Date   

Re: GALLEY FAUCET REPLACEMENT OLDER MARAMU

Gregory Shea
 

Hello, 
This goes back to a 2019 post, see below and I’m hoping that sharki.cigale is still on the forum.
I bought the faucet referenced below at Leroy Merlin and have been anxiously waiting an opportunity to instal it. 
It seemed quite easy but I have run into a problem. The threads on the new Mitigeur are longer than the threads on the old one so that the discharge from the new one does not align with the vertical pipe that delivers the mixed water into the sink.
When you did your installation did you also change the hot and cold inbound plumbing coming through the plywood trim?
I bought the other adapters you mentioned and I’m wondering if they will correct the problem, although they don't seem compatible with the plumbing behind the trim?

Gregory Shea
Cap des Iles, Sharki 133
Kilada

On Feb 19, 2019, at 9:25 AM, sharki.cigale via Groups.Io <sharki.cigale@...> wrote:


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

rossirossix4
 

Almost always we are sailing as a "Ma and Pa" team and auto steering is pretty high on our list.  We are most concerned about lightning.  A lightning strike could easily take out both of 2 installed units even if one unit is turned off.
For that reason while we carry spares for each AP component, none of the spares are installed.  So we carry matching components for our autopilot--control head, fluxgate compass, course computer, rudder feedback and linear drive (we do not carry a backup for our switchable rotary drive). Each is sealed in ziplock storage bag with dessicant and the linear drive is well wrapped.  They are stored in lockers away from other wires and rigging attachments.  Determining which component has failed is not hard to do and swapping components is not difficult.  It is helpful to label each wire, especially to the course computer/power source.  We have not done it but the best thing might be to replace all the replacement components and store your existing components.  That way you know the replacements work and you have experience installing them and doing any initiation.  We also have some provisions for power if the batteries get zapped but I won't go into those details,
Bob and Suzanne, KAIMI SM429


Re: mounting 12" chart plotter

Arlo Bess
 

I took a different route and happy i did. I installed a 7 inch zeus in a navpod at the helm offcenter to port and installed a 12" zeus in a navpod on the starboard side of the companionway. It preserves the use of the existing gauges and gets larger plotter and radar screens so its not blocking my view forward. I use the smaller display for sailsteer, and backup chart views and autopilot. Imho a perfect setup. Will post pics in a seperate post


Re: No steering parts, rack & pinion, cables, from Amel

Arlo Bess
 

I recently installed a B&G ram 2 and rhe associated autopilot on my Mango. It has run flawlessly during my Bahamas cruise this past season. I have not decided if i want to secure the ram with a seperate bolt to the quadrant or continue using the cable steering bolt.....but it is mounted to the aft stringer with a 6" L beam that is 1/4 thick. So 


Re: Main Furling unit

 

Did you try SAV@...

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 11:36 AM Steve Bell s/y Dusk SM378 via groups.io <stevect=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi All,
          Our main furling gearbox is completed seized upon stripping the unit we found the taper bearing has completely disintegrated despite regular greasing and thus the gearbox needs an overhaul.

I am in the process of trying to remove and replace the bearings and seals, but I would like to put a new one on and keep the  old one as spare, does anyone know if these are standard furling units  and if so where can I purchase one or are these specific to Amel?.

Also can anyone please confirm bearing part numbers .


Regards

Steve

s/v Dusk

SM#378


Main Furling unit

Steve Bell s/y Dusk SM378
 

Hi All,
          Our main furling gearbox is completed seized upon stripping the unit we found the taper bearing has completely disintegrated despite regular greasing and thus the gearbox needs an overhaul.

I am in the process of trying to remove and replace the bearings and seals, but I would like to put a new one on and keep the  old one as spare, does anyone know if these are standard furling units  and if so where can I purchase one or are these specific to Amel?.

Also can anyone please confirm bearing part numbers .


Regards

Steve

s/v Dusk

SM#378


Re: Again a question about yacht insurance

Michael & Robyn
 

Hi Arno,

we went to https://www.hkva.de/en/#
They use the AXA group as underwriter.

kind regards
Michael & Robyn
RIPPLE SM2k#417

Currently in Brunswick GA USA


Re: Bow thruster does not work in one direction

Doug Smith
 

Randall, If you are not getting a Starboard movement with the jumper, than the problem is Very likely in the solenoid you have pictured.  By using the jumper you are bypassing the delay circuit that is inside the control module and most of the other variables.  As Mohammad found, it is likely corrosion of the contacts inside the solenoid.  And as Bill preaches, liberal corrosion X serves as a good dielectric coating to help prevent corrosion and ensure good contacts.

 

Doug Smith

S/V Aventura, Amel 54-113

White Point Marina, Kinsale VA USA

 

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Randall Walker <sailingalbedo@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Friday, July 9, 2021 at 10:32 AM
To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bow thruster does not work in one direction

 

Hello Mohammed, Doug, Thomas and Bill

 

I have just began the task of fixing my one way bow thruster, port works fine. The topic has come up many times and I had just filed the knowledge, knowing sooner or later I would need it. Well it is now later for me.

The first thing I know. This is not the first time for my 54 as I have a troubleshooting guide in with the owners manual from the previous owner. I have seen the pictures from Mohammed and the ones in the guide. My unit looked different from the one pictured disassembled, but is in fact a Sleipner/Sidepower unit made by Albright. They are similar but slightly different also I found my unit on the Vetus website.

Thanks to the legwork of group I will now remove and take apart my solenoid and hopefully I can repair and use it again. I can have one shipped into Grenada but hope this will work. I will Order one for the spares collection.

 

First I believed it was the relay but did more checking after the latest round of bow thruster talk. So I jumped the negative to the grey wire and the port direction was fine, but when jumping the blue nothing starboard happened.

I will take pictures of my unit disassembled. The inside should be similar. The two units below are the two deferent units my unit has 4 top studs also included is the part tag on my unit. The 3 stud unit I believe is the one in your manual and disassembled unit from Mohammed.

 

Randall

SV ALBEDO

A54#56

Grenada 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 02:21 Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Hello Thomas;

 

Doug informed me that he remembered seeing a post from you in this regard and Bill managed to locate and forward it. Your write up was also helpful.

 

Bill is great at “soaking in” the knowledge from the group, organizing and accessing it when needed. A great resource for all Amel owners.

 

Respectfully;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sv Garulfo via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, July 7, 2021 11:31 AM
To: Amel Yacht owners Group <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bow thruster does not work in one direvtion

 

Hi all,

 

That issue happened to us 3 years ago and we reported on the solution here (06/06/18   #40108 ). 

 

 

I would suggest carrying a spare relay as it happened to us again just recently. Note that we don’t use our thruster much, I don’t know if that helped delay the reoccurrence or instead accelerated it. 

 

In our bow thruster, the oem relay is by Albright (sales@...) in the UK (they could only provide model SW202-317 equivalent to SW202-260 installed).

An equivalent relay is available at evdrives.com  in the USA.

 

 

Hope that will help,

 

 

Best, 

Thomas

GARULFO 

A54-122

Tahiti


On 7 Jul 2021, at 03:00, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

I am glad it worked out and thanks for the photos. I was aware that this solution worked on at least two cases, but did not have the benefit of such exacting photos.

 

I am thinking that the life of this relay is probably about 10 - 12 years and if an owner has one in this age range disconnection from the motor, cleaning, and inspection is probably in order.

 

How many hours did it take?

 

Bill

 

 

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 2:13 AM Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Our first solution of just cleaning the control box, turned out to be a coincidental repair. The Bow Thruster did work for a few days and then stopped working in one direction again. After some research and assistance from the group, especially Doug Smith of Aventura and Bill Rouse, we narrowed down the issue to the main bowthruster relay. Yesterday we opened it up for inspection. The exterior of the relay was pristine, but found what is shown in the attached pictures. Some material has been physically transferred, from a process similar to welding, from some of the contacts in the relay, to the opposing contact in the relay. After a thorough cleaning of the buildup on th econtacts and other surfaces using wire brushers and application of CorrosionX to the springs, we have a fully operational Bowthruster. Now need to order a new one, as I don't believe we have as good a connection when the relay activates, due to the uneven surfaces of the contacts created by the arching that has been going on for a while. Thanks for all the shared knowledge.


Re: Bow thruster does not work in one direction

Randall Walker
 

Hello Mohammed, Doug, Thomas and Bill

I have just began the task of fixing my one way bow thruster, port works fine. The topic has come up many times and I had just filed the knowledge, knowing sooner or later I would need it. Well it is now later for me.
The first thing I know. This is not the first time for my 54 as I have a troubleshooting guide in with the owners manual from the previous owner. I have seen the pictures from Mohammed and the ones in the guide. My unit looked different from the one pictured disassembled, but is in fact a Sleipner/Sidepower unit made by Albright. They are similar but slightly different also I found my unit on the Vetus website.
Thanks to the legwork of group I will now remove and take apart my solenoid and hopefully I can repair and use it again. I can have one shipped into Grenada but hope this will work. I will Order one for the spares collection.

First I believed it was the relay but did more checking after the latest round of bow thruster talk. So I jumped the negative to the grey wire and the port direction was fine, but when jumping the blue nothing starboard happened.
I will take pictures of my unit disassembled. The inside should be similar. The two units below are the two deferent units my unit has 4 top studs also included is the part tag on my unit. The 3 stud unit I believe is the one in your manual and disassembled unit from Mohammed.

Randall
SV ALBEDO
A54#56
Grenada 









On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 02:21 Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Hello Thomas;

 

Doug informed me that he remembered seeing a post from you in this regard and Bill managed to locate and forward it. Your write up was also helpful.

 

Bill is great at “soaking in” the knowledge from the group, organizing and accessing it when needed. A great resource for all Amel owners.

 

Respectfully;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sv Garulfo via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, July 7, 2021 11:31 AM
To: Amel Yacht owners Group <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bow thruster does not work in one direvtion

 

Hi all,

 

That issue happened to us 3 years ago and we reported on the solution here (06/06/18   #40108 ). 

 

 

I would suggest carrying a spare relay as it happened to us again just recently. Note that we don’t use our thruster much, I don’t know if that helped delay the reoccurrence or instead accelerated it. 

 

In our bow thruster, the oem relay is by Albright (sales@...) in the UK (they could only provide model SW202-317 equivalent to SW202-260 installed).

An equivalent relay is available at evdrives.com  in the USA.

 

 

Hope that will help,

 

 

Best, 

Thomas

GARULFO 

A54-122

Tahiti


On 7 Jul 2021, at 03:00, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

I am glad it worked out and thanks for the photos. I was aware that this solution worked on at least two cases, but did not have the benefit of such exacting photos.

 

I am thinking that the life of this relay is probably about 10 - 12 years and if an owner has one in this age range disconnection from the motor, cleaning, and inspection is probably in order.

 

How many hours did it take?

 

Bill

 

 

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 2:13 AM Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Our first solution of just cleaning the control box, turned out to be a coincidental repair. The Bow Thruster did work for a few days and then stopped working in one direction again. After some research and assistance from the group, especially Doug Smith of Aventura and Bill Rouse, we narrowed down the issue to the main bowthruster relay. Yesterday we opened it up for inspection. The exterior of the relay was pristine, but found what is shown in the attached pictures. Some material has been physically transferred, from a process similar to welding, from some of the contacts in the relay, to the opposing contact in the relay. After a thorough cleaning of the buildup on th econtacts and other surfaces using wire brushers and application of CorrosionX to the springs, we have a fully operational Bowthruster. Now need to order a new one, as I don't believe we have as good a connection when the relay activates, due to the uneven surfaces of the contacts created by the arching that has been going on for a while. Thanks for all the shared knowledge.


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Well said Bill

Danny

On 09 July 2021 at 04:19 Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

I do not believe it is reasonable to expect one (or even two!) people to hand steer a boat for a thousand miles.  It just gets mentally and physically exhasuting, depending on point of sail and weather.  BUT>>> there is an alternative as Thomas of GARULFO suggests.  A well balanced sailboat (and a SM is pretty good at this) can sail on it's own for a good long time, holding a more or less constant angle to the wind.  It is very effective upwind, moderately so on a shallow reach, and is difficult to impossible as you come further downwind. You can not go anywhere you want to go, but you are not helplessly drifting either.

There are a few tricks.  To get a SM holding a steady course you must trim the sails so there is a bit of weather helm.  If there is even a bit of lee helm the boat just will not balance. In light winds, sometimes the mizzen traveler needs to be cocked to windward a bit to get the rudder turned the right way. The boat needs to head up in a gust, not bear away.  Off the wind, sheeting the jib in a bit loose, and having the mizzen just a bit tight can help.  The boat won't hold a dead straight line, but it will find its own way.  

When sailing close hauled, the rudder needs to be locked in place, as you bear away, there comes a point where the boat will usually behave better with the rudder left free to find its own angle. in both cases, if the need existed, this could be handled by the emergency tiller.

Minor course adjustments are made by tweaking the angle of the mizzen.

On our old boat (a 40 foot ketch) we broke our wind vane 1/3 of the way from California to Hawaii.  We managed 650 miles back upwind to California just trimming sails.  Once the boat was in the groove, we made course adjustments with the mizzen sheet.  We hardly touched the wheel at all until we were back in the variable coastal winds.

Each boat, and each set of sails, has its own sweet spot.  The only way to really know is to practice it. Having a powerful, reliable electric autopilot covers up a lot of sail trimming sins. Learning how to balance the boat so she can take care of herself will make anybody a better sailor.

We have the linear drive installed on our rudder, the chain drive on the wheel, either one can be driven by either of the two autopilot computers, and we have a backup linear drive that drops in place easily.  But of course all those do depend on the constant supply of electricity.

Bill Kinney
s/v  Harmonie
Brunswick, GA, USA


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Thomas, I agree with you. Seamanship is something that has been forgotten in this age of electronics and perhaps we should relearn it.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 09 July 2021 at 02:21 Sv Garulfo <svgarulfo@...> wrote:

 

In our experience there are points of sail where our boat can sail itself for a remarkable long time (upward of 45m) with the helm completely free, and that despite of confused seas.
We’ve done it for fun in the Caribbean and again in French Polynesia, in between islands, with AWA between 60° and 40° and AWS of 12kn to 18kn. 

I can’t really say why it works so beautifully but once the sails are trimmed properly (the mizzen being the final touch to perfectly balance the boat), the sea state is absorbed by the free rudder. The helm turns a fair amount as the boat rides up and down the waves, but it behaves better than when driven by the autopilot. It’s a smoother ride, more natural (and very satisfying!).
It usually stops when an odd wave pushes the boat out of equilibrium and the AWA start drifting one way or another. 

I don’t know about other points of sail. I’d say it’s more difficult to achieve as the sea is more likely to knock the boat off balance. 

I would imagine drifting/heaving to is a way for solo sailors to rest.

Having said that, I think the redundancy you are looking for here is crew. 
Solo sailing such a big boat requires reasonable confidence that redundancy of technical equipment will cover 99% of situations. The remaining 1% is a leap of faith. If that is not acceptable, a smaller boat with a wind-vane may be a better choice. 


Best,

Thomas
GARULFO 
A54-122
Tahiti 

On 7 Jul 2021, at 23:04, Stéphane Meyer via groups.io < fredolo@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

All valid comments and thank you for your inputs.

How is it humanly possible to manually steer a boat for 15 or 20 days if you're on your own and for exemple having to deal with a complete electrical failure ? 
I'd like a fail operational system but I know this isn't an airliner and event they sometime fail despite all what is done to achieve redundancy.

However I'd like to do my best not being on my own in the middle of the Pacific Ocean having to manually steer the boat ....

So here we are :
1/ How can we have a backup automatic steering in case of total electrical failure ? I was of course thinking of a wind vane system but I've heard this is not achievable on a SM/SN is that true ?
2/ How can you reasonnably deal with the said situation if you don't have such a backup ? Can you still setup a bungee system which would "steer the boat" while your'e having the little sleep you need not to kill yourself ?


 


 


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Unpleasant but possible. 

Not suggesting it as a choice but it can be done. Careful sail trim using skills we have forgotten or perhaps never known can make it a lot easier. 

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 08 July 2021 at 21:04 "Stéphane Meyer via groups.io" <fredolo@...> wrote:

How is it humanly possible to manually steer a boat for 15 or 20 days if you're on your own and for exemple having to deal with a complete electrical failure ? 
I'd like a fail operational system, like a wind vane system but I've heard this is not achievable on a SM/SN is thceat true ?


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Nick Newington
 

I agree with  Garulfo.  I have sailed from U.K. to Brazil  alone in 1990. Not on an Amel, no autopilot but a servo pendulum system wind vane. Similar to an Aries. 
There are various components in such a system many of which could break and and render it worthless. The fall back is hand steering. I accepted this risk.
You could go  for a Hydrovane. 
I suspect it would not  work very well on bigger Amels, but it would work and get you there. The thing is, you bolt on this expensive monstrosity and never use it.

My perspective; is that I think the best solution is have two electric aitopilots installed, but failing that a spare in the box ready to  go. I am afraid you have to just hope 
1. That the batteries do not fail
2. That they can be charged by either the engine or generator and /or solar. 
Nick
Amelia AML 54-019 
Samos


On 8 Jul 2021, at 17:21, Sv Garulfo <svgarulfo@...> wrote:



In our experience there are points of sail where our boat can sail itself for a remarkable long time (upward of 45m) with the helm completely free, and that despite of confused seas.
We’ve done it for fun in the Caribbean and again in French Polynesia, in between islands, with AWA between 60° and 40° and AWS of 12kn to 18kn. 

I can’t really say why it works so beautifully but once the sails are trimmed properly (the mizzen being the final touch to perfectly balance the boat), the sea state is absorbed by the free rudder. The helm turns a fair amount as the boat rides up and down the waves, but it behaves better than when driven by the autopilot. It’s a smoother ride, more natural (and very satisfying!).
It usually stops when an odd wave pushes the boat out of equilibrium and the AWA start drifting one way or another. 

I don’t know about other points of sail. I’d say it’s more difficult to achieve as the sea is more likely to knock the boat off balance. 

I would imagine drifting/heaving to is a way for solo sailors to rest.

Having said that, I think the redundancy you are looking for here is crew. 
Solo sailing such a big boat requires reasonable confidence that redundancy of technical equipment will cover 99% of situations. The remaining 1% is a leap of faith. If that is not acceptable, a smaller boat with a wind-vane may be a better choice. 


Best,

Thomas
GARULFO 
A54-122
Tahiti 

On 7 Jul 2021, at 23:04, Stéphane Meyer via groups.io <fredolo@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

All valid comments and thank you for your inputs.

How is it humanly possible to manually steer a boat for 15 or 20 days if you're on your own and for exemple having to deal with a complete electrical failure ? 
I'd like a fail operational system but I know this isn't an airliner and event they sometime fail despite all what is done to achieve redundancy.

However I'd like to do my best not being on my own in the middle of the Pacific Ocean having to manually steer the boat ....

So here we are :
1/ How can we have a backup automatic steering in case of total electrical failure ? I was of course thinking of a wind vane system but I've heard this is not achievable on a SM/SN is that true ?
2/ How can you reasonnably deal with the said situation if you don't have such a backup ? Can you still setup a bungee system which would "steer the boat" while your'e having the little sleep you need not to kill yourself ?


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Mark Erdos
 

We have also learned to heave to with same set up. Just come about and don’t release the jib. There is no need to go forward and no need to change sails.

 

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Justin Maguire
Sent: Thursday, July 8, 2021 7:41 AM
To: Paul Harries
Cc: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

 

It simple provides better balancing between fore and aft making it easier to trim to a point of sail where you don’t need to steer. 

 

One of the things I was taught when I was very young at a sailing school was how to sail and steer only with the sales… It’s actually a useful exercise. 

 

Head out for a sail. Put up your sails… trim to your pint of sail. Put your Helm at the center position and tie it off..

 

Now.. as you adjust the trim on tour sails, they will naturally point the boat to their most efficient airfoil shape relative to their position from the centerline of the boat. 

 

This is generally a good practice to be in anyway even with an auto pilot… Your cell trim should require very little steering to hold course… If you nailed this, you will significantly reduce the wear and tear on your auto pilot motors

 

 

 



On Jul 8, 2021, at 13:24, Paul Harries <pharries@...> wrote:

Never having sailed a ketch I was hoping someone could elaborate on how the mizzen is used to steer. 

I understand that first the other sails have to be adjusted to give slight weather helm but what is the secret with the mizzen?

 

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 11:24, Justin Maguire

<justin_maguire@...> wrote:

What bill said 👆🏼



On Jul 8, 2021, at 12:19, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

I do not believe it is reasonable to expect one (or even two!) people to hand steer a boat for a thousand miles.  It just gets mentally and physically exhasuting, depending on point of sail and weather.  BUT>>> there is an alternative as Thomas of GARULFO suggests.  A well balanced sailboat (and a SM is pretty good at this) can sail on it's own for a good long time, holding a more or less constant angle to the wind.  It is very effective upwind, moderately so on a shallow reach, and is difficult to impossible as you come further downwind. You can not go anywhere you want to go, but you are not helplessly drifting either.

There are a few tricks.  To get a SM holding a steady course you must trim the sails so there is a bit of weather helm.  If there is even a bit of lee helm the boat just will not balance. In light winds, sometimes the mizzen traveler needs to be cocked to windward a bit to get the rudder turned the right way. The boat needs to head up in a gust, not bear away.  Off the wind, sheeting the jib in a bit loose, and having the mizzen just a bit tight can help.  The boat won't hold a dead straight line, but it will find its own way.  

When sailing close hauled, the rudder needs to be locked in place, as you bear away, there comes a point where the boat will usually behave better with the rudder left free to find its own angle. in both cases, if the need existed, this could be handled by the emergency tiller.

Minor course adjustments are made by tweaking the angle of the mizzen.

On our old boat (a 40 foot ketch) we broke our wind vane 1/3 of the way from California to Hawaii.  We managed 650 miles back upwind to California just trimming sails.  Once the boat was in the groove, we made course adjustments with the mizzen sheet.  We hardly touched the wheel at all until we were back in the variable coastal winds.

Each boat, and each set of sails, has its own sweet spot.  The only way to really know is to practice it. Having a powerful, reliable electric autopilot covers up a lot of sail trimming sins. Learning how to balance the boat so she can take care of herself will make anybody a better sailor.

We have the linear drive installed on our rudder, the chain drive on the wheel, either one can be driven by either of the two autopilot computers, and we have a backup linear drive that drops in place easily.  But of course all those do depend on the constant supply of electricity.

Bill Kinney
s/v Harmonie
Brunswick, GA, USA


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Paul Harries
 

Balancing the sails along with Jib and Jigger I get, being so far behind the center of rotation I assumed the Mizzen would add weather helm. 
Is the concept of steering with Mizzen purely a matter of Lee vs Weather helm or is there something else?


On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 12:48, Mark Erdos
<mcerdos@...> wrote:

Hi Paul,

 

I had never sailed a ketch prior to owning an Amel and the best advice I can give you is trial and error. Now, I would never want a sloop rig again.

 

One of our favorite sail combinations is what is called Jib and Jigger. When properly tuned, there is almost no need for the auto pilot. The mizzen sail acts as a sort of air rudder. Steering in heavy weather is a really light touch on the wheel and the boat sails a true straight course with no pull to windward with gusts. Here’s a good read: https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/cruising-life/ketch-sailing-jib-and-jigger-31436

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Paul Harries via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, July 8, 2021 7:24 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io; Justin Maguire; main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

 

Never having sailed a ketch I was hoping someone could elaborate on how the mizzen is used to steer. 

I understand that first the other sails have to be adjusted to give slight weather helm but what is the secret with the mizzen?

 

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 11:24, Justin Maguire

<justin_maguire@...> wrote:

What bill said 👆🏼



On Jul 8, 2021, at 12:19, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

I do not believe it is reasonable to expect one (or even two!) people to hand steer a boat for a thousand miles.  It just gets mentally and physically exhasuting, depending on point of sail and weather.  BUT>>> there is an alternative as Thomas of GARULFO suggests.  A well balanced sailboat (and a SM is pretty good at this) can sail on it's own for a good long time, holding a more or less constant angle to the wind.  It is very effective upwind, moderately so on a shallow reach, and is difficult to impossible as you come further downwind. You can not go anywhere you want to go, but you are not helplessly drifting either.

There are a few tricks.  To get a SM holding a steady course you must trim the sails so there is a bit of weather helm.  If there is even a bit of lee helm the boat just will not balance. In light winds, sometimes the mizzen traveler needs to be cocked to windward a bit to get the rudder turned the right way. The boat needs to head up in a gust, not bear away.  Off the wind, sheeting the jib in a bit loose, and having the mizzen just a bit tight can help.  The boat won't hold a dead straight line, but it will find its own way.  

When sailing close hauled, the rudder needs to be locked in place, as you bear away, there comes a point where the boat will usually behave better with the rudder left free to find its own angle. in both cases, if the need existed, this could be handled by the emergency tiller.

Minor course adjustments are made by tweaking the angle of the mizzen.

On our old boat (a 40 foot ketch) we broke our wind vane 1/3 of the way from California to Hawaii.  We managed 650 miles back upwind to California just trimming sails.  Once the boat was in the groove, we made course adjustments with the mizzen sheet.  We hardly touched the wheel at all until we were back in the variable coastal winds.

Each boat, and each set of sails, has its own sweet spot.  The only way to really know is to practice it. Having a powerful, reliable electric autopilot covers up a lot of sail trimming sins. Learning how to balance the boat so she can take care of herself will make anybody a better sailor.

We have the linear drive installed on our rudder, the chain drive on the wheel, either one can be driven by either of the two autopilot computers, and we have a backup linear drive that drops in place easily.  But of course all those do depend on the constant supply of electricity.

Bill Kinney
s/v Harmonie
Brunswick, GA, USA


--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Mark Erdos
 

Hi Paul,

 

I had never sailed a ketch prior to owning an Amel and the best advice I can give you is trial and error. Now, I would never want a sloop rig again.

 

One of our favorite sail combinations is what is called Jib and Jigger. When properly tuned, there is almost no need for the auto pilot. The mizzen sail acts as a sort of air rudder. Steering in heavy weather is a really light touch on the wheel and the boat sails a true straight course with no pull to windward with gusts. Here’s a good read: https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/cruising-life/ketch-sailing-jib-and-jigger-31436

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Paul Harries via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, July 8, 2021 7:24 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io; Justin Maguire; main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

 

Never having sailed a ketch I was hoping someone could elaborate on how the mizzen is used to steer. 

I understand that first the other sails have to be adjusted to give slight weather helm but what is the secret with the mizzen?

 

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 11:24, Justin Maguire

<justin_maguire@...> wrote:

What bill said 👆🏼



On Jul 8, 2021, at 12:19, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

I do not believe it is reasonable to expect one (or even two!) people to hand steer a boat for a thousand miles.  It just gets mentally and physically exhasuting, depending on point of sail and weather.  BUT>>> there is an alternative as Thomas of GARULFO suggests.  A well balanced sailboat (and a SM is pretty good at this) can sail on it's own for a good long time, holding a more or less constant angle to the wind.  It is very effective upwind, moderately so on a shallow reach, and is difficult to impossible as you come further downwind. You can not go anywhere you want to go, but you are not helplessly drifting either.

There are a few tricks.  To get a SM holding a steady course you must trim the sails so there is a bit of weather helm.  If there is even a bit of lee helm the boat just will not balance. In light winds, sometimes the mizzen traveler needs to be cocked to windward a bit to get the rudder turned the right way. The boat needs to head up in a gust, not bear away.  Off the wind, sheeting the jib in a bit loose, and having the mizzen just a bit tight can help.  The boat won't hold a dead straight line, but it will find its own way.  

When sailing close hauled, the rudder needs to be locked in place, as you bear away, there comes a point where the boat will usually behave better with the rudder left free to find its own angle. in both cases, if the need existed, this could be handled by the emergency tiller.

Minor course adjustments are made by tweaking the angle of the mizzen.

On our old boat (a 40 foot ketch) we broke our wind vane 1/3 of the way from California to Hawaii.  We managed 650 miles back upwind to California just trimming sails.  Once the boat was in the groove, we made course adjustments with the mizzen sheet.  We hardly touched the wheel at all until we were back in the variable coastal winds.

Each boat, and each set of sails, has its own sweet spot.  The only way to really know is to practice it. Having a powerful, reliable electric autopilot covers up a lot of sail trimming sins. Learning how to balance the boat so she can take care of herself will make anybody a better sailor.

We have the linear drive installed on our rudder, the chain drive on the wheel, either one can be driven by either of the two autopilot computers, and we have a backup linear drive that drops in place easily.  But of course all those do depend on the constant supply of electricity.

Bill Kinney
s/v Harmonie
Brunswick, GA, USA


--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Justin Maguire
 

It simple provides better balancing between fore and aft making it easier to trim to a point of sail where you don’t need to steer. 

One of the things I was taught when I was very young at a sailing school was how to sail and steer only with the sales… It’s actually a useful exercise. 

Head out for a sail. Put up your sails… trim to your pint of sail. Put your Helm at the center position and tie it off..

Now.. as you adjust the trim on tour sails, they will naturally point the boat to their most efficient airfoil shape relative to their position from the centerline of the boat. 

This is generally a good practice to be in anyway even with an auto pilot… Your cell trim should require very little steering to hold course… If you nailed this, you will significantly reduce the wear and tear on your auto pilot motors




On Jul 8, 2021, at 13:24, Paul Harries <pharries@...> wrote:

Never having sailed a ketch I was hoping someone could elaborate on how the mizzen is used to steer. 
I understand that first the other sails have to be adjusted to give slight weather helm but what is the secret with the mizzen?


On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 11:24, Justin Maguire
<justin_maguire@...> wrote:
What bill said 👆🏼


On Jul 8, 2021, at 12:19, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

I do not believe it is reasonable to expect one (or even two!) people to hand steer a boat for a thousand miles.  It just gets mentally and physically exhasuting, depending on point of sail and weather.  BUT>>> there is an alternative as Thomas of GARULFO suggests.  A well balanced sailboat (and a SM is pretty good at this) can sail on it's own for a good long time, holding a more or less constant angle to the wind.  It is very effective upwind, moderately so on a shallow reach, and is difficult to impossible as you come further downwind. You can not go anywhere you want to go, but you are not helplessly drifting either.

There are a few tricks.  To get a SM holding a steady course you must trim the sails so there is a bit of weather helm.  If there is even a bit of lee helm the boat just will not balance. In light winds, sometimes the mizzen traveler needs to be cocked to windward a bit to get the rudder turned the right way. The boat needs to head up in a gust, not bear away.  Off the wind, sheeting the jib in a bit loose, and having the mizzen just a bit tight can help.  The boat won't hold a dead straight line, but it will find its own way.  

When sailing close hauled, the rudder needs to be locked in place, as you bear away, there comes a point where the boat will usually behave better with the rudder left free to find its own angle. in both cases, if the need existed, this could be handled by the emergency tiller.

Minor course adjustments are made by tweaking the angle of the mizzen.

On our old boat (a 40 foot ketch) we broke our wind vane 1/3 of the way from California to Hawaii.  We managed 650 miles back upwind to California just trimming sails.  Once the boat was in the groove, we made course adjustments with the mizzen sheet.  We hardly touched the wheel at all until we were back in the variable coastal winds.

Each boat, and each set of sails, has its own sweet spot.  The only way to really know is to practice it. Having a powerful, reliable electric autopilot covers up a lot of sail trimming sins. Learning how to balance the boat so she can take care of herself will make anybody a better sailor.

We have the linear drive installed on our rudder, the chain drive on the wheel, either one can be driven by either of the two autopilot computers, and we have a backup linear drive that drops in place easily.  But of course all those do depend on the constant supply of electricity.

Bill Kinney
s/v Harmonie
Brunswick, GA, USA


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Paul Harries
 

Never having sailed a ketch I was hoping someone could elaborate on how the mizzen is used to steer. 
I understand that first the other sails have to be adjusted to give slight weather helm but what is the secret with the mizzen?


On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 11:24, Justin Maguire
<justin_maguire@...> wrote:
What bill said 👆🏼


On Jul 8, 2021, at 12:19, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

I do not believe it is reasonable to expect one (or even two!) people to hand steer a boat for a thousand miles.  It just gets mentally and physically exhasuting, depending on point of sail and weather.  BUT>>> there is an alternative as Thomas of GARULFO suggests.  A well balanced sailboat (and a SM is pretty good at this) can sail on it's own for a good long time, holding a more or less constant angle to the wind.  It is very effective upwind, moderately so on a shallow reach, and is difficult to impossible as you come further downwind. You can not go anywhere you want to go, but you are not helplessly drifting either.

There are a few tricks.  To get a SM holding a steady course you must trim the sails so there is a bit of weather helm.  If there is even a bit of lee helm the boat just will not balance. In light winds, sometimes the mizzen traveler needs to be cocked to windward a bit to get the rudder turned the right way. The boat needs to head up in a gust, not bear away.  Off the wind, sheeting the jib in a bit loose, and having the mizzen just a bit tight can help.  The boat won't hold a dead straight line, but it will find its own way.  

When sailing close hauled, the rudder needs to be locked in place, as you bear away, there comes a point where the boat will usually behave better with the rudder left free to find its own angle. in both cases, if the need existed, this could be handled by the emergency tiller.

Minor course adjustments are made by tweaking the angle of the mizzen.

On our old boat (a 40 foot ketch) we broke our wind vane 1/3 of the way from California to Hawaii.  We managed 650 miles back upwind to California just trimming sails.  Once the boat was in the groove, we made course adjustments with the mizzen sheet.  We hardly touched the wheel at all until we were back in the variable coastal winds.

Each boat, and each set of sails, has its own sweet spot.  The only way to really know is to practice it. Having a powerful, reliable electric autopilot covers up a lot of sail trimming sins. Learning how to balance the boat so she can take care of herself will make anybody a better sailor.

We have the linear drive installed on our rudder, the chain drive on the wheel, either one can be driven by either of the two autopilot computers, and we have a backup linear drive that drops in place easily.  But of course all those do depend on the constant supply of electricity.

Bill Kinney
s/v Harmonie
Brunswick, GA, USA

--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Justin Maguire
 

What bill said 👆🏼


On Jul 8, 2021, at 12:19, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

I do not believe it is reasonable to expect one (or even two!) people to hand steer a boat for a thousand miles.  It just gets mentally and physically exhasuting, depending on point of sail and weather.  BUT>>> there is an alternative as Thomas of GARULFO suggests.  A well balanced sailboat (and a SM is pretty good at this) can sail on it's own for a good long time, holding a more or less constant angle to the wind.  It is very effective upwind, moderately so on a shallow reach, and is difficult to impossible as you come further downwind. You can not go anywhere you want to go, but you are not helplessly drifting either.

There are a few tricks.  To get a SM holding a steady course you must trim the sails so there is a bit of weather helm.  If there is even a bit of lee helm the boat just will not balance. In light winds, sometimes the mizzen traveler needs to be cocked to windward a bit to get the rudder turned the right way. The boat needs to head up in a gust, not bear away.  Off the wind, sheeting the jib in a bit loose, and having the mizzen just a bit tight can help.  The boat won't hold a dead straight line, but it will find its own way.  

When sailing close hauled, the rudder needs to be locked in place, as you bear away, there comes a point where the boat will usually behave better with the rudder left free to find its own angle. in both cases, if the need existed, this could be handled by the emergency tiller.

Minor course adjustments are made by tweaking the angle of the mizzen.

On our old boat (a 40 foot ketch) we broke our wind vane 1/3 of the way from California to Hawaii.  We managed 650 miles back upwind to California just trimming sails.  Once the boat was in the groove, we made course adjustments with the mizzen sheet.  We hardly touched the wheel at all until we were back in the variable coastal winds.

Each boat, and each set of sails, has its own sweet spot.  The only way to really know is to practice it. Having a powerful, reliable electric autopilot covers up a lot of sail trimming sins. Learning how to balance the boat so she can take care of herself will make anybody a better sailor.

We have the linear drive installed on our rudder, the chain drive on the wheel, either one can be driven by either of the two autopilot computers, and we have a backup linear drive that drops in place easily.  But of course all those do depend on the constant supply of electricity.

Bill Kinney
s/v Harmonie
Brunswick, GA, USA


Re: Self introduction and question about autopilot redundancy and solo sailing

Bill Kinney
 

I do not believe it is reasonable to expect one (or even two!) people to hand steer a boat for a thousand miles.  It just gets mentally and physically exhasuting, depending on point of sail and weather.  BUT>>> there is an alternative as Thomas of GARULFO suggests.  A well balanced sailboat (and a SM is pretty good at this) can sail on it's own for a good long time, holding a more or less constant angle to the wind.  It is very effective upwind, moderately so on a shallow reach, and is difficult to impossible as you come further downwind. You can not go anywhere you want to go, but you are not helplessly drifting either.

There are a few tricks.  To get a SM holding a steady course you must trim the sails so there is a bit of weather helm.  If there is even a bit of lee helm the boat just will not balance. In light winds, sometimes the mizzen traveler needs to be cocked to windward a bit to get the rudder turned the right way. The boat needs to head up in a gust, not bear away.  Off the wind, sheeting the jib in a bit loose, and having the mizzen just a bit tight can help.  The boat won't hold a dead straight line, but it will find its own way.  

When sailing close hauled, the rudder needs to be locked in place, as you bear away, there comes a point where the boat will usually behave better with the rudder left free to find its own angle. in both cases, if the need existed, this could be handled by the emergency tiller.

Minor course adjustments are made by tweaking the angle of the mizzen.

On our old boat (a 40 foot ketch) we broke our wind vane 1/3 of the way from California to Hawaii.  We managed 650 miles back upwind to California just trimming sails.  Once the boat was in the groove, we made course adjustments with the mizzen sheet.  We hardly touched the wheel at all until we were back in the variable coastal winds.

Each boat, and each set of sails, has its own sweet spot.  The only way to really know is to practice it. Having a powerful, reliable electric autopilot covers up a lot of sail trimming sins. Learning how to balance the boat so she can take care of herself will make anybody a better sailor.

We have the linear drive installed on our rudder, the chain drive on the wheel, either one can be driven by either of the two autopilot computers, and we have a backup linear drive that drops in place easily.  But of course all those do depend on the constant supply of electricity.

Bill Kinney
s/v Harmonie
Brunswick, GA, USA

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