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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering system.
Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
Danny and Bill R,
Thanks for the help Bill, Danny and Olivier. Exactly what I needed to know. And yes Olivier, this was once Ann Harsh’s boat. Our steering system was replaced half way through Harmonie’s second circumnavigation, so it is much newer than the boat herself. My original autopilot installation was a Autohelm 6000 and an Autohelm 7000. I quickly learned to love the 6000, but not so much the 7000. Nothing wrong with it, it was just primitive compared to what I am used to. As part of our overall electronics upgrade, we swapped out the AH7000 for a new, more sophisticated, B&G autopilot which I love even more. Frequently, while sailing near to close hauled, I will just tell the B&G pilot to just hold a constant rudder angle, and let the boat steer herself with the sails. In this case, the AP computer commands a rudder angle of (for example) 2º port. Once there, it should stay without further motor activity. And it does--if I use the lineardrive motor connected to the quadrant. If I use the chain drive, it struggles as the rudder flops a tiny bit back and forth with the slack in the cables changing the reported angle. It keeps trying to adjust, to hold that 2º angle when it should just be locked in place. Like I said, it’s a tiny movement, but enough to be annoying and uselessly wearing on things. Bill Kinney SM #160, Harmonie On the Hard, Fort Lauderdale, FL |
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] engine hours
Thanks Bill!
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-----Original Message----- From: 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] To: amelyachtowners Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2016 12:57 pm Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] engine hours I will tell you from experience if a normally aspirated non-computer-controlled diesel is 8 years old and only has 700 hours, there will be problems with that engine.
Variables that make a difference in achieving 10,000 to 15,000 hours between overhaul are the owner's habits, maintenance, and engine brand.
Of course everyone has opinions and most people have limited experience with one brand, etc. I think that you could ask this question to 100 people and still not have any statistically significant information because opinions are based on limited user samplings.
Lastly, an engine is NOT a significant factor in buying a boat because an engine overhaul costs less than a new set of sails and running rigging, or new standing rigging. Engine hours mean little in the overall value relationship when considering a boat.
Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387 Sent from my tablet +1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail On Dec 6, 2016 1:20 PM, "Courtney Gorman Itsfun1@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] engine hours
both are volvo's
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Thanks! much appreciated -----Original Message----- From: Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] To: amelyachtowners Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2016 12:55 pm Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] engine hours Hi Courtney.
What kind of engines are they?
Those are both low-hour Diesel engines. With good care you should be able to get 10000 hours or more.
On the 2900 hour one, I'd ask for an engine oil analysis (although it won't be of any help if the oil has just been changed. I'd also have a look at the inside of the exhaust elbow and turbo to assess for carbon buildup.
The 700 hr one is still in its infancy.
Make sure that the engines reach appropriate rpms under load on your sea trials.
Also, get a hand pump and a pvc pipe long enough to reach the bottom of the tank and suck some fuel into a clear jug to look for water and debris, especial
ly if it's been sitting unused for months.
On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:19 PM, Courtney Gorman Itsfun1@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: Hi all I am new to this group and in the buying (looking) stage. As far as engine hours go what would you say about an 8 year old engine with 2900 hrs compared to one with 700 hours? Due hours tell the true story and how many before a rebuild or new engine is needed?
Thanks for your help
Courtney
Cheers!
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering system.
Olivier Beaute
Hi again Bill, I forgot to mention something about the other end of the cables. They are connected to a rack-and-pinion system and their housing is secured on a square piece (located at each end of the square tubes, on portside). Some of you may have these pieces made of black plastic. If so, they may catch some slack after a few tenth of thousand miles. AMEL can sell you these pieces made of steel, that will never get any slack. Most probably, the Santorins and SMs built after 1995 have steel square pieces. The ones bult before may have plastic ones, or their owners have already replaced those with steel ones. Have a good watch... Olivier On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 6:45 PM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote: Bill,
I will tell you my experience and what I have been told.
I have been told that the cables never need service or grease and that they are sealed.
I know that one owner experienced teeth on the rack gear breaking.
I experienced what I thought was a little too much play and found the bolts that clamp the quadrant to the rudder post to be loose.
The Raymarine 300 - 400 series of course computers will correct more ("hunt") than the S3G. I have both and prefer the S3G.
Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387 Sent from my tablet +1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail On Dec 6, 2016 11:06 AM, "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering system.
Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
Hi Bill, surprised you say the Raymarine "hunts". Do you adjust the response rate and the rudder gain. I have found I an take the responses from rapid to infrequent by adjusting these. I have settled on a rudder gain setting and mostly have the response on 3 but at times move that number. Cheers Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl From: "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2016 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering system. Bill,
I will tell you my experience and what I have been told.
I have been told that the cables never need service or grease and that they are sealed.
I know that one owner experienced teeth on the rack gear breaking.
I experienced what I thought was a little too much play and found the bolts that clamp the quadrant to the rudder post to be loose.
The Raymarine 300 - 400 series of course computers will correct more ("hunt") than the S3G. I have both and prefer the S3G.
Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387 Sent from my tablet +1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail On Dec 6, 2016 11:06 AM, "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] engine hours
Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
I will tell you from experience if a normally aspirated non-computer-controlled diesel is 8 years old and only has 700 hours, there will be problems with that engine. Variables that make a difference in achieving 10,000 to 15,000 hours between overhaul are the owner's habits, maintenance, and engine brand. Of course everyone has opinions and most people have limited experience with one brand, etc. I think that you could ask this question to 100 people and still not have any statistically significant information because opinions are based on limited user samplings. Lastly, an engine is NOT a significant factor in buying a boat because an engine overhaul costs less than a new set of sails and running rigging, or new standing rigging. Engine hours mean little in the overall value relationship when considering a boat. Bill Rouse On Dec 6, 2016 1:20 PM, "Courtney Gorman Itsfun1@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] engine hours
Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
Diesel engine hours are a small part of the story. And lower is not always better. Engines like to run—especially diesels.
Certainly different people will give you different numbers, but most marine diesels will run something like 6000 to 12000 hours before needing a major rebuild depending on a LOT of things... 2900 hours is a young engine--if well cared for. On the other hand an engine that sits and doesn’t get used dies an early death. An engine that is 8 years old that has only 700 hours. That’s only 7 hours a month on average. If those hours were evenly distributed (maybe running an hour every week?) that would be OK. On the other hand if it sat for many months (years?) without running that would be bad… Bill Kinney SM #160, Harmonie On the Hard, Fort Lauderdale, FL |
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] engine hours
Hi Courtney. What kind of engines are they? Those are both low-hour Diesel engines. With good care you should be able to get 10000 hours or more. On the 2900 hour one, I'd ask for an engine oil analysis (although it won't be of any help if the oil has just been changed. I'd also have a look at the inside of the exhaust elbow and turbo to assess for carbon buildup. The 700 hr one is still in its infancy. Make sure that the engines reach appropriate rpms under load on your sea trials. Also, get a hand pump and a pvc pipe long enough to reach the bottom of the tank and suck some fuel into a clear jug to look for water and debris, especially if it's been sitting unused for months. On Dec 6, 2016, at 12:19 PM, Courtney Gorman Itsfun1@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Hi all I am new to this group and in the buying (looking) stage. As far as engine hours go what would you say about an 8 year old engine with 2900 hrs compared to one with 700 hours? Due hours tell the true story and how many before a rebuild or new engine is needed? Thanks for your help
Courtney
Cheers!
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Wearing out bearing
Olivier Beaute
Good evening, there has been about 10 wearing out bushings chrome plated. It's a test made by AMEL to see if the wear is less than with the usual bronze (they still use the same system on the 55 and 64). This bushing should be replaced every 800 hours of engine running. Of course, the shaft alternator's hours count like the engine hours. However, some bushings last much more than 800 hours, and I've seen SMs that still had the original bushing after 10 years (I could see the owner wondering was the hell I was talking about when I asked: When did you last replace the bushing and seals?). AMEL also mentioned a time (2 years) because it's just simple to remember and do it at the haul-out for anti-fouling. The best way to monitor this system is to watch the oil in the container. When you start seeing mayonnaise or cafe-creme, then you need to plan a haul-out for this service, but the unit can go on running like this for 50 to 100 hours. In fact, only a very little amount of water can create mayonnaise in this big "mixer-blender" that is this C-drive. There is almost no air in the 8 liters of oil, so not much corrosion, even with a little bit of water... I would say that, if you've never done it, and you reach 800 hours, don't try the DIY. You should wait up to 100 or 200 more hours (watching periodically your oil container) until you meet a good mechanic who will meticulously replace the bushing and seals with a good result. Finally, yes, there is a lip-seal at the shaft input of the upper unit. When it leaks, you see the oil drops...and that's not so bad as water entering the unit. Bon courage pour la mécanique! Olivier On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 9:24 AM, "Ian Park parkianj@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote: 800 hours engine use or 800 hours prop shaft use? With the prop shaft alternator on the Santorin turning all the time perhaps the wear time is shorter? Any views?
Ian Ocean Hobo SN96 |
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering system.
Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
Bill, I will tell you my experience and what I have been told. I have been told that the cables never need service or grease and that they are sealed. I know that one owner experienced teeth on the rack gear breaking. I experienced what I thought was a little too much play and found the bolts that clamp the quadrant to the rudder post to be loose. The Raymarine 300 - 400 series of course computers will correct more ("hunt") than the S3G. I have both and prefer the S3G. Bill Rouse On Dec 6, 2016 11:06 AM, "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering system.
Olivier Beaute
Hello Bill, was your SM owned previously by Ann Harsh? I did the hand-over when she came to la Rochelle to take Harmonie. The steering system doesn't need any lubrication, except where you see the steel rods at the end of the cables. These rods enter a tube and you need to keep them greasy. There shouldn't be too much slack in the cables...What too much means is when you turn the wheel and the rudder shaft doesn't turn after 5 cm (2 inches) on the wheel's circumference, then you have too much slack in the cables. Then, you need to tighten the cables ' housings (just like on a bike brake's cable). This happens in the aft cabin. You first undo the big hex nuts that secure the housings to the threaded tubes. Then you turn both tubes clockwise (when you face them looking towards portside). To know how much you turn, carve a little mark on each tube. Start with one turn on each tube, then try to turn the wheel and watch when the rudder shaft starts to turn. if you can still turn 10 cm before the rudder shaft moves, you still have too much slack. Then turn each tube half a turn and check again. Don't forget to tighten the HEX nuts at the end of the operation. You're right to mention that with a loose cable system, the pilot rotary drive is working half the time for nothing. If you really tighten the housings too much, you will feel it when you turn the wheel, it will be harder. Good luck. Olivier On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:06 PM, "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote: Another question for the Amel "old timers". This one about the steering system. Does anyone have a link to technical information about the system used? In Harmonie's reasonably complete paperwork from her commissioning I can't find anything. After keeping the water out of the boat, making sure I can keep steering it the way I want to go is a close second in priority. I have two specific questions: Is any maintenance required? Lubrication? Adjustment? etc? How much, if any, "play" should there be in the system between the wheel and the rudder? Right now I would guess there is something like 0.25º of rudder angle play. Barely enough to feel when hand steering, but when using the chain-drive AP motor it spends more time hunting back and forth for the commanded rudder angle than I would like to see. In the kind of cable and pulley systems I am used to this much wiggle would be indicative of very loose and sloppy cables. On this enclosed pull-pull system I am not sure... Thanks for any guidance you can give. Bill Kinney SM#160 Harmonie On the hard Fort Lauderdale, FL |
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engine hours
Hi all I am new to this group and in the buying (looking) stage. As far as engine hours go what would you say about an 8 year old engine with 2900 hrs compared to one with 700 hours? Due hours tell the true story and how many before a rebuild or new engine is needed?
Thanks for your help
Courtney
Cheers!
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Changing companionway veneer.
Juan GV <tortolacinco@...>
Hi Eric I forgot my email address. Regards  2016-12-06 11:44 GMT-05:00 Juan GV <tortolacinco@...>:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Maramu cockpit canopy
Juan GV <tortolacinco@...>
Hi Alex I think I have the same problem with water in the union of the hull with the hardtop. Can you send these photos? They will surely be a great help Thanks Juan Juan Garcia SV Tórtola - Mango # 56 Cartagena de Indias
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Changing companionway veneer.
Juan GV <tortolacinco@...>
Hi Eric I want to change the sliding door I think it would be very useful the information you have on the hardtop. Do I could send the photos? Thanks Juan Garcia SV Tórtola - Mango #56 Cartagena de Indias
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Mastervolt rocks!
sailor63109@...
I had two Mastervolt Magic DC to DC converters for the SSB supply. Somehow they both failed. I sent them in to Mastervolt to see if they were repairable and they are not. However, Mastervolt has volunteered to replace theses 11 year old units under warranty. I never would have guessed. I can't find any warranty information on them but can it be more than 11 years? Duane Wanderer SM#477 |
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Steering system.
greatketch@...
Another question for the Amel "old timers". This one about the steering system. Does anyone have a link to technical information about the system used? In Harmonie's reasonably complete paperwork from her commissioning I can't find anything. After keeping the water out of the boat, making sure I can keep steering it the way I want to go is a close second in priority. I have two specific questions: Is any maintenance required? Lubrication? Adjustment? etc? How much, if any, "play" should there be in the system between the wheel and the rudder?
Right now I would guess there is something like 0.25º of rudder angle play. Barely enough to feel when hand steering, but when using the chain-drive AP motor it spends more time hunting back and forth for the commanded rudder angle than I would like to see. In the kind of cable and pulley systems I am used to this much wiggle would be indicative of very loose and sloppy cables. On this enclosed pull-pull system I am not sure... Thanks for any guidance you can give. Bill Kinney SM#160 Harmonie On the hard Fort Lauderdale, FL |
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Wearing out bearing
Ian Park
800 hours engine use or 800 hours prop shaft use? With the prop shaft alternator on the Santorin turning all the time perhaps the wear time is shorter? Any views?
Ian Ocean Hobo SN96 |
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Wearing out bearing
Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
There must be a lip seal where the driven horizontal shaft enters the oil-filled c-drive. There is oil on the inside, and a rotating shaft. A seal is needed. In this service a lip seal should normally last as long or longer than the lip seals on the crankshaft on the engine, or the ones on the transmission shaft
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Pretty much every rotating shaft with oil on one side has a lip seal. The only alternative is a carbon faced mechanical seal. Anything else gets pretty exotic... Bill Kinney SM #160, Harmonie On the Hard, Fort Lauderdale, FL
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Wearing out bearing
That would be the Santorin. Santorum is the politician Kent Kristy SM 243 |
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