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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Degraded continuity

Kent Robertson
 

Best thing to do is move, if that's not possible, disconnect from shore power.  Run the generator until it's fixed.  If you disconnect and still have hull potential greater than -900mv (less negative eg -700), at least temporarily get off the dock and check it while you are away from dock and other boats.  If you just turn off the breaker, you are still connected via the ground wire.

Hope you find that article, that was good stuff.

Kent Robertson
828-234-6819 voice/text

On Sep 1, 2016, at 4:31 PM, David Vogel dbv_au@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Kent,

Electrolytic and galvanic corrosion has been an intriguing topic of conversation between many folk on this forum, and with some considerable cost to some.  I have been an avid follower, but unfort I can say that I have not yet gotten my head fully around it all as yet - for example what should you do if you do find a neighboring boat leaking stacks of current into the water, that is going through your own boat and destroying the shaft and drive-train on the way through?  Move the boat is a clear answer, but perhaps not that viable.  Anyway, hopefully I'll understand in time.  This clear lack of knowledge and understanding has triggered no small research into Stray Current, and the electrical system in general as I realise there are some expensive traps, even for those 'in the know'.  I can't say where exactly each of these nuggets come from, but "from that great resource the internet" - I have the luxury of unlimited fast broadband at the moment - so this is the best answer at the moment --- these are some of the things that have stuck.  If I find the original resource again, then I will post with the link &/or a copy of the consolidated material.  Anything I can pay back to the community, then I am keen to do.

Cheers,

David


On Wednesday, 31 August 2016, 16:14, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
That's some great info, David.  Where did you read that?
Kent
SM243
Kristy

Kent Robertson
828-234-6819 voice/text

On Aug 31, 2016, at 5:07 AM, David Vogel dbv_au@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Hi all,

Reading the great advice from Kent (If it still reads -750mv, you may have a DC current leak on your boat)  reminded me of some other interesting tips I've found out recently whilst studying this topic . . .

Test the galvanic potential of the silver reference anode in both AC and DC volts - if there is any AC reading (shown by any Hz reading on a clamp-style Digital Multi-Meter - DMM), then this indicates that there could be a problem with AC current leaking into the water nearby and affecting our boat - if your own installation is up to scratch, then it could be a shore-power problem on a neighboring boat.  Better to know than not.

Another way to test for STRAY CURRENT coming on-board via the shore-power connection, is to take a DMM and to set it to DC AMPs, and then clamp your shore-power cable.  If everything is as it should be, there will be no net current flow - the AC current flow via the active wire is cancelled out via the AC current flowing via the neutral wire -  the resultant reading should be zero.  If however there is any DC current flow, this tells us that some current is 'leaking', presumably from the shore-power supply to the water, via our boat and its zincs, grounding plane, or other immersed metal bits.  To help locate the source, which may be a neighboring boat, simply clamp their shore-power cords in the same way ... non-intrusive testing like this may find the culprit.

In the same way, clamping our boat's green bonding wire at various locations with the DMM set to measure DC AMPs, can show stray current travelling via the bonding system, and may help locate the problem area.  Switching between DC and AC AMPs whilst clamping can also help identify the source.  Generally AC current (Hz on the DMM) indicates shore-power, but can also point to bad diodes in the alternator, dirty current from battery chargers, leaking AC appliances, or power cord leaks.

DC current flows point to the boat's DC system and equipment.  Do the same for any single or bundle of duplex wires - it should always read zero. If there is an current leak, then this will show up via an amp reading - searching on single circuits (pairs of wires) will help locate the source and possible problem areas.

Similarly, clamp the positive and negative leads from/to the battery bank.  These should read the same (but in a reverse sense).  If not, then it would be prudent to start to track down the difference, which is a potentially boat-destroying, or at least very expensive, current leak.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

David
(not yet an owner)
Re: bow thruster maintenance....

yahoogroups@...
 

Fred,

Where are you?

If you add where you are to your posts, there may be a SM owner nearby and will volunteer to help.

Bill
BeBe 386
Boat in Trinidad, crew in Houston
Re: bow thruster maintenance....

fredrolet@...
 

Thanks everybody
I am arming myself with patience,lube and a hammer.....
will let you know when it breaks free.
Fred #269
Re: Rigging tune on Maramu caused damage

Peter Blokpoel
 

Ok James I will check again the bottom of the box from outside and will try to remove some of the isolation on the ceiling of engine room and check there. Will let you know any results.

When you are back on board could you check if the base of the compressionposts are set on steel or wood?

Peter
Re: bow thruster maintenance....

yahoogroups@...
 

Fred,

Don't cut the tube. That will not solve your problem and will create several new problems.

Patience, steady and persistent pulling with the tool, tapping with a mallet, and in 2-3 days it will break free.

If it does not, you can disassemble the foot from the tube, remove the motor with the bound tube and take it to a machinist to remove.

Bill
BeBe 387
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Degraded continuity

David Vogel <dbv_au@...>
 

Hi Kent,

Electrolytic and galvanic corrosion has been an intriguing topic of conversation between many folk on this forum, and with some considerable cost to some.  I have been an avid follower, but unfort I can say that I have not yet gotten my head fully around it all as yet - for example what should you do if you do find a neighboring boat leaking stacks of current into the water, that is going through your own boat and destroying the shaft and drive-train on the way through?  Move the boat is a clear answer, but perhaps not that viable.  Anyway, hopefully I'll understand in time.  This clear lack of knowledge and understanding has triggered no small research into Stray Current, and the electrical system in general as I realise there are some expensive traps, even for those 'in the know'.  I can't say where exactly each of these nuggets come from, but "from that great resource the internet" - I have the luxury of unlimited fast broadband at the moment - so this is the best answer at the moment --- these are some of the things that have stuck.  If I find the original resource again, then I will post with the link &/or a copy of the consolidated material.  Anything I can pay back to the community, then I am keen to do.

Cheers,

David


On Wednesday, 31 August 2016, 16:14, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
That's some great info, David.  Where did you read that?
Kent
SM243
Kristy

Kent Robertson
828-234-6819 voice/text

On Aug 31, 2016, at 5:07 AM, David Vogel dbv_au@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Hi all,

Reading the great advice from Kent (If it still reads -750mv, you may have a DC current leak on your boat)  reminded me of some other interesting tips I've found out recently whilst studying this topic . . .

Test the galvanic potential of the silver reference anode in both AC and DC volts - if there is any AC reading (shown by any Hz reading on a clamp-style Digital Multi-Meter - DMM), then this indicates that there could be a problem with AC current leaking into the water nearby and affecting our boat - if your own installation is up to scratch, then it could be a shore-power problem on a neighboring boat.  Better to know than not.

Another way to test for STRAY CURRENT coming on-board via the shore-power connection, is to take a DMM and to set it to DC AMPs, and then clamp your shore-power cable.  If everything is as it should be, there will be no net current flow - the AC current flow via the active wire is cancelled out via the AC current flowing via the neutral wire -  the resultant reading should be zero.  If however there is any DC current flow, this tells us that some current is 'leaking', presumably from the shore-power supply to the water, via our boat and its zincs, grounding plane, or other immersed metal bits.  To help locate the source, which may be a neighboring boat, simply clamp their shore-power cords in the same way ... non-intrusive testing like this may find the culprit.

In the same way, clamping our boat's green bonding wire at various locations with the DMM set to measure DC AMPs, can show stray current travelling via the bonding system, and may help locate the problem area.  Switching between DC and AC AMPs whilst clamping can also help identify the source.  Generally AC current (Hz on the DMM) indicates shore-power, but can also point to bad diodes in the alternator, dirty current from battery chargers, leaking AC appliances, or power cord leaks.

DC current flows point to the boat's DC system and equipment.  Do the same for any single or bundle of duplex wires - it should always read zero. If there is an current leak, then this will show up via an amp reading - searching on single circuits (pairs of wires) will help locate the source and possible problem areas.

Similarly, clamp the positive and negative leads from/to the battery bank.  These should read the same (but in a reverse sense).  If not, then it would be prudent to start to track down the difference, which is a potentially boat-destroying, or at least very expensive, current leak.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

David
(not yet an owner)
Re: bow thruster maintenance....

fredrolet@...
 

Hi Andrew

We have  the version with the 4 screws holding it to the iron flange. I've been fighting with this for a long time and it never moved a millimeter.push,pulled,torqued,heated....screamed at it too..that's why i'm at cutting the tube and sleeving it afterwards.Would you have some pics of the inside of the tube or the dismantled motor.
Thanks for your advice
Fred
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] bow thruster maintenance....

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Agree with Andrew,

Make sure you removed all the bolts.
I am sure you saw the illustration of the process: http://nikimat.com/bow_thruster_overhaul.html

Don't cut the tube.
Be patient and keep adding penetrating oil and gently use soft hammer to try to loose the components.

Then when you put it back together, make sure to put lots and lots of grease...

Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico



--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 9/1/16, Andrew Lamb andrew.lamb@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] bow thruster maintenance....
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: Thursday, September 1, 2016, 2:30 PM


 












Fred



If I am
understanding you correctly you are trying to withdraw the
carbon fibre tube of the bow thruster from the cast iron
casing of the bow thruster motor. Assuming you have removed
the two bolts that hold the tube in, then the
tube should withdraw from below, however if this has not
been done for a long time then a lot of patience and
penetrating oil will be required as the inside of the cast
iron casing will likely be rusted. There are quite a lot of
posts written about this problem
and how to approach it, on this forum. However, cutting the
tube is a very bad idea and very expensive and it may not be
possible to get a replacement unit. Patience and
perseverance is the key.



Andrew
Ronpische
SM472
On 1 Sep 2016, at 19:59, fredrolet@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:





 


Hello everybody
As anybody ever have a problem with the SM 2000 bow
thruster.
the elect. motor seems to be bonded to the
"carbon"shaft.
Amel sent us a tool,but still is not moving.Pushed
and pulled with  everything i got,still not
moving.
I am now to the point of cutting the tube,which i
can sleeve from the inside  and hope that it's not the
shaft.
does anybody have any kind of experience with
particular situation?
thanks all
Fred
KelpFiction #269



















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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] bow thruster maintenance....

Mark Erdos
 

Hi Fred,

 

Dumb question: do you have all four allen head bolts removed?

 

Most recently a post from Loca Lola II that had the same issue as yours: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/amelyachtowners/conversations/messages/28021

 

Patience and lots of lube is the key!

 

 

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising:  Tampa Bay for hurricane season

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 2:59 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] bow thruster maintenance....

 

 

Hello everybody

As anybody ever have a problem with the SM 2000 bow thruster.

the elect. motor seems to be bonded to the "carbon"shaft.

Amel sent us a tool,but still is not moving.Pushed and pulled with  everything i got,still not moving.

I am now to the point of cutting the tube,which i can sleeve from the inside  and hope that it's not the shaft.

does anybody have any kind of experience with particular situation?

thanks all

Fred

KelpFiction #269

 
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] bow thruster maintenance....

Andrew & Kate Lamb
 

Fred

If I am understanding you correctly you are trying to withdraw the carbon fibre tube of the bow thruster from the cast iron casing of the bow thruster motor. Assuming you have removed the two bolts that hold the tube in, then the tube should withdraw from below, however if this has not been done for a long time then a lot of patience and penetrating oil will be required as the inside of the cast iron casing will likely be rusted. There are quite a lot of posts written about this problem and how to approach it, on this forum. However, cutting the tube is a very bad idea and very expensive and it may not be possible to get a replacement unit. Patience and perseverance is the key.

Andrew
Ronpische
SM472


On 1 Sep 2016, at 19:59, fredrolet@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello everybody

As anybody ever have a problem with the SM 2000 bow thruster.

the elect. motor seems to be bonded to the "carbon"shaft.

Amel sent us a tool,but still is not moving.Pushed and pulled with  everything i got,still not moving.

I am now to the point of cutting the tube,which i can sleeve from the inside  and hope that it's not the shaft.

does anybody have any kind of experience with particular situation?

thanks all

Fred

KelpFiction #269
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] bow thruster maintenance....

Stephen Davis
 

Hi Fred,

Don't cut your shaft. If at the previous service not enough or any grease was put on the spline where it goes into the motor, it will rust, and be very difficult to separate. Spray lots of penetrating oil in the junction, use the Amel tool, and give the penetrating oil at least overnight to work. I eventually used a block of wood on top of the motor and a 4# hammer to break it loose on my friends boat. If you are patient and use lots of persuasion, you will get it loose within a day or two. 

When you put it back together, put lots of grease on the spline, service every 2 years, and you should not have the problem again. 

Regards,
Steve Davis
Aloha SM72
Grenada

On Sep 1, 2016, at 08:59, fredrolet@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello everybody

As anybody ever have a problem with the SM 2000 bow thruster.

the elect. motor seems to be bonded to the "carbon"shaft.

Amel sent us a tool,but still is not moving.Pushed and pulled with  everything i got,still not moving.

I am now to the point of cutting the tube,which i can sleeve from the inside  and hope that it's not the shaft.

does anybody have any kind of experience with particular situation?

thanks all

Fred

KelpFiction #269
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] bow thruster maintenance....

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Fred,

Yes, a number of owners have experienced this problem. I have helped 3 owners with this problem.  

It is generally caused by failing to perform periodic maintenance on the bow thruster, replacing seals, or by improper use of the bow thruster by leaving it down while sailing, or not using the pin to secure it in the up position. A small amount of saltwater passes by worn seals and causes the cast iron motor housing to oxidize (rust), which reduces the clearance between the motor housing and the tube, causing the motor housing to freeze to the tube.

The number one thing you need is patience. In addition you need the tool Amel sent you and lots of penetrating oil. Using the tool keep, maintain separating pressure on the the frozen joint. Light-medium tapping with a rubber mallet will help. This may take 2 or 3 days with constant separation pressure and tapping with a mallet.

Do Not use heat.

When you have it separated, be sure to inspect the bottom bearing on the motor. When you reassemble use a lot of waterproof grease at this junction.

I hope this helps you.

Bill
BeBe 387



On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 1:59 PM, fredrolet@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hello everybody

As anybody ever have a problem with the SM 2000 bow thruster.

the elect. motor seems to be bonded to the "carbon"shaft.

Amel sent us a tool,but still is not moving.Pushed and pulled with  everything i got,still not moving.

I am now to the point of cutting the tube,which i can sleeve from the inside  and hope that it's not the shaft.

does anybody have any kind of experience with particular situation?

thanks all

Fred

KelpFiction #269
bow thruster maintenance....

fredrolet@...
 

Hello everybody

As anybody ever have a problem with the SM 2000 bow thruster.

the elect. motor seems to be bonded to the "carbon"shaft.

Amel sent us a tool,but still is not moving.Pushed and pulled with  everything i got,still not moving.

I am now to the point of cutting the tube,which i can sleeve from the inside  and hope that it's not the shaft.

does anybody have any kind of experience with particular situation?

thanks all

Fred

KelpFiction #269
Re: Rigging tune on Maramu caused damage

James Alton
 

Peter,

  It appears that the compression loads are being borne by the aft cockpit bulkhead and mast box rather than being properly transferred down the compression posts.  As you point out, the compression posts look solid in the engine room but how about at the top where it interfaces with the box?  I am not familiar with the all of the construction but check carefully to see if there might be some bad coring at the bottom of the box that is compressing.   With this much movement you should be able to see something...  Let me know what you find.
I will be back to my boat in about a week and will see if I can figure out what might be going wrong on your boat.
   Personally I would get as much of the compression load off of the mizzen step as you can until repairs can be made.  The fibreglass will eventually take a set and at lest some of the deformation will become permanent.   The fractured fibreglass will need to be rebuilt to restore the lost strength.

Best,

James,

SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] alternator-to-battery charger

Andrew & Kate Lamb
 

Hi Enio

 

I think the only issue might be if the temperature sensors connect the engine casing to the battery –ve – I do not believe that this is the case but I will check with a test meter in a few days when I am at the boat. I believe these temperature sensors and isolated.

 

Andrew

 

Ronpische

SM 472

Canet-en-Roussillon

 

From: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...> on behalf of "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Reply-To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: Thursday, 1 September 2016 at 09:01
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] alternator-to-battery charger

 

 

Thank you all for the help. But I also have this doubt. The Sterling system has two temperature sensors for temperature of the battery and alternator. The manual says that these should be connected to the alternator and to the negative of battery. But these connection on negative are compatible with the electrical system of Amel??? Regards

eniorossi
SN122 earendil
Italy
Re: Southampton Boat Show

Ian Park
 

Bill
We are there on 21st September. If no-one else is able to help we could assist.

Ian and Linda

Ocean Hobo  SN96
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] alternator-to-battery charger

rossienio@...
 

Thank you all for the help. But I also have this doubt. The Sterling system has two temperature sensors for temperature of the battery and alternator. The manual says that these should be connected to the alternator and to the negative of battery. But these connection on negative are compatible with the electrical system of Amel??? Regards

eniorossi
SN122 earendil
Italy
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Line sizes for Amel Maramu

James Alton
 

Mark,

   Thank you for the files link.  I found some excellent data on the running rigging for the SM but did not see anything for the 46 Maramu.  Does anyone know if the line sizes are the same diameters for the two models?

Thanks,

James

SV Sueno,  Maramu #220

  

On Aug 31, 2016, at 1:56 PM, 'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


James,

 

I believe you can find what you are looking for in the Files section of this forum under Miscellaneous:

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/amelyachtowners/files/Miscellaneous/

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark< /o>

 

Skipper

Sailing Yacht: Cream Puff

 

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:37 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Line sizes for Amel Maramu

 

  

Hello,

 

I will be replacing most of the running rigging on my 1987 Maramu and was hoping to find out the sizes used on the boat.  My boat does have the in mast furling, so I will need new line for the outhauls for main and mizzen.  Any help on this would be appreciated since I do not currently have access to my boat and I would like to begin gathering the needed materials.  I will be making most of my purchases in Italy so will be limited to what is available there.

 

Thanks,

 

James Alton

SV "Sueno" Maramu #220 1987

Sardinia, Italy
Re: Rigging tune on Maramu caused damage

James Alton
 

Peter,
   I have inspected only two Maramus to date, one was a 1983 with the single spreader spar and then my own which is a 1987 with the double spreader Nirvana mast.   I don't think that the mast itself has any bearing on the problem.  The earlier model Maramu I noted had the tubular compression posts below the mizzen mast step angled  quite a bit, presumably to get them more out of the way.  On this boat, there was some cracking and damage around the mast step box.  On my own boat, the compression posts have very little angle to them, are a bit more in the way but  I did not find any damage at all.  An angle to the posts that is not cancelled out would generate a force in some direction fore/aft for example that would be proportional to the compression loading,  hence the tighter the rigging or the harder the boat is sailed, the more force generated.  I have heard that the angle of these posts were changed by Amel due to problems but do not know the history well so would prefer to not speculate further.  This might be a great question to pose to Oliver and  his vast knowledge base on Amels,  I for one would really enjoy hearing his input on this.

  With regards to the mast rake. As I recall from Olivers post on this, the check was to see if the mast was evenly fitted to the mast step.  In other words the proper rake with respect to the step is cut into the base of the spar so that any measurable gap aft should be the same forward with the spar is evenly fitting the mast step.   I was planning to use a feeler gauge to compare the fit fore/aft on my own boat.

Best,

James

SV Sueno,  1987 Maramu
Sardinia,  Italy

 
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] alternator-to-battery charger

Alan Leslie
 

Hi Enio,
I see Andrew gave you the link to his file, here's mine 


The difference between my system and the Sterling system is that the Sterling system retains the original regulator. My system requires the alternator brush leads to be led outside the alternator for connection to nthe regulator.
I any event what both systems do is to control the field current to the alternator which in turn controls the output current of the alternator.
In both systems the alternator output leads are directly connected to the battery bank, there is no part of the system with high currents flowing through it except for the heavy cables that go directly from the alternator to the battery bank.

Trust this helps
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437
39081 - 39100 of 68026