Date   

Re: Amel Mango Hull #14 - the engine room was not built to be watertight?!!?

Justin Maguire
 

You’ll likely have to fiberglass and plywood will those holes… 

Crazy that they carved it all up. :-(


On Sep 4, 2021, at 11:26, Daniel Alexander Thompson <Thompson.Xander@...> wrote:

Thank you very much, Bill, for all your words, here. Really appreciated.

I found another hole in the engine room forward bulkhead, right at the iron keel. Somebody created an opeing through to join the two halfs of the bilge together, so that he might install a bilge pump that pulls water from both halfs!!

It is really rather shocking what an owner is capable of. There are about seven breaches to my engine room.

I have now come to the understanding that all of these breaches are owner innitiated and that the engine room was indeed watertight at time of contruction.

The question i have is, is it possible to install a gasket on the Mango aft cabin door and make the aft cabin watertight?

Best regards


Amel Mango - Making the aft cabin watertight?

Daniel Alexander Thompson
 
Edited

Dear All

Is it possible to install gaskets and door braces on the Amel Mango aft cabin door to create a watertight aft cabin a la SM?

Is the rest of the bulkhead sealed off from water ingress?

Would the door take the weight of the water? Perhaps a new door?

Why didn't Amel create a watertight aft cabin at the time of construction?

Best regards


Bill Rouse's Service

Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Dear All

Bill Rouse was an absolute God send. He put so much time into helping me with the purchase of this Mango and really warned me about the likely pitfalls of assuming ownership of such a modified vessel. His service is really very affordable, too.

I really cannot thank him enough for all his help.

It is such a shame that he has decided to discontinue his 24/7 Amel service for owners of Amel vessels manufactured before 1988.

I'll have to buy a Mango from 1988. There are a few of them.

Thanks Bill. 


Re: Amel Mango Hull #14 - the engine room was not built to be watertight?!!?

Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Thank you very much, Bill, for all your words, here. Really appreciated.

I found another hole in the engine room forward bulkhead, right at the iron keel. Somebody created an opeing through to join the two halfs of the bilge together, so that he might install a bilge pump that pulls water from both halfs!!

It is really rather shocking what an owner is capable of. There are about seven breaches to my engine room.

I have now come to the understanding that all of these breaches are owner innitiated and that the engine room was indeed watertight at time of contruction.

The question i have is, is it possible to install a gasket on the Mango aft cabin door and make the aft cabin watertight?

Best regards


Lithium battery costs

Paul Harries
 

Can anyone put the a price on typical USA manufactured and professionally installed lithium system vs order from china diy system?
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Re: lithium battery warning

Bill Kinney
 

People frequently describe insurance companies as "risk adverse," and while that's kind of true, what they really are is adverse to unknown or uncertain risks that they can't plug into their financial models.

In the absence of guidance (so far) from the ABYC on marine installations of lithium systems the underwriters do not know what a safe lithium system looks like.  Certainly if you go to any of the cruiser's forums you can read about people buying the cheapest possible, unbranded, Chinese made, lithium cells and pairing them with a home brew BMS. Given the amount of energy involved, I KNOW some of these system are very dangerous, but like the insurance underwriters, I don't know which ones.

It's not even a comment on the relative risk of Lithium vs Lead Acid.  Certainly there are loss risk associated with a standard FLA battery installation.  The difference is the marine industry KNOWS what a dangerous FLA battery install looks like, and every good surveyor can spot one.  The inherent risks of a lead-acid battery system are also well know from many decades of experience and are baked into the cost calculation for an insurance policy.  Right now, the lithium world is very much the wild west, and there is no way for the insurance underwriter to sort out the good, from the bad and the ugly.  At least for the foreseeable future, they can just say "No, Thank you."

There is also rational thinking behind making exceptions for systems installed by boat manufacturers, or professional installers using USA built parts.  If there is a latent defect in the product or installation that causes a loss, there is somebody else to share the financial pain with.  If that Chinese BMS installed by the boat owner causes a boat fire because of a basic design flaw nobody will never collect anything from them.

It sounds like at least some of these underwriters are waiting for a standard to issue from the ABYC so they can have a way of selecting safer installations, and avoiding those that none of us would want on our boat!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Re: Amel Mango Hull #14 - the engine room was not built to be watertight?!!?

Bill Kinney
 

Daniel,

First, congratulations on your new-to-you Mango!  And double kudos for seeing this as an issue. I am by NO means an expert on Mangos.  I have never been on one, so feel free to dismiss everything I say, I will not be at all offended, but I can discuss this part of Amel's philosophy of boat building and design.

With a boat this old, you can never assume that everything you find is "as-built."

As far as I know Amel is unique among yacht builders because when they decided that a compartment of the boat SHOULD never have water in it, they treated it as if water could never get in.  In "traditional" yacht design it was considered essential to always supply a path of water to travel to the bilge sump.  This makes having watertight compartments extremely difficult, if not impossible.  Amel looked at this and said, "There is no way for other than trivial amounts of water (from condensation, for example) to get into the aft cabin, the saloon, or the forward cabin."  Based on this, they did not set up the boats to drain to the bilge from these areas. While there are are certainly downsides to this approach, there are a lot of things to recommend it too.  First and foremost is if you find water in any of these normally dry areas, you know there is a leak that needs immediate attention!  If it just drained to the bilge and was pumped overboard, you might never notice until it got REALLY bad.

I see two possibilities with the situation you describe.  Amel MIGHT not yet fully committed to this philosophy, and "cheated" on the Mango, OR a previous owner made a modification to the boat.  If I had to bet, I'd go with option 2.  If someone had a significant amount of water leak in past the rudder packing (for example), they might have thought it best to just cut a hole and have it drain, instead of fixing the problem.  In the Amels I have inspected, cutting holes in the watertight bulkheads by some one of the previous owners is among the most common things I see that show a lack of understanding of the "Amel Way."

I believe that Amel assumed that an inspection of all the bilges in the boat was a routine, at least daily if not every watch-change.  They assumed if water was found where it should not be, the problem was fixed at the source, not just the symptom.  This strikes me as just good seamanship, and common sense.

As always, my opinion is worth what you paid for it...

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Re: lithium battery warning

Mark McGovern
 

Justin,

They didn't give a rationale.  My guess is because there is no justifiable rationale just a knee-jerk reaction not a very well thought out policy to reduce their exposure.  Especially given that I can have all the lithium ion batteries that I want on my boat in my phones, tablets, electric bikes, electric scooters, power tools, etc. and they will happily insure me.  While I will stipulate that these are all much smaller batteries than a house bank, they are also made from much more flammable chemistries than LiFePO4 batteries.  Given how flammable fiberglass is, I'm pretty sure any one of those devices could set your boat on fire and sink it.  Certainly the batteries used in some of the cheap e-bikes you find on eBay and Amazon could do it.  They didn't ask me if I had any of those aboard.

Here's an interesting thread on just such an incident from earlier this year on Crusier's Forum.  Interestingly, the underwriter was, you guessed it, Markel.  And the insurance was the Jackline Policy from the Gowrie Group:  https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f166/explosions-fires-rescue-at-sea-229844.html


--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Belfast, ME USA


Amel Mango Hull #14 - the engine room was not built to be watertight?!!?

Daniel Alexander Thompson
 
Edited

(EDIT: i realise now that the engine room was built to be watertight and the prior owners have drilled all manner of holes in it)

Dear Group

I have just purchased Amel Mango hull #14. I took delivery of her about three days ago.

I have been rampaging through every nook and cranny of this boat for two days, and have found something which has left me aghast: the engine room was not built to be watertight. (EDIT: i realise now that the engine room was built to be watertight and the prior owners have drilled all manner of holes in it)

There is a small opening, just above the propshaft, in the aft cabin bulkhead. This opening (about 10 inches square) allows the aft cabin hull floor to drain directly into the engine room bilge. I find it very weird. Amel have gone to great length to vent the engine room far above the waterline. There is a watertight door and hatch. What on earth?

I want to make the engine room watertight. Does anybody know anybody who has done such a job on a Mango?

Best regards


Re: lithium battery warning

Justin Maguire
 

Wow…

But they’re somehow ok with new boats with factory installed lithium? 

What’s the rationale?


On Sep 3, 2021, at 09:39, Mark McGovern <mfmcgovern@...> wrote:

Gowrie Group told us the same thing earlier this year when we tried to get a quote from them.  If you have Lithium batteries installed on you boat and your boat value is greater than US$150,000, Markel will not underwrite an insurance policy.  The brand did not matter.  Self-installed or "professionally" installed did not matter.

I was very happy with the service that I received from Gary Golden at Manifest Marine:  Gary@... 

I guess you never really know how happy you are with your insurance policy until you have to use it.  Thankfully, I have not!

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Belfast, ME USA


Re: lithium battery warning

Mark McGovern
 

Gowrie Group told us the same thing earlier this year when we tried to get a quote from them.  If you have Lithium batteries installed on you boat and your boat value is greater than US$150,000, Markel will not underwrite an insurance policy.  The brand did not matter.  Self-installed or "professionally" installed did not matter.

I was very happy with the service that I received from Gary Golden at Manifest Marine:  Gary@... 

I guess you never really know how happy you are with your insurance policy until you have to use it.  Thankfully, I have not!

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Belfast, ME USA


Re: A55 Location of Mizzen Mast Drip Box

 

Joerg,

Thanks.

Bill

Bill, most of the overhead panels come off using the suction tool stowed over the galley sink.  Some of the soft ones you can lever off using this tool.    Some panels could There is also an overhead panel outside the head on port which hides the fuses for the mizzen furling.  May you could access the box from there?   


Joerg Esdorn

A55 #53 Kincsem

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 9:32 AM Joerg Esdorn via groups.io <jhe1313=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Bill, most of the overhead panels come off using the suction tool stowed over the galley sink.  Some of the soft ones you can lever off using this tool.    Some panels could There is also an overhead panel outside the head on port which hides the fuses for the mizzen furling.  May you could access the box from there?   


Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently in La Rochelle 


Re: A55 Location of Mizzen Mast Drip Box

Joerg Esdorn
 

Bill, most of the overhead panels come off using the suction tool stowed over the galley sink.  Some of the soft ones you can lever off using this tool.    Some panels could There is also an overhead panel outside the head on port which hides the fuses for the mizzen furling.  May you could access the box from there?   


Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently in La Rochelle 


Amel dishes

william reynolds
 


Hello

It seems like we have had a minor misunderstanding about my intentions with Amel cups and bowls.

My first inquiry was to seek a value for a set of Amel dishware. I had discovered the dishes for 6 in a used boat item shop. The seller did not know what to charge or exactly what was in the box. This was when I enquired if anyone knew the value of these dishes.  Albin in Martinique had no idea and he called Amel and they had discontinued the sets years ago and could offer no value. I inquired to the manufacturer and he hadn’t made dishes for Amel in over 10 years and he had no price information.

After dragging out all the items and putting them on the counter I realized the set was complete for 6 settings.

I pulled a number out of the air and we briefly negotiated and came to an acceptable price.

Attached is a photo the items.

 My wife now wants to keep the new set and find a new home for our present set. I really don’t want to make money on the older set and am perplexed on how to select a new owner. Again, money is not the object and I do want to have a bidding war.

I will keep everyone informed of our decision. Someone will end up owning our used set.

Cheers

Bill Reynolds

Cloudstreet


locked Re: Engine Room Exhaust Fan / Blower - lessons learnt #lessons

ESTELLER
 

ok Bill!



Envoyé depuis mon appareil Galaxy


-------- Message d'origine --------
De : CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
Date : 03/09/2021 14:17 (GMT+01:00)
À : "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification" <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Objet : [Special] Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Engine Room Exhaust Fan / Blower - lessons learnt #lessons

I was answering Jose Venegas, Ipanema SM 278. Jose was the original poster of the question regarding higher engine temperture at higher RPM.

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 7:02 AM andrew parker <apwarwick@...> wrote:
Hi Bill 
I received the email below but I think you meant to send it to Jose 


On 2 Sep 2021, at 23:43, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Jose,

80C or 176 is the normal operating temperature and if the cooling system is working correctly, the temperature should not increase more than 5-8% even at the highest RPM. When you measure 80C on the oil filter, you should measure 50C at the exhaust elbow immediately after the water inlet to the elbow. If it is higher, there is a problem that may be one of the following.

Possible Causes of Overheating:
1. Restricted seawater flow anywhere in the pathway beginning with the seawater entry into the sea chest to the seawater and exhaust exit through the hull. 
a. Sea Chest restriction
b. Hose restriction or kink
c. Restriction at the input to the in-line transmission oil cooler, if equipped
d. Failing seawater pump and/or failing seawater impeller
e. Restricted Exhaust Elbow
2. Restricted Coolant water flow
a. Failing coolant water pump
b. Failing Pressure Cap (should be replaced every 2 years)
c. Failing and/or clogged Heat Exchanger
3. Incorrect coolant ratio, but this is usually not a major contributor but will contribute somewhat.
4. Incorrect V-Belt tensioning with the V-Belt turning the coolant water pump
5. Failing Coolant Thermostat (not opening completely)
6. Other engine issues

Do not think that you can measure enough water flow by observing the seawater and exhaust exiting the boat. It will fool you.

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 1:40 PM Jose Venegas via groups.io <josegvenegas=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

David, you may have something here.  I have noticed randomly occurring increases of engine temperature up to 220F when running the engine above 2000 RPM.  However the temperature does not seem to drop after opening the engine-room  door  and have not been able to measure any temp in the engine higher the 176F with an infrared thermometer.  

Any thoughts?

Jose Venegas
Ipanema SM 278 

currently in Shelterbay PANAMA 


Re: Solar panels stainless steel mounted vs soft panels

Billy Newport
 

I had custom soliban flex panels made for my previous boat. The price per watt of the custom panels wasn't much different than stock sizes, just longer delivery time. I went overboard with this boat and had a separate mppt for each panel resulting in a lot of wiring, I'd do that different with strings if doing it again.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YZv6xncC821Rquqn8


Re: lithium battery warning

Billy Newport
 

I have a similar question in to the under writers for Markle right now. They are my insurers, I'm still using mastervolt gels on Coder. I'm asking them about upgrading to mastervolt lithiums.


locked Re: Engine Room Exhaust Fan / Blower - lessons learnt #lessons

 

I was answering Jose Venegas, Ipanema SM 278. Jose was the original poster of the question regarding higher engine temperture at higher RPM.

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 7:02 AM andrew parker <apwarwick@...> wrote:
Hi Bill 
I received the email below but I think you meant to send it to Jose 


On 2 Sep 2021, at 23:43, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Jose,

80C or 176 is the normal operating temperature and if the cooling system is working correctly, the temperature should not increase more than 5-8% even at the highest RPM. When you measure 80C on the oil filter, you should measure 50C at the exhaust elbow immediately after the water inlet to the elbow. If it is higher, there is a problem that may be one of the following.

Possible Causes of Overheating:
1. Restricted seawater flow anywhere in the pathway beginning with the seawater entry into the sea chest to the seawater and exhaust exit through the hull. 
a. Sea Chest restriction
b. Hose restriction or kink
c. Restriction at the input to the in-line transmission oil cooler, if equipped
d. Failing seawater pump and/or failing seawater impeller
e. Restricted Exhaust Elbow
2. Restricted Coolant water flow
a. Failing coolant water pump
b. Failing Pressure Cap (should be replaced every 2 years)
c. Failing and/or clogged Heat Exchanger
3. Incorrect coolant ratio, but this is usually not a major contributor but will contribute somewhat.
4. Incorrect V-Belt tensioning with the V-Belt turning the coolant water pump
5. Failing Coolant Thermostat (not opening completely)
6. Other engine issues

Do not think that you can measure enough water flow by observing the seawater and exhaust exiting the boat. It will fool you.

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 1:40 PM Jose Venegas via groups.io <josegvenegas=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

David, you may have something here.  I have noticed randomly occurring increases of engine temperature up to 220F when running the engine above 2000 RPM.  However the temperature does not seem to drop after opening the engine-room  door  and have not been able to measure any temp in the engine higher the 176F with an infrared thermometer.  

Any thoughts?

Jose Venegas
Ipanema SM 278 

currently in Shelterbay PANAMA 


locked Re: Engine Room Exhaust Fan / Blower - lessons learnt #lessons

andrew parker
 

Hi Bill 
I received the email below but I think you meant to send it to Jose 


On 2 Sep 2021, at 23:43, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Jose,

80C or 176 is the normal operating temperature and if the cooling system is working correctly, the temperature should not increase more than 5-8% even at the highest RPM. When you measure 80C on the oil filter, you should measure 50C at the exhaust elbow immediately after the water inlet to the elbow. If it is higher, there is a problem that may be one of the following.

Possible Causes of Overheating:
1. Restricted seawater flow anywhere in the pathway beginning with the seawater entry into the sea chest to the seawater and exhaust exit through the hull. 
a. Sea Chest restriction
b. Hose restriction or kink
c. Restriction at the input to the in-line transmission oil cooler, if equipped
d. Failing seawater pump and/or failing seawater impeller
e. Restricted Exhaust Elbow
2. Restricted Coolant water flow
a. Failing coolant water pump
b. Failing Pressure Cap (should be replaced every 2 years)
c. Failing and/or clogged Heat Exchanger
3. Incorrect coolant ratio, but this is usually not a major contributor but will contribute somewhat.
4. Incorrect V-Belt tensioning with the V-Belt turning the coolant water pump
5. Failing Coolant Thermostat (not opening completely)
6. Other engine issues

Do not think that you can measure enough water flow by observing the seawater and exhaust exiting the boat. It will fool you.

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 1:40 PM Jose Venegas via groups.io <josegvenegas=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

David, you may have something here.  I have noticed randomly occurring increases of engine temperature up to 220F when running the engine above 2000 RPM.  However the temperature does not seem to drop after opening the engine-room  door  and have not been able to measure any temp in the engine higher the 176F with an infrared thermometer.  

Any thoughts?

Jose Venegas
Ipanema SM 278 

currently in Shelterbay PANAMA 


Re: Bowman DC60-XCC Transmission Oil Cooler Failure; ZF Hurth ZF 25; Yanmar 4JH3-HTE #lessons

Lior Keydar
 

Dear Alain

Did you check if the Mota G058-235-1 / CC32 is the correct model for your A54. My A54 is #18 so I am almost sure that it is the same oil cooler and measurements. Shell I order the Bowman DC60-XAA or the MOTA G058-235-1 / CC32 ? I am a little bit confuse what is the correct product.

Thanks
Lior, SHARONA, A54 #18


On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 08:29 AM, Alain Durante wrote:
G058-235-1 / CC32

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