Le 13 déc. 2021 à 19:31, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> a écrit :



Victor,

As most Amel owners know, painting aluminum is at best still a risky issue. Many A55 owners know this better than previous Amels. I am not sure why there seem to be more aluminum coating failures lately, but I suspect it has to do with certain prep chemicals being outlawed. 

We had an AB aluminum dinghy for 11 years. When it was 10 years old there was less painted area than bare aluminum. I thought Highfield and sister company 3D offered dinghies that were electrostatic-spray powder-coated. I would assume that this painting method would be better but it might make the process even more difficult and thus risky to the coating losing adhesion to the surface.

Whatever the issue is with yours, why don't you give the details, but focus on the aluminum coating issues rather than the manufacturer because I believe that probably any manufacturer and possibly any Amel owner will experience this issue. 

You experienced coating failure with Highfield and I did with AB Navico. Today AB ships the aluminum dinghy uncoated. You can special order power coating. Their website states, "Although the tender is uncoated for minimal maintenance, you can choose to add a Chrome-free Pretreatment and Powder Coating."  Another brand that I like is Caribe. They had the same coating flaking problem that you and I experienced. They solved it by no longer offering aluminum hulls.

I believe that there is a risk of coating failure with any aluminum dinghy. I think you are lucky if you do not experience it.

	CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School +1 832-380-4970 | brouse@... Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550  Website: www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com

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On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 11:13 AM VICTOR MOLERO <victor.moleroxx@...> wrote:

Hello Richie.

I bought a Highfield 290 dinghy last July. In September I already had bubbles in the paint of the hull. If you (or anyone) are interested in the response of Highfield when I sent the pictures and asked for a solution (that has not arrived yet), please let me know and I will describe it to you in a private conversation, since I know that this group does not allow for negative observations about brands or providers. 

Victor 

SM314 Alendoy

On 13 Dec 2021, at 18:07, Jérémy <jeremy@...> wrote:

If you're interesting in this subject, you should check this very interesting video about mixing Lead / Lithium batteries : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAOhT2HwKWM

Yet, I think it adds complexity, and I'm worry how it would perform in a long time range.

Jérémy
SM#121

Le 13/12/2021 à 17:25, Nick Newington via groups.io a écrit :

I am going to throw this one out there to the community. it is just an idea...

Has anyone tried a hybrid AGM and Lithium battery bank?

I am thinking it to be 75% AGM and 25% Lithium. All connected together as one bank….I know…..just hear me out…..it is unorthodox and only an idea….up for debate...

Both battery types can be charged at  14v….then when the charge source is turned off

AGM's will drop to about 13.2v, immediately. This is the float voltage for AGM’s.

Lithium will also drop to 13.2v but maintain that voltage until say 20% capacity remains. This is part of the Lithium chemistry.

In a typical cycle, the AGM’s will be kept at float by the Lithium. So only the Lithium part will be used, but there will still be the AGM that can start to share the load after the Lithium bank has been 80% depleted. So in effect one is cycling only the Lithium part…given that Lithium can be cycled many more times than AGM’s this should be cost effective.

In Practice… imagine 8 AGM batteries of 12v 100AH  giving 400AH at 24v.  Normally this would be a typical bank. Cycle down to 75% each night. Thus consuming 100A. 

Now add two Lithiums of also 100AH 12v giving 100AH at 24v. You now have a 500AH bank….

If you still use 100A then the first 80 will come from the Lithiums or until their voltage drops below 13.2v and then the remaining demand will be supplied from the whole bank. in fact as the lithium voltage drops the AGM’s will take over and start to prop up the Lithiums…so that they do not get depleted too low.

When it comes to charging the Lithiums are more efficient and will accept fast charge, and the AGM’s will trickle full all day if there is sufficient solar….

The end result is that for the cost of only two Lithiums you have in effect a very long lasting bank. The AGM’s only cycle a few percent each day but on occasion they can be as required. They are there as reserve and barely cycle thus will last for a long time maybe more than a decade…

If one was to do this one would have to be very careful connecting the Lithiums… the AGM bank would need to be charged to float 13.2v. The Lithiums would need to be discharged to the same voltage 13.2v so when you connect them together there is no current flow between the batteries. It would be dangerous to connect them with say Lithiums at 13.8v and the AGM’s at 12.5v as it would arc at the moment of contact.

Now shout me down and tell my why this is not a good idea….

Remember the objective is to get the best AH for the lowest cost….

Merry Christmas

Nick

S/Y Amelia

AML 54-019

Stored ashore in Leros

On 12 Dec 2021, at 22:17, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Kent, Doesn't this explain the furling and outhaul motors not working properly?

Batteries are like anchors, there are lots of opinions and most opinions are based on limited comparative experience.

This is what I tell my clients and it is totally my opinion:

The best house battery buy is the basic DEKA Marine Master Deep Cycle DC31DT battery which will last 2 years, maybe 3. At $107 each (Lowes in the US) it seems like a bargain regardless of which battery you compare it to. Sure there are better batteries that will last longer, but none will cost you less per month. There are so many disappointments that have been reported by Amel owners, it is hard to choose something else. But when you buy these DEKAs and they fail in 2 years, remember that was the expectation. 

And don't forget about the DEKA 12-Volt 1000-Amp Marine Start Battery.

This is what 8 DC31DT batteries and 1 DEKA 12-Volt 1000-Amp Marine Start Battery will cost you at Lowes. 

Don't forget to check the water in these batteries. They will not last if you allow them to charge and discharge with low water.

<67774066-f4dd-4bf7-9da3-bba60d865215.png>

	CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School +1 832-380-4970 |  brouse@... Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550  Website: www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com

View My Training Calendar

Create your own email signature

On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 11:36 AM karkauai via groups.io <karkauai=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Here I am again, singing the same tune...
In 2018 I bought 8 Crown "deep cycle" group 31s. They were great for about a year, then slowly began to deteriorate.  With 520 AHr and fully solar charged by early afternoon, when new I was waking up to 25.4-25.6v after about 50AHr use overnight.  This slowly deteriorated until I was running the generator before bed to avoid dropping voltage below 24.7.  I nursed them along until July 21 and bought 8 NAPA (Penn)105 AHr group 31s.  They have already failed, after working great initially, in just 5 months.

I charge at 28.5v Abs, 27v Float, and equalize at 31v (on recommendation of Crown engineer).  I have a 105A Magnum  charger/inverter, and 850W solar in 3 pairs, each pair with it's own Victron MPPP controller, and a 60 A alternator using a Balmar external regulator.

My first 3 sets of similar hybrid batteries didn't start to deteriorate until they were 30-36 months old.  This started after I installed solar.  Watching the voltages and solar output closely shows them acting as they are set to act.  Measuring amperage at the primary 25v cable from battery studs to switch, I don't find any excess current flowing with switches on or off.  All batteries measure within 0.1v after disconnecting for 6 hours. All cells have SG 1.019 +/- .001, which does not improve after 6 hrs equalizing at 31v.  All read within .2v of each other after load testing, which shows them barely in the "fair" range.  It doesn't seem to be a matter of one bad battery or cell, or unequal charging...they are all deteriorating at the same rate.

Soooo...
I need new batteries again, and am thinking about AGM golf cart batteries.  So far they are all 11.5" height, and my very early SM2000 has only 10.5" battery box height. I'm also only able to install 8+1 group31 batteries, limiting my total AHr capacity.

I'd like to make the switch to LiFePO4, but insurance is proving to be a problem.  I had hoped by the time my current batteries failed I'd be able to find insurance...alas, they've gone belly up after only a few months.

I'd love to hear any thoughts about my current ( no pun intended) problem, 6v AGMs that will fit my space, Lithium conversion insurance availability (I'm US flagged, but could register elsewhere, I guess). 
-- 
Kent & Iris

KRISTY

SM243

--

SM #121 Nausicaä

Nantes, France

I am going to throw this one out there to the community. it is just an idea...

Has anyone tried a hybrid AGM and Lithium battery bank?

I am thinking it to be 75% AGM and 25% Lithium. All connected together as one bank….I know…..just hear me out…..it is unorthodox and only an idea….up for debate...

Both battery types can be charged at  14v….then when the charge source is turned off

AGM's will drop to about 13.2v, immediately. This is the float voltage for AGM’s.

Lithium will also drop to 13.2v but maintain that voltage until say 20% capacity remains. This is part of the Lithium chemistry.

In a typical cycle, the AGM’s will be kept at float by the Lithium. So only the Lithium part will be used, but there will still be the AGM that can start to share the load after the Lithium bank has been 80% depleted. So in effect one is cycling only the Lithium part…given that Lithium can be cycled many more times than AGM’s this should be cost effective.

In Practice… imagine 8 AGM batteries of 12v 100AH  giving 400AH at 24v.  Normally this would be a typical bank. Cycle down to 75% each night. Thus consuming 100A. 

Now add two Lithiums of also 100AH 12v giving 100AH at 24v. You now have a 500AH bank….

If you still use 100A then the first 80 will come from the Lithiums or until their voltage drops below 13.2v and then the remaining demand will be supplied from the whole bank. in fact as the lithium voltage drops the AGM’s will take over and start to prop up the Lithiums…so that they do not get depleted too low.

When it comes to charging the Lithiums are more efficient and will accept fast charge, and the AGM’s will trickle full all day if there is sufficient solar….

The end result is that for the cost of only two Lithiums you have in effect a very long lasting bank. The AGM’s only cycle a few percent each day but on occasion they can be as required. They are there as reserve and barely cycle thus will last for a long time maybe more than a decade…

If one was to do this one would have to be very careful connecting the Lithiums… the AGM bank would need to be charged to float 13.2v. The Lithiums would need to be discharged to the same voltage 13.2v so when you connect them together there is no current flow between the batteries. It would be dangerous to connect them with say Lithiums at 13.8v and the AGM’s at 12.5v as it would arc at the moment of contact.

Now shout me down and tell my why this is not a good idea….

Remember the objective is to get the best AH for the lowest cost….

Merry Christmas

Nick

S/Y Amelia

AML 54-019

Stored ashore in Leros

On 12 Dec 2021, at 22:17, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Kent, Doesn't this explain the furling and outhaul motors not working properly?

Batteries are like anchors, there are lots of opinions and most opinions are based on limited comparative experience.

This is what I tell my clients and it is totally my opinion:

The best house battery buy is the basic DEKA Marine Master Deep Cycle DC31DT battery which will last 2 years, maybe 3. At $107 each (Lowes in the US) it seems like a bargain regardless of which battery you compare it to. Sure there are better batteries that will last longer, but none will cost you less per month. There are so many disappointments that have been reported by Amel owners, it is hard to choose something else. But when you buy these DEKAs and they fail in 2 years, remember that was the expectation. 

And don't forget about the DEKA 12-Volt 1000-Amp Marine Start Battery.

This is what 8 DC31DT batteries and 1 DEKA 12-Volt 1000-Amp Marine Start Battery will cost you at Lowes. 

Don't forget to check the water in these batteries. They will not last if you allow them to charge and discharge with low water.

<67774066-f4dd-4bf7-9da3-bba60d865215.png>

	CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School +1 832-380-4970 |  brouse@... Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550  Website: www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com

View My Training Calendar

Create your own email signature

On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 11:36 AM karkauai via groups.io <karkauai=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Here I am again, singing the same tune...
In 2018 I bought 8 Crown "deep cycle" group 31s. They were great for about a year, then slowly began to deteriorate.  With 520 AHr and fully solar charged by early afternoon, when new I was waking up to 25.4-25.6v after about 50AHr use overnight.  This slowly deteriorated until I was running the generator before bed to avoid dropping voltage below 24.7.  I nursed them along until July 21 and bought 8 NAPA (Penn)105 AHr group 31s.  They have already failed, after working great initially, in just 5 months.

I charge at 28.5v Abs, 27v Float, and equalize at 31v (on recommendation of Crown engineer).  I have a 105A Magnum  charger/inverter, and 850W solar in 3 pairs, each pair with it's own Victron MPPP controller, and a 60 A alternator using a Balmar external regulator.

My first 3 sets of similar hybrid batteries didn't start to deteriorate until they were 30-36 months old.  This started after I installed solar.  Watching the voltages and solar output closely shows them acting as they are set to act.  Measuring amperage at the primary 25v cable from battery studs to switch, I don't find any excess current flowing with switches on or off.  All batteries measure within 0.1v after disconnecting for 6 hours. All cells have SG 1.019 +/- .001, which does not improve after 6 hrs equalizing at 31v.  All read within .2v of each other after load testing, which shows them barely in the "fair" range.  It doesn't seem to be a matter of one bad battery or cell, or unequal charging...they are all deteriorating at the same rate.

Soooo...
I need new batteries again, and am thinking about AGM golf cart batteries.  So far they are all 11.5" height, and my very early SM2000 has only 10.5" battery box height. I'm also only able to install 8+1 group31 batteries, limiting my total AHr capacity.

I'd like to make the switch to LiFePO4, but insurance is proving to be a problem.  I had hoped by the time my current batteries failed I'd be able to find insurance...alas, they've gone belly up after only a few months.

I'd love to hear any thoughts about my current ( no pun intended) problem, 6v AGMs that will fit my space, Lithium conversion insurance availability (I'm US flagged, but could register elsewhere, I guess). 
-- 
Kent & Iris

KRISTY

SM243

I am going to throw this one out there to the community. it is just an idea...

Has anyone tried a hybrid AGM and Lithium battery bank?

I am thinking it to be 75% AGM and 25% Lithium. All connected together as one bank….I know…..just hear me out…..it is unorthodox and only an idea….up for debate...

Both battery types can be charged at  14v….then when the charge source is turned off

AGM's will drop to about 13.2v, immediately. This is the float voltage for AGM’s.

Lithium will also drop to 13.2v but maintain that voltage until say 20% capacity remains. This is part of the Lithium chemistry.

In a typical cycle, the AGM’s will be kept at float by the Lithium. So only the Lithium part will be used, but there will still be the AGM that can start to share the load after the Lithium bank has been 80% depleted. So in effect one is cycling only the Lithium part…given that Lithium can be cycled many more times than AGM’s this should be cost effective.

In Practice… imagine 8 AGM batteries of 12v 100AH  giving 400AH at 24v.  Normally this would be a typical bank. Cycle down to 75% each night. Thus consuming 100A. 

Now add two Lithiums of also 100AH 12v giving 100AH at 24v. You now have a 500AH bank….

If you still use 100A then the first 80 will come from the Lithiums or until their voltage drops below 13.2v and then the remaining demand will be supplied from the whole bank. in fact as the lithium voltage drops the AGM’s will take over and start to prop up the Lithiums…so that they do not get depleted too low.

When it comes to charging the Lithiums are more efficient and will accept fast charge, and the AGM’s will trickle full all day if there is sufficient solar….

The end result is that for the cost of only two Lithiums you have in effect a very long lasting bank. The AGM’s only cycle a few percent each day but on occasion they can be as required. They are there as reserve and barely cycle thus will last for a long time maybe more than a decade…

If one was to do this one would have to be very careful connecting the Lithiums… the AGM bank would need to be charged to float 13.2v. The Lithiums would need to be discharged to the same voltage 13.2v so when you connect them together there is no current flow between the batteries. It would be dangerous to connect them with say Lithiums at 13.8v and the AGM’s at 12.5v as it would arc at the moment of contact.

Now shout me down and tell my why this is not a good idea….

Remember the objective is to get the best AH for the lowest cost….

Merry Christmas

Nick

S/Y Amelia

AML 54-019

Stored ashore in Leros

On 12 Dec 2021, at 22:17, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Kent, Doesn't this explain the furling and outhaul motors not working properly?

Batteries are like anchors, there are lots of opinions and most opinions are based on limited comparative experience.

This is what I tell my clients and it is totally my opinion:

The best house battery buy is the basic DEKA Marine Master Deep Cycle DC31DT battery which will last 2 years, maybe 3. At $107 each (Lowes in the US) it seems like a bargain regardless of which battery you compare it to. Sure there are better batteries that will last longer, but none will cost you less per month. There are so many disappointments that have been reported by Amel owners, it is hard to choose something else. But when you buy these DEKAs and they fail in 2 years, remember that was the expectation. 

And don't forget about the DEKA 12-Volt 1000-Amp Marine Start Battery.

This is what 8 DC31DT batteries and 1 DEKA 12-Volt 1000-Amp Marine Start Battery will cost you at Lowes. 

Don't forget to check the water in these batteries. They will not last if you allow them to charge and discharge with low water.

<67774066-f4dd-4bf7-9da3-bba60d865215.png>

	CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School +1 832-380-4970 |  brouse@... Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550  Website: www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com

View My Training Calendar

Create your own email signature

On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 11:36 AM karkauai via groups.io <karkauai=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Here I am again, singing the same tune...
In 2018 I bought 8 Crown "deep cycle" group 31s. They were great for about a year, then slowly began to deteriorate.  With 520 AHr and fully solar charged by early afternoon, when new I was waking up to 25.4-25.6v after about 50AHr use overnight.  This slowly deteriorated until I was running the generator before bed to avoid dropping voltage below 24.7.  I nursed them along until July 21 and bought 8 NAPA (Penn)105 AHr group 31s.  They have already failed, after working great initially, in just 5 months.

I charge at 28.5v Abs, 27v Float, and equalize at 31v (on recommendation of Crown engineer).  I have a 105A Magnum  charger/inverter, and 850W solar in 3 pairs, each pair with it's own Victron MPPP controller, and a 60 A alternator using a Balmar external regulator.

My first 3 sets of similar hybrid batteries didn't start to deteriorate until they were 30-36 months old.  This started after I installed solar.  Watching the voltages and solar output closely shows them acting as they are set to act.  Measuring amperage at the primary 25v cable from battery studs to switch, I don't find any excess current flowing with switches on or off.  All batteries measure within 0.1v after disconnecting for 6 hours. All cells have SG 1.019 +/- .001, which does not improve after 6 hrs equalizing at 31v.  All read within .2v of each other after load testing, which shows them barely in the "fair" range.  It doesn't seem to be a matter of one bad battery or cell, or unequal charging...they are all deteriorating at the same rate.

Soooo...
I need new batteries again, and am thinking about AGM golf cart batteries.  So far they are all 11.5" height, and my very early SM2000 has only 10.5" battery box height. I'm also only able to install 8+1 group31 batteries, limiting my total AHr capacity.

I'd like to make the switch to LiFePO4, but insurance is proving to be a problem.  I had hoped by the time my current batteries failed I'd be able to find insurance...alas, they've gone belly up after only a few months.

I'd love to hear any thoughts about my current ( no pun intended) problem, 6v AGMs that will fit my space, Lithium conversion insurance availability (I'm US flagged, but could register elsewhere, I guess). 
-- 
Kent & Iris

KRISTY

SM243

I am going to throw this one out there to the community. it is just an idea...

On 12 Dec 2021, at 22:17, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Kent, Doesn't this explain the furling and outhaul motors not working properly?

Batteries are like anchors, there are lots of opinions and most opinions are based on limited comparative experience.

This is what I tell my clients and it is totally my opinion:

The best house battery buy is the basic DEKA Marine Master Deep Cycle DC31DT battery which will last 2 years, maybe 3. At $107 each (Lowes in the US) it seems like a bargain regardless of which battery you compare it to. Sure there are better batteries that will last longer, but none will cost you less per month. There are so many disappointments that have been reported by Amel owners, it is hard to choose something else. But when you buy these DEKAs and they fail in 2 years, remember that was the expectation. 

And don't forget about the DEKA 12-Volt 1000-Amp Marine Start Battery.

This is what 8 DC31DT batteries and 1 DEKA 12-Volt 1000-Amp Marine Start Battery will cost you at Lowes. 

Don't forget to check the water in these batteries. They will not last if you allow them to charge and discharge with low water.

<67774066-f4dd-4bf7-9da3-bba60d865215.png>

	CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School +1 832-380-4970 |  brouse@... Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550  Website: www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com

View My Training Calendar

Create your own email signature

On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 11:36 AM karkauai via groups.io <karkauai=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Here I am again, singing the same tune...
In 2018 I bought 8 Crown "deep cycle" group 31s. They were great for about a year, then slowly began to deteriorate.  With 520 AHr and fully solar charged by early afternoon, when new I was waking up to 25.4-25.6v after about 50AHr use overnight.  This slowly deteriorated until I was running the generator before bed to avoid dropping voltage below 24.7.  I nursed them along until July 21 and bought 8 NAPA (Penn)105 AHr group 31s.  They have already failed, after working great initially, in just 5 months.

I charge at 28.5v Abs, 27v Float, and equalize at 31v (on recommendation of Crown engineer).  I have a 105A Magnum  charger/inverter, and 850W solar in 3 pairs, each pair with it's own Victron MPPP controller, and a 60 A alternator using a Balmar external regulator.

My first 3 sets of similar hybrid batteries didn't start to deteriorate until they were 30-36 months old.  This started after I installed solar.  Watching the voltages and solar output closely shows them acting as they are set to act.  Measuring amperage at the primary 25v cable from battery studs to switch, I don't find any excess current flowing with switches on or off.  All batteries measure within 0.1v after disconnecting for 6 hours. All cells have SG 1.019 +/- .001, which does not improve after 6 hrs equalizing at 31v.  All read within .2v of each other after load testing, which shows them barely in the "fair" range.  It doesn't seem to be a matter of one bad battery or cell, or unequal charging...they are all deteriorating at the same rate.

Soooo...
I need new batteries again, and am thinking about AGM golf cart batteries.  So far they are all 11.5" height, and my very early SM2000 has only 10.5" battery box height. I'm also only able to install 8+1 group31 batteries, limiting my total AHr capacity.

I'd like to make the switch to LiFePO4, but insurance is proving to be a problem.  I had hoped by the time my current batteries failed I'd be able to find insurance...alas, they've gone belly up after only a few months.

I'd love to hear any thoughts about my current ( no pun intended) problem, 6v AGMs that will fit my space, Lithium conversion insurance availability (I'm US flagged, but could register elsewhere, I guess). 
-- 
Kent & Iris

KRISTY

SM243