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Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

Scott SV Tengah
 

Thanks for the clarification. Still good to see Amel is correcting that issue, whoever may be at fault. 

You should follow Essence if you don't already. They crossed the Atlantic and they're in the process of changing their forestay, replacing a snapped boom vang and trying to fix their gennaker furler attachment that snapped. 

Not sure if you're out cruising right now, but before we left for our current circumnavigation 4 years ago, I reached out to fellow 54 owners to understand their equipment failures and what they had done to fix it. It resulted in uncomfortable discussions after just spending a decent amount of money buying my boat, but that temporary discomfort almost certainly saved me lots of time, money and grief in the years after that.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com
Re: anods unusual wearout

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Hi All,

Reading Greg's original message, it would be one year and 60 days for those anodes. Maybe still a stray current issue as it is more wear than he usually sees, but also where the boat is kept, shore power hook up, and many other things can influence anode wear. Yearly check and replacement is pretty normal.

Anodes should be replaced when they are half their original size.

Greg, can you clarify what you mean by dead 100% ? Were they completely gone so who knows how long they lasted? Do you have a photo?

Cheers,
Mike Longcor
SV Trilogy SM23
NZ

 

On Thu, May 5, 2022, 12:18 AM Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
Greg,

You have a serious stray current problem if your anodes are disappearing that quickly. This is very important to fix. Once your anodes are destroyed, the next thing to go will be other underwater metals. If there is enough current flow, very serious damage can occur very quickly (in weeks, not months!). Ordinary galvanic corrosion is a slow process.  Stray currents accelerate this by many orders of magnitude.

Somewhere on the boat you have an electrical connection between the battery and the bonding system that should not be there. Amel installed the "MAS" light to help find this problem.

The anode on the bowthruster that was not destroyed is not properly connected to the bonding system, but should be.  

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Simpson Bay, Sint Maarten

Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

Justin Maguire
 

I have spoken to Amel directly on this issue and this isn’t correct. 

The spreader tip cups were mis-sized from spar craft. The design spec allows for the mast to be supported at a full 90° (Laying in the water essentially) without failure.. the mis-sized cups would only work to 80°  - this de-masting enabled them to discover this manufacturing flaw and they are taking the right steps 100%. Bence sailed around the world with the wrong ones without failure. 

The mast failure was caused by the forestay snapping. The reason for it breaking isn’t known empirically as the cable was cut free from the boat at sea.. but the strong suspicion is halyard wrap as this has been an issue.

Also noteworthy is that this boat had a bad accidental jibe without a preventer on in the months prior.. so bad that it actually tore the traveler completely off the deck (imagine that!!) .. one wonders the additional stresses or potential weakening that might have also created for the mast. 

Cheers,
-Justin 



On May 4, 2022, at 11:47, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

I now understand that Amel is retrofitting the spreader tips on all A50s due to a design flaw. This same boat had an issue with their backstay and vang, too but I don't think those issues are widespread.

That implies that user error/halyard wrap was not the only issue with respect to the dismasting. Good on Amel for taking steps to correct this problem. I really hope, for all Amel owners, that this prevents any further A50 dismasting events.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Re: modified stern railing on 54 to carry line drums

Peter Forbes
 

Yup - stay away from Rallies.

We had a light aluminium Danforth stowed on the stbd stern rail just aft of our life raft.

Chain separate in the lazerette - there seems to be time to set up whilst working out where to moor.

Peter

Peter Forbes
Carango
Amel 54 #035
lymington UK
07836 209730

On 4 May 2022, at 20:02, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:



Peter,

 

Good to hear that you didn’t need it too often on your circumnavigation. Which stern anchor do you have?

 

We were in Atuona, Hiva Oa last week and got lucky – the supply ship wasn’t there and we were able to stern tie to the yellow mooring buoy. Good fun trying to drop the admiral off on the buoy with a cross breeze. 😊

 

We’re in Hakahau, Ua Pou now and a stern anchor is essential for the reasons you mentioned. As an aside, a group of Outremers with the Grand Large Rally showed up and didn’t put out stern anchors. They rotated 360 with the shifty winds but thankfully left early the next morning. Note to self: rally flag means “stay away!”

 

From: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Peter Forbes <ppsforbes@...>
Reply-To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:16 AM
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] modified stern railing on 54 to carry line drums

 

Scott,

 

We used our stern anchor in 2 places - the Galapagos and Hiva Oa in the Marquesas. Both due anchorages with restricted space and lots of boats which also had stern anchors. Other than that never used - but I guess if you need it once it is enough to carry one.

 

Peter Forbes

CARANGO 

Amel 54 035

Lymington UK

07836 209730

 

On 4 May 2022, at 18:48, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

Thanks Martin. We finally had to use a stern anchor after 4 years cruising. We deployed the port anchor (Delta, believe 31kg!) as a stern anchor using the dinghy. Not a pleasant experience and we have not yet tried to retrieve it. By the way, the rode is attached to the stern cleat but chafes on the stainless rub rail and on the hull as the boat moves around. Have you solved this?

I am considering getting a dedicated Fortress stern anchor, but wondering how much I will use it. Other than Patagonia, where do you anticipate needing it?

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com Marquesas 20220418-2.jpg
Re: modified stern railing on 54 to carry line drums

Scott SV Tengah
 

Peter,

 

Good to hear that you didn’t need it too often on your circumnavigation. Which stern anchor do you have?

 

We were in Atuona, Hiva Oa last week and got lucky – the supply ship wasn’t there and we were able to stern tie to the yellow mooring buoy. Good fun trying to drop the admiral off on the buoy with a cross breeze. 😊

 

We’re in Hakahau, Ua Pou now and a stern anchor is essential for the reasons you mentioned. As an aside, a group of Outremers with the Grand Large Rally showed up and didn’t put out stern anchors. They rotated 360 with the shifty winds but thankfully left early the next morning. Note to self: rally flag means “stay away!”

 

From: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Peter Forbes <ppsforbes@...>
Reply-To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:16 AM
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] modified stern railing on 54 to carry line drums

 

Scott,

 

We used our stern anchor in 2 places - the Galapagos and Hiva Oa in the Marquesas. Both due anchorages with restricted space and lots of boats which also had stern anchors. Other than that never used - but I guess if you need it once it is enough to carry one.

 

Peter Forbes

CARANGO 

Amel 54 035

Lymington UK

07836 209730

 

On 4 May 2022, at 18:48, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

Thanks Martin. We finally had to use a stern anchor after 4 years cruising. We deployed the port anchor (Delta, believe 31kg!) as a stern anchor using the dinghy. Not a pleasant experience and we have not yet tried to retrieve it. By the way, the rode is attached to the stern cleat but chafes on the stainless rub rail and on the hull as the boat moves around. Have you solved this?

I am considering getting a dedicated Fortress stern anchor, but wondering how much I will use it. Other than Patagonia, where do you anticipate needing it?

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Marquesas 20220418-2.jpg

Re: Amel lost its mast - D1?

Scott SV Tengah
 

I now understand that Amel is retrofitting the spreader tips on all A50s due to a design flaw. This same boat had an issue with their backstay and vang, too but I don't think those issues are widespread.

That implies that user error/halyard wrap was not the only issue with respect to the dismasting. Good on Amel for taking steps to correct this problem. I really hope, for all Amel owners, that this prevents any further A50 dismasting events.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com
Re: modified stern railing on 54 to carry line drums

Peter Forbes
 

Scott,

We used our stern anchor in 2 places - the Galapagos and Hiva Oa in the Marquesas. Both due anchorages with restricted space and lots of boats which also had stern anchors. Other than that never used - but I guess if you need it once it is enough to carry one.

Peter Forbes
CARANGO 
Amel 54 035
Lymington UK
07836 209730

On 4 May 2022, at 18:48, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

Thanks Martin. We finally had to use a stern anchor after 4 years cruising. We deployed the port anchor (Delta, believe 31kg!) as a stern anchor using the dinghy. Not a pleasant experience and we have not yet tried to retrieve it. By the way, the rode is attached to the stern cleat but chafes on the stainless rub rail and on the hull as the boat moves around. Have you solved this?

I am considering getting a dedicated Fortress stern anchor, but wondering how much I will use it. Other than Patagonia, where do you anticipate needing it?

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Re: modified stern railing on 54 to carry line drums

Scott SV Tengah
 

Thanks Martin. We finally had to use a stern anchor after 4 years cruising. We deployed the port anchor (Delta, believe 31kg!) as a stern anchor using the dinghy. Not a pleasant experience and we have not yet tried to retrieve it. By the way, the rode is attached to the stern cleat but chafes on the stainless rub rail and on the hull as the boat moves around. Have you solved this?

I am considering getting a dedicated Fortress stern anchor, but wondering how much I will use it. Other than Patagonia, where do you anticipate needing it?

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com
Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Scott SV Tengah
 

Hi Jeremy,

While I have not experienced high voltage disconnect because my system does not disconnect but rather turns off the charging devices, I have more than a handful of times experienced the BMS activating high voltage protection at high SOC when I'm charging with 200amps. One of the 6*4 = 24 cells goes over 3.7v and the BMS turns off the 220v chargers.

That said, with a Victron based system on an A54, an alternator protector is not necessary.

The A54 has a Mastervolt 110A/24v alternator which has a brown wire called "reg-on" which allows you to turn off the alternator safely. In fact, the MV manual states that you can wire a simple on/off switch to this wire to turn off the alternator when you need additional engine power.

Using this and a few relays, it is setup so if the BMS detects high cell voltage (not just bank voltage!) or high cell temperature, it disconnects the Mastervolt reg-on wire and turns off the alternator in a manner approved by Mastervolt. This is not something that is obvious, but I discovered it after reading the MV alternator manual, discussing with Victron and MV techs and crucially, getting the help of a proper electrical engineer and fellow A54 owner.

If I had a drop in system, I would seek to understand how high cell voltage/temperature is dealt with, otherwise, you might fry your alternator. Further, the high and persistent charging current demands of lithium can melt alternators, but that's another discussion.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com
Re: anods unusual wearout

Bill Kinney
 

Greg,

You have a serious stray current problem if your anodes are disappearing that quickly. This is very important to fix. Once your anodes are destroyed, the next thing to go will be other underwater metals. If there is enough current flow, very serious damage can occur very quickly (in weeks, not months!). Ordinary galvanic corrosion is a slow process.  Stray currents accelerate this by many orders of magnitude.

Somewhere on the boat you have an electrical connection between the battery and the bonding system that should not be there. Amel installed the "MAS" light to help find this problem.

The anode on the bowthruster that was not destroyed is not properly connected to the bonding system, but should be.  

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Simpson Bay, Sint Maarten
Re: C Drive service in Grenada

CW Bill Rouse
 

David,

I know you and your abilities. Even though you have not done this, you are the most qualified in Grenada. Also, you have the written instructions.

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 10:22 PM Porter McRoberts via groups.io <portermcroberts=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Why not sail up to Martinique and do it at the Amel base there?  Once you’ve seen it done, it’s not difficult at all. Just several critical and important steps, all detailed in the forum here. 


Porter McRoberts 
S/V IBIS A54-152
WhatsApp:+1 754 265 2206

On May 4, 2022, at 8:53 AM, David Odell <david.wanderer@...> wrote:



I understand that the C Drive service is very specialized and that an owner should pre-qualify a mechanic / technician.  


We haul Dragonfly next week for hurricane season at Clark’s Court Boatyard on the south coast of Grenada. Can anyone provide a strong recommendation for a qualified tech with experience successfully servicing the C drive?

Everything is functioning properly and the ER reservoir is clear, so this is preventive maintenance. Volvo has 1,028 hours but prior owner did not keep maintenance log so I have no insight if he kept to the every 3 year servicing schedule. 


Thanks!

David

David Odell
A54 #153 Dragonfly
Prickly Bay, Grenada
Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Jérémy Lajotte
 

The alternator disconnection is very easy and simple to address with a Sterling Alternator protector (55€) :

Protect your alternator with the Pro Protect A alternator protection switch from STERLING. The switch is activated at the exact moment when there are no more electrical consumers, but the alternator is still producing electricity. The Pro Protect A acts as the smallest consumer and consumes the excess electricity. This is of particular importance if the battery main switch is accidentally disconnected when the engine is running. In this case, the alternator has no further electrical consumers and, in the worst case, it can destroy the diodes and thus the entire alternator.
During normal operation, the protection device does not consume any power.
    https://www.svb24.com/en/sterling-pro-protect-a-alternator-protection-switch.html


In normal condition the "BMS disconnect" should never ever happen. It's only a last resort operation to protect the battery when something goes wrong ; just like a fuse... it should never blow, and when it does it indicates something wrong in the system that should be addressed. Every charging device should charge using a LiFePo4 profile. If the BMS detect a wrong charging voltage it should first try to shutdown the charging devices (with a Quattro is can talk to it with the CAN Bus for example , for an external regulator it could be a simple relay to tell the regulator to stop charging). Only if everything fails and the charging voltage is still incorrect, the BMS will disconnect the battery to protect it. If this happen, it indicates something wrong that should be corrected in the system.


For my Victron based system, if the BMS decided to disconnect, it ONLY disconnects the load side. The battery bank is still connected to the alternator and the energy continues to flow. If the BMS decides that the batteries can't take any more charge, it doesn't disconnect, it turns off the charging systems.
I don't know about Victron BMS, but I guess there's still a "High Voltage Cuteoff" on the BMS. In the scenario where one of your charge system is malfunctioning and for example send 30V to the battery, the BMS should protect the battery and disconnect the charge. In that particular scenario, it's good to have an alternator protection.

Jérémy
SM#121
Le 03/05/2022 à 21:44, Scott SV Tengah a écrit :
That's a very valid concern and one that needs to be addressed in system design.

And it has been addressed:

(1) Dean does it through having a secondary, always connected small AGM bank. 

(2) For my Victron based system, if the BMS decided to disconnect, it ONLY disconnects the load side. The battery bank is still connected to the alternator and the energy continues to flow. If the BMS decides that the batteries can't take any more charge, it doesn't disconnect, it turns off the charging systems. 

I don't know enough about Mastervolt, but I'm guessing it's addressed. I cannot speak to other systems.

With lithium, I strongly believe that people need to understand how their systems work. Same with their Genoa furler that has circuit breakers/thermal switches. Same with every system on our boats.

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 02:44 PM, Mark Erdos wrote:

 

If a high output alternator is suddenly disconnected from the battery bank with the engine running, that electric energy has to go somewhere. Watch how quickly a fire ensues. I would imagine, if one is using the bow thruster the engine is most certainly running.

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

On 5/2/2022 10:05 PM, Alan Leslie wrote:
Thanks Scott...great post....

Everyone has different requirements (and ability to pay!) ... so everything relevant needs to be considered....those Victron batteries are VERY expensive !
n=1 studies are often not useful ...on my previous boat I had AGMs that lasted 10 years, I have an Amel friend who has his set of AGMs now for 9 years, Ours are 6 years and still performing.....because they have been well managed.
But I don't think that's the point.

My concerns, still, are around this sudden disconnect business, and now, about how you deal with periods away from the boat.

I can see now that it is possible to have very high short duration discharges from LiFePO4 batteries, as needed for the bowthruster, but we had better be sure we have enough peak A availability so that the battery BMS doesn't suddenly decide its had enough and disconnect at the worst possible moment.

When Covid struck, we had left the boat in a marina connected to shore power with a battery charger on and the frig and freezer running, fully expecting to be back in a few weeks.
A year later I came back and everything was OK.

How would that work with Lithium?

I understand they don't like to be kept charged and actually prefer to be disconnected -  so would it make sense then to have say one or two AGM batteries (with their own charger) just to keep the boat going and disconnect the Lithium when parked for an indeterminate time? 

Another option might be, for us, we have a 100A Victron Skylla battery charger which has a Power Supply mode - maybe disconnect the battery bank and put the Skylla in Power Supply mode when leaving the boat??

I really like the potential that LiFePO4 batteries offer but my concerns, as everyone now knows, are wide ranging....and developing daily....but not necessarily in the negative!

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

 --
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

--
SM #121 Nausicaä
Nantes, France
Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Stefan Jeukendrup
 

Yes, Frans Veltman had started work on BMS again.

Have you seen this one:

https://www.taoperf.com/category/tao-bms/

Active balancers, very flexible and I really like their SOC cycle management.


Stefan Jeukendrup
sv Malaka Queen
SM2k #348 @Newry, Northern Ireland



Op 4 mei 2022 03:55 schreef "Nick Newington via groups.io" <ngtnewington@...>:

https://www.zwerfcat.nl/en/lithium-hybrid.html
Check this article .  

Nick
S/Y Amelia
AML54-019
Heading to Fethiye bay Turkey


On 3 May 2022, at 22:44, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

That's a very valid concern and one that needs to be addressed in system design.

And it has been addressed:

(1) Dean does it through having a secondary, always connected small AGM bank. 

(2) For my Victron based system, if the BMS decided to disconnect, it ONLY disconnects the load side. The battery bank is still connected to the alternator and the energy continues to flow. If the BMS decides that the batteries can't take any more charge, it doesn't disconnect, it turns off the charging systems. 

I don't know enough about Mastervolt, but I'm guessing it's addressed. I cannot speak to other systems.

With lithium, I strongly believe that people need to understand how their systems work. Same with their Genoa furler that has circuit breakers/thermal switches. Same with every system on our boats.

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 02:44 PM, Mark Erdos wrote:

 

If a high output alternator is suddenly disconnected from the battery bank with the engine running, that electric energy has to go somewhere. Watch how quickly a fire ensues. I would imagine, if one is using the bow thruster the engine is most certainly running.

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

On 5/2/2022 10:05 PM, Alan Leslie wrote:
Thanks Scott...great post....

Everyone has different requirements (and ability to pay!) ... so everything relevant needs to be considered....those Victron batteries are VERY expensive !
n=1 studies are often not useful ...on my previous boat I had AGMs that lasted 10 years, I have an Amel friend who has his set of AGMs now for 9 years, Ours are 6 years and still performing.....because they have been well managed.
But I don't think that's the point.

My concerns, still, are around this sudden disconnect business, and now, about how you deal with periods away from the boat.

I can see now that it is possible to have very high short duration discharges from LiFePO4 batteries, as needed for the bowthruster, but we had better be sure we have enough peak A availability so that the battery BMS doesn't suddenly decide its had enough and disconnect at the worst possible moment.

When Covid struck, we had left the boat in a marina connected to shore power with a battery charger on and the frig and freezer running, fully expecting to be back in a few weeks.
A year later I came back and everything was OK.

How would that work with Lithium?

I understand they don't like to be kept charged and actually prefer to be disconnected -  so would it make sense then to have say one or two AGM batteries (with their own charger) just to keep the boat going and disconnect the Lithium when parked for an indeterminate time? 

Another option might be, for us, we have a 100A Victron Skylla battery charger which has a Power Supply mode - maybe disconnect the battery bank and put the Skylla in Power Supply mode when leaving the boat??

I really like the potential that LiFePO4 batteries offer but my concerns, as everyone now knows, are wide ranging....and developing daily....but not necessarily in the negative!

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

 --
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Alan Leslie
 

Thanks Mark,

I've had a thought about this disconnect business and the potential to damage the alternator.....

What about using the 24V alternator to charge the start battery by using a 24-12V  DC-DC charger (Victron Orion)?
Put a relay between the alternator and the Orion so its only connected when the alternator is charging (prevents the house bank feeding into the start battery)
That way, if the Lithium batteries did disconnect, for whatever reason, while you were charging with the alternator, there would still be the load of the start battery to keep the alternator happy.

Thinking still ......

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437
Re: C Drive service in Grenada

Porter McRoberts
 

Why not sail up to Martinique and do it at the Amel base there?  Once you’ve seen it done, it’s not difficult at all. Just several critical and important steps, all detailed in the forum here. 


Porter McRoberts 
S/V IBIS A54-152
WhatsApp:+1 754 265 2206
Www.fouribis.net

On May 4, 2022, at 8:53 AM, David Odell <david.wanderer@...> wrote:



I understand that the C Drive service is very specialized and that an owner should pre-qualify a mechanic / technician.  


We haul Dragonfly next week for hurricane season at Clark’s Court Boatyard on the south coast of Grenada. Can anyone provide a strong recommendation for a qualified tech with experience successfully servicing the C drive?

Everything is functioning properly and the ER reservoir is clear, so this is preventive maintenance. Volvo has 1,028 hours but prior owner did not keep maintenance log so I have no insight if he kept to the every 3 year servicing schedule. 


Thanks!

David

David Odell
A54 #153 Dragonfly
Prickly Bay, Grenada
Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Nick Newington
 

https://www.zwerfcat.nl/en/lithium-hybrid.html
Check this article .  

Nick
S/Y Amelia
AML54-019
Heading to Fethiye bay Turkey


On 3 May 2022, at 22:44, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

That's a very valid concern and one that needs to be addressed in system design.

And it has been addressed:

(1) Dean does it through having a secondary, always connected small AGM bank. 

(2) For my Victron based system, if the BMS decided to disconnect, it ONLY disconnects the load side. The battery bank is still connected to the alternator and the energy continues to flow. If the BMS decides that the batteries can't take any more charge, it doesn't disconnect, it turns off the charging systems. 

I don't know enough about Mastervolt, but I'm guessing it's addressed. I cannot speak to other systems.

With lithium, I strongly believe that people need to understand how their systems work. Same with their Genoa furler that has circuit breakers/thermal switches. Same with every system on our boats.

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 02:44 PM, Mark Erdos wrote:

 

If a high output alternator is suddenly disconnected from the battery bank with the engine running, that electric energy has to go somewhere. Watch how quickly a fire ensues. I would imagine, if one is using the bow thruster the engine is most certainly running.

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

On 5/2/2022 10:05 PM, Alan Leslie wrote:
Thanks Scott...great post....

Everyone has different requirements (and ability to pay!) ... so everything relevant needs to be considered....those Victron batteries are VERY expensive !
n=1 studies are often not useful ...on my previous boat I had AGMs that lasted 10 years, I have an Amel friend who has his set of AGMs now for 9 years, Ours are 6 years and still performing.....because they have been well managed.
But I don't think that's the point.

My concerns, still, are around this sudden disconnect business, and now, about how you deal with periods away from the boat.

I can see now that it is possible to have very high short duration discharges from LiFePO4 batteries, as needed for the bowthruster, but we had better be sure we have enough peak A availability so that the battery BMS doesn't suddenly decide its had enough and disconnect at the worst possible moment.

When Covid struck, we had left the boat in a marina connected to shore power with a battery charger on and the frig and freezer running, fully expecting to be back in a few weeks.
A year later I came back and everything was OK.

How would that work with Lithium?

I understand they don't like to be kept charged and actually prefer to be disconnected -  so would it make sense then to have say one or two AGM batteries (with their own charger) just to keep the boat going and disconnect the Lithium when parked for an indeterminate time? 

Another option might be, for us, we have a 100A Victron Skylla battery charger which has a Power Supply mode - maybe disconnect the battery bank and put the Skylla in Power Supply mode when leaving the boat??

I really like the potential that LiFePO4 batteries offer but my concerns, as everyone now knows, are wide ranging....and developing daily....but not necessarily in the negative!

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

 --
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

C Drive service in Grenada

David Odell
 

I understand that the C Drive service is very specialized and that an owner should pre-qualify a mechanic / technician.  


We haul Dragonfly next week for hurricane season at Clark’s Court Boatyard on the south coast of Grenada. Can anyone provide a strong recommendation for a qualified tech with experience successfully servicing the C drive?

Everything is functioning properly and the ER reservoir is clear, so this is preventive maintenance. Volvo has 1,028 hours but prior owner did not keep maintenance log so I have no insight if he kept to the every 3 year servicing schedule. 


Thanks!

David

David Odell
A54 #153 Dragonfly
Prickly Bay, Grenada
Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Scott SV Tengah
 

That's a very valid concern and one that needs to be addressed in system design.

And it has been addressed:

(1) Dean does it through having a secondary, always connected small AGM bank. 

(2) For my Victron based system, if the BMS decided to disconnect, it ONLY disconnects the load side. The battery bank is still connected to the alternator and the energy continues to flow. If the BMS decides that the batteries can't take any more charge, it doesn't disconnect, it turns off the charging systems. 

I don't know enough about Mastervolt, but I'm guessing it's addressed. I cannot speak to other systems.

With lithium, I strongly believe that people need to understand how their systems work. Same with their Genoa furler that has circuit breakers/thermal switches. Same with every system on our boats.


On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 02:44 PM, Mark Erdos wrote:

 

If a high output alternator is suddenly disconnected from the battery bank with the engine running, that electric energy has to go somewhere. Watch how quickly a fire ensues. I would imagine, if one is using the bow thruster the engine is most certainly running.

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

On 5/2/2022 10:05 PM, Alan Leslie wrote:
Thanks Scott...great post....

Everyone has different requirements (and ability to pay!) ... so everything relevant needs to be considered....those Victron batteries are VERY expensive !
n=1 studies are often not useful ...on my previous boat I had AGMs that lasted 10 years, I have an Amel friend who has his set of AGMs now for 9 years, Ours are 6 years and still performing.....because they have been well managed.
But I don't think that's the point.

My concerns, still, are around this sudden disconnect business, and now, about how you deal with periods away from the boat.

I can see now that it is possible to have very high short duration discharges from LiFePO4 batteries, as needed for the bowthruster, but we had better be sure we have enough peak A availability so that the battery BMS doesn't suddenly decide its had enough and disconnect at the worst possible moment.

When Covid struck, we had left the boat in a marina connected to shore power with a battery charger on and the frig and freezer running, fully expecting to be back in a few weeks.
A year later I came back and everything was OK.

How would that work with Lithium?

I understand they don't like to be kept charged and actually prefer to be disconnected -  so would it make sense then to have say one or two AGM batteries (with their own charger) just to keep the boat going and disconnect the Lithium when parked for an indeterminate time? 

Another option might be, for us, we have a 100A Victron Skylla battery charger which has a Power Supply mode - maybe disconnect the battery bank and put the Skylla in Power Supply mode when leaving the boat??

I really like the potential that LiFePO4 batteries offer but my concerns, as everyone now knows, are wide ranging....and developing daily....but not necessarily in the negative!

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

 --
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com
Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Mark Erdos
 


 

We are obviously not all wired the same (pun intended). I see discussions regarding Lithium technology on many forums and while I agree it's a step in the right direction, it is still not for me, yet.

Alan, I 100% agree with your BMS shutdown concern. For those who recall having rotary switches for multiple battery banks, you probably remember the warning printed in bold type on the switch: Do not turn off with engine running. If a high output alternator is suddenly disconnected from the battery bank with the engine running, that electric energy has to go somewhere. Watch how quickly a fire ensues. I would imagine, if one is using the bow thruster the engine is most certainly running.

Speaking of rotary and regarding Scott's phone analogy, I am older enough to remember the days when phones were for calling people and were as such crystal clear. Anyone else remember AT&T's pin drop campaign? The phrase "can you hear me now" was never uttered. While phones have now advanced into pocket computers, I, for one, miss the days of a clear voice at the other end. Perhaps the next generation of phones will fix this. And, perhaps the next generation of batteries will fix the issues with lithium today.

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us


On 5/2/2022 10:05 PM, Alan Leslie wrote:

Thanks Scott...great post....

Everyone has different requirements (and ability to pay!) ... so everything relevant needs to be considered....those Victron batteries are VERY expensive !
n=1 studies are often not useful ...on my previous boat I had AGMs that lasted 10 years, I have an Amel friend who has his set of AGMs now for 9 years, Ours are 6 years and still performing.....because they have been well managed.
But I don't think that's the point.

My concerns, still, are around this sudden disconnect business, and now, about how you deal with periods away from the boat.

I can see now that it is possible to have very high short duration discharges from LiFePO4 batteries, as needed for the bowthruster, but we had better be sure we have enough peak A availability so that the battery BMS doesn't suddenly decide its had enough and disconnect at the worst possible moment.

When Covid struck, we had left the boat in a marina connected to shore power with a battery charger on and the frig and freezer running, fully expecting to be back in a few weeks.
A year later I came back and everything was OK.

How would that work with Lithium?

I understand they don't like to be kept charged and actually prefer to be disconnected -  so would it make sense then to have say one or two AGM batteries (with their own charger) just to keep the boat going and disconnect the Lithium when parked for an indeterminate time? 

Another option might be, for us, we have a 100A Victron Skylla battery charger which has a Power Supply mode - maybe disconnect the battery bank and put the Skylla in Power Supply mode when leaving the boat??

I really like the potential that LiFePO4 batteries offer but my concerns, as everyone now knows, are wide ranging....and developing daily....but not necessarily in the negative!

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

Re: drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

Scott SV Tengah
 

Alan, I appreciate the desire to think through potential problems. A fellow 54 owner recently remarked to me, “Great, I didn’t think of that, now you just gave me another hypothetical to worry about!!”

 

Victron is not cheap, but from what I can tell, it’s cheaper than Mastervolt, if that’s a consolation. 😊 I do think that the Chinese battery (hell, they’re all Chinese – Victron and I believe MV are Winston batteries) systems can be done safely, but you’ll just have more thinking to do. I did notice that they generally have much lower continuous draw ratings than the Victron/MV batteries, though. So you may have to get a bigger bank just to power the bowthruster? Anyways, I had enough stuff to think about, so I opted to allow the Dutch engineers to figure some of it out for me and have them on the hook with respect to warranty.

 

When I was forced to leave the boat on anchor for 4 months in the South Pacific with less than a week notice, I devised a system whereby our BMV-712 battery monitor would energize it’s bi-stable relay between 65-100%, which would then turn on the Quattro 5kw inverter. Connected to the inverter was a 220v dehumidifier, which draws about 200w and as a nice side effect, keeps the boat bone dry. The boat watcher, who I didn’t let touch my battery system, remarked that it was the driest boat he’d seen and he was watching 5 Amels when I left. Note that I virtually never plug in for extended periods. In my case, the 960w solar produces anywhere from 200-275AH per day. The dehumidifier, with the 45w draw of the inverter, plus the fridge that I left on, can, if necessary, consume all of that daily produced power to prevent the battery from creeping up to 100%.

 

You are correct that they don’t like to be kept charged, which to be more specific, means kept at 100%.

 

When the boat watcher came to check the boat, I always had him report battery percentage. As expected, it stayed between 65-100%. At that level of cycling and DOD, the batteries will last longer than I will! The nightmare scenario is that we spring a saltwater leak despite closing the main sea chest. The bilge pump would run until it drained the battery or more likely, until the pump itself died. Plugging in wouldn’t solve the latter problem.

 

If I didn’t have enough solar or simply want to plug in, I could use the output of the BMV-712 relay to trigger the charging function of the Quattro to keep the battery level within a specified range. Or, as you suggested, you could disconnect the batteries completely and use a Skylla in power supply mode. But honestly, I trust my battery and solar system more than I trust shore power in remote places.

 

Another thing you need to keep in mind when comparing longevity is that 10 years of AGM living is not the same as 10 years of lithium living. You state that you don’t draw lower than 85% SOC on your AGM. I can hit that with one scuba tank refill.  I’m overly conservative and don’t draw below 35% SOC  on my lithium. We run aircon/scuba compressor/water heater/washer/dishwasher/breadmaker/microwave/induction/etc. without running the generator.  We treat the batteries like a water tank. If I fill 3 scuba tanks, I’ll just do it on battery (2.2kw / 85amp draw) and then recharge them at 200amps, reducing genset runtime and increasing load, which are both good for the genset. Further our furling motors and bowthruster are far more powerful without the voltage drop and Jamie, ex-Phantom, said he lost a few fridge compressors when his Firefly batteries suffered massive voltage drops overnight.

 

I believe Dan of SV Bebe calculated generator usage to actually cost around $12 per hour when you consider not only diesel, but maintenance costs. Keep in mind that lithium charges more efficiently, can take full current until nearly full and is more efficient during the discharge process. Your solar array suddenly got bigger and your generator needs to runs less at a good load level. Add in the noise and the additional thing to deal with and I firmly believe that for most Amel owners, it’s simply cheaper to go lithium when you account for all costs, even if you ignore the operational benefits and also value your time at zero.

 

 

 

From: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...>
Reply-To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Monday, May 2, 2022 at 10:35 PM
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] drop LiFePo4 batteries vs LiFePo4 cells in a bundled pack #solution

 

Thanks Scott...great post....

Everyone has different requirements (and ability to pay!) ... so everything relevant needs to be considered....those Victron batteries are VERY expensive !
n=1 studies are often not useful ...on my previous boat I had AGMs that lasted 10 years, I have an Amel friend who has his set of AGMs now for 9 years, Ours are 6 years and still performing.....because they have been well managed.
But I don't think that's the point.

My concerns, still, are around this sudden disconnect business, and now, about how you deal with periods away from the boat.

I can see now that it is possible to have very high short duration discharges from LiFePO4 batteries, as needed for the bowthruster, but we had better be sure we have enough peak A availability so that the battery BMS doesn't suddenly decide its had enough and disconnect at the worst possible moment.

When Covid struck, we had left the boat in a marina connected to shore power with a battery charger on and the frig and freezer running, fully expecting to be back in a few weeks.
A year later I came back and everything was OK.

How would that work with Lithium?

I understand they don't like to be kept charged and actually prefer to be disconnected -  so would it make sense then to have say one or two AGM batteries (with their own charger) just to keep the boat going and disconnect the Lithium when parked for an indeterminate time? 

Another option might be, for us, we have a 100A Victron Skylla battery charger which has a Power Supply mode - maybe disconnect the battery bank and put the Skylla in Power Supply mode when leaving the boat??

I really like the potential that LiFePO4 batteries offer but my concerns, as everyone now knows, are wide ranging....and developing daily....but not necessarily in the negative!

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com
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