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Re: Firefly batteries

Bill Kinney
 

Jamie,

The drawing is correct, and generates 24 volts.  A full explanation is here:  https://fetchinketch.net/boat_thoughts/battery-connections/(opens in a new tab)

The common connection across the "middle" of the bank allows a single battery balancer to keep the batteries high and low at the same voltage during charging. It also makes certain that load and charging current is evenly shared between every battery in the system. It also allows us to easily measure and detect a single badly performing battery by monitoring the voltages of the upper and lower halves of the bank.  https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Battery-Balancer-EN.pdf

In any multiple battery system the important thing is to be sure that the batteries share the load and the charging current and voltages as identically as possible. If this is not done, over time some batteries are chronically undercharged, and others are overcharged. This will shorten the lifespan of the bank as a whole, and increases the chance of a "shorted" battery to kill all the others.

For batteries like flooded lead acid that are regularly equalized this this isn't so much an issue, the equalization process balances the batteries.  Gel and AGM batteries typically are NOT equalized, and therefore need more attention to this.  It is possible that the regular "restoration charges" that Firefly recommends (and that we do) fully addresses this issue, but the addition of the balancer gives me an extra level of comfort that everything is charging evenly. Our measurements support that this has been effective.

It's useful to remember that with the system as installed by Amel, batteries were expect to be replaced OFTEN.  In the Super Maramu owner's manual Amel says that for a boat that spends most of its time at anchor the lifespan of the batteries "will probably not exceed 18 months." As battery technology has improved, including much more sophisticated charging systems that let us keep our batteries closer to full more of the time, they last a lot longer.  

If you install inexpensive batteries and change them often, you can get away with systems that are simpler than if you use more expensive batteries and more careful controls.  Neither choice is better than the other, they are different and suit different styles of boat use and owner involvement in the details.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD
Re: Net call - potential water ingress point on all Super Maramus

Marty Crighton
 

Bill - sorry should have done that when I sent it.
All three photos are of the inside of the exhaust cavity looking inboard from the exhaust hole towards the wall of the cavity parallel to the cockpit combing. The throughbolts belong to the aft-most hinge of the portside cockpit locker.
Photo1 is a close up of the drain hole.
Photo 2 is a wider angle of the drain hole with the adhesive visible.
Photo 3 is of the low spot in the cavity aft of the hinge and drain hole. In our experience, this area collects water and where the adhesive deterioration took place and the point of water ingress. 
Marty

NADA, SM2K #327
Grenada


--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Future Amel Owners
Pyeongtaek, South Korea
Re: Net call - potential water ingress point on all Super Maramus

CW Bill Rouse
 

Marty,

Thanks for posting. Can you give a description for each of these 3 photos? I randomly assigned numbers to them 1-3 below.

image.png
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 11:41 AM Marty Crighton <dogfacedsailor@...> wrote:
Hello all,
We are relatively new owners of our SM. This community has been a fantastic resource and was one of the reasons we decided to purchase an Amel. (There is great comfort in numbers and even more when those numbers are other owners all of whom have far more knowledge and wisdom and are willing to share.)
In keeping with that tradition I want to alert all SM owners of an issue we found that I suspect exists across the fleet, and one I have not seen addressed recently in this forum. The issue is standing water in the engine room exhaust cavity inside/under the portside cockpit combing. On our boat the drain hole for that cavity is just behind the aft-most hinge of the portside cockpit locker. However that is not the lowpoint in that cavity. The low point is the corner just aft of the drain hole where the cavity, combing and bulkhead meet. This creates space for water to stand.
The second issue discovered is that the bond between the cavity, the combing, and the bulkhead is an adhesive bond. On the inside the corners/edges are not glassed. On our boat that adhesive bond began to fail and that led to water damage along the bulkhead in the aft head. Given the hidden point of the water ingress there was no way to fix the issue until there was visible damage.
This potential weak point is well hidden. I'll leave it to those much smarter and experienced with these great boats to explain why a vent cover was not installed, but based on the standing water we found in that cavity, and the condition of the adhesive we are installing a vent cover to limit the amount of rain water that accumulates.
We did a week of testing to determine how much water gets into that cavity under normal conditions and found it to be significant. In a steady rain the inboard edge will collect over a 1/4 inch of water in 30 min. 
Based on the age of these boats thought those who were not aware might benefit from what we have found and learned and would be grateful for any insights anyone has as to further prevention. 
Respectfully, 
Marty


--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Nada, SM2K #327
Grenada
Net call - potential water ingress point on all Super Maramus

Marty Crighton
 

Hello all,
We are relatively new owners of our SM. This community has been a fantastic resource and was one of the reasons we decided to purchase an Amel. (There is great comfort in numbers and even more when those numbers are other owners all of whom have far more knowledge and wisdom and are willing to share.)
In keeping with that tradition I want to alert all SM owners of an issue we found that I suspect exists across the fleet, and one I have not seen addressed recently in this forum. The issue is standing water in the engine room exhaust cavity inside/under the portside cockpit combing. On our boat the drain hole for that cavity is just behind the aft-most hinge of the portside cockpit locker. However that is not the lowpoint in that cavity. The low point is the corner just aft of the drain hole where the cavity, combing and bulkhead meet. This creates space for water to stand.
The second issue discovered is that the bond between the cavity, the combing, and the bulkhead is an adhesive bond. On the inside the corners/edges are not glassed. On our boat that adhesive bond began to fail and that led to water damage along the bulkhead in the aft head. Given the hidden point of the water ingress there was no way to fix the issue until there was visible damage.
This potential weak point is well hidden. I'll leave it to those much smarter and experienced with these great boats to explain why a vent cover was not installed, but based on the standing water we found in that cavity, and the condition of the adhesive we are installing a vent cover to limit the amount of rain water that accumulates.
We did a week of testing to determine how much water gets into that cavity under normal conditions and found it to be significant. In a steady rain the inboard edge will collect over a 1/4 inch of water in 30 min. 
Based on the age of these boats thought those who were not aware might benefit from what we have found and learned and would be grateful for any insights anyone has as to further prevention. 
Respectfully, 
Marty


--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Nada, SM2K #327
Grenada
Re: Firefly batteries

CW Bill Rouse
 

How to wire the battery bank can certainly be debated and the "expert" Nigel Calder will tell you the Henri Amel method is wrong. Others will try to convince you of this also. But, I have been on the other end of a conversation with a panicked owner with a shorted battery. With Henri's method, it is very easy to explain how to remove a pair of batteries. With Nigel Calder's method, it is nearly impossible to explain how to isolate a problem battery. I think I know why Henri made his decision.

Who's method is better? Actually, Nigel Calder's method is technically better in terms of battery balance and may result in 1-5% longer life, but do not call me when you have a problem. I believe that 1-5% improvement is not worth the risk unless you are very familiar with the wiring you choose, as some of you are.😀 I chose not to use Nigel Calder's method.

I am sure that you understand what I am saying.

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 8:02 AM Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:
Bill, can you elaborate on your setup. The way you show the drawing it appears as if you actually have 36 volts per "leg" vs 24 volts. I may be misunderstanding the drawing, but I doubt that is the case.
Either way, the issue with series connections is that you have to ensure all in-series batteries are balanced. That is one of the main reasons to limit the number of batteries connected in series, and is a strong incentive to go with 24-volt batteries if possible.
I know that the Fireflys are 12 volts.
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

Re: B&G Sonic Speed failure

Stefan Jeukendrup
 

Hi David,


The output is a square wave: 6,25 Hz per Knot boat speed so please measure in Hz.

The AGC pin is marked on the board, measure DC with respect to the ground pin.

I expect your electronic board is still OK => missing rubber cap will most likely be the cause: the hole where the cap was fills up quickly with dirt and that stops the sensor "hearing" the sound waves emitted by the other sensor, even if its resistance still measures "good" ( its just a resistor of 100 kilo-ohm soldered over the crystal)

You say the boat is on the hard now so you can clean and then fill the hole with silicone or neoprene ( with or without the rubber cap). Then test with a tube filled with water between the transducers.

But when you are out on the hard anyhow this is the moment to order and replace  Maxmarine electronics still has them.

Of cause you are very welcome in Newry to test your board.


Hope this helps you,


Stefan Jeukendrup

sv Malaka Queen

SM2k #348 @Newry, Northern Ireland


Op 11-10-2021 om 12:37 schreef David Crisp:

Thanks for the advice Stefan.
Yes I did check there was power going to the unit. I also checked the output to the H2000 and saw 150mV. But, darn it I didn't know to check the AGC voltage, I'll do that after I relaunch in the spring (Preveza, Greece).

The hull was clean although one of the transducers is missing its rubber cap, however reading some B&G documents somewhere I got the impression this doesn't matter. 

I've brought the Sonic speed board back home with me (England) and was thinking either to either get it tested or to source a working spare.  If you have a spare I can borrow/buy I'd be interested.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58

Re: Firefly batteries

Jamie Wendell
 

Bill, can you elaborate on your setup. The way you show the drawing it appears as if you actually have 36 volts per "leg" vs 24 volts. I may be misunderstanding the drawing, but I doubt that is the case.
Either way, the issue with series connections is that you have to ensure all in-series batteries are balanced. That is one of the main reasons to limit the number of batteries connected in series, and is a strong incentive to go with 24-volt batteries if possible.
I know that the Fireflys are 12 volts.
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44
Re: Depth Tranducer offset Santorin

Craig Briggs
 

Hi Eric,
Foolproof method is just to run aground and then set your offset :-)
FWIW, I set mine to 2'. Now whenever I run aground it reads exactly 6.5' - spot on. 
--
Cheers, Craig,  SN68 Sangaris, at RE Mayo Shrimp Co. free dock in Hobucken, NC on ICW heading south.
Re: Firefly batteries

Paul Dowd and Sharon Brown
 

Hi Bill,

 

That’s interesting. Our Amel came with them as 6 pairs comprising 2 batteries in series, then all 6 in parallel. I guess there are pros and cons for each method.

 

Cheers,

Paul

 

Paul Dowd

Managing Director
FGPS Limited
Tel: +44(0)7710 466 619

skype: pauldowd
www.fgps.com

 

This e-mail (including attachments) may contain sensitive and/or confidential information. If received in error, its use by you is not authorised and may be unlawful. Please notify the sender and delete all copies immediately. E-mails may be subject to error, interference and virus and no liability is accepted for loss or damage however it arises and whether direct or indirect.

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Kinney
Sent: 10 October 2021 21:19
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Firefly batteries

 

Paul,

Our batteries are connected like this:



(Except with 8 instead of 6).

You might want to check the information about the maximum battery back that can be created.  I KNOW that they do not recommend connecting more than 4 in SERIES (as you would if you were making a 48Volt bank), but I can think of no reason that the number of parallel batteries would be limited. My manual doesn't suggest any limit.

I found the terminals of the Firefly G31 batteries to be slightly taller than the Lifeline batteries they replaced, but our fitting isn't tight, so a bit of expansion in footprint I would not have noticed.  Generally, for any battery, it is not a great idea to have them pressed tightly together. They need a bit of air space to lose heat..  Firefly suggests a minimum of 1cm between batteries.

I might be labeled a heretic but do you really NEED 12 batteries? We have never been in a situation where we felt we wanted more than the 8 our boat came with.  The Firefly batteries are happy with a deeper discharge profile than the FLA batteries the 54 was designed with.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


--
Cheers
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98
Re: B&G Sonic Speed failure

David Crisp
 

Thanks for the advice Stefan.
Yes I did check there was power going to the unit. I also checked the output to the H2000 and saw 150mV. But, darn it I didn't know to check the AGC voltage, I'll do that after I relaunch in the spring (Preveza, Greece).

The hull was clean although one of the transducers is missing its rubber cap, however reading some B&G documents somewhere I got the impression this doesn't matter. 

I've brought the Sonic speed board back home with me (England) and was thinking either to either get it tested or to source a working spare.  If you have a spare I can borrow/buy I'd be interested.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58
Re: Info on Henri Amel

Micky Ball
 

Thanks Bill , I had the Amel website story , however your second link is tremendous  , just the sort of info I was looking for , Many Thanks 
Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

WASABI - Rudolf Waldispuehl
 

Hi Lior
Sorry for the late reply and thanks a lot for the tip.
Best regards 
Ruedi

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 30.09.2021 um 15:56 schrieb Lior Keydar <lior246@...>:

Ruedi

I forward you the solution that Robin from SV Carré d’As sent me. He had the same problem and me too. It is actually very easy. 

Best,
Lior

"We found the solution:

find the cable that comes from the pump in the 230V Tableau in the galley and connect it to the side where there is always power - secure it with a 5 amp fuse and you are done!

fair winds


Robin"
<image004.jpg>
<image003.jpg>
<image002 _1_.jpg>
Amel Santorin For Sale. US Coast Guard Documented. - Located in Cambridge MD

Eric Meury
 

We have purchased a new to us boat.  So we are selling our Amel Santorin.  In process of getting all the specs and repairs and improvments over the last 8 years with the bulk of them in the last few years.  We never though we would be selling our amel, but we are moving to an french built alumunim centerboard sloop.  So here is the add i posted on a few FB groups.  If you are interested in seeing the vessel we are currnently located in Cambridge MD and will be in the area until Nov 1.  Amel for sale and sail. - East coast usa. 0pportunity to view before we head south. When we purchased our amel in 2013 we had every intention of making it our forever boat and have maintained and upgraded the vessel over the years with that in mind. We have been presented with the opportunity to purchase a new to us boat that just couldn't pass on. Thus our amel santorin ketch is for sale in the usa. there are only a few here in the states and this particular santorin benefits from new oem rigging and and hydranet sails. The jib sail has been unused as we have been using the larger one that came with the boat There is a total of 1000 watts of solar and 840 amp hours of wet cell (l16) batteries. a marine beam wind generator sits on top the mizzen as well as an air breeze at the halfway mark. A spectra (cape horn) water maker provides plenty of water. we converted the newish water heater to 12 volt and have it set to automatically heat waterr from excess solar. Honestly our family of three showers daily with clean green hot water. New fridge on 2019 along with major systems including engine mounts and vetus bushings. new raw water pump timing belt and water pump. one common issue on amels is the copper pipe below the holding tank begins to give way to what's inside. this has been fixed. The engine is a perkins prima 50 with 4000 hours. it is supplied with clean fuel as via two racors as well as an on board fuel polishing system. When we anchor for extensed periods the previous owner and my self have performed fresh water flushes so as to avoid the exchanger sitting in saltwater. New owners will enjoy an amel set up for cruising. we have added extra lee cloths and some smart improvement for those with a little one. We will be cruising one more season in the Bahamas this year. New OWNERS could possibly benefit with week orientation cruise. We are currently on the eastern shore of Maryland for the next few weeks and are open to showing the vessel to serious and qualified buyers. Our asking price is 175,000. More pictures will follow but with the up coming boat show, I thought it would be a good idea to post this. Our amel has been a joy to sail and own.
Re: Maramu pole attachment to the mast broke off

Bill Kinney
 

Just to be clear, the "threaded inserts" are usually known in the trade as "rivnuts"  I keep a selection of them onboard, they are very handy in a lot of situations. There are fancy tools to install them, but they can be installed with a bolt and a nut, it just takes a little longer.

They are available in a range of sizes and materials.  For installation in an aluminim mast, I'd stick with the Aluminum versions.  They are a lot stronger than just tapping the mast, and they last a lot longer than pop-rivets.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA
Re: Depth Tranducer offset Santorin

Bill Kinney
 

Eric,

Can't tell you exactly what it is, but I can tell you what I used to tell my students to do every time they got on a new boat:  Drop a weight on a line next to the boat at the dock.  Measure the depth of the water, and compare to the actual reading on the instrument.  Adjust the offset as needed.  Sure to be right.

REALLY important on any charter boat, where people frequently get lost in menus on the instruments and push buttons at random...  No telling what the settings are.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA
Depth Tranducer offset Santorin

Eric Meury
 

added a new depth tranducer and wanted to make sure the depth offset is correct.  Anyone know the tranducer offset in the santorin.
Re: Maramu pole attachment to the mast broke off

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Hi Alex,

I have a somewhat similar situation on my SM. A small cleat was ripped out of the mast and it pulled out the threaded inserts. I think the holes in the mast are deformed or enlarged just enough that the same size rivnuts/threaded inserts will not fit properly. If I drill the holes larger, then I don't think the next size up bolts will fit through the cleat.

I'm still pondering how to go about this. Ideally I'd like to re-use the cleat I already have. Open to any ideas or suggestions.

I think new rivnuts/threaded inserts is the way to go but clearly that comes with its own complications. I think you could modify the holes in your mast and the holes on the plate of your pole mount (if necessary) in order to fit new rivnuts and bolts. For me, I'm not sure drilling out the holes of the small cleat is a good option. FYI, a proper rivnut tool is very helpful when installing as opposed to using nut and bolt.

The dissimilar metals in close contact may have accelerated the failure of your rivets. Try to insulate or use something like Tef-Gel when you put the new hardware in.

Cheers,
Mike Longcor
SV Trilogy SM23
NZ

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 4:32 AM Alex BAIZEAU <alexandre.baizeau@...> wrote:
Hey Bill,

Thanks for the reply. It’s shiny and heavy so I’m positive it’s stainless steel. 

One other difference with the SM design is that the locking pin is not traversing, the pin is spring loaded in the lock position ( you can see it in the first picture of my original email ). You need to pull it down using the lanyard to unlock the small pole. 

I’m going to take it to a machine shop here in Portimao and see what they say regarding copying it in Aluminium. 



On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 3:38 PM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Alex,

Are you sure it is stainless steel?

If it were my Maramu, I would have larger "small-pole mounts to the mainmast" fabricated in a machine shop from Aluminum and consider welding the larger aluminum mounts to the aluminum mast, although I am not sure if that would require a thicker mast or some sort of backing plate. Of course the new aluminum mount could be riveted. The Super Maramu small-pole mounts were made of aluminum and welded to the mainmast.

Also, if you decide to have these fabricated, you might want to announce that in this Group, because I am sure that other Maramu owners would consider joining the order.

SM "small-pole mounts to the mainmast" (circled in green) are aluminum and welded to the mainmast:
image.png


On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 8:45 AM Alex BAIZEAU <alexandre.baizeau@...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

We own a Maramu rigged with the system of twin small and long poles.

The piece of stainless steel that attach the port small pole to the mast broke off while deploying the large pole. It's was held in place by rivets but they corroded away.

The rivet holes have been enlarged (see attached picture) either by corrosion or when trying to drill the rivets out so I can't just re rivet the piece to the mast.

I wonder what are my options to reattach this critical piece of equipement. 

 

Here iare the 3 options that I've though of so far:


- Redrill 3 cmm higher or lower on the mast and re-rivet. The issue is that the small pole won't be lined up with the support ring on the standing rigging exactly how it was before

or 

- Enlarge the holes and use threaded inserts - It sounds like the most robust option to me but I'm not sure if I'm capable of enlarging these holes without making a bigger mess
or 


- Have the piece mounted on a larger plate so that it can be mounted at the same height than before.

I would appreciate any suggestion


Here is a picture of the piece itself:
I

Here are the rivet holes in the mast


Here is the back of the piece


And the starboard side for reference.



Thank you so much and have a great day

 

Alex Baizeau

Maramu #207 Barth
Re: Firefly batteries

Bill Kinney
 

Paul,

Our batteries are connected like this:



(Except with 8 instead of 6).

You might want to check the information about the maximum battery back that can be created.  I KNOW that they do not recommend connecting more than 4 in SERIES (as you would if you were making a 48Volt bank), but I can think of no reason that the number of parallel batteries would be limited. My manual doesn't suggest any limit.

I found the terminals of the Firefly G31 batteries to be slightly taller than the Lifeline batteries they replaced, but our fitting isn't tight, so a bit of expansion in footprint I would not have noticed.  Generally, for any battery, it is not a great idea to have them pressed tightly together. They need a bit of air space to lose heat..  Firefly suggests a minimum of 1cm between batteries.

I might be labeled a heretic but do you really NEED 12 batteries? We have never been in a situation where we felt we wanted more than the 8 our boat came with.  The Firefly batteries are happy with a deeper discharge profile than the FLA batteries the 54 was designed with.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA
Re: Info on Henri Amel

CW Bill Rouse
 

Mickey,

I do not know if you have seen it, but there is a very good explanation of what Henri accomplished in a timeline format on Amel's website. It is named "Our Story" and I have a pdf copy here, but the pdf is not as good as the link below to Amel's website:
 Our story - AMEL.pdf
Visit the Amel Story here: https://amel.fr/en/our-story/
This could be the foundation of your presentation.

Also, I have been collecting other Amel "historical" documents which you can see and download here:
I hope this helps you and others with Henri Amel's history.
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:12 PM Micky Ball <mik-ball@...> wrote:
Good Evening / Morning fellow Amelians , this is an unusual request ( hope I wont be banned ) . I have been asked , at short notice to fill in and do a 15minute talk at my local Rotary Club on Tuesday evening  and I thought Henri Amel and his  success would be a good topic for it . Would any of you have any interesting anecdotes/ short stories that may help ??
    Thanks in Advance 
  Micky Ball Future Super Maramu Owner  , Currently in sunny SW Scotland , Kirkcudbright ( oneof Scotlands oldest Ports )

Info on Henri Amel

Micky Ball
 

Good Evening / Morning fellow Amelians , this is an unusual request ( hope I wont be banned ) . I have been asked , at short notice to fill in and do a 15minute talk at my local Rotary Club on Tuesday evening  and I thought Henri Amel and his  success would be a good topic for it . Would any of you have any interesting anecdotes/ short stories that may help ??
    Thanks in Advance 
  Micky Ball Future Super Maramu Owner  , Currently in sunny SW Scotland , Kirkcudbright ( oneof Scotlands oldest Ports )
3101 - 3120 of 63509