Date   

Re: Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Brent Cameron
 

Thanks Danny.  I’ve been lucky enough to have crewed on four different long passages across three different Super Maramu’s and I believe everything you have said.  Just to be clear, my sailing comments in the last note are about the big Beneteau and not the Super Maramu’s!!!    Those passages (and the skipper’s that I’ve met)  made me 100% convinced that the Amel is the right boat for me.  I have absolutely no doubt that the Amel’s can sail safely long past the point where I’d want to be out there!  Your comments just cement it.   I will finally join the fraternity of owners just as soon as this Covid fiasco lets us travel globally again. Thanks for these anecdotes. I love them. 

Brent

On Oct 11, 2021, 5:50 PM -0400, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>, wrote:

Hi Brent et al,

We have a lot of new members of this group and new owners and wannabe owners so I am going to share some of my experiences sailing Ocean Pearl. SM 299

First up, they are not slow and with practice can point quite well.

We bought her in Florida 13 years ago and our first sail was 1000 miles to Newport RI. Then we went out to Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. My previous boat had been a lightweight 42 footer cruiser racer. I was utterly disgusted with the SM. I called it an overpriced lump of junk. In light airs I just could not make her go. Then on the sail back from Nantucket I applied myself. I was no longer in a 6 tonne racer. Sail trim had to be seriously different. Much more power was needed ie trim the sails full. Bit by bit I learned how to make her go. Later, on an overnight inter island voyage in the Caribbean we set off in the evening behind a group of 15 or 20 going the same way. Wind probably 10 to 15 knots. We caught up quickly and in the night sailed through the group. One wag came on the VHF with a warning "watch out, there is an Amel Super Maramu coming through and there is someone water skiing behind".

Another time we were going down the Jersey coast at night, Yvonne on the helm. We were sailing past another boat of similar size, he called up on the VHF and accused Yvonne of exceeding the speed limit.

Down wind. If you are disinclined to put up the twin headsails what I call triple wing on wing gives a noticeable increase in speed. Head sail to one side, main to the other and mizzen same side as the headsail. Main and mizzen with preventers on. The wind hits the mizzen, accelerates across it and into the main, accelerates again and into the headsail. This double acceleration put the best effect into the biggest sail. Because of this effect the headsail stands up well even if not poled out. Of course if you have the twin headsails up it is better.

We did the Caribbean 1500 rally in 6 days. Hampton Virginia to Tortola BVI. We had two guys with us as extras. When we got there we said to each other if we lived to 100 we would never get a better dream run that that. By rally rules when corrected for engine time we were 5th out of 60 boats. A Beneteau 50 came in more than 24 hours behind us saying "oh my god, what a nightmare, horrible."

On the Pacific "puddle jump" crossing from the Galapagos to the Marquesas islands, 3200 miles we did in 17 days. 4 days very little wind and wind mostly under 20 knots. No one in the crossing group got there faster than us.

Their ability in gale and storm conditions is legendary. As wind increases it is so easy to reduce sail and even running in a gale with big seas the auto helm still controls things. A rider to that statement. Have the right amount of sail up correctly trimmed.

In true wind up to 20 knots with the apparent wind angle about 120 to 135 degrees 4 sail reaching is powerful and fast. The mizzen staysail is very easy to set and drop. I can do it single handed.

When I cant go cruising I do the occasional race in our small club. The competitors are race optimised 30 to 42 footers. I have learned to get pointing angles similar to them and if the wind is above 15 knots we are very competitive. Of course our water line length helps..

I could go on. The ease of sail control, the cockpit capable of being fully enclosed with clears and the downright safety of the boat are outstanding.

Cheers

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 10 October 2021 at 17:11 "Brent Cameron via groups.io" <brentcameron61@...> wrote:

Thanks Danny. That confirmed my suspicions.  We didn’t have more than 2-3m seas and 20kts of wind so I didn’t see her bend but like the difference between a Honda Honda Civic and a Mercedes, you can just feel it. (No disrespect to Honda Civic owners… I have both so can make the comparison fairly).   Everything felt undersized for the size of the boat. 

Pat, we only had about 2 hours upwind and I wasn’t hugely impressed by how well it pointed (I thought it would point better as the Genoa tracks are well inboard of the stays unlike the Super Maramu but I guess it’s beamy enough that it negates the difference.  Downwind in 20 knots it did better occasionally surfing down the swells but it’s longer waterline helped a bit too. We saw 10 Kts pretty consistently without surfing and a bit faster when surfing although she’s a big boat so doesn’t accelerate quickly either. 

Nick, we had to motor sail too when the wind was below 10 knots. It’s a horrible place to be on that aft helm when motor sailing downwind as you sit in a fog of diesel exhaust. I’d be changing from side to side to get away from it.  We couldn’t turn upwind on a bit of a reach as we were going by Cuba and didn’t want to get too close so had to put up with dead downwind for much of it until we rounded Cuba (headed for Isla Muerta.).  Good thing you have two rudders :-)  I saw a video somewhere (maybe here) where people were towing a dingy through that area and the orcas left the rudders alone and played with the dingy. Perhaps dragging some fenders or some such might distract them. Good luck!!!

Brent
On Oct 9, 2021, 9:18 PM -0400, ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>, wrote:
We are  motorsailing downwind 12 kn true wind 90 miles east of Gibraltar.
I have been so disappointed in the sailing performance of this boat…she just does not go..she has a clean bottom…my conclusion is that she is grossly overloaded for the design. The excessive wide stern and twin rudders  seam to hold the boat back. 
In my racing days we used to talk about the “prismatic coefficient” the idea being that in light airs when running downwind boats that scored well outperformed. The excessive wide Beneteau would score poorly and a 54 or Supermaramu would score well. Only when there is sufficient wind to get the Beneteau up onto a plane will she take off…but by then one feels too exposed and reefs!
I think the designers look at the super fast open 60’s and try to copy them, but then they add the thrusters and aircons and genset and it just does not work…

Does anyone know about the Prismatic Coefficient?
After Gib we have to run through Orca alley…which is a bit of a worry.

Nick
S/Y Amelia  AML54 -019


 

On 9 Oct 2021, at 23:52, Patrick McAneny via groups.io <sailw32@...> wrote:

I  had one experience with a Beneteau Sense ,heading north past St.Vincent. I was very surprised , I came up from behind ,overtook him and in a matter of a couple of hours lost sight of him along with several production cats we passed.He had a full set of sails flying and they were trimmed well. I always look to be certain that the other boat is trimmed well. I would thought that he would have been the faster boat. 
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Oct 9, 2021 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Hi Brent,
I was in Vuda Point Fiji a couple of years ago and a new Bene Oceanis 55 was alongside me. The professional skipper was delivering her. He had just completed an ocean passage to Fiji. He referred to the boat as a "Bendyto" He was so concerned at the degree of hull flex they had experienced that he was going throughout the boat to check for delamination of stringers before he was prepared to  continue the delivery.
I agree the Beneteau is a superb charter and inshore vessel, that's what they are designed for. This applies to many of the other charter designed production boats. They are not designed for ocean crossings, particularly not short handed. I know there are many doing ocean passages but in extreme weather and massive seas I believe they would be dangerous. Not least because of the wide open spaces in the cockpit and below. Serious injuries from falling are a big risk. Likewise, the hulls are not constructed to withstand extreme conditions. Two years ago a Bavaria that had circumnavigated was overwhelmed in a storm just out from Cape Brett at the entrance to the Bay of Islands NZ. A wave broke over her, the cabin windows blew out and she sank in about 20 minutes. Through incredible skill of the rescue services all the crew were rescued but sadly the skipper succumbed to hypothermia.
Horses for courses
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 09 October 2021 at 01:13 "Brent Cameron via groups.io" <brentcameron61@...> wrote:

I’ve had the opportunity to do long passages on both Amel Super Maramu’s and a Beneteau Sense 55 back to back and I agree that there isn’t much of a comparison.  While the 55 had a lot more room both below and above deck and would be a much better charter boat (the reason my cousin bought it), at sea they are completely different animals.   That wide open rear deck and seats at the aft corners looks marvellous at the dock but out in big seas or even motoring downwind it’s not a very fun place to be (the exhaust gets you). No way you can really sail it singlehanded as even racking the boat things are way too far away from the helm stations. The winches are used for furling the massive Genoa and that can only be done from one side so again, it’s at least a two person job. It was fast downhill as we saw 10 knots fairly consistently but the motion wasn’t great with a lot of banging of that big flat stern. The cockpit was extremely wide with no proper handholds (same in the galley) so the boat on the lean was actually dangerous as if you fell off the top side to the bottom you’d fly across 10-12’ of space before intercepting something hard to stop (hopefully) you. 

The electrical systems on the Beneteau were bare minimum and sprinkled all throughout the boat making diagnostics much tougher. We had to get into some really tight locations and empty out entire lockers to get at key things which seemed really poor planning. The inverters were really cheap and small (and lasted about as long as you’d expect).  It had three separate battery banks, including one up front for the bow thruster, none in easy spots to get at so I suspect regular inspections would suffer. Engine and generator access was poor and I can’t imagine having to work on the generator at sea. Both were undersized in my humble opinion. Same goes for the winches and brakes. The sail control lines were a mess running all over (and under the deck) and not a lot made sense as you couldn’t trace a line to what it did. With time, you’d of course learn but for new crew (and owners) it wasn’t intuitive like the Amels. You also NEED to be on deck to furl which was disappointing to say the least. 

That said, the boats are designed and intended for completely different missions. If I was doing a charter in the BVI’s or sitting at the dock or anchor for months in end, I’d pick the Beneteau as it’s a heck of a lot of boat (real estate wise) for the money.  That front owners cabin as humongous and the two private cabins are a nice touch with lots of privacy but not a proper sea bunk on the boat.  If I had to sail it out of there to get away from anything stronger than 30!knots, I’d trade two of them for an Amel in a heartbeat. For cruising around the world, for me there is no comparison. I think that a cruising couple should be able to single hand sail and that’s just not possible on the big Beneteau. You’d be sailing around with the sails furled up as a precaution and then wouldn’t be able to get at the extra speed it can carry because of the long waterline. To each their own but I know which I’d pick. 

Brent
On Oct 8, 2021, 4:16 AM -0400, ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>, wrote:
Fellow Amel owners

I am so happy I bought an Amel 54… I am doing a delivery of a Beneteau 55. You would think that she would out-sail my 54….. No way….She just does not go without lots of wind. It must be that wide stern twin rudder arrangement. It is sticky.
It does not have a pole! So down wind is painful.
Then the twin helms are so exposed I fear falling overboard, no wonder life jackets and harnesses are de-rigeur…do not get me started on the engineering, the finish, the motion at sea….
“Love knows not it’s own depth until the hour of separation” is as true with lovers as with boats….
Nick
Temporarily separated from Amelia
AML 54-019






 

--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada

 
 



--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada



--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Powder coating the wheel

eric freedman <kimberlite@...>
 

After almost 20 years the wheel on Kimberlite was looking sad. In addition, the silver metal inserts caused galvanic corrosion and that exacerbated the ugliness of the wheel. Having to tie down the wheel during the hurricane also scratched up the leather quite a bit.

I removed the wheel using a wheel puller and my impact drill. It came off in 2 minutes.

 

I put screws in the holes that hold the Amel Logo in place, and a bolt through the center bushing and a bolt in each of the threaded holes that I used to pull the wheel. I just wanted to make sure the media blaster and the powder coater did not damage the threads and the center bushing.

 

I had the wheel media blasted and then took it to a powder coater. I just picked up the wheel. It looks great. Maud arranged to have a new wheel cover made . I will not be replacing the metal stripes in the spokes.

 

Lets see how good my sewing is.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 


email bounce test

eric freedman <kimberlite@...>
 

No need to reply


Re: Net call - potential water ingress point on all Super Maramus

John Clark
 

Right, the interior of that “amel dorade” is coated with a black paint like material. I never gave it much 
thought.   Glad to be alerted to a sensitive spot.  

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 7:40 PM Marty Crighton <dogfacedsailor@...> wrote:
John - the ply is the bulkhead. Only an issue if there is water ingress.
Flexseal or similar might work. On our boat there is a black coating that is beginning to wear off that may have been a similar product used by Amel during manufacture.
Respectfully 
Marty

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 19:34 John Clark <john.biohead@...> wrote:
On Annie SM37 we have not experienced water pooling up in that space, nor do I see exposed plywood.  
Would a flexible rubberized paint be a good preventative?  Think “flexseal” as a continuous membrane throughout the small space?  

Regards,  John Clark 

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 6:59 PM Marty Crighton <dogfacedsailor@...> wrote:
Craig - sound advice, thanks. We will add that to our preventative measures.
Still can't see any good reason to have an opening like that in the first place without a vent cover. In our testing it was surprising how fast and how much rain water runs into and through that compartment. Even if one gets the boat better balanced, when the adhesive bond breaks down, and it will at some point, there will be water ingress and no one will be the wiser until it is too late. Between that compartment and the bulkhead there are significant voids many filled with foam. In fact there is foam partially filling the void just behind the corner aft of the drain hole. That foam buts up against naked ply in the bulkhead.. Once that foam is saturated water has unlimited and long lasting contact with ply causing damage without any visible signs to an owner.
Respectfully,
Marty

Nada, SM2K #327
Grenada

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 17:06 Craig Briggs via groups.io <sangaris=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Marty,
Sounds like the notorious "Amel stern squat" may be causing water to pool in the aft portion of the vent compartment - often exacerbated by "stuff" on the stern (arch, davits, outboard in rear lazarett). Add 10 shots of anchor chain forward and see if it fixes it. 
Craig - SN68 Sangaris, in Oriental, NC "the sailing capital of North Carolina"

--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Future Amel Owners
Pyeongtaek, South Korea


--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Future Amel Owners
Pyeongtaek, South Korea


Saturday 10/16 Annapolis "open boat"

Karen Smith
 

Amel Super Maramu #160 Harmonie is in Annapolis, Maryland and having an "open boat" next Saturday October 16th 4-8 pm, and you are invited! We love meeting current, past and future Amelians! If you, or someone you know is interested in Amel, please do come!

We are in the water at Bert Jabins Yacht Yard, in front of the gazebo. Look for the Amel flag!
(Harmonie is not for sale, we plan to circumnavigate once the world opens up).

Karen Smith & Bill Kinney

Masks or vaccinated, please!

Please do RSVP to KLS6917@...


Re: Net call - potential water ingress point on all Super Maramus

Marty Crighton
 

John - the ply is the bulkhead. Only an issue if there is water ingress.
Flexseal or similar might work. On our boat there is a black coating that is beginning to wear off that may have been a similar product used by Amel during manufacture.
Respectfully 
Marty


On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 19:34 John Clark <john.biohead@...> wrote:
On Annie SM37 we have not experienced water pooling up in that space, nor do I see exposed plywood.  
Would a flexible rubberized paint be a good preventative?  Think “flexseal” as a continuous membrane throughout the small space?  

Regards,  John Clark 

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 6:59 PM Marty Crighton <dogfacedsailor@...> wrote:
Craig - sound advice, thanks. We will add that to our preventative measures.
Still can't see any good reason to have an opening like that in the first place without a vent cover. In our testing it was surprising how fast and how much rain water runs into and through that compartment. Even if one gets the boat better balanced, when the adhesive bond breaks down, and it will at some point, there will be water ingress and no one will be the wiser until it is too late. Between that compartment and the bulkhead there are significant voids many filled with foam. In fact there is foam partially filling the void just behind the corner aft of the drain hole. That foam buts up against naked ply in the bulkhead.. Once that foam is saturated water has unlimited and long lasting contact with ply causing damage without any visible signs to an owner.
Respectfully,
Marty

Nada, SM2K #327
Grenada

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 17:06 Craig Briggs via groups.io <sangaris=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Marty,
Sounds like the notorious "Amel stern squat" may be causing water to pool in the aft portion of the vent compartment - often exacerbated by "stuff" on the stern (arch, davits, outboard in rear lazarett). Add 10 shots of anchor chain forward and see if it fixes it. 
Craig - SN68 Sangaris, in Oriental, NC "the sailing capital of North Carolina"

--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Future Amel Owners
Pyeongtaek, South Korea


--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Future Amel Owners
Pyeongtaek, South Korea


Re: Net call - potential water ingress point on all Super Maramus

John Clark
 

On Annie SM37 we have not experienced water pooling up in that space, nor do I see exposed plywood.  
Would a flexible rubberized paint be a good preventative?  Think “flexseal” as a continuous membrane throughout the small space?  

Regards,  John Clark 

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 6:59 PM Marty Crighton <dogfacedsailor@...> wrote:
Craig - sound advice, thanks. We will add that to our preventative measures.
Still can't see any good reason to have an opening like that in the first place without a vent cover. In our testing it was surprising how fast and how much rain water runs into and through that compartment. Even if one gets the boat better balanced, when the adhesive bond breaks down, and it will at some point, there will be water ingress and no one will be the wiser until it is too late. Between that compartment and the bulkhead there are significant voids many filled with foam. In fact there is foam partially filling the void just behind the corner aft of the drain hole. That foam buts up against naked ply in the bulkhead.. Once that foam is saturated water has unlimited and long lasting contact with ply causing damage without any visible signs to an owner.
Respectfully,
Marty

Nada, SM2K #327
Grenada

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 17:06 Craig Briggs via groups.io <sangaris=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Marty,
Sounds like the notorious "Amel stern squat" may be causing water to pool in the aft portion of the vent compartment - often exacerbated by "stuff" on the stern (arch, davits, outboard in rear lazarett). Add 10 shots of anchor chain forward and see if it fixes it. 
Craig - SN68 Sangaris, in Oriental, NC "the sailing capital of North Carolina"

--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Future Amel Owners
Pyeongtaek, South Korea


Re: Net call - potential water ingress point on all Super Maramus

Marty Crighton
 

Craig - sound advice, thanks. We will add that to our preventative measures.
Still can't see any good reason to have an opening like that in the first place without a vent cover. In our testing it was surprising how fast and how much rain water runs into and through that compartment. Even if one gets the boat better balanced, when the adhesive bond breaks down, and it will at some point, there will be water ingress and no one will be the wiser until it is too late. Between that compartment and the bulkhead there are significant voids many filled with foam. In fact there is foam partially filling the void just behind the corner aft of the drain hole. That foam buts up against naked ply in the bulkhead.. Once that foam is saturated water has unlimited and long lasting contact with ply causing damage without any visible signs to an owner.
Respectfully,
Marty

Nada, SM2K #327
Grenada

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 17:06 Craig Briggs via groups.io <sangaris=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Marty,
Sounds like the notorious "Amel stern squat" may be causing water to pool in the aft portion of the vent compartment - often exacerbated by "stuff" on the stern (arch, davits, outboard in rear lazarett). Add 10 shots of anchor chain forward and see if it fixes it. 
Craig - SN68 Sangaris, in Oriental, NC "the sailing capital of North Carolina"


--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Future Amel Owners
Pyeongtaek, South Korea


Re: Firefly batteries

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Without midpoint voltage monitoring, connecting the mid points is not recommended as it will mask a battery problem.

From Victron (BMV manual):
"Midpoints should not be interconnected: one bad battery can go unnoticed and could damage all other batteries."

We run our six Fireflys in series parallel with 3 individual balancers. Feels like overkill but it works well. With an upgraded battery monitor, I would probably connect the midpoints so loads and charges are more evenly shared.

Cheers,
Mike Longcor
SV Trilogy SM23
NZ


On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 8:58 AM Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
FWIW, my Victron batteries (Smart lifepo4 12.8v) documentation explicitly states "Do not interconnect the midpoints". See drawing on bottom of page1. FYI the gray lines are the data cables for the BMS.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-12,8-&-25,6-Volt-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-Smart-EN.pdf

When I installed my system 3 years ago, I wanted to connect the midpoints and use a battery balancer and decided against it. 

Perhaps this is not an issue with Fireflies/AGM/Gel/FLA.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Brent et al,

We have a lot of new members of this group and new owners and wannabe owners so I am going to share some of my experiences sailing Ocean Pearl. SM 299

First up, they are not slow and with practice can point quite well.

We bought her in Florida 13 years ago and our first sail was 1000 miles to Newport RI. Then we went out to Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. My previous boat had been a lightweight 42 footer cruiser racer. I was utterly disgusted with the SM. I called it an overpriced lump of junk. In light airs I just could not make her go. Then on the sail back from Nantucket I applied myself. I was no longer in a 6 tonne racer. Sail trim had to be seriously different. Much more power was needed ie trim the sails full. Bit by bit I learned how to make her go. Later, on an overnight inter island voyage in the Caribbean we set off in the evening behind a group of 15 or 20 going the same way. Wind probably 10 to 15  knots. We caught up quickly and in the night sailed through the group. One wag came on the VHF with a warning "watch out, there is an Amel Super Maramu coming through and there is someone water skiing behind".

Another time we were going down the Jersey coast at night, Yvonne on the helm. We were sailing past another boat of similar size, he called up on the VHF and accused Yvonne of exceeding the speed limit. 

Down wind. If you are disinclined to put up the twin headsails what I call triple wing on wing gives a noticeable increase in speed. Head sail to one side, main to the other and mizzen same side as the headsail. Main and mizzen with preventers on. The wind hits the mizzen, accelerates across it and into the main, accelerates again and into the headsail. This double acceleration put the best effect into the biggest sail. Because of this effect the headsail stands up well even if not poled out. Of course if you have the twin headsails up it is better.

We did the Caribbean 1500 rally in 6 days. Hampton Virginia to Tortola BVI. We had two guys with us as extras. When we got there we said to each other if we lived to 100 we would never get a better dream run that that. By rally rules when corrected for engine time we were 5th out of 60 boats. A Beneteau 50 came in more than 24 hours behind us saying "oh my god, what a nightmare, horrible." 

On the Pacific "puddle jump" crossing from the Galapagos to the Marquesas islands, 3200 miles we did in 17 days. 4 days very little wind and wind mostly under 20 knots. No one in the crossing group got there faster than us.

Their ability in gale and storm conditions is legendary. As wind increases it is so easy to reduce sail and even running in a gale with big seas the auto helm still controls things. A rider to that statement. Have the right amount of sail up correctly trimmed.

In true wind up to 20 knots with the apparent wind angle about 120 to 135 degrees 4 sail reaching is powerful and fast. The mizzen staysail is very easy to set and drop. I can do it single handed.

When I cant go cruising I do the occasional race in our small club. The competitors are race optimised 30 to 42 footers. I have learned to get pointing angles similar to them and if the wind is above 15 knots we are very competitive. Of course our water line length helps..

I could go on. The ease of sail control, the cockpit capable of being fully enclosed with clears and the downright safety of the boat are outstanding.

Cheers

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 10 October 2021 at 17:11 "Brent Cameron via groups.io" <brentcameron61@...> wrote:

Thanks Danny. That confirmed my suspicions.  We didn’t have more than 2-3m seas and 20kts of wind so I didn’t see her bend but like the difference between a Honda Honda Civic and a Mercedes, you can just feel it. (No disrespect to Honda Civic owners… I have both so can make the comparison fairly).   Everything felt undersized for the size of the boat. 

Pat, we only had about 2 hours upwind and I wasn’t hugely impressed by how well it pointed (I thought it would point better as the Genoa tracks are well inboard of the stays unlike the Super Maramu but I guess it’s beamy enough that it negates the difference.  Downwind in 20 knots it did better occasionally surfing down the swells but it’s longer waterline helped a bit too. We saw 10 Kts pretty consistently without surfing and a bit faster when surfing although she’s a big boat so doesn’t accelerate quickly either. 

Nick, we had to motor sail too when the wind was below 10 knots. It’s a horrible place to be on that aft helm when motor sailing downwind as you sit in a fog of diesel exhaust. I’d be changing from side to side to get away from it.  We couldn’t turn upwind on a bit of a reach as we were going by Cuba and didn’t want to get too close so had to put up with dead downwind for much of it until we rounded Cuba (headed for Isla Muerta.).  Good thing you have two rudders :-)  I saw a video somewhere (maybe here) where people were towing a dingy through that area and the orcas left the rudders alone and played with the dingy. Perhaps dragging some fenders or some such might distract them. Good luck!!!

Brent
On Oct 9, 2021, 9:18 PM -0400, ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>, wrote:
We are  motorsailing downwind 12 kn true wind 90 miles east of Gibraltar.
I have been so disappointed in the sailing performance of this boat…she just does not go..she has a clean bottom…my conclusion is that she is grossly overloaded for the design. The excessive wide stern and twin rudders  seam to hold the boat back. 
In my racing days we used to talk about the “prismatic coefficient” the idea being that in light airs when running downwind boats that scored well outperformed. The excessive wide Beneteau would score poorly and a 54 or Supermaramu would score well. Only when there is sufficient wind to get the Beneteau up onto a plane will she take off…but by then one feels too exposed and reefs!
I think the designers look at the super fast open 60’s and try to copy them, but then they add the thrusters and aircons and genset and it just does not work…

Does anyone know about the Prismatic Coefficient?
After Gib we have to run through Orca alley…which is a bit of a worry.

Nick
S/Y Amelia  AML54 -019


 

On 9 Oct 2021, at 23:52, Patrick McAneny via groups.io <sailw32@...> wrote:

I  had one experience with a Beneteau Sense ,heading north past St.Vincent. I was very surprised , I came up from behind ,overtook him and in a matter of a couple of hours lost sight of him along with several production cats we passed.He had a full set of sails flying and they were trimmed well. I always look to be certain that the other boat is trimmed well. I would thought that he would have been the faster boat. 
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Oct 9, 2021 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel 54 v Beneteau 55

Hi Brent,
I was in Vuda Point Fiji a couple of years ago and a new Bene Oceanis 55 was alongside me. The professional skipper was delivering her. He had just completed an ocean passage to Fiji. He referred to the boat as a "Bendyto" He was so concerned at the degree of hull flex they had experienced that he was going throughout the boat to check for delamination of stringers before he was prepared to  continue the delivery.
I agree the Beneteau is a superb charter and inshore vessel, that's what they are designed for. This applies to many of the other charter designed production boats. They are not designed for ocean crossings, particularly not short handed. I know there are many doing ocean passages but in extreme weather and massive seas I believe they would be dangerous. Not least because of the wide open spaces in the cockpit and below. Serious injuries from falling are a big risk. Likewise, the hulls are not constructed to withstand extreme conditions. Two years ago a Bavaria that had circumnavigated was overwhelmed in a storm just out from Cape Brett at the entrance to the Bay of Islands NZ. A wave broke over her, the cabin windows blew out and she sank in about 20 minutes. Through incredible skill of the rescue services all the crew were rescued but sadly the skipper succumbed to hypothermia.
Horses for courses
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 09 October 2021 at 01:13 "Brent Cameron via groups.io" <brentcameron61@...> wrote:

I’ve had the opportunity to do long passages on both Amel Super Maramu’s and a Beneteau Sense 55 back to back and I agree that there isn’t much of a comparison.  While the 55 had a lot more room both below and above deck and would be a much better charter boat (the reason my cousin bought it), at sea they are completely different animals.   That wide open rear deck and seats at the aft corners looks marvellous at the dock but out in big seas or even motoring downwind it’s not a very fun place to be (the exhaust gets you). No way you can really sail it singlehanded as even racking the boat things are way too far away from the helm stations. The winches are used for furling the massive Genoa and that can only be done from one side so again, it’s at least a two person job. It was fast downhill as we saw 10 knots fairly consistently but the motion wasn’t great with a lot of banging of that big flat stern. The cockpit was extremely wide with no proper handholds (same in the galley) so the boat on the lean was actually dangerous as if you fell off the top side to the bottom you’d fly across 10-12’ of space before intercepting something hard to stop (hopefully) you. 

The electrical systems on the Beneteau were bare minimum and sprinkled all throughout the boat making diagnostics much tougher. We had to get into some really tight locations and empty out entire lockers to get at key things which seemed really poor planning. The inverters were really cheap and small (and lasted about as long as you’d expect).  It had three separate battery banks, including one up front for the bow thruster, none in easy spots to get at so I suspect regular inspections would suffer. Engine and generator access was poor and I can’t imagine having to work on the generator at sea. Both were undersized in my humble opinion. Same goes for the winches and brakes. The sail control lines were a mess running all over (and under the deck) and not a lot made sense as you couldn’t trace a line to what it did. With time, you’d of course learn but for new crew (and owners) it wasn’t intuitive like the Amels. You also NEED to be on deck to furl which was disappointing to say the least. 

That said, the boats are designed and intended for completely different missions. If I was doing a charter in the BVI’s or sitting at the dock or anchor for months in end, I’d pick the Beneteau as it’s a heck of a lot of boat (real estate wise) for the money.  That front owners cabin as humongous and the two private cabins are a nice touch with lots of privacy but not a proper sea bunk on the boat.  If I had to sail it out of there to get away from anything stronger than 30!knots, I’d trade two of them for an Amel in a heartbeat. For cruising around the world, for me there is no comparison. I think that a cruising couple should be able to single hand sail and that’s just not possible on the big Beneteau. You’d be sailing around with the sails furled up as a precaution and then wouldn’t be able to get at the extra speed it can carry because of the long waterline. To each their own but I know which I’d pick. 

Brent
On Oct 8, 2021, 4:16 AM -0400, ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>, wrote:
Fellow Amel owners

I am so happy I bought an Amel 54… I am doing a delivery of a Beneteau 55. You would think that she would out-sail my 54….. No way….She just does not go without lots of wind. It must be that wide stern twin rudder arrangement. It is sticky.
It does not have a pole! So down wind is painful.
Then the twin helms are so exposed I fear falling overboard, no wonder life jackets and harnesses are de-rigeur…do not get me started on the engineering, the finish, the motion at sea….
“Love knows not it’s own depth until the hour of separation” is as true with lovers as with boats….
Nick
Temporarily separated from Amelia
AML 54-019






 

--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada

 
 


 


--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


 


Re: Net call - potential water ingress point on all Super Maramus

Craig Briggs
 

Hi Marty,
Sounds like the notorious "Amel stern squat" may be causing water to pool in the aft portion of the vent compartment - often exacerbated by "stuff" on the stern (arch, davits, outboard in rear lazarett). Add 10 shots of anchor chain forward and see if it fixes it. 
Craig - SN68 Sangaris, in Oriental, NC "the sailing capital of North Carolina"


Re: Firefly batteries

Scott SV Tengah
 

FWIW, my Victron batteries (Smart lifepo4 12.8v) documentation explicitly states "Do not interconnect the midpoints". See drawing on bottom of page1. FYI the gray lines are the data cables for the BMS.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-12,8-&-25,6-Volt-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-Smart-EN.pdf

When I installed my system 3 years ago, I wanted to connect the midpoints and use a battery balancer and decided against it. 

Perhaps this is not an issue with Fireflies/AGM/Gel/FLA.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Firefly batteries

Paul Dowd and Sharon Brown
 

Hi Bill,

 

That’s very useful to know. Just one thing that occurred to me, do you have any cable specs for this arrangement? Presumably I would replace the Amel installed six +ive & -ive cables with a two of a bigger gauge?

 

Cheers,

Paul

 

Paul Dowd & Sharon Brown

S/Y Ya Fohi, Amel 54 #98
tel: +44 (0)7710 466619

skype: pauldowd
web:
https://my.yb.tl/yafohi

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Kinney
Sent: 11 October 2021 20:14
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Firefly batteries

 

Jamie,

The drawing is correct, and generates 24 volts.  A full explanation is here:  https://fetchinketch.net/boat_thoughts/battery-connections/(opens in a new tab)

The common connection across the "middle" of the bank allows a single battery balancer to keep the batteries high and low at the same voltage during charging. It also makes certain that load and charging current is evenly shared between every battery in the system. It also allows us to easily measure and detect a single badly performing battery by monitoring the voltages of the upper and lower halves of the bank.  https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Battery-Balancer-EN.pdf

In any multiple battery system the important thing is to be sure that the batteries share the load and the charging current and voltages as identically as possible. If this is not done, over time some batteries are chronically undercharged, and others are overcharged. This will shorten the lifespan of the bank as a whole, and increases the chance of a "shorted" battery to kill all the others.

For batteries like flooded lead acid that are regularly equalized this this isn't so much an issue, the equalization process balances the batteries.  Gel and AGM batteries typically are NOT equalized, and therefore need more attention to this.  It is possible that the regular "restoration charges" that Firefly recommends (and that we do) fully addresses this issue, but the addition of the balancer gives me an extra level of comfort that everything is charging evenly. Our measurements support that this has been effective.

It's useful to remember that with the system as installed by Amel, batteries were expect to be replaced OFTEN.  In the Super Maramu owner's manual Amel says that for a boat that spends most of its time at anchor the lifespan of the batteries "will probably not exceed 18 months." As battery technology has improved, including much more sophisticated charging systems that let us keep our batteries closer to full more of the time, they last a lot longer.  

If you install inexpensive batteries and change them often, you can get away with systems that are simpler than if you use more expensive batteries and more careful controls.  Neither choice is better than the other, they are different and suit different styles of boat use and owner involvement in the details.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD


--
Cheers
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98


Re: Firefly batteries

Bill Kinney
 

Jamie,

The drawing is correct, and generates 24 volts.  A full explanation is here:  https://fetchinketch.net/boat_thoughts/battery-connections/(opens in a new tab)

The common connection across the "middle" of the bank allows a single battery balancer to keep the batteries high and low at the same voltage during charging. It also makes certain that load and charging current is evenly shared between every battery in the system. It also allows us to easily measure and detect a single badly performing battery by monitoring the voltages of the upper and lower halves of the bank.  https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Battery-Balancer-EN.pdf

In any multiple battery system the important thing is to be sure that the batteries share the load and the charging current and voltages as identically as possible. If this is not done, over time some batteries are chronically undercharged, and others are overcharged. This will shorten the lifespan of the bank as a whole, and increases the chance of a "shorted" battery to kill all the others.

For batteries like flooded lead acid that are regularly equalized this this isn't so much an issue, the equalization process balances the batteries.  Gel and AGM batteries typically are NOT equalized, and therefore need more attention to this.  It is possible that the regular "restoration charges" that Firefly recommends (and that we do) fully addresses this issue, but the addition of the balancer gives me an extra level of comfort that everything is charging evenly. Our measurements support that this has been effective.

It's useful to remember that with the system as installed by Amel, batteries were expect to be replaced OFTEN.  In the Super Maramu owner's manual Amel says that for a boat that spends most of its time at anchor the lifespan of the batteries "will probably not exceed 18 months." As battery technology has improved, including much more sophisticated charging systems that let us keep our batteries closer to full more of the time, they last a lot longer.  

If you install inexpensive batteries and change them often, you can get away with systems that are simpler than if you use more expensive batteries and more careful controls.  Neither choice is better than the other, they are different and suit different styles of boat use and owner involvement in the details.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD


Re: Net call - potential water ingress point on all Super Maramus

Marty Crighton
 

Bill - sorry should have done that when I sent it.
All three photos are of the inside of the exhaust cavity looking inboard from the exhaust hole towards the wall of the cavity parallel to the cockpit combing. The throughbolts belong to the aft-most hinge of the portside cockpit locker.
Photo1 is a close up of the drain hole.
Photo 2 is a wider angle of the drain hole with the adhesive visible.
Photo 3 is of the low spot in the cavity aft of the hinge and drain hole. In our experience, this area collects water and where the adhesive deterioration took place and the point of water ingress. 
Marty

NADA, SM2K #327
Grenada


--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Future Amel Owners
Pyeongtaek, South Korea


Re: Net call - potential water ingress point on all Super Maramus

 

Marty,

Thanks for posting. Can you give a description for each of these 3 photos? I randomly assigned numbers to them 1-3 below.

image.png

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 11:41 AM Marty Crighton <dogfacedsailor@...> wrote:
Hello all,
We are relatively new owners of our SM. This community has been a fantastic resource and was one of the reasons we decided to purchase an Amel. (There is great comfort in numbers and even more when those numbers are other owners all of whom have far more knowledge and wisdom and are willing to share.)
In keeping with that tradition I want to alert all SM owners of an issue we found that I suspect exists across the fleet, and one I have not seen addressed recently in this forum. The issue is standing water in the engine room exhaust cavity inside/under the portside cockpit combing. On our boat the drain hole for that cavity is just behind the aft-most hinge of the portside cockpit locker. However that is not the lowpoint in that cavity. The low point is the corner just aft of the drain hole where the cavity, combing and bulkhead meet. This creates space for water to stand.
The second issue discovered is that the bond between the cavity, the combing, and the bulkhead is an adhesive bond. On the inside the corners/edges are not glassed. On our boat that adhesive bond began to fail and that led to water damage along the bulkhead in the aft head. Given the hidden point of the water ingress there was no way to fix the issue until there was visible damage.
This potential weak point is well hidden. I'll leave it to those much smarter and experienced with these great boats to explain why a vent cover was not installed, but based on the standing water we found in that cavity, and the condition of the adhesive we are installing a vent cover to limit the amount of rain water that accumulates.
We did a week of testing to determine how much water gets into that cavity under normal conditions and found it to be significant. In a steady rain the inboard edge will collect over a 1/4 inch of water in 30 min. 
Based on the age of these boats thought those who were not aware might benefit from what we have found and learned and would be grateful for any insights anyone has as to further prevention. 
Respectfully, 
Marty


--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Nada, SM2K #327
Grenada


Net call - potential water ingress point on all Super Maramus

Marty Crighton
 

Hello all,
We are relatively new owners of our SM. This community has been a fantastic resource and was one of the reasons we decided to purchase an Amel. (There is great comfort in numbers and even more when those numbers are other owners all of whom have far more knowledge and wisdom and are willing to share.)
In keeping with that tradition I want to alert all SM owners of an issue we found that I suspect exists across the fleet, and one I have not seen addressed recently in this forum. The issue is standing water in the engine room exhaust cavity inside/under the portside cockpit combing. On our boat the drain hole for that cavity is just behind the aft-most hinge of the portside cockpit locker. However that is not the lowpoint in that cavity. The low point is the corner just aft of the drain hole where the cavity, combing and bulkhead meet. This creates space for water to stand.
The second issue discovered is that the bond between the cavity, the combing, and the bulkhead is an adhesive bond. On the inside the corners/edges are not glassed. On our boat that adhesive bond began to fail and that led to water damage along the bulkhead in the aft head. Given the hidden point of the water ingress there was no way to fix the issue until there was visible damage.
This potential weak point is well hidden. I'll leave it to those much smarter and experienced with these great boats to explain why a vent cover was not installed, but based on the standing water we found in that cavity, and the condition of the adhesive we are installing a vent cover to limit the amount of rain water that accumulates.
We did a week of testing to determine how much water gets into that cavity under normal conditions and found it to be significant. In a steady rain the inboard edge will collect over a 1/4 inch of water in 30 min. 
Based on the age of these boats thought those who were not aware might benefit from what we have found and learned and would be grateful for any insights anyone has as to further prevention. 
Respectfully, 
Marty


--
Marty and Angela Crighton
Nada, SM2K #327
Grenada


Re: Firefly batteries

 

How to wire the battery bank can certainly be debated and the "expert" Nigel Calder will tell you the Henri Amel method is wrong. Others will try to convince you of this also. But, I have been on the other end of a conversation with a panicked owner with a shorted battery. With Henri's method, it is very easy to explain how to remove a pair of batteries. With Nigel Calder's method, it is nearly impossible to explain how to isolate a problem battery. I think I know why Henri made his decision.

Who's method is better? Actually, Nigel Calder's method is technically better in terms of battery balance and may result in 1-5% longer life, but do not call me when you have a problem. I believe that 1-5% improvement is not worth the risk unless you are very familiar with the wiring you choose, as some of you are.😀 I chose not to use Nigel Calder's method.

I am sure that you understand what I am saying.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 8:02 AM Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:
Bill, can you elaborate on your setup. The way you show the drawing it appears as if you actually have 36 volts per "leg" vs 24 volts. I may be misunderstanding the drawing, but I doubt that is the case.
Either way, the issue with series connections is that you have to ensure all in-series batteries are balanced. That is one of the main reasons to limit the number of batteries connected in series, and is a strong incentive to go with 24-volt batteries if possible.
I know that the Fireflys are 12 volts.
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44


Re: B&G Sonic Speed failure

Stefan Jeukendrup
 

Hi David,


The output is a square wave: 6,25 Hz per Knot boat speed so please measure in Hz.

The AGC pin is marked on the board, measure DC with respect to the ground pin.

I expect your electronic board is still OK => missing rubber cap will most likely be the cause: the hole where the cap was fills up quickly with dirt and that stops the sensor "hearing" the sound waves emitted by the other sensor, even if its resistance still measures "good" ( its just a resistor of 100 kilo-ohm soldered over the crystal)

You say the boat is on the hard now so you can clean and then fill the hole with silicone or neoprene ( with or without the rubber cap). Then test with a tube filled with water between the transducers.

But when you are out on the hard anyhow this is the moment to order and replace  Maxmarine electronics still has them.

Of cause you are very welcome in Newry to test your board.


Hope this helps you,


Stefan Jeukendrup

sv Malaka Queen

SM2k #348 @Newry, Northern Ireland


Op 11-10-2021 om 12:37 schreef David Crisp:

Thanks for the advice Stefan.
Yes I did check there was power going to the unit. I also checked the output to the H2000 and saw 150mV. But, darn it I didn't know to check the AGC voltage, I'll do that after I relaunch in the spring (Preveza, Greece).

The hull was clean although one of the transducers is missing its rubber cap, however reading some B&G documents somewhere I got the impression this doesn't matter. 

I've brought the Sonic speed board back home with me (England) and was thinking either to either get it tested or to source a working spare.  If you have a spare I can borrow/buy I'd be interested.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58


Re: Firefly batteries

Jamie Wendell
 

Bill, can you elaborate on your setup. The way you show the drawing it appears as if you actually have 36 volts per "leg" vs 24 volts. I may be misunderstanding the drawing, but I doubt that is the case.
Either way, the issue with series connections is that you have to ensure all in-series batteries are balanced. That is one of the main reasons to limit the number of batteries connected in series, and is a strong incentive to go with 24-volt batteries if possible.
I know that the Fireflys are 12 volts.
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

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