Date   

ACMO

 

All interested,

As you know over the years I have been a very strong supporter of ACMO, the standing rigging supplier to Amel. This support created a relationship where ACMO issued discounts of 5 - 10% to the Amel owners that I referred to ACMO. There was and is no payment to me for referrals.

I am saddened to write the following: There are some changes happening now. For some unknown reason, after many years Amel stopped doing business with ACMO. I was told by someone at ACMO that it was the price, but this is not verified. Many of us developed a good relationship with Laetitia Boudon, but she has left ACMO. I have attempted to communicate with the owner of ACMO, but have not been successful at this time. I placed the following notice on my website's page for ACMO and unless something is resolved, the notice will be in the next printing of my book.

Notice: ACMO is no longer the supplier to Amel and my contact at ACMO, Laetitia Boudon, has left ACMO. I am trying to contact the owner of ACMO, Philippe Guzelli, but he has not responded. I have contacted Duquesnoy Audrey <audrey@...> and I am waiting on a reply. Until I am able to speak to Mr. Guzelli I must temporarily withdraw my recommendation.

I truly want to write you later, telling you that this has been resolved. Hopefully very soon. I believe that as soon as I can communicate with Philippe Guzelli it will be resolved. I understand from people who know ACMO and its owner that they are wonderful and honorable people.

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Dean Gillies
 

Hi Paul,
Bill's solution works nicely.

Another option is to install a small (10-20A)  Dc-Dc converter/charger between the 24V house bank and the 12V start battery and use this as a means to keep your start battery topped up. 

I suspect that many (most?) discharged 12V batteries happen due to failure of the 12V alternator. A DC DC converter gives you the ability to dodge that bullet. Victron have some good products for that. 

You can also carry a 'jump starter pack' for immediate emergency use (as long as you keep it charged). Small, cheap and effective. Example:

Dean
SV STELLA
A54-154

X

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Bill Kinney
 

I had someone contact me with that exact problem.  They have 24V LiFoPO batteries, and managed to drain their 12V starter battery to the point it wouldn't actually start the engine or the genset.  And they were in a remote place, and had guests arriving, and... you all know how it goes!

Jumping from the 12V converter for the SSB to the starter battery for a few hours managed to put enough power back into the starter battery it was able to crank the engines, and then get back into its normal cycle. Probably not a "recommended" practice, but in an emergency it worked.  Worth adding to the problem solving tool box.

A better long term solution would probably be to add a fixed battery-to-battery charger that can take the 24V from the main bank and keep the engine start battery topped up.  This might be especially important on boats with a lot of alternative energy inputs who can go long periods without firing the genset.  Also, a good idea to add instrumentation that allows more careful monitoring of the health of the starter battery. Regular load testing is definitely something to consider.  NOT a good idea to just ignore it until it doesn't work anymore. It might not work in a place where you really, really need it...

The loss of the quick, simple and easy jump start is a frequently missed cost of a complete Li conversion.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Simpson Bay Lagoon, Sint Maarten.


Re: Bill in St Maarten

Eric Freedman
 

HI Bill.

Miles Bidwell is on Lady Bug in Martinique.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io On Behalf Of Bill Kinney
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2022 10:30 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bill in St Maarten

 

Eric,

Right now we are anchored outside the bridge in Simpson Bay.  We have seen Kimberlite sitting pretty at her dock.  If things go to plan, we hope to be in Martinique by Tuesday.  Sorry to miss you!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Simpson Bay, Sint Maarten


Re: Bow paint worn out.

Dan Carlson
 

Thanks John,  

When I'm ready to redo the whole bottom, then Copper coat will definitely be a consideration, but right now I'm just looking for a more pragmatic approach to protect less than a meter of wear on the point of the bow until then. 

Thanks and regards, Daniel and Lori Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387




On Tue, May 10, 2022, 5:30 PM JOHN HAYES <johnhayes862@...> wrote:
Hi Dan

Think about moving to copper coat which is a water based epoxy. I put it on to the top of the orange stripe. Pulled out after 16 months mainly to check anodes. Instead of 3 to 4 days sanding and painting for anti fouling it took an hour and a quarter on the hard to water blast lite sand with 330 grit paper and back to the brine. Brilliant!!


On 11/05/2022, at 8:33 AM, Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:


We've covered a few more miles than usual since covid and we've been wearing away the bottom paint at the point of the bow each season. We have added three coats of micron 66 on the bow each summer when we've hauled out. 

This year it looks like we've worn the Gel-Coat off the very point of the bow as well. 

But we're hauling out later this month and thinking about what to do? 

I have some Interlux 2000e that I could layer on the point to give it some added layers of protection. I thought the process would be to strip the bottom paint back 3 - 4 inch's on each side of the bow, light sand it clean and then start building up layers of epoxy primer, feathering and sanding it out fair on each side. And then I'll build the bottom paint up again when we return in the fall.

Anyone with experience with this? Comments or other ideas? 

Thanks and regards, Daniel and Lori Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387, 
Currently at Spanish Wells and sailing north on Thursday


Re: Bow paint worn out.

JOHN HAYES
 

Hi Dan

Think about moving to copper coat which is a water based epoxy. I put it on to the top of the orange stripe. Pulled out after 16 months mainly to check anodes. Instead of 3 to 4 days sanding and painting for anti fouling it took an hour and a quarter on the hard to water blast lite sand with 330 grit paper and back to the brine. Brilliant!!


On 11/05/2022, at 8:33 AM, Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:


We've covered a few more miles than usual since covid and we've been wearing away the bottom paint at the point of the bow each season. We have added three coats of micron 66 on the bow each summer when we've hauled out. 

This year it looks like we've worn the Gel-Coat off the very point of the bow as well. 

But we're hauling out later this month and thinking about what to do? 

I have some Interlux 2000e that I could layer on the point to give it some added layers of protection. I thought the process would be to strip the bottom paint back 3 - 4 inch's on each side of the bow, light sand it clean and then start building up layers of epoxy primer, feathering and sanding it out fair on each side. And then I'll build the bottom paint up again when we return in the fall.

Anyone with experience with this? Comments or other ideas? 

Thanks and regards, Daniel and Lori Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387, 
Currently at Spanish Wells and sailing north on Thursday
P1030132.JPG1652214587039_1652214585442_P1030133.JPG


Bow paint worn out.

Dan Carlson
 

We've covered a few more miles than usual since covid and we've been wearing away the bottom paint at the point of the bow each season. We have added three coats of micron 66 on the bow each summer when we've hauled out. 

This year it looks like we've worn the Gel-Coat off the very point of the bow as well. 

But we're hauling out later this month and thinking about what to do? 

I have some Interlux 2000e that I could layer on the point to give it some added layers of protection. I thought the process would be to strip the bottom paint back 3 - 4 inch's on each side of the bow, light sand it clean and then start building up layers of epoxy primer, feathering and sanding it out fair on each side. And then I'll build the bottom paint up again when we return in the fall.

Anyone with experience with this? Comments or other ideas? 

Thanks and regards, Daniel and Lori Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387, 
Currently at Spanish Wells and sailing north on Thursday


Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

 

Paul,

It is not only the starter but every component connected to the ignition circuit on the main engine and the generator. A simple solution for backup would be a Car Charger with a Starting Cycle powered by an inverter.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 12:34 PM Paul Harries via groups.io <Pharries=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Due to potential for mismatched cells connected in series I have considered 24v Li batteries to be the best option.
If 24v batteries are chosen what do you do about starter motor battery  backup?
Are there 24v starter motors available?
Are there inverters that can handle the huge current draw?
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Paul Harries
 

Due to potential for mismatched cells connected in series I have considered 24v Li batteries to be the best option.
If 24v batteries are chosen what do you do about starter motor battery  backup?
Are there 24v starter motors available?
Are there inverters that can handle the huge current draw?
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


AMEL 54 cockpit and sun deck cushions for sale

Teun BAAS
 

I have for sale all AMEL 54 cockpit cushions as well as the aft deck sun lounge cushions.

All located at or near HOPE ISLAND MARINA, QLD AUSTRALIA.

Brgds Teun


Re: Dessalator tasting tap

Slavko Despotovic
 

Hi,

I had the same problem. Went to local hardware store and got this part. Cost 5 euro.
--
Slavko
SM 2000
#279 Bonne Anse in Croatia


Maramu sails for sale

Sarah & Trevor McIlwaine
 

Hi everyone,

Q Sails, made 2019 and very lightly used, I have videos I can share for the condition.  These were taken a week ago at our local sail loft.
 
1 x fully battened sail (no battens supplied), 3 reef points
Luff 12.7m, Foot 4.05m £1,000
 
1 x fully battened sail (no battens supplied), 2 reef points
Luff 9.0m
Foot 2.68m £800
 
These were bought as part of our boat, surplus to requirements.  Originally made for a ketch (so main & mizzen).  They have been stored in sail bags in a temperature/humidity controlled storage unit for the last 12 months.

We are in the UK and ideally would sell these before leaving here, though we will be sailing into Europe if a European Amel owner wanted these.

after  almost a year of renovating and refitting we’re excited to get back out on the water again.

kind regards,

Sarah & Trev, Elice, Maramu 162


Re: Securing a B&G 213 MHU

Jérémy
 

My mistake : it's not "LCJ CV3F" but "LCJ CV7-STBG".

Jérémy
SM#121
Le 28/04/2022 à 23:18, Jérémy via groups.io a écrit :

During the survey of my boat at the time of purchase, when Olivier tested the anemometer at the top of the mast, it fell on the deck.
Seeing the cost of the B&G 213, I preferred to find another solution, but which will remain compatible with the Hydra unit because I really like the look of the analog displays :)
I've found an ultrasonic sensor, compatible with the B&G system. It's the CV3F from LCJ, with B&G Option (named STBG for SeaTalk + B&G option).

The CV3F with the STBG option output both NMEA signal and the same B&G 213 analog signal (for the Hydra unit), and everything works perfectly.

https://lcjcapteurs.com/en/girouette-anemometres-capteur-vent/cv3f-ultrasonic-wind-sensor/


Jérémy
SM#121
Le 27/04/2022 à 07:40, Mark Erdos a écrit :

A few months ago, Loca Lola  wrote on here about a B&G replacement that had no bearings and was 0183 2000 comparable. IMO - B&G has a long way to go to catch up on this technology. When I run out of B&G's stupid expensive spare parts, this or something similar will be my choice.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 


--
SM #121 Nausicaä
Nantes, France

--
SM #121 Nausicaä
Nantes, France


Re: Dessalator tasting tap

Alan Leslie
 

Hi Eamonn,

There's nothing special about it, I replaced ours some years ago with one like this - standard plumbing part - pretty sure its a 3/8 BSP ball valve



Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: Super Maramu refrigeration insulation

Andrew Wilson
 

Hi Amelians,

Oliver on SV Vela Nautica made a couple of YouTube videos on his project to re-build his main freezer on his A54, he used custom made/sized panels:




Cheers

Andrew Wilson
Future Amel Owner
Wellington, NZ


From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>
Sent: Tuesday, 10 May 2022 2:39 pm
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Super Maramu refrigeration insulation
 
James,

You can not cut the panels in any way, that was what made the design challenging. If the outer skin is punctured and the vacuum compromised, the remaining insulation capability is roughly equal to the same thickness of foam. At one time there were people who made custom sized panels, but those were expensive, and I wasn't able to find anyone still in that business.

The new box itself was made out of 4mm plywood with butt joints reinforced by epoxy fillets.  It's a simple technique that makes a surprisingly strong and rigid structure. All the wood was sealed with multiple coats of epoxy to make it (hopefully!) impervious to air and water vapor.

The insulating panels themselves I wrapped in the kind of 1/4" foam sheet used under the wood sill that sits on a building's foundation. This protected the surface of the panels from any mechanical damage, gave a little bit of "squish" to the fit, and also helped eliminate gaps where air could flow.

There were a few places in the design I couldn't close up with the fixed size panels that were available. Those were insulated with 4" of high quality foam sheet, any remaining gaps were filled with spray foam. It was one of the foam insulated places where the tubing and wires penetrate the wall.  I epoxied in a PVC pipe as a conduit to keep the insulation compartment air tight, and then filled that with spray foam after connecting everything.

I did everything I could think of to keep outside air from migrating into the insulation to avoid water condensation in the insulation.

The whole thing was painted with polyurethane paint to match the Amel interior gelcoat.

If I was doing it over, I'd probably use thinner plywood for the interior lining.  Conduction along the wood seems to be the biggest heat gain.  I am sure that there is some thin, stiff, tough honeycomb engineered material out there that would be even better, but I did not find any thin enough I was sure would work. Maybe a deeper dive into material for the aviation market would find something.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Simpson Bay, Sint Maarten


Re: Super Maramu refrigeration insulation

Bill Kinney
 

James,

You can not cut the panels in any way, that was what made the design challenging. If the outer skin is punctured and the vacuum compromised, the remaining insulation capability is roughly equal to the same thickness of foam. At one time there were people who made custom sized panels, but those were expensive, and I wasn't able to find anyone still in that business.

The new box itself was made out of 4mm plywood with butt joints reinforced by epoxy fillets.  It's a simple technique that makes a surprisingly strong and rigid structure. All the wood was sealed with multiple coats of epoxy to make it (hopefully!) impervious to air and water vapor.

The insulating panels themselves I wrapped in the kind of 1/4" foam sheet used under the wood sill that sits on a building's foundation. This protected the surface of the panels from any mechanical damage, gave a little bit of "squish" to the fit, and also helped eliminate gaps where air could flow.

There were a few places in the design I couldn't close up with the fixed size panels that were available. Those were insulated with 4" of high quality foam sheet, any remaining gaps were filled with spray foam. It was one of the foam insulated places where the tubing and wires penetrate the wall.  I epoxied in a PVC pipe as a conduit to keep the insulation compartment air tight, and then filled that with spray foam after connecting everything.

I did everything I could think of to keep outside air from migrating into the insulation to avoid water condensation in the insulation.

The whole thing was painted with polyurethane paint to match the Amel interior gelcoat.

If I was doing it over, I'd probably use thinner plywood for the interior lining.  Conduction along the wood seems to be the biggest heat gain.  I am sure that there is some thin, stiff, tough honeycomb engineered material out there that would be even better, but I did not find any thin enough I was sure would work. Maybe a deeper dive into material for the aviation market would find something.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Simpson Bay, Sint Maarten


Re: Bill in St Maarten

Bill Kinney
 

Eric,

Right now we are anchored outside the bridge in Simpson Bay.  We have seen Kimberlite sitting pretty at her dock.  If things go to plan, we hope to be in Martinique by Tuesday.  Sorry to miss you!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Simpson Bay, Sint Maarten


Bill in St Maarten

Eric Freedman
 

Hi Bill,

I will be in SXM next Tuesday. Where are you located?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io On Behalf Of Michael Winand
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2022 9:21 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Super Maramu refrigeration insulation

 

Thanks Bill,

 I will have to see what is available in Australia.  Vacuum panels are much cheaper than the high tech blankets. I was concerned about how durable the vacuum panels are. I also have to buy a roll of the cryogel and would have half a roll left. 

 

It would be great to make the freezer efficient, I think it would use half the energy once properly insulated. 

Michael Nebo sm251 

 

 

On Sun, 8 May 2022, 11:57 pm Bill Kinney, <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

Michael,

The Amel original insulation is marginal at best, pretty much ANYTHING you do will be better. We rebuilt one of our settee freezers from scratch and used Panasonic vacuum panels.  The end result was the single greatest thing we have done to reduce our power consumption on Harmonie.  Down about 50% on that freezer, about 20% on our overall power draw, and no more warm corners inside the box. Just as important to the improvement was the proper double gasket seal on the lid.  The amount of ice we accumulate on the evaporator panel has decreased drastically.

The Panasonic U-Vacua panels are a bit complicated to work with, since they come in a limited selection of sizes, but were surprisingly low in cost.  I needed to design and build a complete new box to accommodate them.  Ended up not 100% vacuum insulated, but very close.  A big project, but we ended up with a significantly larger interior volume, and a better performing freezer.  

I had looked at aerogel, but ended up with the vacuum panels because they were lower cost per square foot of box at the same R-value, and I just had to put more time and brainpower in to the design of the box to accommodate them. Other people's decisions might be in a different place on that balance.

Don't count on disassembling the existing box, removing insulation and putting it back.  It was not made to come apart. Also, adding insulation, even really good insulation, to the outside of the existing box won't help all that much. At least in our case, after 25 years of nearly constant use, the existing poured foam was quite saturated with condensed water.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Simpson Bay, Sint Maarten


Re: modified stern rail on 54 to carry drum (Ankarolina on a Santorin)

David Vogel
 

Ahhh, the joys of Ua Pou

 

Despite several months based out of Taioha’e Bay (Nuku-Hiva) during cyclone season (as well as month on anchor there during lock-down) - Taioha’e Bay being notorious for larger reflected ocean swells and generally messy conditions at times - we have needed to use a stern anchor only once.  It was there in Ua Pou, anchored off Haakuti.

 

 

We were there for the festival and, upon arrival, had to reset 2 or 3 times, eventually using the RIB in lumpy conditions to get the exact position necessary for the stern anchor to hold – the water, although deep, can be astoundingly clear.  The stern anchor was buoyed with a trip-line - as much to encourage folks to not anchor over it in the tight anchorage, as for ease of retrieval.

 

When it came time to retrieve, using the RIB to trip, it was again in lumpy conditions.  The stern anchor refused to let go of the bottom, and the dinghy almost got swamped, being pulled under in the swell.  This was really quite physical.

 

With such a good hold aft, we then elected to take in the bow anchor, and hang off the stern anchor - walking the rode to the bow whilst pitching and rolling was not exactly benign line handling.  And then, it was a real challenge to get and keep the bow where it needed to be, the rise and fall of the short swell being >1.8m by this time.  This presents a scary amount of snatch force, which I think would inevitably do some damage to the deck-gear if made off with the anchor directly beneath the bow.  By this time we had concluded that the anchor was probably caught under a rock or ledge.  And we were at the point of either diving onto the anchor, or cutting the rode at the waterline and letting it go.  Diving was becoming less of an option, as by now (after about 1-1/2 hours in the by now midday sun) I was dehydrated and becoming quite fatigued - not a good place to start a work-dive in trying conditions.

 

Anyway, on the last attempt, with a presuming understanding of the orientation of the anchor, we waited for a break in the swell to make a run in the appropriate direction under low power, to try and muscle the anchor out sideways.  Success, however at the cost of the anchor, which came up with a bent shank.  The release happened without any tension, we almost didn’t know it was clear except that we were making way.  So maybe the shank got bent encountering side-loads whilst anchored (it was pretty rough in there at times), and perhaps that’s why it would not release cleanly.  We’ll never know.

 

But, the ultimate success was that no-one received any injuries, and there was no damage to the boat or her gear, despite quite high dynamic loads being handled at times.  A big sigh of relief all around.

 

I’m all ears as to all and any other options, or better ways to proceed - when faced with situations like these, it’s always nice to have even more options in the play-book, especially when “far from the Madding crowd”.  

 

Thank you, group, for your continued contributions.  What a wealth of experience and information being shared.

 

David

SM#396, Perigee

Whangarei, NZ

 

 

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Tuesday, 10 May 2022 at 5:07 am
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] modified stern rail on 54 to carry drum (Ankarolina on a Santorin)

 

We have used the port bow anchor twice as a stern anchor in the last few weeks here in the Marquesas. I don't love it.

In both instances, I took the dinghy up to the bow and the admiral drops the port Delta anchor (31kg?) and all the chain and rode into the dinghy, leaving the bitter end still connected to the chain locker. I then backup the dinghy to the desired drop location, letting the rode fall out as I backup. Once the 10mm stainless chain section goes over the dinghy tubes, it's a pain to control the drop speed. Then I manhandle that Delta anchor over the side of the dinghy! The rode is then cleated off to the port stern cleat and then run along the plastic channel just outboard of the stanchions on a 54 to the port windlass. Even more complicated is that the stainless rub rail acts like a bit of a knife on the stern rode, so I take another line and attach it to the stern rode via an icicle hitch and put chafe protection on it and use that as a snubber.

What is much more of a pain is retrieving the port (stern) anchor. Unless you happen to get wind that pulls you towards the stern anchor perfectly, you are at risk of wrapping the rode around the keel as you release starboard anchor chain and start backing up. Because I feared getting the rode into the prop, I literally pulled the boat backwards using the stern rode with a half turn on the port stern cleat.

That damn 3 strand rode does not like to fall smoothly down the hawsepipe upon retrieval so the admiral needs to be in the bow locker operating the windlass AND pulling the 3strand down from below. Eventually the rode/chain fell out of the plastic channel and went underwater and wrapped around the keel as the boat went sideways in the current/ wind on the beam. Thankfully I was not using the motor/prop. This happened to us in Ua Pou. 

Here in the Marquesas, sourcing a proper stern anchor setup is not easy and frankly, I don't expect to use it that much in the future, so we'll work with what we have. 

An alternative way to retrieve port/stern anchor is to use the trip line/float and attach it to the dinghy painter and trip then pull the anchor towards the big boat bow to eliminate the risk of wrapping the keel.

What I may try the next time we deploy the stern anchor using the port bow anchor is to either float the anchor using a fender as Nick described or just attach it to the painter and backup, again using a snap shackle or slip and backup in the dinghy to our desired drop position. I think I'll disconnect the port rode from the bow locker so that if we need to leave in a hurry, we can just uncleat it vs. cutting the rode. 

For retrieval, another potential way is to just completely disconnect the rode from the boat, coil it and temporarily attach it to the anchor float we generally use to mark the stern anchor position. Then we'll move big boat over, reconnect the rode and haul it up.

Everything mentioned gets more complicated if its breezy, of course.

In summary, if you anticipate stern anchoring a lot (we've done it twice in 4 years and 27 thousand miles), get a better setup. But based on others' comments, we are in one of the few places we'll seriously need a stern anchor, so we'll find a way to make do with the twin bow anchors.

Will report later on whether my ideas worked.




--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: modified stern rail on 54 to carry drum (Ankarolina on a Santorin)

Craig Briggs
 

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 12:07 PM, Scott SV Tengah wrote:
That damn 3 strand rode does not like to fall smoothly down the hawsepipe upon retrieval
12 Strand plaited braid is the answer - it just falls limply in place and comes out like a charm.
 
--
Craig Briggs - s/v Sangaris / SN68  Tropic Isle Harbor, FL

3201 - 3220 of 66422