Date   

Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

Dean Gillies
 

Jose,
Bill Kinney is absolutely right, it is important to understand why these batteries failed so quickly.

Is it possible that the batteries spent long periods at low charge state before you installed solar.  Lead batteries in general degrade quite quickly if they are operated at low SOC for extended periods?

is it possible that your solar installers inadvertently discharged the bank completely while the installation was happening? 

Cheers, Dean

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

Bruno COTTE
 

Batteries are very special equipment 
My Victron bank had once to be changed after only 3 years . Gel batteries . That really depends how they are used in which environment . If it is too hot the duration life is very reduced . 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 29 mai 2022 à 04:19, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> a écrit :

Normal practice is to consider a battery as due for replacement when its capacity drops to less than 80% of the original nameplate.  It looks like the MasterVolt testing has flagged each of the batteries that tests as less than 80% as needing to be replaced.  I agree with the advice that the bank needs to be replaced as a whole.  

The problem is that we really do not know why they failed so early.  Something is not right in the system.  What ever batteries are put in here are very likely to meet the same fate. It might be a good idea to replace these with the cheapest flooded lead acid batteries you can find which will keep you going until you can sort out WHY these batteries died so soon.

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
Le Marin, Martinique


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

Bill Kinney
 

Normal practice is to consider a battery as due for replacement when its capacity drops to less than 80% of the original nameplate.  It looks like the MasterVolt testing has flagged each of the batteries that tests as less than 80% as needing to be replaced.  I agree with the advice that the bank needs to be replaced as a whole.  

The problem is that we really do not know why they failed so early.  Something is not right in the system.  What ever batteries are put in here are very likely to meet the same fate. It might be a good idea to replace these with the cheapest flooded lead acid batteries you can find which will keep you going until you can sort out WHY these batteries died so soon.

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
Le Marin, Martinique


Re: laixoi@me.com

David Dickman
 

Hi all, 
Recently had similar experience. Volvo penta tech in Martinique (Ludovic at Ids) tells me it is because Oman has glow plugs that draw a lot of current. D3 engine being common rail does not need as much. This, engine will start with less battery charge than Onan.

Best david
Galini
A54 100

On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 8:59 PM Craig Briggs <sangaris68@...> wrote:
Hi Bill,
Very interesting that the Onan requires much more power to start than the main engine. The Onan diesel engine is, what?, maybe 15-18hp, versus the propulsion engine of, what? 80-ish hp (or more). Seems a bit counterintuitive but maybe there's a reason like the Onan needing a lot of power for preheating the glow plugs (I never need preheat on my propulsion engine but always need 10 seconds-ish on the generator). I'm quite curious about the reason - can you elaborate, please?
--
Craig Briggs - s/v Sangaris / SN68  Tropic Isle Harbor, FL


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

michael winand
 

Looking like a cca  cranking test. Not a capacity test over 20 hrs at 5 amp discharge. 
Michael  Nebo sm251 


On Sun, 29 May 2022 at 2:40 am, CW Bill Rouse
<brouse@...> wrote:
Even the test shows that 3 of the batteries should be replaced (à remplacer). I believe you need to replace all of them.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 9:45 AM Jose Alegria <Josealegr@...> wrote:
Bill

hi-res images bellow:

IMG_9562 2.jpegIMG_9563 2.jpegIMG_9567 2.jpegIMG_9566 2.jpegIMG_9568 2.jpegIMG_9564 2.jpegIMG_9565 2.jpegIMG_9561 2.jpeg

Thank you

José Alegria
A55#003MERIT
josealegr@...
Mobile: + 351 91 866 30 37




On Sat, 28 May 2022 at 16:16, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
I am sure that you have one or more bad batteries. I could not read the battery test results on the pieces of paper.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 7:30 AM Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> wrote:
Sorry to say it can be a bad battery 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 13:18, Jose Alegria <Josealegr@...> a écrit :

Bruno

22 months !…


Jose Alegria
Amel55 #03-MERIT
+351918663037



No dia 28/05/2022, às 10:55, Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> escreveu:

How old are your batteries ? 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 10:51, Slavko Despotovic <slavko@...> a écrit :

Hi Jose,

12,9V after 20hours of charging does not warranty that battery capacity is 110Ah if the batteries are rated to be 110Ah. Your measurement after you disconnected charger are showing that battery capacity much lower than rated 110Ah. This is why you have 22V in the morning.
Maybe you should record charging current as you are charging now. Maybe one measurement every 15 minutes. The voltage and charging current. And when you disconnect charger measure the same. Keep your loads at minimum. Fridge, freezer..
Talk to Mastervolt technician,  he need to know that something went wrong with your batteries to prevent this happening again. 

--
Slavko
SM 2000
#279 Bonne Anse in Croatia


Re: change of ball bearings of traveller cars on our 54

 

And, 6.4mm = 0.25 inch

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 9:37 AM Dominique Sery via groups.io <dominiquesery=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
The Lewmar torlon balls are 6.4 mm. Price in France 100 balls, 76,5€. Mines are 6.5 (they are old, bought 30 years not Lewmar brand).
Best
Dominique
Irko
A54


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

 

Even the test shows that 3 of the batteries should be replaced (à remplacer). I believe you need to replace all of them.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 9:45 AM Jose Alegria <Josealegr@...> wrote:
Bill

hi-res images bellow:

IMG_9562 2.jpegIMG_9563 2.jpegIMG_9567 2.jpegIMG_9566 2.jpegIMG_9568 2.jpegIMG_9564 2.jpegIMG_9565 2.jpegIMG_9561 2.jpeg

Thank you

José Alegria
A55#003MERIT
josealegr@...
Mobile: + 351 91 866 30 37




On Sat, 28 May 2022 at 16:16, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
I am sure that you have one or more bad batteries. I could not read the battery test results on the pieces of paper.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 7:30 AM Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> wrote:
Sorry to say it can be a bad battery 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 13:18, Jose Alegria <Josealegr@...> a écrit :

Bruno

22 months !…


Jose Alegria
Amel55 #03-MERIT
+351918663037



No dia 28/05/2022, às 10:55, Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> escreveu:

How old are your batteries ? 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 10:51, Slavko Despotovic <slavko@...> a écrit :

Hi Jose,

12,9V after 20hours of charging does not warranty that battery capacity is 110Ah if the batteries are rated to be 110Ah. Your measurement after you disconnected charger are showing that battery capacity much lower than rated 110Ah. This is why you have 22V in the morning.
Maybe you should record charging current as you are charging now. Maybe one measurement every 15 minutes. The voltage and charging current. And when you disconnect charger measure the same. Keep your loads at minimum. Fridge, freezer..
Talk to Mastervolt technician,  he need to know that something went wrong with your batteries to prevent this happening again. 

--
Slavko
SM 2000
#279 Bonne Anse in Croatia


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

Paul Harries
 

Have you considered disconnecting one battery pair at a time for 24 hours and rerun tests as above each day. That way you might identify an aberrant pair


On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 10:45, Bruno COTTE
<cotte.bruno@...> wrote:
Agreed with Bill impression 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 16:35, Dean Gillies <stella@...> a écrit :



Hi Jose,
Based on your observations overnight I don't trust those mastervolt test results. Those tests are estimates from "instantaneous" measurements and not good ones by all account. The only way to prove the state of each battery is to perform a longer term, say overnight, discharge test on each battery independently.
I believe this will show much lower actual capacity than 70-80%. I would expect to see more like 20% or less from a full discharge test. The MV tech will no doubt want to charge you for this more complete test. Depending on that cost then you could roll the dice. 
The issue for you is "what next". Will MV come to the party with new batteries if you have 20% capacity across the board but don't have a shorted cell?  Ask the technician.

good luck
Dean

 

 


--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

Bruno COTTE
 

Agreed with Bill impression 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 16:35, Dean Gillies <stella@...> a écrit :



Hi Jose,
Based on your observations overnight I don't trust those mastervolt test results. Those tests are estimates from "instantaneous" measurements and not good ones by all account. The only way to prove the state of each battery is to perform a longer term, say overnight, discharge test on each battery independently.
I believe this will show much lower actual capacity than 70-80%. I would expect to see more like 20% or less from a full discharge test. The MV tech will no doubt want to charge you for this more complete test. Depending on that cost then you could roll the dice. 
The issue for you is "what next". Will MV come to the party with new batteries if you have 20% capacity across the board but don't have a shorted cell?  Ask the technician.

good luck
Dean

 

 


--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

Jose Alegria
 

Bill

hi-res images bellow:

IMG_9562 2.jpegIMG_9563 2.jpegIMG_9567 2.jpegIMG_9566 2.jpegIMG_9568 2.jpegIMG_9564 2.jpegIMG_9565 2.jpegIMG_9561 2.jpeg

Thank you

José Alegria
A55#003MERIT
josealegr@...
Mobile: + 351 91 866 30 37




On Sat, 28 May 2022 at 16:16, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
I am sure that you have one or more bad batteries. I could not read the battery test results on the pieces of paper.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 7:30 AM Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> wrote:
Sorry to say it can be a bad battery 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 13:18, Jose Alegria <Josealegr@...> a écrit :

Bruno

22 months !…


Jose Alegria
Amel55 #03-MERIT
+351918663037



No dia 28/05/2022, às 10:55, Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> escreveu:

How old are your batteries ? 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 10:51, Slavko Despotovic <slavko@...> a écrit :

Hi Jose,

12,9V after 20hours of charging does not warranty that battery capacity is 110Ah if the batteries are rated to be 110Ah. Your measurement after you disconnected charger are showing that battery capacity much lower than rated 110Ah. This is why you have 22V in the morning.
Maybe you should record charging current as you are charging now. Maybe one measurement every 15 minutes. The voltage and charging current. And when you disconnect charger measure the same. Keep your loads at minimum. Fridge, freezer..
Talk to Mastervolt technician,  he need to know that something went wrong with your batteries to prevent this happening again. 

--
Slavko
SM 2000
#279 Bonne Anse in Croatia


Re: change of ball bearings of traveller cars on our 54

Dominique Sery
 

The Lewmar torlon balls are 6.4 mm. Price in France 100 balls, 76,5€. Mines are 6.5 (they are old, bought 30 years not Lewmar brand).
Best
Dominique
Irko
A54


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

Dean Gillies
 

Hi Jose,
Based on your observations overnight I don't trust those mastervolt test results. Those tests are estimates from "instantaneous" measurements and not good ones by all account. The only way to prove the state of each battery is to perform a longer term, say overnight, discharge test on each battery independently.
I believe this will show much lower actual capacity than 70-80%. I would expect to see more like 20% or less from a full discharge test. The MV tech will no doubt want to charge you for this more complete test. Depending on that cost then you could roll the dice. 
The issue for you is "what next". Will MV come to the party with new batteries if you have 20% capacity across the board but don't have a shorted cell?  Ask the technician.

good luck
Dean

 

 


--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Re: change of ball bearings of traveller cars on our 54

 

And here is another source: Harken - https://www.harken.com/en/shop/ball-bearings/
image.png


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 7:39 AM Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
In the world of ball bearings, those are actually 0.25 inch balls, I doubt you will find 6.5mm balls--even in Europe!

Very common, and not "special." They are pretty much the standard bearing balls for traveler cars and blocks across all manufacturers. The torlon balls (brown) are used in the lower race because they do not deform under high static loads like the delrin (white) will.  Many chandleries carry them in areas with a lot of sailboats.  You can get both out of the UK here: 
https://www.ballandrollerstore.com/plastic-ball-bearings/

Buy a lot, they are cheap in larger quantity.

The only reason that delrin balls are used on the upper race is because they are "good enough" for that location and are about one third the cost.  Feel free to use the torlon balls everywhere if that simplifies your life.

And one more thing on these, do NOT lubricate them, not even with the dry silicone.  If you do, the balls can slide instead of roll and then they wear a lot faster.  (or so I was told by a Harken technical service guy) Rinse salt and dirt out often and they should be fine.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Le Marin, Martinique


Re: Generator not starting

Gili Yehzkel
 

Hi.

On my AMEL 55 #68  I have this MasterVolt 24V-12V converter only to to keep the Engine / Generator battery always fully charged.
I hope this helps.

Gili 
Lady Gaya 
AMEL 55 #68

image1.jpeg

On May 28, 2022, at 10:48, Nick Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...> wrote:


Hi Nicholas,
I have a 3.2W solar panel that I wire directly to the starting battery with a wire that comes out of the battery locker vent. I lay this mini solar panel on the deck by the vent exit when I leave the boat for any extended period. This keeps my start battery full. When I return to the boat, I unplug it and put it in a locker below. 
image0.jpegimage1.jpeg
works for me..
Nick
S/Y Amelia
Wall Bay Fethiye
AML54-019

On 28 May 2022, at 02:53, Nicolas Klene via groups.io <laixoi@...> wrote:



Bill 
always there when needed ! 
Thank you ever so much for the quick response
I will install such a charger ! all the best 
Nick

Nicolas Klene
DarNico
SM2K # 471
In Marseille


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

 

I am sure that you have one or more bad batteries. I could not read the battery test results on the pieces of paper.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 7:30 AM Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> wrote:
Sorry to say it can be a bad battery 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 13:18, Jose Alegria <Josealegr@...> a écrit :

Bruno

22 months !…


Jose Alegria
Amel55 #03-MERIT
+351918663037



No dia 28/05/2022, às 10:55, Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> escreveu:

How old are your batteries ? 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 10:51, Slavko Despotovic <slavko@...> a écrit :

Hi Jose,

12,9V after 20hours of charging does not warranty that battery capacity is 110Ah if the batteries are rated to be 110Ah. Your measurement after you disconnected charger are showing that battery capacity much lower than rated 110Ah. This is why you have 22V in the morning.
Maybe you should record charging current as you are charging now. Maybe one measurement every 15 minutes. The voltage and charging current. And when you disconnect charger measure the same. Keep your loads at minimum. Fridge, freezer..
Talk to Mastervolt technician,  he need to know that something went wrong with your batteries to prevent this happening again. 

--
Slavko
SM 2000
#279 Bonne Anse in Croatia


Re: Yesterdays grounding

Rick Stanley
 

Hey Nick sorry to hear about this, but glad you're sharing with the group. As we round the bend on our refit (we're about 2 years into a 4 year project) -- and also, being way up in the Chesapeake, I"m fully confident I"ll be experiencing all of this -- running aground, dragging anchor, severe squalls, the ineptitude of others, dangerous sea states, reefs, large meteors, and possibly alien invasions.

I expect all of that, generally. I hope my reflexes are sharp enough to avoid the catastrophic. It's always a good reminder that the smallest of miscalculations can lead to severe outcomes.

Best wishes,

Rick Stanley
S/V Althea SM2k
Rock Hall, MD


Re: change of ball bearings of traveller cars on our 54

Bill Kinney
 

In the world of ball bearings, those are actually 0.25 inch balls, I doubt you will find 6.5mm balls--even in Europe!

Very common, and not "special." They are pretty much the standard bearing balls for traveler cars and blocks across all manufacturers. The torlon balls (brown) are used in the lower race because they do not deform under high static loads like the delrin (white) will.  Many chandleries carry them in areas with a lot of sailboats.  You can get both out of the UK here: 
https://www.ballandrollerstore.com/plastic-ball-bearings/

Buy a lot, they are cheap in larger quantity.

The only reason that delrin balls are used on the upper race is because they are "good enough" for that location and are about one third the cost.  Feel free to use the torlon balls everywhere if that simplifies your life.

And one more thing on these, do NOT lubricate them, not even with the dry silicone.  If you do, the balls can slide instead of roll and then they wear a lot faster.  (or so I was told by a Harken technical service guy) Rinse salt and dirt out often and they should be fine.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Le Marin, Martinique


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

Bruno COTTE
 

Sorry to say it can be a bad battery 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 13:18, Jose Alegria <Josealegr@...> a écrit :

Bruno

22 months !…


Jose Alegria
Amel55 #03-MERIT
+351918663037
Josealegr@...



No dia 28/05/2022, às 10:55, Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> escreveu:

How old are your batteries ? 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 10:51, Slavko Despotovic <slavko@...> a écrit :

Hi Jose,

12,9V after 20hours of charging does not warranty that battery capacity is 110Ah if the batteries are rated to be 110Ah. Your measurement after you disconnected charger are showing that battery capacity much lower than rated 110Ah. This is why you have 22V in the morning.
Maybe you should record charging current as you are charging now. Maybe one measurement every 15 minutes. The voltage and charging current. And when you disconnect charger measure the same. Keep your loads at minimum. Fridge, freezer..
Talk to Mastervolt technician,  he need to know that something went wrong with your batteries to prevent this happening again. 

--
Slavko
SM 2000
#279 Bonne Anse in Croatia


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

Jose Alegria
 

Bruno

22 months !…


Jose Alegria
Amel55 #03-MERIT
+351918663037
Josealegr@...



No dia 28/05/2022, às 10:55, Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> escreveu:

How old are your batteries ? 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 10:51, Slavko Despotovic <slavko@...> a écrit :

Hi Jose,

12,9V after 20hours of charging does not warranty that battery capacity is 110Ah if the batteries are rated to be 110Ah. Your measurement after you disconnected charger are showing that battery capacity much lower than rated 110Ah. This is why you have 22V in the morning.
Maybe you should record charging current as you are charging now. Maybe one measurement every 15 minutes. The voltage and charging current. And when you disconnect charger measure the same. Keep your loads at minimum. Fridge, freezer..
Talk to Mastervolt technician,  he need to know that something went wrong with your batteries to prevent this happening again. 

--
Slavko
SM 2000
#279 Bonne Anse in Croatia


Re: AGM batteries - voltage falling

Bruno COTTE
 

How old are your batteries ? 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 28 mai 2022 à 10:51, Slavko Despotovic <slavko@...> a écrit :

Hi Jose,

12,9V after 20hours of charging does not warranty that battery capacity is 110Ah if the batteries are rated to be 110Ah. Your measurement after you disconnected charger are showing that battery capacity much lower than rated 110Ah. This is why you have 22V in the morning.
Maybe you should record charging current as you are charging now. Maybe one measurement every 15 minutes. The voltage and charging current. And when you disconnect charger measure the same. Keep your loads at minimum. Fridge, freezer..
Talk to Mastervolt technician,  he need to know that something went wrong with your batteries to prevent this happening again. 

--
Slavko
SM 2000
#279 Bonne Anse in Croatia

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