crazy Chinese battery assemblers shooting Lithium Iron phosphate batteries to try to get them to catch fire and they can’t do it (they do get hot). I say assemblers as many of these cheap Chinese batteries use used street lamp cells and put them in cases with cheap BMS systems so caveat emptor. 

It is certainly possible to put together your own cells and BMS and create a battery system as good as Victron or Mastervolt (or BattleBorn) but it isn’t just a matter of finding the cheapest cells and BMS units and self assembling so is probably best left to those who love to spend days reading spec sheets and really understand electricity. Ken Powers is an electrical engineer as I recall and as Scott said had challenges when supervising the installation by a Thai electrician. These things can discharge a huge amount of current (even at 0.5C that’s 225Amps of a typical 450Amp battery bank). You can certainly weld plate at those amperages!   

Those of us with a bit more grey hair that have been sailing for a while will remember the teething problems with AGM batteries as well. You can’t treat these like drop in replacements (no matter what the marketing materials say) for AGM or Lead Acid batteries. Yes they can be dangerous but then so can 600Amps of Lead Acid or AGM and you shouldn’t change the wiring with those if you don’t know what you are doing there either. 

Fortunately the biggest danger we face from poor Lithium iron phosphate battery installations that isn’t also there with Lead Acid and AGM is to your wallet from wrecking them. As always if you change the wiring on your boat, please make sure that you know what you are doing. 

Brent

On Oct 4, 2021, 6:42 AM -0400, main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io, wrote:


--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Climma air conditioning unit

Paul Brown
 

Hello, can anyone assist please:

My Amel 55 has a Climma AC unit in the saloon and fwd cabin that appears to have 160v across its fan relay which is causing the fan motor to be energised without the unit being switched on. In other words there is a hum coming from the fan motor (the fan is not spinning) which would probably burn the motor out if the unit is not switched off at its circuit breaker. The issue appears to be within the control board.

I appreciate your assistance in advance.

regards Paul - Fortuna II Amel 55 #17


Re: lithium battery warning

Lior Keydar
 

Scott,

On this homepage, there is a good comparison of the different Lithium batteries: https://www.roypowusa.com/?page_id=37164

I have also the Mastervolt 110A alternator and the Alpha Pro III. I configured it with the lithium profile and float voltage of 26.7V. Its charges permanently at around 80A.
I will also connect it permanently with the master bus to the laptop to monitor the charging and also be able to change fast the configuration in case that something goes wrong (for example reduce the charge voltage or turn it off). I think that the main risk is in case that the regulator being defective. 

Best,
Lior, SHARONA, A54 #18



Re: lithium battery warning

Scott SV Tengah
 

Good to know. 

For those with the Mastervolt 24v-110amp alternator and Alpha Pro II or newer, you can sleep reasonably well knowing that it can handle outputting high current for an extended time.

When I first switched to lifepo4, I called Mastervolt and grilled them about their alternator’s ability to handle max output for hours. I wanted to add a temperature sensor to taper output in case the alternator started overheating. They insisted that it was unnecessary as their alternator could easily handle lithium.

I don’t take manufacturers at their word, so I installed the temperature sensor anyways. 

Three years of lithium, 20k miles and close to 1000 hours on the motor and it seems Mastervolt was right. The alternator has never tapered output due to overheating.

On Oct 4, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> wrote:

More than ten cases this is why some insurance companies refuse to ensure boats with lithium batteries if they are not mounted by Mastervolt or Victron . 
The reasons are different but in many cases the main engine alternator burnt as it was not adapted for Lithium charges 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 4 oct. 2021 à 09:58, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> a écrit :

Thanks for the video - too bad the less informed still don't understand that lithium-cobalt and lifepo4 are not the same thing. Let's hope for the sake of currently produced and future Amels that insurance companies get some objective data soon, otherwise the Amel 50 and 60 with factory installed lithium won't be insurable. Obviously that's not a situation that will persist.

The closest I have heard is Ken Powers had a small fire aboard his SM, but I believe that was due to poor wiring during the lifepo4 install? He can elaborate if he's still posting here as that's as much as I know.

I think the bigger concern (advantage) of lifepo4 is that it can deliver so much current compared to lead-acid/agm/gel that your wiring and connections better be up to snuff. When the lithium-ignorant marine electrician tried to connect my Victron 12.8v pairs using short jumper wires, the wires nearly melted from the high sustained currents that you don't have to consider when you're using lead. I forced him to use copper bars and there have been no issues in the 3 years since.

Following up on that video, I will preface by saying that I don't think Victron is better than all the rest, but my Victron batteries appear to have internal short circuit protection that is not advertised. Another electrician was working on my bow thruster and didn't check to make sure the main switches were off and accidentally touched the red/black 95mm2 cables together. The lugs melted and the Victron Smart Lithium internal short circuit protection kicked in prior to blowing the 450amp x 3 Mega fuses, implying that the Victron batteries protected against the short circuit faster than the fuses did.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: lithium battery warning

Bruno COTTE
 

More than ten cases this is why some insurance companies refuse to ensure boats with lithium batteries if they are not mounted by Mastervolt or Victron . 
The reasons are different but in many cases the main engine alternator burnt as it was not adapted for Lithium charges 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 4 oct. 2021 à 09:58, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> a écrit :

Thanks for the video - too bad the less informed still don't understand that lithium-cobalt and lifepo4 are not the same thing. Let's hope for the sake of currently produced and future Amels that insurance companies get some objective data soon, otherwise the Amel 50 and 60 with factory installed lithium won't be insurable. Obviously that's not a situation that will persist.

The closest I have heard is Ken Powers had a small fire aboard his SM, but I believe that was due to poor wiring during the lifepo4 install? He can elaborate if he's still posting here as that's as much as I know.

I think the bigger concern (advantage) of lifepo4 is that it can deliver so much current compared to lead-acid/agm/gel that your wiring and connections better be up to snuff. When the lithium-ignorant marine electrician tried to connect my Victron 12.8v pairs using short jumper wires, the wires nearly melted from the high sustained currents that you don't have to consider when you're using lead. I forced him to use copper bars and there have been no issues in the 3 years since.

Following up on that video, I will preface by saying that I don't think Victron is better than all the rest, but my Victron batteries appear to have internal short circuit protection that is not advertised. Another electrician was working on my bow thruster and didn't check to make sure the main switches were off and accidentally touched the red/black 95mm2 cables together. The lugs melted and the Victron Smart Lithium internal short circuit protection kicked in prior to blowing the 450amp x 3 Mega fuses, implying that the Victron batteries protected against the short circuit faster than the fuses did.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: lithium battery warning

Scott SV Tengah
 

Thanks for the video - too bad the less informed still don't understand that lithium-cobalt and lifepo4 are not the same thing. Let's hope for the sake of currently produced and future Amels that insurance companies get some objective data soon, otherwise the Amel 50 and 60 with factory installed lithium won't be insurable. Obviously that's not a situation that will persist.

The closest I have heard is Ken Powers had a small fire aboard his SM, but I believe that was due to poor wiring during the lifepo4 install? He can elaborate if he's still posting here as that's as much as I know.

I think the bigger concern (advantage) of lifepo4 is that it can deliver so much current compared to lead-acid/agm/gel that your wiring and connections better be up to snuff. When the lithium-ignorant marine electrician tried to connect my Victron 12.8v pairs using short jumper wires, the wires nearly melted from the high sustained currents that you don't have to consider when you're using lead. I forced him to use copper bars and there have been no issues in the 3 years since.

Following up on that video, I will preface by saying that I don't think Victron is better than all the rest, but my Victron batteries appear to have internal short circuit protection that is not advertised. Another electrician was working on my bow thruster and didn't check to make sure the main switches were off and accidentally touched the red/black 95mm2 cables together. The lugs melted and the Victron Smart Lithium internal short circuit protection kicked in prior to blowing the 450amp x 3 Mega fuses, implying that the Victron batteries protected against the short circuit faster than the fuses did.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: lithium battery warning

Lior Keydar
 

Hi

Here is a youtube video that tests the risk of Lithium batteries and fire: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzt9RZ0FQyM&ab_channel=GWL

Does anyone know of a specific case of fire on a boat because of LiFePO4 batteries?

Best, 
Lior
SHARONA, A54 #18


Re: SM2K Sail Drive Water Ingress (minor)

Bill Kinney
 

Rick,

Can you see where the water is coming from?  or just that it is accumulating at the base of the C-Drive?  Other sources of water are more likely, especially if the hose clamps are snug.  It is a bit of a low spot there, and any drips off the engine can accumulate there in addition to other sources, and Stefan has mentioned.

Oh, and don't call it a "sail drive." Those are fragile, delicate, corrosion-prone, things installed by modern boatbuilders to save a nickel.  Your Amel has a "C-Drive"  :))

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie


Re: What to do with LiFePO4 batteries when the boat is layed up?

Matt & Michelle Day, SM#208 SV Talia
 

Dean,
I have the benefit of the batteries being new, having the equipment in the box for battery monitoring and still being a land lubber with too much electrical test equipment on a work bench.  First I determined initial battery voltage of course...simple enough.  However, this does not tell you much because Li batteries do not act like the lead acid batteries we are used to dealing with and relating V to SOC is not linear.  But, I have the Smartshunt, charger and CERBO.  I took my cute little charger and charged the batteries to max capacity based on the Victron datasheet, driving through the SmartShunt, a datalogger and Scopemeter.  I then discharged the battery to the original shipped-to voltage using a bench inverter/charger + space heater + Smartshunt + datalogger + Scopemeter.  With the cycle and the data supplied from the Victron datasheet, the CERBO calculated the SOC with the Victron algorithm.  I could also manually calculate total battery capacity from the discharge/charge cycle data and extrapolate the data to verify battery capacity matched the 200Ah promised for the premium paid to Victron (my real motivation).  I could not bring myself to discharge the batteries beyond the storage voltage given the capital I have tied up in the batteries.  So I settled on the calcs for satisfying my curiosity.  I then repeated the charge/discharge cycle with the other 5 batteries. 

I want/need to pull the batteries back down to the storage SOC, as I will not be installing the batteries for a few months yet.  

Matt


Re: Main Outhaul gearbox ware to buy

Peter Attinge
 

Hello
Thanks for the help

Kind Regards
Med Vänlig Hälsning

Peter Attinge


Re: AMFA bilge pump spare part

 

Oliver, that is good information, but not complete because there are more than 1 Bosch model at 24 volts on eBay. 

Do you know which one?

5 results for bosch wiper motors for 24v

Shipping to: 77550
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  • CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
    Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
    View My Training Calendar

    On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 5:28 PM Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica <oliver.henrichsen@...> wrote:
    Hello, there are BOSCH wiper motors for 24V that work perfect to replace the original motor and gear. Just look at ebay. Cost about 50 euros plus shipping in Europe.

    Oliver from Vela Nautica 
    A54#39 
    Martinique

    On Sat, Oct 2, 2021, 11:07 ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@...> <ianjudyjenkins@...> wrote:
    I have the original AMFA bilge pump.  For the second time in 21 years ( I make no complaint--would that everything lasted that long ) the plastic cogged wheel that connects the motor to the pump has broken.

     I have emailed Reya, the French group that now owns A. M.F.A.  in the hope that they still carry spares.  My recollection from last time is that they sell you the motor attached to the wheel.

     Not cheap, but a sound of great comfort when it works.

     Has anyone recently had to get this spare part ?

    Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Leros, Greece ( sitting out an unseasonal 7 day meltemi )


    Re: SM2K Sail Drive Water Ingress (minor)

    Stefan Jeukendrup
     

    Hi Rick, 

    Sounds familiar, replacing the big hose clamps on the hose of the C-drive top: but still water collecting there.

    In my case the water turned out to come from the aft shower drain.
    In my case I mounted an inline siphon in series with the seacock of the shower drain. That gets rid of any bilge smell in aft cabin and "extends" the hose.

    Hope this helps you,

    Stefan Jeukendrup
    sv Malaka Queen
    SM2k #348 @ Northern Ireland


    Op 3 okt. 2021 14:14 schreef Rick Stanley <rstanley907@...>:

    Hey everyone we splashed last week after an extended stay on the hard and noticed a minor leak around the base of the sail drive, where the shaft passes through the hull. When I say minor leak, I mean maybe 1/4 cup of water over 3-4 days. There are 2 hose clamps around the base of the sail drive shaft, tightening those slightly had no effect that I could see, the water is still coming in at about the same rate.

    Any thoughts on how to resolve this?

    Thanks!!

    Rick & Meadow
    S/V Althea, SM2K #317
    Rock Hall, MD

    1381 - 1400 of 61694