Date   

Re: Trust, but verify...

Patrick McAneny
 

Eric, I kept a previous boat I owned in the BVIs for years, before buying the Amel in 2006 .we have spent a few winters on the Amel in the Eastern Caribbean as well ,so we thought we should give the Bahamas a try ,for a change. I know people that loved it and some not as much ,so we will see for ourselves. 
Thanks,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 7:46 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

Hi Pat,
Where are you headed?
Fair Winds
ERIC
Kimberlite Amel SM 376
 
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 8:07 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...
 
I recently had repairs done by a large and local yard , in my case they did more damage to my boat then they repaired. Towards the end as I tired of repairing their mistakes , even though I had paid them in full for the repairs ,I told them to stop work and that I would finish the repairs myself. I am at the point ,that I trust no one and would rather do the work myself ,if at all possible. 
I am taking my boat to Deltaville for a couple of issues on the way south ,I have heard good things about them and expect to have a good experience with them.
Pat
SM Shenanigans

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...
Arno,

Unfortunately, these mechanics on this project were not at all amateurs, although their work was certainly substandard.  They were full time mechanics working for a major marine service firm. I don't want to point the finger at any specific organization, because that would dilute the message (and get me in trouble with the forum rules!)

This wasn't a case of something that was Amel specific being misunderstood.  Nor was it a case of hiring somebody who was a "shadetree mechanic."  The organization that did this install does MANY engine installs in a year in a major east coast yachting center.  I have no idea how many of them they get this badly wrong.  That's really not my point.  I really just want to push out the fact that these things happen, even with "well qualified" and referenced checked mechanics, and everybody need to be sure they have a way to protect themselves. Some of us have the technical background and skillset to mange the technical sides of these projects. Many others (most?) do not.  For those who are not comfortable evaluating the technical side of a complex boat upgrade project, there is a need to plan ahead to get a second opinion.

It is certainly fortunate to be in a position to be able to do everything yourself, but it is unrealistic to expect that to be an option for all owners.

In discussions I have had about this with people in the industry, the conclusion I have come to is that the really good, and smart, mechanics and other tradesmen, quickly learn to move "up market."  There is a LOT of opportunity for capable and competent people in the super yacht end of the business where the money and working conditions are a LOT better. Just as an example, one of the the best marine refrigeration and electrical businesses in Annapolis no longer works with private clients at all, only professional yacht managers are considered desirable clients.  I certainly understand WHY, but it is still a pain for us with boats that have annual maintenance budgets of less than 6 figures.  We are left with the second string...

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Re: Main Boom outhaul line and Main Boom Traveler line.

Paul Osterberg
 

 Bill!
We use a 10 mm line with Vectran core, work rather well, Vectran has less creep than Dyneema.
probably upgrade to 12 mm next time, will do the pinch test as well
Paul on SM#259 SY Kerpa


Re: Trust, but verify...

Alan Leslie
 

Hi Michael and Robyn,

For the main outhaul we use 12mm Vectran...since changing to this it has NEVER slipped.
Amel originally used 10mm, but with high tension this diameter reduces and it will eventually slip.
Jib cars the same Vectran...and we replaced our old alloy pulleys with stainless steel ones from Mark McGovern - no slip at all.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: Where is the BT SWITCH on SM436??

Germain Jean-Pierre
 

Thanks Drew,  

These new SM are more complex than my old girl!

Got it all in the end

Cheers

Jean-Pierre Germain


On 26/10/2021, at 3:48 PM, Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:

Thanks Drew,
I've spoken with JP - we're all sorted now...

The cct breaker on the 24V panel was off.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: Where is the BT SWITCH on SM436??

Alan Leslie
 

Thanks Drew,
I've spoken with JP - we're all sorted now...

The cct breaker on the 24V panel was off.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: Where is the BT SWITCH on SM436??

Drew Gaffney
 

Open the cabinet door for the BT in the V Berth
There is a lock pin at the top of the shaft. Remove pin, put it in its tubular holder sl to its port, and flip the toggle switch on to port.
At Helm, turn on Bow thruster.  Flip up/ down switch to down. When it's down, horn will sound.  Return the down switch to neutral.  To raise the thruster. Reverse the steps. 

Drew
SV Revelation
SM 390
Carloforte, Sardinia

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 21:00 Germain Jean-Pierre <jp.germain45@...> wrote:
As above.

Allan, the owner of SM436, asked me to have his hull cleaned by professional divers here in northern New Zealand. Happy to oblige but…

I’m on the boat at this moment and cannot find the switch for the BT unit. Can anyone help me there please?  My early SM is not a good template for Elyse

Many thanks as usual

Jean-Pierre Germain, SM007 Opua NZ






Where is the BT SWITCH on SM436??

Germain Jean-Pierre
 

As above.

Allan, the owner of SM436, asked me to have his hull cleaned by professional divers here in northern New Zealand. Happy to oblige but…

I’m on the boat at this moment and cannot find the switch for the BT unit. Can anyone help me there please? My early SM is not a good template for Elyse

Many thanks as usual

Jean-Pierre Germain, SM007 Opua NZ


Re: Main Boom outhaul line and Main Boom Traveler line.

 


Michael & Robyn,

This issue you are having with line slipping in the AndersonLine Handler sheave is simple to explain and rather easy to fix.

When your SM was new the line in both of these was the same. They were 10mm Kevlar core in a polyester sheath. I doubt there was a better line anywhere in the world. 

If you can find an identical line today it would also likely slip because line manufacturers have taken material out of the core. You may be surprised that a newly made similar construction can be pinched with your fingers to 7mm, while the Amel-supplied 10mm line cannot be compressed at all. Go look at the sheave in those Anderson Line Handlers and imagine 7mm versus 10mm and you will totally understand the issue. Go to any rope sales outlet and pinch the 10mm line, and you'll get it.

The solution is to use a high-quality no-stretch core like Kevlar, Spectra, or Dyneema with a polyester sheath in the 12mm size. Do not use Dyneema sheath as it is too slippery.


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:11 PM Michael & Robyn <SY_RIPPLE@...> wrote:
Hi Bruno,

They may work well on modern Mega Yachts with all Dynema (core and sleeve) ropes but these slip on our main outhaul and jib cart position controls.
By the way has anyone a recommendation what rope type to use?
--
Michael & Robyn

SY RIPPLE SM2K # 417


Re: Trust, but verify...

Bruno COTTE
 

I have seen fantastic job on an Amel 54 named now or never . 


Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 26 oct. 2021 à 00:49, Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...> a écrit :



Hi Pat,

Where are you headed?

Fair Winds

ERIC

Kimberlite Amel SM 376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 8:07 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

 

I recently had repairs done by a large and local yard , in my case they did more damage to my boat then they repaired. Towards the end as I tired of repairing their mistakes , even though I had paid them in full for the repairs ,I told them to stop work and that I would finish the repairs myself. I am at the point ,that I trust no one and would rather do the work myself ,if at all possible. 

I am taking my boat to Deltaville for a couple of issues on the way south ,I have heard good things about them and expect to have a good experience with them.

Pat

SM Shenanigans

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

Arno,

Unfortunately, these mechanics on this project were not at all amateurs, although their work was certainly substandard.  They were full time mechanics working for a major marine service firm. I don't want to point the finger at any specific organization, because that would dilute the message (and get me in trouble with the forum rules!)

This wasn't a case of something that was Amel specific being misunderstood.  Nor was it a case of hiring somebody who was a "shadetree mechanic."  The organization that did this install does MANY engine installs in a year in a major east coast yachting center.  I have no idea how many of them they get this badly wrong.  That's really not my point.  I really just want to push out the fact that these things happen, even with "well qualified" and referenced checked mechanics, and everybody need to be sure they have a way to protect themselves. Some of us have the technical background and skillset to mange the technical sides of these projects. Many others (most?) do not.  For those who are not comfortable evaluating the technical side of a complex boat upgrade project, there is a need to plan ahead to get a second opinion.

It is certainly fortunate to be in a position to be able to do everything yourself, but it is unrealistic to expect that to be an option for all owners.

In discussions I have had about this with people in the industry, the conclusion I have come to is that the really good, and smart, mechanics and other tradesmen, quickly learn to move "up market."  There is a LOT of opportunity for capable and competent people in the super yacht end of the business where the money and working conditions are a LOT better. Just as an example, one of the the best marine refrigeration and electrical businesses in Annapolis no longer works with private clients at all, only professional yacht managers are considered desirable clients.  I certainly understand WHY, but it is still a pain for us with boats that have annual maintenance budgets of less than 6 figures.  We are left with the second string...

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Re: Trust, but verify...

Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>
 

Hi Pat,

Where are you headed?

Fair Winds

ERIC

Kimberlite Amel SM 376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 8:07 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

 

I recently had repairs done by a large and local yard , in my case they did more damage to my boat then they repaired. Towards the end as I tired of repairing their mistakes , even though I had paid them in full for the repairs ,I told them to stop work and that I would finish the repairs myself. I am at the point ,that I trust no one and would rather do the work myself ,if at all possible. 

I am taking my boat to Deltaville for a couple of issues on the way south ,I have heard good things about them and expect to have a good experience with them.

Pat

SM Shenanigans

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

Arno,

Unfortunately, these mechanics on this project were not at all amateurs, although their work was certainly substandard.  They were full time mechanics working for a major marine service firm. I don't want to point the finger at any specific organization, because that would dilute the message (and get me in trouble with the forum rules!)

This wasn't a case of something that was Amel specific being misunderstood.  Nor was it a case of hiring somebody who was a "shadetree mechanic."  The organization that did this install does MANY engine installs in a year in a major east coast yachting center.  I have no idea how many of them they get this badly wrong.  That's really not my point.  I really just want to push out the fact that these things happen, even with "well qualified" and referenced checked mechanics, and everybody need to be sure they have a way to protect themselves. Some of us have the technical background and skillset to mange the technical sides of these projects. Many others (most?) do not.  For those who are not comfortable evaluating the technical side of a complex boat upgrade project, there is a need to plan ahead to get a second opinion.

It is certainly fortunate to be in a position to be able to do everything yourself, but it is unrealistic to expect that to be an option for all owners.

In discussions I have had about this with people in the industry, the conclusion I have come to is that the really good, and smart, mechanics and other tradesmen, quickly learn to move "up market."  There is a LOT of opportunity for capable and competent people in the super yacht end of the business where the money and working conditions are a LOT better. Just as an example, one of the the best marine refrigeration and electrical businesses in Annapolis no longer works with private clients at all, only professional yacht managers are considered desirable clients.  I certainly understand WHY, but it is still a pain for us with boats that have annual maintenance budgets of less than 6 figures.  We are left with the second string...

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Re: Trust, but verify...

Michael & Robyn
 

Hi Bruno,

They may work well on modern Mega Yachts with all Dynema (core and sleeve) ropes but these slip on our main outhaul and jib cart position controls.
By the way has anyone a recommendation what rope type to use?
--
Michael & Robyn

SY RIPPLE SM2K # 417


locked Re: A different view on boat grounding systems (at least for me)

Porter McRoberts
 

I would LOVE to read an AMEL redacted version of this. 


Porter McRoberts 
S/V IBIS A54-152
WhatsApp:+1 754 265 2206
Www.fouribis.net

On Oct 26, 2021, at 7:53 AM, David Wallace <svairops@...> wrote:

 “This guy” has a Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering from Stanford University and has invented significant navigation and video technology (not to mention his World-class status as an offshore racing navigator, which is of course irrelevant to this thread). His article doesn’t throw the Amel approach under the bus, er keel, but rather talks to two different environments. Stan is a very approachable person, I’m sure he would be happy to debate this issue.

Dave Wallace
former owner S/V Air Ops
Maramu #104

On Oct 25, 2021, at 10:37 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Arno,

I will say what you are too polite to say. This guy is WRONG on so many levels I lost count.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 12:00 PM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Dear Forum,

I just spend some time reading this. For those that are in marina's it may complicate the view on the Amel bonding system:

https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Marine-Grounding-Systems

Personally, I'm not sure what to think of it.

Cheers,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121




locked Re: A different view on boat grounding systems (at least for me)

David Wallace
 

“This guy” has a Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering from Stanford University and has invented significant navigation and video technology (not to mention his World-class status as an offshore racing navigator, which is of course irrelevant to this thread). His article doesn’t throw the Amel approach under the bus, er keel, but rather talks to two different environments. Stan is a very approachable person, I’m sure he would be happy to debate this issue.

Dave Wallace
former owner S/V Air Ops
Maramu #104

On Oct 25, 2021, at 10:37 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Arno,

I will say what you are too polite to say. This guy is WRONG on so many levels I lost count.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 12:00 PM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Dear Forum,

I just spend some time reading this. For those that are in marina's it may complicate the view on the Amel bonding system:

https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Marine-Grounding-Systems

Personally, I'm not sure what to think of it.

Cheers,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121




Re: Trust, but verify...

Bruno COTTE
 

In Antigua it is not cheap but you have excellent riggers … imagine they work often on mega sailboats with 30 meters +++ masts ( up to 50 +even )

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 25 oct. 2021 à 20:33, Michael & Robyn <SY_RIPPLE@...> a écrit :

Greetings!

maybe developing a couple of written specifications for standard repair / replace big items, which we all will face one day,  to be included in the work contract would help.

We used the excellent technical information from this group e.g. Bow Thruster Repair from Nikmat to talk the task at hand  through with David and Arthur in Jolly Harbour in Antigua. They are excellent experts and didn't really need the information but they were still appreciative for the refresher. The did the work with precision in the AMEL spirit.

But we had also less good experiences with replacing some of our running rigging there with a different company. I would still like the group to come up with a reasonable way to share less good experience to alert fellow cruisers and to supervise and document every step of a known substandard shop for future work to give them a chance to improve and demonstrate that it may have been a one time flaw.
--
Michael & Robyn

SY RIPPLE SM2K # 417


Re: Trust, but verify...

Michael & Robyn
 

Greetings!

maybe developing a couple of written specifications for standard repair / replace big items, which we all will face one day,  to be included in the work contract would help.

We used the excellent technical information from this group e.g. Bow Thruster Repair from Nikmat to talk the task at hand  through with David and Arthur in Jolly Harbour in Antigua. They are excellent experts and didn't really need the information but they were still appreciative for the refresher. The did the work with precision in the AMEL spirit.

But we had also less good experiences with replacing some of our running rigging there with a different company. I would still like the group to come up with a reasonable way to share less good experience to alert fellow cruisers and to supervise and document every step of a known substandard shop for future work to give them a chance to improve and demonstrate that it may have been a one time flaw.
--
Michael & Robyn

SY RIPPLE SM2K # 417


locked Re: A different view on boat grounding systems (at least for me)

Bruno COTTE
 

As an aerospace engineer and ex  commodore of french navy I think this article is a joke for students to identify all written mistakes … 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 25 oct. 2021 à 20:15, Bruno COTTE via groups.io <cotte.bruno@...> a écrit :

These statements are correct if you are only sailing on lakes with fresh water . 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 25 oct. 2021 à 19:57, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> a écrit :


This is 2 of the author's statements.

1.) "An isolated bronze thru-hull doesn't need protection because it is not in electrical contact with another immersed dissimilar metal."

2.) "If electrically isolated, high quality marine bronze is electrochemically stable in seawater; nothing good can come from connecting wires to it."

I do not know anyone on the planet who will agree with these. I assume that the author does not know that saltwater is conductive.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 12:53 PM Paul Harries via groups.io <Pharries=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I am sure most readers would love to hear a point by point criticism of this article.
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


locked Re: A different view on boat grounding systems (at least for me)

Arno Luijten
 

Hi Bill,

Yeah I was a bit puzzled by his statements about leaving isolated bronze thru hulls without zinc protection although it is common practice in many European boats. What happens then is that the copper leaches out and they become brittle. But that can take quite some years.
Separating the boat's 24 Volt ground from the "wet parts" does make sense though. But this is where the (in)famous small switch is for on an Amel...

OK another puzzle I'm working on that led me to the first posting.
Does the forum think is should be avoided to connect the shielding of a coax wire for the VHF/AiS/FM antenna to the mast. Or in other words, should the antenna-foot be mounted isolated from the mast.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna
A54-121


locked Re: A different view on boat grounding systems (at least for me)

Bruno COTTE
 

These statements are correct if you are only sailing on lakes with fresh water . 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 25 oct. 2021 à 19:57, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> a écrit :


This is 2 of the author's statements.

1.) "An isolated bronze thru-hull doesn't need protection because it is not in electrical contact with another immersed dissimilar metal."

2.) "If electrically isolated, high quality marine bronze is electrochemically stable in seawater; nothing good can come from connecting wires to it."

I do not know anyone on the planet who will agree with these. I assume that the author does not know that saltwater is conductive.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 12:53 PM Paul Harries via groups.io <Pharries=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I am sure most readers would love to hear a point by point criticism of this article.
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


locked Re: A different view on boat grounding systems (at least for me)

Paul Harries
 

I am sure most readers would love to hear a point by point criticism of this article.
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


locked Re: A different view on boat grounding systems (at least for me)

Bill Schwanitz
 

This response from Bill (Rouse) and the overall expertise of the folks on this forum make me smile (and make me smarter).

Bill (or anyone else) are there articles available on the Internet that, in your opinion, better address marine grounding systems.

Cheers,
Bill Schwanitz
Future Amel owner

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 11:38 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Arno,

I will say what you are too polite to say. This guy is WRONG on so many levels I lost count.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 12:00 PM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Dear Forum,

I just spend some time reading this. For those that are in marina's it may complicate the view on the Amel bonding system:

https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Marine-Grounding-Systems

Personally, I'm not sure what to think of it.

Cheers,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121

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