Date   

Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Darren Moore
 

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your reply and suggestion, for some reason we have a J180 mount on our current alternator so that should help with the load.

I did a rough model of the alternator and was worried about the fitting, perhaps your configuration is different to ours, I was concerned about the angle brace of the engine mount.

Are you upgrading to serpentine belts too? John is suggesting a double crank pulley to allow both alternators to be serpentine belted.

I'd love to see some pictures of your setup before and after if it's not too much trouble.

Kind regards
--
Darren & Karen
SM171
LaGecko
Tasmania, Australia


Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

Justin Maguire
 

This was the damage to mine when I replaced it…

image


On Apr 28, 2022, at 16:53, Justin Maguire <Justin_Maguire@...> wrote:

 The angle is much more open in a SM than on the 50

image.png


On Apr 28, 2022, at 15:44, Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:

The previous owner of Elyse bent a few of those horns, I still have them.
In the 9 years we have owned Elyse we have never had a halyard wrap issue.
We have a spinnaker/gennaker halyard which we use with our gennaker.
It is always stored like this

PIC_0819.JPG

with chafe protection on the upper shroud, it's tied tightly to the stbd rail aft of the mast.
It does get loose occasionally and needs to be tightened.
This is simple to keep an eye on.
Our Amel has a little notice next to the FOC (genoa) furling switch which says
"Attention aux drisses" meaning look out for the halyards, to avoid halyard wraps.
These are seamanship issues not design issues.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

Justin Maguire
 

The angle is much more open in a SM than on the 50

image


On Apr 28, 2022, at 15:44, Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:

The previous owner of Elyse bent a few of those horns, I still have them.
In the 9 years we have owned Elyse we have never had a halyard wrap issue.
We have a spinnaker/gennaker halyard which we use with our gennaker.
It is always stored like this

PIC_0819.JPG

with chafe protection on the upper shroud, it's tied tightly to the stbd rail aft of the mast.
It does get loose occasionally and needs to be tightened.
This is simple to keep an eye on.
Our Amel has a little notice next to the FOC (genoa) furling switch which says
"Attention aux drisses" meaning look out for the halyards, to avoid halyard wraps.
These are seamanship issues not design issues.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: Securing a B&G 213 MHU

Billy Newport
 

Same happened to me. I was on my 3rd rebuilt 213 which didn't work when I gave up, bought a WS320 and installed on the mast. I configured the H5000 to use it rather than the MHU and changed the TZ2 to use the 320 also. What I'm unable to do is to reconfigure the 711c auto pilot to use the 320 for AWA etc. The menu option for change data sources etc isn't on my 711c. Maybe, I'm doing something stupid but if anyone knows how to unlock the menu item which allows a different data source to be picked for the 711c, I'd be grateful.   THanks, Billy 55#56


Furuno 711c and new wind sensor

Billy Newport
 

My MHU 213 on the mast is broken and so far I can't get it repaired. I've installed a WS320 on the mast and configured the H5000 to use that instead of MHU for AWA. The H5000 is calculating TWA etc correctly. Reconfiguring my TZ2 was easy enough also. Where I'm struggling is changing the 711c auto pilot to use the WS320 rather than the MHU for wind data source. The manual talks of a change data source menu in the system setup menu but on my 711c, it's just not there. Is it locked down or something? Does anyone know how to tell the 711c to use the WS320?
Thanks Billy, 55#56


Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Matt & Michelle
 

Darren,

We are to receive the system components the third week of May.

I had the same conversations with John.  The depth of the unit is shorter than our 24v Valeo.  The diameter is 1/4 inch larger.  When I had the boat on the hard a week ago, I was able to verify fitment.  I should be good to go.

Quick note, I chose a dual foot unit, installed with a spacer to accommodate the current 2-in foot.  I did this for two reasons.  One, the torque on the 160A unit exceeds the design specs for the SAE single foot.  Two, if I have to change the motor during my ownership the alternator is transportable.  

I hope to be installing in next few weeks.

Matt
SY Talia SM209
Virginia Beach, VA
Cobb’s Marina (on the hard)



On Apr 28, 2022, at 4:04 PM, Darren Moore <Kazdaz@...> wrote:

Hello Matt and Michelle,
I read you post as we are looking at the same option
Were you able to install the 165/24v RR IG alternator on your TMD22.
I've been talking with John about this unit but I'm still wondering if it'll fit where the existing 24-volt alternator is or if the framework supporting the engine or have to be modified to allow it to fit
Also John was mentioning installing a serpentine belt system with a custom-made double crank pulley have you gone down that path as well.

--
Darren & Karen
SM171
LaGecko
Tasmania, Australia


Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

Alan Leslie
 

The previous owner of Elyse bent a few of those horns, I still have them.
In the 9 years we have owned Elyse we have never had a halyard wrap issue.
We have a spinnaker/gennaker halyard which we use with our gennaker.
It is always stored like this



with chafe protection on the upper shroud, it's tied tightly to the stbd rail aft of the mast.
It does get loose occasionally and needs to be tightened.
This is simple to keep an eye on.
Our Amel has a little notice next to the FOC (genoa) furling switch which says
"Attention aux drisses" meaning look out for the halyards, to avoid halyard wraps.
These are seamanship issues not design issues.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

David Vogel
 

Hi Dean,

Hope that you're back on board safe and sound.

Thanks for your detailed explanation. Very useful.

I include below my LiFePO4 Upgrade "scoping document", which basically is a consolidation of my various musings, recorded for my own later reference. Easier to revisit, than to start the thinking again from scratch. I also use this as a discussion point with the marine electricians with whom I am working for my present MultiPlus and Solar upgrades, to ensure that whatever I do now is forward compatible, to the maximum extent reasonably practicable.

I provide it here as it may (hopefully) inform the on-going discussion for the benefit of others travelling the same path.

The basic system architecture I envisage is taken from the VICTRON website, link included below. I chose this design as the baseline, as it does not use the LYNX distributors and related line of products, as these are physically quite large (I presume designed for shore use, where space is not at such a premium as on a boat), not to mention, expensive. I also like having each particular function *such as BMS, distribution bus-bars, isolation switches, etc* each in their own discrete unit - for ease of placement, trouble-shooting, replacement, and so on.

When I get this present round of upgrades done and dusted, then I'll revisit at the Lithium stuff again.

In the interim, thanks again.

David
SM#396, Perigee
Whangarei, NZ

ZCZC

LiFePO4 upgrade

Timefame: +3 years (after 2025)

Concept
A battery upgrade to LiFePO4 is seen NOT to an immediate requirement, as the existing 10x FireFly Carbon-Foam batteries were fitted 2020 and are only 2 years old, and are performing to spec. Expected lifespan is at least 5 years, probably 7, but not much beyond 10 years.
Therefore, expecting that battery replacement will be required prior to 2030, most likely within the 2025-27 timeframe. All current activities are being undertaken on that basis.

Philosophy
Assumptions: anticipating that costs of Li-technology storage will continue to drop, and other factors will predispose increasingly to Li as time progresses.
Accordingly, there is no impetus to change early; meaning, don’t replace just for the sake of it.
May consider a hybrid Pb-Li system if/as the FireFly batteries incrementally start to fail in the near-(1-3yr) to mid-(3-5yr) term. If any FireFlies fail before 2025, would consider a smaller (200Ah) Li system in combination with residual Pb (ref: Jon, from Annie). 
But in any event, keeping an eye to eventual battery replacement, and assessing preliminary scope in terms of estimates of cost and works required, and to make sure that any works done at this stage are on the transition path towards an eventual upgrade.

System Design
Pro-forma - e.g.: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/VE-Bus-BMS-example-with-3KW-12V-MultiPlus-230-Volt.pdf

Cost Forecasts
* 2x LiFePO4 Battery 25.6V/200Ah - Smart-a (BAT524120610, @ ~$6,250- = ~$12.5k)
* Li-Distribution Positive Busbar, & Fuses (~$400-)
* Main DC Distribution Positive Busbar, & Fuses (~$400-)
* Central Negative Busbar (~$400-)
* BMS: VE.Bus BMS (BMS300200000, ~$270-)
* Load side protection: Victron Smart Battery Protector 12/24V 220A (BPR122022000, ~$250-)
* Note: NonSMART: BatteryProtect 12/24V-220A BPR000220400 ~$200-, cannot be programmed by BT
* Charge side protection: Cyrix Li Charge 230 (CYR010230430, ~$390-; or a further Smart Battery Protect 220, $250-)
* To Be Determined: load-dumpy philosophy - e.g. ArgoFET into 24v Pb batteries; or hybrid Pb-LiFePO4 system; or …
* ArgoFET Battery Isolator (for protection of Alternator against load-dump) - Two batteries, 200A (ARG200201020 (R), ~$240-)
* Various Cables, Fuses etc; make provision $1,000-
* Labour: 15Hr @ $90-; make provision $1,500-
* TOTAL ~$17k

Other Works
* LiFePO4 upgrade will required reconfiguration of:
* MPPT controller for the Rutland 1200 Wind Generator
* Reconfiguration of the BALMAR external regulator for the engine-driven high-output (170A) 24v alternator

NNNN

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Dean Gillies <stella@...>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, 10 April 2022 at 5:40 pm
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

David,
When I started considering a new LFP installation a few years ago, it occurred to me that a hybrid system had significant advantages.  Only a few people were talking about it, and the most common scaremongering was "you can't mix different chemistries!", but no other explanation was forthcoming.  As is often the case, people hear this catchy-phrase and simply repeat it.  I spent a long time investigating hybrid options and ended up building a test system at home during the winter and I eventually gained confidence that what I wanted to build was both safe and operationally useful.  Since then many others have also gone down this path, and more and more examples of hybrid solutions are appearing online as you noted.

I think it's really important to have a good solid understanding of why you want to install a hybrid system, and to understand fully the ramifications from a systems engineering perspective.  Changing from a conventional LA battery system to a LFP system is challenging enough, moving to a hybrid solution is another level of design complexity.  It's definitely not for everyone!        

Some owners of existing LA battery systems might want to retain their investment in LA and look to add LFP to their LA system to provide more overall capacity. This is actually quite a challenging hybrid solution, and will often require switchgear to bring the different parts of the system on and off-line in order to maximise capacity. I didn't like that approach.

I approached the design not from the perspective of getting more capacity per se, rather I consider the main function of my LA component to be simply a back-up, which will be rarely used. 

Conventional LA systems are to a great extent "uninterruptible", whereas LFP systems are inherently interruptible and can disconnect for all sorts of reasons.  If a battery system on a boat is disconnected suddenly it can result in many problems ranging from failed alternators and electronic equipment to significant navigational safety risks.  Murphy tells us that it will always disconnect at the worst possible moment. 

I cruise on my boat six months of the year, and for the other six months the boat is in storage.  LFP systems can be difficult to manage for long periods in storage.  They should not be allowed to dwell at high states of charge for long periods. There is much debate about how to manage this, and many different approaches from the manufacturers of LFP batteries. Its soluble, but tricky if you have "drop-in" batteries (and by that I mean batteries with their own individual embedded BMS) since the BMS will slowly consume power and the battery therefor must be periodically charged.  In contrast, a LA battery is very amenable to continuous float charging at a high state of charge.    

Another "problem" with LFP batteries in an Amel 54 is that they are simply not heavy enough to counter-balance the mass of the generator as Henri intended.  No one wants that "Lithium List" to port.  Having a bit more lead on the STBD side surely helps. 
    
With my hybrid design I wanted to address those LFP problems, particularly the disconnecting risk.
I wanted to have full control of the entire battery and charge/discharge system so I chose not to use drop-in batteries and designed a system based on  LFP cells and AGM, using an external discrete contactor and a BMS which integrates closely with the Victron hardware.  My AGM batteries are almost always online and floating in a fully charged state, and my LFP cells operate between about 25% and 95% SOC.  In the event of any LFP disconnect event, my AGM batteries are already online, and the DC power bus is in effect uninterruptible.

When I store the boat, I set the SOC to 60-70% and disconnect the LFP cells, and the AGM batteries float for 6 months.
And the extra 64kg of AGM helps with the "Lithium List" problem.

As I planned the system, the clincher for me was that the cost of the new hybrid battery system was cheaper than the cost of simply replacing the original 13x AGM batteries. (Not including my time spent, which was significant!)

David, if you or anyone else is interested in discussing more technical details of my hybrid solution then feel free to email me. I'm going deep for the next 72 hours, but after that I'll be happily onboard Stella once more. 

Cheers
Dean
SV Stella
A54-154
(Currently in Almerimar, Spain)


Re: Securing a B&G 213 MHU

Jérémy
 

During the survey of my boat at the time of purchase, when Olivier tested the anemometer at the top of the mast, it fell on the deck.
Seeing the cost of the B&G 213, I preferred to find another solution, but which will remain compatible with the Hydra unit because I really like the look of the analog displays :)
I've found an ultrasonic sensor, compatible with the B&G system. It's the CV3F from LCJ, with B&G Option (named STBG for SeaTalk + B&G option).

The CV3F with the STBG option output both NMEA signal and the same B&G 213 analog signal (for the Hydra unit), and everything works perfectly.

https://lcjcapteurs.com/en/girouette-anemometres-capteur-vent/cv3f-ultrasonic-wind-sensor/


Jérémy
SM#121
Le 27/04/2022 à 07:40, Mark Erdos a écrit :

A few months ago, Loca Lola  wrote on here about a B&G replacement that had no bearings and was 0183 2000 comparable. IMO - B&G has a long way to go to catch up on this technology. When I run out of B&G's stupid expensive spare parts, this or something similar will be my choice.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 


--
SM #121 Nausicaä
Nantes, France


Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

 

James,

To explain:

When a halyard gets caught around the furling swivel, the swivel spins the halyard around the foil and usually eventually the rigging wire. If the end of the halyard is secured, these halyard wraps around the wire can get as tight as vice grips on the wire. With the swage fitting stationary, this twisting force will untwist the wire at the swage. Untwisted rigging wire loses all of its strength. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 13:42 Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
On our 54, we've used the gennaker, code 0 and Parasailor for thousands of miles. It attaches to the end of the bow roller and being non-factory, is probably more prone to issues. In our laziness, we've sometimes left it up, furled, and used the Genoa. I have never gotten even close to wrapping, so I don't buy the conclusion that a factory designed and installed option increases wrap rates. And if it does, Amel should retrofit it.

As Bill stated, he's seen halyard wraps twist the 10mm "horns" around the swivel. Bill - does that mean they are potentially protective and/or sacrificial?

We have two extra halyards permanently stored off the main, near the Genoa halyard and have not had any issues. But I am human and expect that it will happen at some point, probably in a 50 knot rainless squall that didn't show up on radar. Are there 40 A50s out there? It seems 5/40 = 12% of their sister ships having a potentially catastrophic failure is higher than should be accepted as "user error" and demands a fix.

It'll be interesting to see what Amel does to correct this. They already got a pie in the face since they highlighted this family on social media and of course, a Grand Large Rally participant here in French Polynesia, (this boat was allowed in the GL Rally despite not being a Grand Large boat), was well aware of the Amel that lost its mast island hopping in 15 knots. Another lost mast would be a "Polina Star III" level event, in my opinion. Not good for owners of any Amel, 50 or otherwise.




On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 12:51 PM, Justin Maguire wrote:
That said, the 50’s and 60’s are the first boats with a bowsprit that has a furling gennaker / code zero from the factory.. so all previous amel models aren’t apples to apples comparisons. 
 
I’ve spoken with amel directly in this… 
 
I’m one of at least five 50’s that I know of that damaged their forestay due to the light wind halyard either not being properly stored (ie. On the starboard side by the shrouds vs. on the bowsprit) or by leaving the halyard tension too slack (either stored on the bowsprit or with the sail up and furled)…
 
 


Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Darren Moore
 

Hello Matt and Michelle,
I read you post as we are looking at the same option
Were you able to install the 165/24v RR IG alternator on your TMD22.
I've been talking with John about this unit but I'm still wondering if it'll fit where the existing 24-volt alternator is or if the framework supporting the engine or have to be modified to allow it to fit
Also John was mentioning installing a serpentine belt system with a custom-made double crank pulley have you gone down that path as well.

--
Darren & Karen
SM171
LaGecko
Tasmania, Australia


Re: Bow truster problem

Slavko Despotovic
 

The only way to find out is to do all again. My truster did not work 5 seconds after change using Amel kit. I will have a chance to use Amel bow truster tool for the first time. 
Thank you all for your help.
--
Slavko
SM 2000
#279 Bonne Anse in Croatia


Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

Scott SV Tengah
 

On our 54, we've used the gennaker, code 0 and Parasailor for thousands of miles. It attaches to the end of the bow roller and being non-factory, is probably more prone to issues. In our laziness, we've sometimes left it up, furled, and used the Genoa. I have never gotten even close to wrapping, so I don't buy the conclusion that a factory designed and installed option increases wrap rates. And if it does, Amel should retrofit it.

As Bill stated, he's seen halyard wraps twist the 10mm "horns" around the swivel. Bill - does that mean they are potentially protective and/or sacrificial?

We have two extra halyards permanently stored off the main, near the Genoa halyard and have not had any issues. But I am human and expect that it will happen at some point, probably in a 50 knot rainless squall that didn't show up on radar. Are there 40 A50s out there? It seems 5/40 = 12% of their sister ships having a potentially catastrophic failure is higher than should be accepted as "user error" and demands a fix.

It'll be interesting to see what Amel does to correct this. They already got a pie in the face since they highlighted this family on social media and of course, a Grand Large Rally participant here in French Polynesia, (this boat was allowed in the GL Rally despite not being a Grand Large boat), was well aware of the Amel that lost its mast island hopping in 15 knots. Another lost mast would be a "Polina Star III" level event, in my opinion. Not good for owners of any Amel, 50 or otherwise.




On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 12:51 PM, Justin Maguire wrote:
That said, the 50’s and 60’s are the first boats with a bowsprit that has a furling gennaker / code zero from the factory.. so all previous amel models aren’t apples to apples comparisons. 
 
I’ve spoken with amel directly in this… 
 
I’m one of at least five 50’s that I know of that damaged their forestay due to the light wind halyard either not being properly stored (ie. On the starboard side by the shrouds vs. on the bowsprit) or by leaving the halyard tension too slack (either stored on the bowsprit or with the sail up and furled)…
 
 


Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

James Alton
 

Bill,

   Thanks for your post.   I am unclear on how a haylard wrap can apply torque to the forestay? I am pretty sure that all parts of the genoa furling system on my Amel at least are free to rotate on the forestay so wouldn't a haylard wrap result in a torque only in the furling extrusion rather than the forestay?    If I missing something let me know as I would like to understand.    I can see how a haylard wrapping on the small (thereby creating a large force multiplier) extrusion could generate significant tension on the genoa haylard and I believe that on more than one Amel the haylard parted under these conditions.  Has any other Amel lost it's spar due to a haylard wrap that you know of?  

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno
Maramu #220
Marmaris, Turkey  


-----Original Message-----
From: CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Apr 28, 2022 7:53 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel lost its mast - D1?



It is true that Amel did not modify either the Reckmann or ProFurl swivel to add horns, but in a few halyard wrap situations that I know of, the 10mm horns were bent around the swivel. I have seen this on the SM and 54. 

Damage to the forestay is real with a halyard wrap. It can untwist the forestay, drastically weakening the wire. All Amel installed electric furlers are capable of untwisting the forestay and this will happen with a halyard wrap.

I believe a big contributor to the increased frequency in all Amel models is due to the increase of external halyards at the top of the mast and not enough understanding by the owners. 

My advise:
Be aware of halyard wrap
Don't add too many halyards
When not in use, tightly secure the extra halyards to the rail and for extra security secure them where they are on the aft side of the spreader.




Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 11:34 Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
I’m going to agree with Bruno here.
 
This may not be a popular opinion, but Amel is not perfect. I can tell you on my 54, there are definite design faults, directly in contradiction with ISO and ABYC.
I love my boat overall but I will be the first to admit that Amel screws up and while it’s tempting to defend your purchase, when you’re in the middle of the ocean and it’s raging and something breaks, your ego means very little.
 
How many Amels are out there with powered furling headsails? At least 400 SMs and around 200 54s and I don’t know how many 55s and 64s. Has anyone heard of one of these boats losing their mast due to a halyard wrap? Judging from how many damn Amels (ha happy to see you all) are here in French Polynesia, there have been many many sea miles sailed by those 600+ Amels, so I would guess that at least one would have such an issue. Further, how many non-Amel powered furling headsail boats are there out there? Dismasting is a major event and we’d certainly hear about it.
 
It’d be interesting to see the report. Was it done by a disinterested third party?
 
Now for the sake of discussion, let’s assume it was related to a halyard wrap.  I believe I read once that the 50 and 60 don’t come with the halyard swivel “horns”? Further, assuming it was related to a halyard wrap and the design is similar to the previous models, I would hope we can discuss and learn from this event to prevent this from happening to others vs. just blaming user error and moving on.
 
 
From: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...>
Reply-To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:47 AM
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel lost its mast - D1?
 
Not logical 
You have fuse 
And such a problem doesn’t occur when you loose the forestay like this 
I don’t believe this conclusion 
Envoyé de mon iPhone


Le 28 avr. 2022 à 15:42, Matt Salatino via groups.io <helmsmatt=yahoo.com@groups.io> a écrit :
The final investigative report is in.
The mast failure occurred because of a halyard wrap with the Genoa furler.
This is a known issue on any boat with a powered furler.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: ACMO RIGGING

Bernd Spanner
 

Yes, they sent a wrong part to my rigger and replacement takes them over two weeks…. Not arrived yet.
I am not impressed!
--
Bernd
SN 119 / Cascais, Portugal


Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

 



It is true that Amel did not modify either the Reckmann or ProFurl swivel to add horns, but in a few halyard wrap situations that I know of, the 10mm horns were bent around the swivel. I have seen this on the SM and 54. 

Damage to the forestay is real with a halyard wrap. It can untwist the forestay, drastically weakening the wire. All Amel installed electric furlers are capable of untwisting the forestay and this will happen with a halyard wrap.

I believe a big contributor to the increased frequency in all Amel models is due to the increase of external halyards at the top of the mast and not enough understanding by the owners. 

My advise:
Be aware of halyard wrap
Don't add too many halyards
When not in use, tightly secure the extra halyards to the rail and for extra security secure them where they are on the aft side of the spreader.




Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 11:34 Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

I’m going to agree with Bruno here.

 

This may not be a popular opinion, but Amel is not perfect. I can tell you on my 54, there are definite design faults, directly in contradiction with ISO and ABYC.

I love my boat overall but I will be the first to admit that Amel screws up and while it’s tempting to defend your purchase, when you’re in the middle of the ocean and it’s raging and something breaks, your ego means very little.

 

How many Amels are out there with powered furling headsails? At least 400 SMs and around 200 54s and I don’t know how many 55s and 64s. Has anyone heard of one of these boats losing their mast due to a halyard wrap? Judging from how many damn Amels (ha happy to see you all) are here in French Polynesia, there have been many many sea miles sailed by those 600+ Amels, so I would guess that at least one would have such an issue. Further, how many non-Amel powered furling headsail boats are there out there? Dismasting is a major event and we’d certainly hear about it.

 

It’d be interesting to see the report. Was it done by a disinterested third party?

 

Now for the sake of discussion, let’s assume it was related to a halyard wrap.  I believe I read once that the 50 and 60 don’t come with the halyard swivel “horns”? Further, assuming it was related to a halyard wrap and the design is similar to the previous models, I would hope we can discuss and learn from this event to prevent this from happening to others vs. just blaming user error and moving on.

 

 

From: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...>
Reply-To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:47 AM
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel lost its mast - D1?

 

Not logical 

You have fuse 

And such a problem doesn’t occur when you loose the forestay like this 

I don’t believe this conclusion 

Envoyé de mon iPhone



Le 28 avr. 2022 à 15:42, Matt Salatino via groups.io <helmsmatt=yahoo.com@groups.io> a écrit :

The final investigative report is in.
The mast failure occurred because of a halyard wrap with the Genoa furler.
This is a known issue on any boat with a powered furler.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

Justin Maguire
 

Scott - I agree! We shouldn’t pretend that Amel is perfect. There are lots of little things that represent interesting or problematic choices.. just as there are on many boats. It’s Also why we se so many good tips about modifications and or upgrades from real world practical experience by owners. 


That said, the 50’s and 60’s are the first boats with a bowsprit that has a furling gennaker / code zero from the factory.. so all previous amel models aren’t apples to apples comparisons. 

I’ve spoken with amel directly in this… 

I’m one of at least five 50’s that I know of that damaged their forestay due to the light wind halyard either not being properly stored (ie. On the starboard side by the shrouds vs. on the bowsprit) or by leaving the halyard tension too slack (either stored on the bowsprit or with the sail up and furled)…

The angle of attack is such that making these mistakes can easily result in a halyard wrap that will damage the forestay. 

Personally I don’t see this as a design flaw per se, but rather operator misuse. In my case, due to covid I never got my handover week in La Rochelle and so the direction regarding how to use this was never received. I do wish this was covered specifically and
With warning in my manual which it isn’t so that’s definitely an area for improvement. 

If you store the halyard on the starboard side when not in use (as directed by Amel) you won’t have an issue. 

And when furling the light wind sail the halyard tension must be full on as directed by amel… this will also remove the issue. 

YMMV

-Justin 


On Apr 28, 2022, at 09:34, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:



I’m going to agree with Bruno here.

 

This may not be a popular opinion, but Amel is not perfect. I can tell you on my 54, there are definite design faults, directly in contradiction with ISO and ABYC.

I love my boat overall but I will be the first to admit that Amel screws up and while it’s tempting to defend your purchase, when you’re in the middle of the ocean and it’s raging and something breaks, your ego means very little.

 

How many Amels are out there with powered furling headsails? At least 400 SMs and around 200 54s and I don’t know how many 55s and 64s. Has anyone heard of one of these boats losing their mast due to a halyard wrap? Judging from how many damn Amels (ha happy to see you all) are here in French Polynesia, there have been many many sea miles sailed by those 600+ Amels, so I would guess that at least one would have such an issue. Further, how many non-Amel powered furling headsail boats are there out there? Dismasting is a major event and we’d certainly hear about it.

 

It’d be interesting to see the report. Was it done by a disinterested third party?

 

Now for the sake of discussion, let’s assume it was related to a halyard wrap.  I believe I read once that the 50 and 60 don’t come with the halyard swivel “horns”? Further, assuming it was related to a halyard wrap and the design is similar to the previous models, I would hope we can discuss and learn from this event to prevent this from happening to others vs. just blaming user error and moving on.

 

 

From: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...>
Reply-To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:47 AM
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel lost its mast - D1?

 

Not logical 

You have fuse 

And such a problem doesn’t occur when you loose the forestay like this 

I don’t believe this conclusion 

Envoyé de mon iPhone



Le 28 avr. 2022 à 15:42, Matt Salatino via groups.io <helmsmatt@...> a écrit :

The final investigative report is in.
The mast failure occurred because of a halyard wrap with the Genoa furler.
This is a known issue on any boat with a powered furler.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Bow truster problem

 

Willem,

Agree!

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 09:10 Willem Kroes <kavanga@...> wrote:
Hello Slavko,

I suffered from the same problem three years ago . After may be 10 times of use after replacing the gears with the Amel kit, the gears were already worn out, This because the mechanic in Spain used the old cover or end cap and not the new one that came with the kit. This new one dis not fit. This was  a problem in the first place caused by Amel. The mechanic who used the old one in stead had tho be more vigilant in checking the amount of play because the old cover did not go inside as much as the new one. That results in too much of play on the gears. If the new end cap does not fit and you want to use the old one, the only way to do this correctly is by using shims to restrict the amount of play within the correct parameters.

Willem Kroes

SY Kavanga
SM #351
now in Licata on Sicily


Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

Scott SV Tengah
 

I’m going to agree with Bruno here.

 

This may not be a popular opinion, but Amel is not perfect. I can tell you on my 54, there are definite design faults, directly in contradiction with ISO and ABYC.

I love my boat overall but I will be the first to admit that Amel screws up and while it’s tempting to defend your purchase, when you’re in the middle of the ocean and it’s raging and something breaks, your ego means very little.

 

How many Amels are out there with powered furling headsails? At least 400 SMs and around 200 54s and I don’t know how many 55s and 64s. Has anyone heard of one of these boats losing their mast due to a halyard wrap? Judging from how many damn Amels (ha happy to see you all) are here in French Polynesia, there have been many many sea miles sailed by those 600+ Amels, so I would guess that at least one would have such an issue. Further, how many non-Amel powered furling headsail boats are there out there? Dismasting is a major event and we’d certainly hear about it.

 

It’d be interesting to see the report. Was it done by a disinterested third party?

 

Now for the sake of discussion, let’s assume it was related to a halyard wrap.  I believe I read once that the 50 and 60 don’t come with the halyard swivel “horns”? Further, assuming it was related to a halyard wrap and the design is similar to the previous models, I would hope we can discuss and learn from this event to prevent this from happening to others vs. just blaming user error and moving on.

 

 

From: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...>
Reply-To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:47 AM
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel lost its mast - D1?

 

Not logical 

You have fuse 

And such a problem doesn’t occur when you loose the forestay like this 

I don’t believe this conclusion 

Envoyé de mon iPhone



Le 28 avr. 2022 à 15:42, Matt Salatino via groups.io <helmsmatt@...> a écrit :

The final investigative report is in.
The mast failure occurred because of a halyard wrap with the Genoa furler.
This is a known issue on any boat with a powered furler.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

Bruno COTTE
 

Not logical 
You have fuse 
And such a problem doesn’t occur when you loose the forestay like this 
I don’t believe this conclusion 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 avr. 2022 à 15:42, Matt Salatino via groups.io <helmsmatt@...> a écrit :

The final investigative report is in.
The mast failure occurred because of a halyard wrap with the Genoa furler.
This is a known issue on any boat with a powered furler.

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