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Re: Maramu pole attachment to the mast broke off

Bill Kinney
 

Just to be clear, the "threaded inserts" are usually known in the trade as "rivnuts"  I keep a selection of them onboard, they are very handy in a lot of situations. There are fancy tools to install them, but they can be installed with a bolt and a nut, it just takes a little longer.

They are available in a range of sizes and materials.  For installation in an aluminim mast, I'd stick with the Aluminum versions.  They are a lot stronger than just tapping the mast, and they last a lot longer than pop-rivets.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA
Re: Depth Tranducer offset Santorin

Bill Kinney
 

Eric,

Can't tell you exactly what it is, but I can tell you what I used to tell my students to do every time they got on a new boat:  Drop a weight on a line next to the boat at the dock.  Measure the depth of the water, and compare to the actual reading on the instrument.  Adjust the offset as needed.  Sure to be right.

REALLY important on any charter boat, where people frequently get lost in menus on the instruments and push buttons at random...  No telling what the settings are.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA
Depth Tranducer offset Santorin

Eric Meury
 

added a new depth tranducer and wanted to make sure the depth offset is correct.  Anyone know the tranducer offset in the santorin.
Re: Maramu pole attachment to the mast broke off

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Hi Alex,

I have a somewhat similar situation on my SM. A small cleat was ripped out of the mast and it pulled out the threaded inserts. I think the holes in the mast are deformed or enlarged just enough that the same size rivnuts/threaded inserts will not fit properly. If I drill the holes larger, then I don't think the next size up bolts will fit through the cleat.

I'm still pondering how to go about this. Ideally I'd like to re-use the cleat I already have. Open to any ideas or suggestions.

I think new rivnuts/threaded inserts is the way to go but clearly that comes with its own complications. I think you could modify the holes in your mast and the holes on the plate of your pole mount (if necessary) in order to fit new rivnuts and bolts. For me, I'm not sure drilling out the holes of the small cleat is a good option. FYI, a proper rivnut tool is very helpful when installing as opposed to using nut and bolt.

The dissimilar metals in close contact may have accelerated the failure of your rivets. Try to insulate or use something like Tef-Gel when you put the new hardware in.

Cheers,
Mike Longcor
SV Trilogy SM23
NZ

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 4:32 AM Alex BAIZEAU <alexandre.baizeau@...> wrote:
Hey Bill,

Thanks for the reply. It’s shiny and heavy so I’m positive it’s stainless steel. 

One other difference with the SM design is that the locking pin is not traversing, the pin is spring loaded in the lock position ( you can see it in the first picture of my original email ). You need to pull it down using the lanyard to unlock the small pole. 

I’m going to take it to a machine shop here in Portimao and see what they say regarding copying it in Aluminium. 



On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 3:38 PM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Alex,

Are you sure it is stainless steel?

If it were my Maramu, I would have larger "small-pole mounts to the mainmast" fabricated in a machine shop from Aluminum and consider welding the larger aluminum mounts to the aluminum mast, although I am not sure if that would require a thicker mast or some sort of backing plate. Of course the new aluminum mount could be riveted. The Super Maramu small-pole mounts were made of aluminum and welded to the mainmast.

Also, if you decide to have these fabricated, you might want to announce that in this Group, because I am sure that other Maramu owners would consider joining the order.

SM "small-pole mounts to the mainmast" (circled in green) are aluminum and welded to the mainmast:
image.png


On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 8:45 AM Alex BAIZEAU <alexandre.baizeau@...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

We own a Maramu rigged with the system of twin small and long poles.

The piece of stainless steel that attach the port small pole to the mast broke off while deploying the large pole. It's was held in place by rivets but they corroded away.

The rivet holes have been enlarged (see attached picture) either by corrosion or when trying to drill the rivets out so I can't just re rivet the piece to the mast.

I wonder what are my options to reattach this critical piece of equipement. 

 

Here iare the 3 options that I've though of so far:


- Redrill 3 cmm higher or lower on the mast and re-rivet. The issue is that the small pole won't be lined up with the support ring on the standing rigging exactly how it was before

or 

- Enlarge the holes and use threaded inserts - It sounds like the most robust option to me but I'm not sure if I'm capable of enlarging these holes without making a bigger mess
or 


- Have the piece mounted on a larger plate so that it can be mounted at the same height than before.

I would appreciate any suggestion


Here is a picture of the piece itself:
I

Here are the rivet holes in the mast


Here is the back of the piece


And the starboard side for reference.



Thank you so much and have a great day

 

Alex Baizeau

Maramu #207 Barth
Re: Firefly batteries

Bill Kinney
 

Paul,

Our batteries are connected like this:



(Except with 8 instead of 6).

You might want to check the information about the maximum battery back that can be created.  I KNOW that they do not recommend connecting more than 4 in SERIES (as you would if you were making a 48Volt bank), but I can think of no reason that the number of parallel batteries would be limited. My manual doesn't suggest any limit.

I found the terminals of the Firefly G31 batteries to be slightly taller than the Lifeline batteries they replaced, but our fitting isn't tight, so a bit of expansion in footprint I would not have noticed.  Generally, for any battery, it is not a great idea to have them pressed tightly together. They need a bit of air space to lose heat..  Firefly suggests a minimum of 1cm between batteries.

I might be labeled a heretic but do you really NEED 12 batteries? We have never been in a situation where we felt we wanted more than the 8 our boat came with.  The Firefly batteries are happy with a deeper discharge profile than the FLA batteries the 54 was designed with.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA
Re: Info on Henri Amel

CW Bill Rouse
 

Mickey,

I do not know if you have seen it, but there is a very good explanation of what Henri accomplished in a timeline format on Amel's website. It is named "Our Story" and I have a pdf copy here, but the pdf is not as good as the link below to Amel's website:
 Our story - AMEL.pdf
Visit the Amel Story here: https://amel.fr/en/our-story/
This could be the foundation of your presentation.

Also, I have been collecting other Amel "historical" documents which you can see and download here:
I hope this helps you and others with Henri Amel's history.
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:12 PM Micky Ball <mik-ball@...> wrote:
Good Evening / Morning fellow Amelians , this is an unusual request ( hope I wont be banned ) . I have been asked , at short notice to fill in and do a 15minute talk at my local Rotary Club on Tuesday evening  and I thought Henri Amel and his  success would be a good topic for it . Would any of you have any interesting anecdotes/ short stories that may help ??
    Thanks in Advance 
  Micky Ball Future Super Maramu Owner  , Currently in sunny SW Scotland , Kirkcudbright ( oneof Scotlands oldest Ports )

Info on Henri Amel

Micky Ball
 

Good Evening / Morning fellow Amelians , this is an unusual request ( hope I wont be banned ) . I have been asked , at short notice to fill in and do a 15minute talk at my local Rotary Club on Tuesday evening  and I thought Henri Amel and his  success would be a good topic for it . Would any of you have any interesting anecdotes/ short stories that may help ??
    Thanks in Advance 
  Micky Ball Future Super Maramu Owner  , Currently in sunny SW Scotland , Kirkcudbright ( oneof Scotlands oldest Ports )
Re: Maramu pole attachment to the mast broke off

Alex BAIZEAU
 

Hey Bill,

Thanks for the reply. It’s shiny and heavy so I’m positive it’s stainless steel. 

One other difference with the SM design is that the locking pin is not traversing, the pin is spring loaded in the lock position ( you can see it in the first picture of my original email ). You need to pull it down using the lanyard to unlock the small pole. 

I’m going to take it to a machine shop here in Portimao and see what they say regarding copying it in Aluminium. 



On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 3:38 PM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Alex,

Are you sure it is stainless steel?

If it were my Maramu, I would have larger "small-pole mounts to the mainmast" fabricated in a machine shop from Aluminum and consider welding the larger aluminum mounts to the aluminum mast, although I am not sure if that would require a thicker mast or some sort of backing plate. Of course the new aluminum mount could be riveted. The Super Maramu small-pole mounts were made of aluminum and welded to the mainmast.

Also, if you decide to have these fabricated, you might want to announce that in this Group, because I am sure that other Maramu owners would consider joining the order.

SM "small-pole mounts to the mainmast" (circled in green) are aluminum and welded to the mainmast:
image.png


On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 8:45 AM Alex BAIZEAU <alexandre.baizeau@...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

We own a Maramu rigged with the system of twin small and long poles.

The piece of stainless steel that attach the port small pole to the mast broke off while deploying the large pole. It's was held in place by rivets but they corroded away.

The rivet holes have been enlarged (see attached picture) either by corrosion or when trying to drill the rivets out so I can't just re rivet the piece to the mast.

I wonder what are my options to reattach this critical piece of equipement. 

 

Here iare the 3 options that I've though of so far:


- Redrill 3 cmm higher or lower on the mast and re-rivet. The issue is that the small pole won't be lined up with the support ring on the standing rigging exactly how it was before

or 

- Enlarge the holes and use threaded inserts - It sounds like the most robust option to me but I'm not sure if I'm capable of enlarging these holes without making a bigger mess
or 


- Have the piece mounted on a larger plate so that it can be mounted at the same height than before.

I would appreciate any suggestion


Here is a picture of the piece itself:
I

Here are the rivet holes in the mast


Here is the back of the piece


And the starboard side for reference.



Thank you so much and have a great day

 

Alex Baizeau

Maramu #207 Barth
Re: Maramu pole attachment to the mast broke off

CW Bill Rouse
 

Alex,

Are you sure it is stainless steel?

If it were my Maramu, I would have larger "small-pole mounts to the mainmast" fabricated in a machine shop from Aluminum and consider welding the larger aluminum mounts to the aluminum mast, although I am not sure if that would require a thicker mast or some sort of backing plate. Of course the new aluminum mount could be riveted. The Super Maramu small-pole mounts were made of aluminum and welded to the mainmast.

Also, if you decide to have these fabricated, you might want to announce that in this Group, because I am sure that other Maramu owners would consider joining the order.

SM "small-pole mounts to the mainmast" (circled in green) are aluminum and welded to the mainmast:
image.png
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 8:45 AM Alex BAIZEAU <alexandre.baizeau@...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

We own a Maramu rigged with the system of twin small and long poles.

The piece of stainless steel that attach the port small pole to the mast broke off while deploying the large pole. It's was held in place by rivets but they corroded away.

The rivet holes have been enlarged (see attached picture) either by corrosion or when trying to drill the rivets out so I can't just re rivet the piece to the mast.

I wonder what are my options to reattach this critical piece of equipement. 

 

Here iare the 3 options that I've though of so far:


- Redrill 3 cmm higher or lower on the mast and re-rivet. The issue is that the small pole won't be lined up with the support ring on the standing rigging exactly how it was before

or 

- Enlarge the holes and use threaded inserts - It sounds like the most robust option to me but I'm not sure if I'm capable of enlarging these holes without making a bigger mess
or 


- Have the piece mounted on a larger plate so that it can be mounted at the same height than before.

I would appreciate any suggestion


Here is a picture of the piece itself:
I

Here are the rivet holes in the mast


Here is the back of the piece


And the starboard side for reference.



Thank you so much and have a great day

 

Alex Baizeau

Maramu #207 Barth
Maramu pole attachment to the mast broke off

Alex BAIZEAU
 

Hello everyone,

We own a Maramu rigged with the system of twin small and long poles.

The piece of stainless steel that attach the port small pole to the mast broke off while deploying the large pole. It's was held in place by rivets but they corroded away.

The rivet holes have been enlarged (see attached picture) either by corrosion or when trying to drill the rivets out so I can't just re rivet the piece to the mast.

I wonder what are my options to reattach this critical piece of equipement. 

 

Here iare the 3 options that I've though of so far:


- Redrill 3 cmm higher or lower on the mast and re-rivet. The issue is that the small pole won't be lined up with the support ring on the standing rigging exactly how it was before

or 

- Enlarge the holes and use threaded inserts - It sounds like the most robust option to me but I'm not sure if I'm capable of enlarging these holes without making a bigger mess
or 


- Have the piece mounted on a larger plate so that it can be mounted at the same height than before.

I would appreciate any suggestion


Here is a picture of the piece itself:
I

Here are the rivet holes in the mast


Here is the back of the piece


And the starboard side for reference.



Thank you so much and have a great day

 

Alex Baizeau

Maramu #207 Barth
Re: B&G Sonic Speed failure

Stefan Jeukendrup
 

Hi David,


Looks like  you found the document: https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/files/B%20&%20G%20Sonic%20Speed%20Information/SonicSpeedTroubleshooting.pdf

The red led not working means that somewhere in the "loop" there is a problem: (transmitter on Sonic speed board, transmit sensor, ultrasonic waves through the water, receive sensor, phased lock loop, Automatic Gain Control amplifier)

I guess you measured the internal power supply already, but did you measure AGC, is it between 1.8 and 2.5V?


Most likely  causes:

* something in the water path between the 2 crystals ( and that includes fouling and loose rubber caps although unlikely since your resistor values are good)

 * defecitive board, test by swapping with another one.

I have several Sonic speed boards if you need one to test.

Hope this is helpfull in some way.


Stefan Jeukendrup

sv Malaka Queen

SM2k #348 @ Newry Northern Ireland


Op 10-10-2021 om 10:30 schreef David Crisp:

Hi All,

The sonic speed on Wilna Grace has not worked for sometime so with the wisdom learned from this group I've been investigating.  Adjusting the spacing knob on the processing unit I'm unable to get the red light to come on. 
I have disconnected the transducer cables and tested them and all seems okay: - 111.4kΩ on one transducer and 111.7kΩ on the other which seems in tolerance and infinite resistance between all cables and the shielding.  Any advice on what I should check next?

David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58

Re: Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Brent Cameron
 

I believe the reason they have twin rudders is solely because of the fat stern.  On the lean, a centre located rudder would have to be very long to stay in the water. On my last sailboat, when it went over about 25 degrees of lean the rudder would lose effectiveness and she’d round up (sort of guaranteed it would never capsize even when over canvased.). Two rudders at each corner keeps one rudder submerged always so it makes sense (which is the same reason the Amel 50 and Amel 60 have them) even though they nearly double the drag when the boat is upright such as when sailing downwind. The fat stern also makes some sense as you get a longer waterline (which increases hull speed) on the lean and they plane if driven fast enough. These boats are designed to do better at beam reaches than dead downwind so it is not a bad trade off for them. 

That said, putting the wheel(s) at the the very end of the stern is much more problematic on a cruising boat. I will admit it is fun and provides good visibility when under sail  but as a cruising boat, you aren't at the wheel much on long passages and a protected helm station like on the Amels makes all the difference in the world when conditions deteriorate - as Eric’s stories aptly illustrate!  I can’t imagine being out there in those conditions even with a lifeline on and being in a full immersion suit.   We doubled up on ever watch because you just couldn’t spend 4 hours back there in boisterous conditions even in Caribbean climates (and you couldn’t reef the sails by yourself anyway). The racing boats don’t have their helm stations exposed like that and are either optimized for single handed sailing or have scads of crew available to do the changes and keep things optimized. 

I think Matt’s point is that he doesn’t see the point of twin helms at the ends of the stern for cruising boats and I fully agree with him. Looks great, shows well on test sails but it’s definitely not one of those things like the near centre well protected helm station that you just don’t get until you get “out there” in nasty conditions and then you realize the subtle brilliance of Captain Henri. I notice that the Amel 50 hasn’t abandoned that enclosed helm station even with the twin rudders. 

My cousin loves their Beneteau  as they do fully crewed day charters with it and it has a huge cockpit to hold scads of paying customers and give them the thrill of open cockpit sailing in small chunks. It even allows all the customers to pretty much take over the entire cockpit area and the skipper can have their own little corner with good visibility. For that purpose, it’s a way better design than Amel’s system but that’s not the same use case as Amel’s.  Like all things on a sailboat, it’s a compromise and you need to understand the pros and cons of both and compare it against how you actually will use your boat to see if it makes sense for you. 

There were things I loved about that Beneteau - that huge cockpit would be a wonderful place for all of my 6 grandkids on the hook but it was completely suboptimal for my intentions (long term cruising in different optimal locations separated by inhospitable oceans away from marinas with small crews) so isn’t remotely the boat for me no matter how pretty she was at the dock. My cousin absolutely loves the Beneteau as it is perfect for their uses and it never leaves the Caymans even in hurricane season. It the weather is tough, they don’t have customers that want to be out in it anyway.  Good boats for both circumstances that would be lousy at doing each other’s missions. I wouldn’t slag the Beneteau for doing well what it was designed for. Neither would I want to cruise on a IMOCA 60. That’s sailing. 

Brent

On Oct 10, 2021, 7:33 AM -0400, Brent Cameron <brentcameron61@...>, wrote:

Good

--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
Re: Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Bruno COTTE
 

Don’t exaggerate ! The VOR 60 around the world by the 3 capes have twin wheels at stern … this is a superb solution for racing boat . Now for a beneteau 55 …..

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 10 oct. 2021 à 13:19, Matt Salatino via groups.io <helmsmatt@...> a écrit :



i can’t see the advantage of twin wheels.
especially at extreme outer corners of the stern. 

We’ve seen some, that make it impossible to enclose (Moody deck salon series), making foulies mandatory for any helm work.

Amels are completely different animals, made for the sea, not a pontoon queen.
Re: Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Matt Salatino
 

i can’t see the advantage of twin wheels.
especially at extreme outer corners of the stern. 

We’ve seen some, that make it impossible to enclose (Moody deck salon series), making foulies mandatory for any helm work.

Amels are completely different animals, made for the sea, not a pontoon queen.
B&G Sonic Speed failure

David Crisp
 

Hi All,

The sonic speed on Wilna Grace has not worked for sometime so with the wisdom learned from this group I've been investigating.  Adjusting the spacing knob on the processing unit I'm unable to get the red light to come on. 
I have disconnected the transducer cables and tested them and all seems okay: - 111.4kΩ on one transducer and 111.7kΩ on the other which seems in tolerance and infinite resistance between all cables and the shielding.  Any advice on what I should check next?

David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58
Re: Firefly batteries

Arno Luijten
 

Hi Paul,

I doubt Amel changed the size of the cavity. I ordered the batteries with a fellow 54 owner with a much earlier hull number and he had he same problem. I do know the problem was in the few centimeters region but that is all it takes to prevent you from installing 13 (12+1) batteries in the cavity.
Keep in mind that the cavity is much bigger then the hole you have to put the batteries trough. I’m not sure anymore but that may have been the problem in the end. It was like playing Tetris with very heavy batteries. 

Cheers,

Arno
SV Luna,
A54-121
Re: Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Brent Cameron
 

Thanks Danny. That confirmed my suspicions.  We didn’t have more than 2-3m seas and 20kts of wind so I didn’t see her bend but like the difference between a Honda Honda Civic and a Mercedes, you can just feel it. (No disrespect to Honda Civic owners… I have both so can make the comparison fairly).   Everything felt undersized for the size of the boat. 

Pat, we only had about 2 hours upwind and I wasn’t hugely impressed by how well it pointed (I thought it would point better as the Genoa tracks are well inboard of the stays unlike the Super Maramu but I guess it’s beamy enough that it negates the difference.  Downwind in 20 knots it did better occasionally surfing down the swells but it’s longer waterline helped a bit too. We saw 10 Kts pretty consistently without surfing and a bit faster when surfing although she’s a big boat so doesn’t accelerate quickly either. 

Nick, we had to motor sail too when the wind was below 10 knots. It’s a horrible place to be on that aft helm when motor sailing downwind as you sit in a fog of diesel exhaust. I’d be changing from side to side to get away from it.  We couldn’t turn upwind on a bit of a reach as we were going by Cuba and didn’t want to get too close so had to put up with dead downwind for much of it until we rounded Cuba (headed for Isla Muerta.).  Good thing you have two rudders :-)  I saw a video somewhere (maybe here) where people were towing a dingy through that area and the orcas left the rudders alone and played with the dingy. Perhaps dragging some fenders or some such might distract them. Good luck!!!

Brent

On Oct 9, 2021, 9:18 PM -0400, ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>, wrote:
We are  motorsailing downwind 12 kn true wind 90 miles east of Gibraltar.
I have been so disappointed in the sailing performance of this boat…she just does not go..she has a clean bottom…my conclusion is that she is grossly overloaded for the design. The excessive wide stern and twin rudders  seam to hold the boat back. 
In my racing days we used to talk about the “prismatic coefficient” the idea being that in light airs when running downwind boats that scored well outperformed. The excessive wide Beneteau would score poorly and a 54 or Supermaramu would score well. Only when there is sufficient wind to get the Beneteau up onto a plane will she take off…but by then one feels too exposed and reefs!
I think the designers look at the super fast open 60’s and try to copy them, but then they add the thrusters and aircons and genset and it just does not work…

Does anyone know about the Prismatic Coefficient?
After Gib we have to run through Orca alley…which is a bit of a worry.

Nick
S/Y Amelia  AML54 -019



On 9 Oct 2021, at 23:52, Patrick McAneny via groups.io <sailw32@...> wrote:


I  had one experience with a Beneteau Sense ,heading north past St.Vincent. I was very surprised , I came up from behind ,overtook him and in a matter of a couple of hours lost sight of him along with several production cats we passed.He had a full set of sails flying and they were trimmed well. I always look to be certain that the other boat is trimmed well. I would thought that he would have been the faster boat. 
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Oct 9, 2021 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Hi Brent,
I was in Vuda Point Fiji a couple of years ago and a new Bene Oceanis 55 was alongside me. The professional skipper was delivering her. He had just completed an ocean passage to Fiji. He referred to the boat as a "Bendyto" He was so concerned at the degree of hull flex they had experienced that he was going throughout the boat to check for delamination of stringers before he was prepared to  continue the delivery.
I agree the Beneteau is a superb charter and inshore vessel, that's what they are designed for. This applies to many of the other charter designed production boats. They are not designed for ocean crossings, particularly not short handed. I know there are many doing ocean passages but in extreme weather and massive seas I believe they would be dangerous. Not least because of the wide open spaces in the cockpit and below. Serious injuries from falling are a big risk. Likewise, the hulls are not constructed to withstand extreme conditions. Two years ago a Bavaria that had circumnavigated was overwhelmed in a storm just out from Cape Brett at the entrance to the Bay of Islands NZ. A wave broke over her, the cabin windows blew out and she sank in about 20 minutes. Through incredible skill of the rescue services all the crew were rescued but sadly the skipper succumbed to hypothermia.
Horses for courses
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 09 October 2021 at 01:13 "Brent Cameron via groups.io" <brentcameron61@...> wrote:

I’ve had the opportunity to do long passages on both Amel Super Maramu’s and a Beneteau Sense 55 back to back and I agree that there isn’t much of a comparison.  While the 55 had a lot more room both below and above deck and would be a much better charter boat (the reason my cousin bought it), at sea they are completely different animals.   That wide open rear deck and seats at the aft corners looks marvellous at the dock but out in big seas or even motoring downwind it’s not a very fun place to be (the exhaust gets you). No way you can really sail it singlehanded as even racking the boat things are way too far away from the helm stations. The winches are used for furling the massive Genoa and that can only be done from one side so again, it’s at least a two person job. It was fast downhill as we saw 10 knots fairly consistently but the motion wasn’t great with a lot of banging of that big flat stern. The cockpit was extremely wide with no proper handholds (same in the galley) so the boat on the lean was actually dangerous as if you fell off the top side to the bottom you’d fly across 10-12’ of space before intercepting something hard to stop (hopefully) you. 

The electrical systems on the Beneteau were bare minimum and sprinkled all throughout the boat making diagnostics much tougher. We had to get into some really tight locations and empty out entire lockers to get at key things which seemed really poor planning. The inverters were really cheap and small (and lasted about as long as you’d expect).  It had three separate battery banks, including one up front for the bow thruster, none in easy spots to get at so I suspect regular inspections would suffer. Engine and generator access was poor and I can’t imagine having to work on the generator at sea. Both were undersized in my humble opinion. Same goes for the winches and brakes. The sail control lines were a mess running all over (and under the deck) and not a lot made sense as you couldn’t trace a line to what it did. With time, you’d of course learn but for new crew (and owners) it wasn’t intuitive like the Amels. You also NEED to be on deck to furl which was disappointing to say the least. 

That said, the boats are designed and intended for completely different missions. If I was doing a charter in the BVI’s or sitting at the dock or anchor for months in end, I’d pick the Beneteau as it’s a heck of a lot of boat (real estate wise) for the money.  That front owners cabin as humongous and the two private cabins are a nice touch with lots of privacy but not a proper sea bunk on the boat.  If I had to sail it out of there to get away from anything stronger than 30!knots, I’d trade two of them for an Amel in a heartbeat. For cruising around the world, for me there is no comparison. I think that a cruising couple should be able to single hand sail and that’s just not possible on the big Beneteau. You’d be sailing around with the sails furled up as a precaution and then wouldn’t be able to get at the extra speed it can carry because of the long waterline. To each their own but I know which I’d pick. 

Brent
On Oct 8, 2021, 4:16 AM -0400, ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>, wrote:
Fellow Amel owners

I am so happy I bought an Amel 54… I am doing a delivery of a Beneteau 55. You would think that she would out-sail my 54….. No way….She just does not go without lots of wind. It must be that wide stern twin rudder arrangement. It is sticky.
It does not have a pole! So down wind is painful.
Then the twin helms are so exposed I fear falling overboard, no wonder life jackets and harnesses are de-rigeur…do not get me started on the engineering, the finish, the motion at sea….
“Love knows not it’s own depth until the hour of separation” is as true with lovers as with boats….
Nick
Temporarily separated from Amelia
AML 54-019






 

--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada

 

--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
Re: Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Nick Newington
 

We are  motorsailing downwind 12 kn true wind 90 miles east of Gibraltar.
I have been so disappointed in the sailing performance of this boat…she just does not go..she has a clean bottom…my conclusion is that she is grossly overloaded for the design. The excessive wide stern and twin rudders  seam to hold the boat back. 
In my racing days we used to talk about the “prismatic coefficient” the idea being that in light airs when running downwind boats that scored well outperformed. The excessive wide Beneteau would score poorly and a 54 or Supermaramu would score well. Only when there is sufficient wind to get the Beneteau up onto a plane will she take off…but by then one feels too exposed and reefs!
I think the designers look at the super fast open 60’s and try to copy them, but then they add the thrusters and aircons and genset and it just does not work…

Does anyone know about the Prismatic Coefficient?
After Gib we have to run through Orca alley…which is a bit of a worry.

Nick
S/Y Amelia  AML54 -019



On 9 Oct 2021, at 23:52, Patrick McAneny via groups.io <sailw32@...> wrote:


I  had one experience with a Beneteau Sense ,heading north past St.Vincent. I was very surprised , I came up from behind ,overtook him and in a matter of a couple of hours lost sight of him along with several production cats we passed.He had a full set of sails flying and they were trimmed well. I always look to be certain that the other boat is trimmed well. I would thought that he would have been the faster boat. 
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Oct 9, 2021 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Hi Brent,
I was in Vuda Point Fiji a couple of years ago and a new Bene Oceanis 55 was alongside me. The professional skipper was delivering her. He had just completed an ocean passage to Fiji. He referred to the boat as a "Bendyto" He was so concerned at the degree of hull flex they had experienced that he was going throughout the boat to check for delamination of stringers before he was prepared to  continue the delivery.
I agree the Beneteau is a superb charter and inshore vessel, that's what they are designed for. This applies to many of the other charter designed production boats. They are not designed for ocean crossings, particularly not short handed. I know there are many doing ocean passages but in extreme weather and massive seas I believe they would be dangerous. Not least because of the wide open spaces in the cockpit and below. Serious injuries from falling are a big risk. Likewise, the hulls are not constructed to withstand extreme conditions. Two years ago a Bavaria that had circumnavigated was overwhelmed in a storm just out from Cape Brett at the entrance to the Bay of Islands NZ. A wave broke over her, the cabin windows blew out and she sank in about 20 minutes. Through incredible skill of the rescue services all the crew were rescued but sadly the skipper succumbed to hypothermia.
Horses for courses
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 09 October 2021 at 01:13 "Brent Cameron via groups.io" <brentcameron61@...> wrote:

I’ve had the opportunity to do long passages on both Amel Super Maramu’s and a Beneteau Sense 55 back to back and I agree that there isn’t much of a comparison.  While the 55 had a lot more room both below and above deck and would be a much better charter boat (the reason my cousin bought it), at sea they are completely different animals.   That wide open rear deck and seats at the aft corners looks marvellous at the dock but out in big seas or even motoring downwind it’s not a very fun place to be (the exhaust gets you). No way you can really sail it singlehanded as even racking the boat things are way too far away from the helm stations. The winches are used for furling the massive Genoa and that can only be done from one side so again, it’s at least a two person job. It was fast downhill as we saw 10 knots fairly consistently but the motion wasn’t great with a lot of banging of that big flat stern. The cockpit was extremely wide with no proper handholds (same in the galley) so the boat on the lean was actually dangerous as if you fell off the top side to the bottom you’d fly across 10-12’ of space before intercepting something hard to stop (hopefully) you. 

The electrical systems on the Beneteau were bare minimum and sprinkled all throughout the boat making diagnostics much tougher. We had to get into some really tight locations and empty out entire lockers to get at key things which seemed really poor planning. The inverters were really cheap and small (and lasted about as long as you’d expect).  It had three separate battery banks, including one up front for the bow thruster, none in easy spots to get at so I suspect regular inspections would suffer. Engine and generator access was poor and I can’t imagine having to work on the generator at sea. Both were undersized in my humble opinion. Same goes for the winches and brakes. The sail control lines were a mess running all over (and under the deck) and not a lot made sense as you couldn’t trace a line to what it did. With time, you’d of course learn but for new crew (and owners) it wasn’t intuitive like the Amels. You also NEED to be on deck to furl which was disappointing to say the least. 

That said, the boats are designed and intended for completely different missions. If I was doing a charter in the BVI’s or sitting at the dock or anchor for months in end, I’d pick the Beneteau as it’s a heck of a lot of boat (real estate wise) for the money.  That front owners cabin as humongous and the two private cabins are a nice touch with lots of privacy but not a proper sea bunk on the boat.  If I had to sail it out of there to get away from anything stronger than 30!knots, I’d trade two of them for an Amel in a heartbeat. For cruising around the world, for me there is no comparison. I think that a cruising couple should be able to single hand sail and that’s just not possible on the big Beneteau. You’d be sailing around with the sails furled up as a precaution and then wouldn’t be able to get at the extra speed it can carry because of the long waterline. To each their own but I know which I’d pick. 

Brent
On Oct 8, 2021, 4:16 AM -0400, ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>, wrote:
Fellow Amel owners

I am so happy I bought an Amel 54… I am doing a delivery of a Beneteau 55. You would think that she would out-sail my 54….. No way….She just does not go without lots of wind. It must be that wide stern twin rudder arrangement. It is sticky.
It does not have a pole! So down wind is painful.
Then the twin helms are so exposed I fear falling overboard, no wonder life jackets and harnesses are de-rigeur…do not get me started on the engineering, the finish, the motion at sea….
“Love knows not it’s own depth until the hour of separation” is as true with lovers as with boats….
Nick
Temporarily separated from Amelia
AML 54-019






 

--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada

 
Re: Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Patrick McAneny
 

I  had one experience with a Beneteau Sense ,heading north past St.Vincent. I was very surprised , I came up from behind ,overtook him and in a matter of a couple of hours lost sight of him along with several production cats we passed.He had a full set of sails flying and they were trimmed well. I always look to be certain that the other boat is trimmed well. I would thought that he would have been the faster boat. 
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Oct 9, 2021 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Hi Brent,
I was in Vuda Point Fiji a couple of years ago and a new Bene Oceanis 55 was alongside me. The professional skipper was delivering her. He had just completed an ocean passage to Fiji. He referred to the boat as a "Bendyto" He was so concerned at the degree of hull flex they had experienced that he was going throughout the boat to check for delamination of stringers before he was prepared to  continue the delivery.
I agree the Beneteau is a superb charter and inshore vessel, that's what they are designed for. This applies to many of the other charter designed production boats. They are not designed for ocean crossings, particularly not short handed. I know there are many doing ocean passages but in extreme weather and massive seas I believe they would be dangerous. Not least because of the wide open spaces in the cockpit and below. Serious injuries from falling are a big risk. Likewise, the hulls are not constructed to withstand extreme conditions. Two years ago a Bavaria that had circumnavigated was overwhelmed in a storm just out from Cape Brett at the entrance to the Bay of Islands NZ. A wave broke over her, the cabin windows blew out and she sank in about 20 minutes. Through incredible skill of the rescue services all the crew were rescued but sadly the skipper succumbed to hypothermia.
Horses for courses
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 09 October 2021 at 01:13 "Brent Cameron via groups.io" <brentcameron61@...> wrote:

I’ve had the opportunity to do long passages on both Amel Super Maramu’s and a Beneteau Sense 55 back to back and I agree that there isn’t much of a comparison.  While the 55 had a lot more room both below and above deck and would be a much better charter boat (the reason my cousin bought it), at sea they are completely different animals.   That wide open rear deck and seats at the aft corners looks marvellous at the dock but out in big seas or even motoring downwind it’s not a very fun place to be (the exhaust gets you). No way you can really sail it singlehanded as even racking the boat things are way too far away from the helm stations. The winches are used for furling the massive Genoa and that can only be done from one side so again, it’s at least a two person job. It was fast downhill as we saw 10 knots fairly consistently but the motion wasn’t great with a lot of banging of that big flat stern. The cockpit was extremely wide with no proper handholds (same in the galley) so the boat on the lean was actually dangerous as if you fell off the top side to the bottom you’d fly across 10-12’ of space before intercepting something hard to stop (hopefully) you. 

The electrical systems on the Beneteau were bare minimum and sprinkled all throughout the boat making diagnostics much tougher. We had to get into some really tight locations and empty out entire lockers to get at key things which seemed really poor planning. The inverters were really cheap and small (and lasted about as long as you’d expect).  It had three separate battery banks, including one up front for the bow thruster, none in easy spots to get at so I suspect regular inspections would suffer. Engine and generator access was poor and I can’t imagine having to work on the generator at sea. Both were undersized in my humble opinion. Same goes for the winches and brakes. The sail control lines were a mess running all over (and under the deck) and not a lot made sense as you couldn’t trace a line to what it did. With time, you’d of course learn but for new crew (and owners) it wasn’t intuitive like the Amels. You also NEED to be on deck to furl which was disappointing to say the least. 

That said, the boats are designed and intended for completely different missions. If I was doing a charter in the BVI’s or sitting at the dock or anchor for months in end, I’d pick the Beneteau as it’s a heck of a lot of boat (real estate wise) for the money.  That front owners cabin as humongous and the two private cabins are a nice touch with lots of privacy but not a proper sea bunk on the boat.  If I had to sail it out of there to get away from anything stronger than 30!knots, I’d trade two of them for an Amel in a heartbeat. For cruising around the world, for me there is no comparison. I think that a cruising couple should be able to single hand sail and that’s just not possible on the big Beneteau. You’d be sailing around with the sails furled up as a precaution and then wouldn’t be able to get at the extra speed it can carry because of the long waterline. To each their own but I know which I’d pick. 

Brent
On Oct 8, 2021, 4:16 AM -0400, ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>, wrote:
Fellow Amel owners

I am so happy I bought an Amel 54… I am doing a delivery of a Beneteau 55. You would think that she would out-sail my 54….. No way….She just does not go without lots of wind. It must be that wide stern twin rudder arrangement. It is sticky.
It does not have a pole! So down wind is painful.
Then the twin helms are so exposed I fear falling overboard, no wonder life jackets and harnesses are de-rigeur…do not get me started on the engineering, the finish, the motion at sea….
“Love knows not it’s own depth until the hour of separation” is as true with lovers as with boats….
Nick
Temporarily separated from Amelia
AML 54-019






 

--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada

 
Re: Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Brent,

I was in Vuda Point Fiji a couple of years ago and a new Bene Oceanis 55 was alongside me. The professional skipper was delivering her. He had just completed an ocean passage to Fiji. He referred to the boat as a "Bendyto" He was so concerned at the degree of hull flex they had experienced that he was going throughout the boat to check for delamination of stringers before he was prepared to  continue the delivery.

I agree the Beneteau is a superb charter and inshore vessel, that's what they are designed for. This applies to many of the other charter designed production boats. They are not designed for ocean crossings, particularly not short handed. I know there are many doing ocean passages but in extreme weather and massive seas I believe they would be dangerous. Not least because of the wide open spaces in the cockpit and below. Serious injuries from falling are a big risk. Likewise, the hulls are not constructed to withstand extreme conditions. Two years ago a Bavaria that had circumnavigated was overwhelmed in a storm just out from Cape Brett at the entrance to the Bay of Islands NZ. A wave broke over her, the cabin windows blew out and she sank in about 20 minutes. Through incredible skill of the rescue services all the crew were rescued but sadly the skipper succumbed to hypothermia.

Horses for courses

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 09 October 2021 at 01:13 "Brent Cameron via groups.io" <brentcameron61@...> wrote:

I’ve had the opportunity to do long passages on both Amel Super Maramu’s and a Beneteau Sense 55 back to back and I agree that there isn’t much of a comparison.  While the 55 had a lot more room both below and above deck and would be a much better charter boat (the reason my cousin bought it), at sea they are completely different animals.   That wide open rear deck and seats at the aft corners looks marvellous at the dock but out in big seas or even motoring downwind it’s not a very fun place to be (the exhaust gets you). No way you can really sail it singlehanded as even racking the boat things are way too far away from the helm stations. The winches are used for furling the massive Genoa and that can only be done from one side so again, it’s at least a two person job. It was fast downhill as we saw 10 knots fairly consistently but the motion wasn’t great with a lot of banging of that big flat stern. The cockpit was extremely wide with no proper handholds (same in the galley) so the boat on the lean was actually dangerous as if you fell off the top side to the bottom you’d fly across 10-12’ of space before intercepting something hard to stop (hopefully) you. 

The electrical systems on the Beneteau were bare minimum and sprinkled all throughout the boat making diagnostics much tougher. We had to get into some really tight locations and empty out entire lockers to get at key things which seemed really poor planning. The inverters were really cheap and small (and lasted about as long as you’d expect).  It had three separate battery banks, including one up front for the bow thruster, none in easy spots to get at so I suspect regular inspections would suffer. Engine and generator access was poor and I can’t imagine having to work on the generator at sea. Both were undersized in my humble opinion. Same goes for the winches and brakes. The sail control lines were a mess running all over (and under the deck) and not a lot made sense as you couldn’t trace a line to what it did. With time, you’d of course learn but for new crew (and owners) it wasn’t intuitive like the Amels. You also NEED to be on deck to furl which was disappointing to say the least. 

That said, the boats are designed and intended for completely different missions. If I was doing a charter in the BVI’s or sitting at the dock or anchor for months in end, I’d pick the Beneteau as it’s a heck of a lot of boat (real estate wise) for the money.  That front owners cabin as humongous and the two private cabins are a nice touch with lots of privacy but not a proper sea bunk on the boat.  If I had to sail it out of there to get away from anything stronger than 30!knots, I’d trade two of them for an Amel in a heartbeat. For cruising around the world, for me there is no comparison. I think that a cruising couple should be able to single hand sail and that’s just not possible on the big Beneteau. You’d be sailing around with the sails furled up as a precaution and then wouldn’t be able to get at the extra speed it can carry because of the long waterline. To each their own but I know which I’d pick. 

Brent
On Oct 8, 2021, 4:16 AM -0400, ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>, wrote:
Fellow Amel owners

I am so happy I bought an Amel 54… I am doing a delivery of a Beneteau 55. You would think that she would out-sail my 54….. No way….She just does not go without lots of wind. It must be that wide stern twin rudder arrangement. It is sticky.
It does not have a pole! So down wind is painful.
Then the twin helms are so exposed I fear falling overboard, no wonder life jackets and harnesses are de-rigeur…do not get me started on the engineering, the finish, the motion at sea….
“Love knows not it’s own depth until the hour of separation” is as true with lovers as with boats….
Nick
Temporarily separated from Amelia
AML 54-019






 


--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


 
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