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Re: Mizzen Staysail setup, aka foc d'artimon, aka "Little Artie"
Ian Park
Craig
Thanks for quick reply. The boat already had two pretty substantial blocks permanently attached in front of the rear cleats. I assumed these had been for the Ballooner (but as you said you only need one). I automatically assumed they were for the mizzen staysail too, but at some angles the foot of the sail doesn’t tension enough leaving the sail a bit baggy. I like the idea of the 1m pennant - I’ll give that one a try. There was no Santorin handbook with the boat, so I’ve worked mainly from the SM handbook where there are similarities. Still learning how to sail a ketch! There are no books about it….. Nice name ‘Little Artie’ ! Ian Ocean Hobo SN96
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Whisker Pole
I don't think that's necessary, Danny. Actually, the composite collar is what overhangs the fitting. If I can get the fitting and collar out, I can just reinstall, properly this time. I think I'll buy a slide hammer, it seems there are any number of things it could be useful for. If I can get the fitting on the other end of the pole off, I can probably tap the stuck fitting out with a long piece of wood.
On Oct 21, 2017, at 10:56 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Hi Kent, sounds like there is a bit of the tube overhanging the fitting. Why not do a careful hacksaw job on it, unless you feel you want to get back to full length. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
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Re: SM Furling Motor Brush Dimensions
Miles
HI, As I have recently discovered, Amel used several different motors which had different brushes. The only sure way to get the correct replacement is to copy the numbers off the plate on the motor and buy them from the manufacturer. The motors on my boat have different brushes. I just bought a correct set from the manufacturer branch in Canada (it is on the internet). Cleaning all of the carbon dust (with a vacuum nearby) also helps the motors. Regards, Miles B , sm 216, Ladybug , in Newport, preparing to sail to Martinique
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Distributed vs. Conventional Electrical Systems
Per James' question, on my Santorin the bow thruster motor is a Leroy Somers Type TF15. The name plate shows: - PkW 6.3, which I take to mean kiloWatts (don't know P in french, but likely Puissance or Power), which would be 8.5 horsepower. - 12V - it's a 12 volt motor - 815 A - which may be a peak amperage or something, as it's different than the calculated 525 amps you get from dividing 6300 watts by 12 v above. - Cmkg of 2.3, which I'd guess measure of torque (couple in French, I believe) in meter/kilograms. - Vtr/mn of 2650, which I'd guess is revolutions per minute, - IP 20 which I think is some kind of degree of protection, although I don't know the specifics - S 2-1 MN which I think is a duty type of how long to run and rest the motor, although I can't make sense of it. - Classe F - which may be some EU rating system, I'd guess. - The nameplate also says: "Important: couple de serrage des tiges d'assemblage" and 0.35 mkg., which my computer translates as "tightening torque of the assembly rods" .If the units meter/kg's that would be 30 lb/in.. If anyone knows the exact translations it would be interesting, although the key elements are 8.5 HP and 525 amps. There is no protection in the wiring. Craig Briggs, SN#68 ---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote : Bill Kinney, Thanks for doing the testing and providing the results. I knew that the SM bow thruster was more powerful than the earlier Amel bow thrusters but the upgrade in power is far more than I realized. From your measurements, if my math is correct, 420 x 24.1 = 10,122 watts/ 750 = almost 13.5 HP electric as compared to the unit on my boat having around 1.6 HP. In the case of your voltage measurement, can I assume that the 24.1 volts being measured at the battery terminals rather than the thruster motor terminals? I have never seen a 500 AMP or larger DC breaker so perhaps the lack of availability is this is the reason Amel did not install that form of protection? Clearly the system has worked well for a lot of boats over a long period of time, but the fuses you mentioned do seem like a good idea in case a short ever developed. With the SM motor rated for 6.3 KW and actually being hit with 10KW+ I can now understand the reason that it is important on the SM to limit the burst time to 30 seconds to control motor heating. With the thruster on my Maramu, a run of 2 minutes results in very very minor heating (Maybe a 10C rise at most) but then a thruster is generally only needed for short bursts so I think that the path Amel took to push the motor harder for a short duration was a good choice. I am wondering if it might be possible for me to increase the power on my thruster by changing to to a different motor? A doubling in power would be nice to have for higher winds, perhaps someone else has already looked into this? The lower unit of the thruster shares many of the same parts with the SM based on the bow thruster items I have ordered so far from Maude and I think even turns the same size prop as some of the SM's. Would you know (or anyone else reading this) if the Santorin uses 12 or 24V on it’s bow thruster? Best, James Alton SV Sueno, Maramu #220
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Re: Mizzen Staysail setup, aka foc d'artimon, aka "Little Artie"
Ian,
We use a small block with about a 1M long pennant fastened to the aft mooring cleat. It gives a very good run inside the life rails and under the mizzen boom with no interference and presents an excellent angle of the sheet into the sail. When you say you use your ballooner blocks, I assume you are removing them from the bow and snatchting them aft, right? (pretty much what I'm describing). Of course you really only need one as you can't tack "Little Artie" without dousing and resetting him. And, yes, the original Santorin brochure showed the foc d'artimon as being the same 3/4 oz nylon as the ballooner was made of. Ours, however, is conventional white dacron (don't recall the weight but maybe 8 oz.) Being a small sail it's very easy to flake and roll into a small package that's happy in the cockpit lazarette locker. Cheers, Craig Briggs SN#68 ---In amelyachtowners@..., <parkianj@...> wrote : Hi Dennis It seems that there was an evolution of the mizzen staysail. On the Santorin (and photos of SM) they are made of the same material as the ballooner and are easy to handle and do stuff into the sailbag. I am now unsure of where to sheet my ballooner having read this thread with folk saying to use the end of the mizzen boom. I’m currently using the ballooner blocks...... Any views gratefully received Ian Ocean Hobo SN96
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] staysail mizzen setup
James Alton
Ian,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
The mizzen staysail can be made of either either Nylon or Dacron. The former as you state is much easier to handle due to the bag stuffing. You can think of the Mizzen staysail a bit like being a genoa for the mizzen with regards to fabric and the sheeting. The Nylon and deeper sail will be better for off wind sailing and the Dacron will keep a better shape for sailing closer to the wind. The nylon is also less noisy if the boat is rolling and the sail is alternately filling and emptying. And then just as you would use a pole on the Genoa when well off of the wind, the Mizzen boom can serve as the pole for the Mizzen ballooner/staysail to help project the area better and open up the slot. Sheeting to the mizzen boom adds to the complexity and it may not be worth the small performance increase to you but we like to use it sometimes ourselves. Best, James Alton SV Sueno, Maramu #220
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Re: staysail mizzen setup
Ian Park
Hi Dennis
It seems that there was an evolution of the mizzen staysail. On the Santorin (and photos of SM) they are made of the same material as the ballooner and are easy to handle and do stuff into the sailbag. I am now unsure of where to sheet my ballooner having read this thread with folk saying to use the end of the mizzen boom. I’m currently using the ballooner blocks...... Any views gratefully received Ian Ocean Hobo SN96
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Whisker Pole
Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
Hi Kent, sounds like there is a bit of the tube overhanging the fitting. Why not do a careful hacksaw job on it, unless you feel you want to get back to full length. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Distributed vs. Conventional Electrical Systems
Notwithstanding my comment of not to bother with them, you are EXACTLY right, Bill, and your engine starting battery fuses are EXACTLY what would have saved SM Miss Lindy from burning her wiring three times. You've made me a believer !!! Cheers, Craig SN68 ---In amelyachtowners@..., <greatketch@...> wrote : Harmonie has had the battery terminal fuses for years. They work fine. In addition to the fuses on the house battery side, we also have a 300 amp fuse on the engine starting battery terminal. Also does the job. Keeping the boat safe in case of a short circuit in the wiring chase is EXACTLY why those fuses were installed. Bill Kinney SM160, Harmonie Harris Creek, Maryland Eastern Shore ---In amelyachtowners@..., <sangaris@...> wrote : Frankly, Kent, a separate chase seems a bit of overkill. Probably just disconnecting the engine starting cables every few years (maybe when you replace the battery) and pulling them out of the chase for inspection then reinstalling would be more than sufficient. And I don't think I'd bother with putting fuses on the engine cables at the battery. Maybe on the house bank like Bill R did. Seemed he fused each battery pair, though, and I'd think just fusing the main cables to the 24v panel would do, like, I think, Alan did. Craig, SN68 ---In amelyachtowners@..., <karkauai@...> wrote : Hmmm, thanks Craig. Seems to me separate chases for Pos and Neg cables would be a good idea. I guess I'd better add the fuses as others are doing. Kent
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Whisker Pole
Yes, do be careful as that fitting can break - I had a clever Greek welder fix a cracked one for me by puddling a lot of new metal and it was a good fix. (Although I had a spare). My first thought for your situation was to get a new jockey pole tube and destructively cut off / peel the old one away from the fitting. Whatever you do, be a bit gentle with the fitting itself.
Rotsa ruck, Craig, SN68 ---In amelyachtowners@..., <karkauai@...> wrote : Oops, you're right, Craig. That didn't make any sense at all. It's the inboard end of the long (whisker) pole that was damaged. When the machinist put it back together, he mounted the inner cone-shaped aluminum piece too far into the aluminum tube. Now it doesn't stick out far enough to allow the jockey pole Spring-loaded clip to catch. It's stuck fast, if I can get it out, I can reassemble it properly. But I haven't been able to get it out, just looking for some tricks that might work without damaging the pole center fitting piece, or composite material collar. Kent S/V Kristy SM243 Jacksonville, FL
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Distributed vs. Conventional Electrical Systems
greatketch@...
Harmonie has had the battery terminal fuses for years. They work fine.
In addition to the fuses on the house battery side, we also have a 300 amp fuse on the engine starting battery terminal. Also does the job. Keeping the boat safe in case of a short circuit in the wiring chase is EXACTLY why those fuses were installed. Bill Kinney SM160, Harmonie Harris Creek, Maryland Eastern Shore ---In amelyachtowners@..., <sangaris@...> wrote : Frankly, Kent, a separate chase seems a bit of overkill. Probably just disconnecting the engine starting cables every few years (maybe when you replace the battery) and pulling them out of the chase for inspection then reinstalling would be more than sufficient. And I don't think I'd bother with putting fuses on the engine cables at the battery. Maybe on the house bank like Bill R did. Seemed he fused each battery pair, though, and I'd think just fusing the main cables to the 24v panel would do, like, I think, Alan did. Craig, SN68 ---In amelyachtowners@..., <karkauai@...> wrote : Hmmm, thanks Craig. Seems to me separate chases for Pos and Neg cables would be a good idea. I guess I'd better add the fuses as others are doing. Kent
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Whisker Pole
Oops, you're right, Craig. That didn't make any sense at all. It's the inboard end of the long (whisker) pole that was damaged. When the machinist put it back together, he mounted the inner cone-shaped aluminum piece too far into the aluminum tube. Now it doesn't stick out far enough to allow the jockey pole Spring-loaded clip to catch. It's stuck fast, if I can get it out, I can reassemble it properly. But I haven't been able to get it out, just looking for some tricks that might work without damaging the pole center fitting piece, or composite material collar. Kent S/V Kristy SM243 Jacksonville, FL
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Re: staysail mizzen setup
sbmesasailor
Hi Miles, Frankly, we used a lighter weight sail I call a drifter on the mizzen rig rather than the standard cruising sail that is technically the mizzen stay. The reason we didn't like to use the standard mizzen was that it was a real pain to fold being rather large and stiff. The lighter sail we used could stuff into a bag. As a result, we never used the drifter in wind over 15 kts apparent but then with wind over 15 kts, I was quite happy to cruise along at 6-7 kts with just the jib,main, and mizzen. What hasn't been mentioned in response to this inquiry in the forum is the fact that the mizzen stay tack must be anchored about three feet above the deck to clear the main sheet (and the dodger of course). When you have your mizzen stay sail made, the sailmaker can integrate this in the sail's internal stay or you can add it later with an extension -just make sure the sailmaker has the right dimension to begin with. Dennis Johns Libertad Maramu 121
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] staysail mizzen setup
Graham Cresswell <grahamjcresswell@...>
Hi Miles,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Good to see another normal (i.e. not Super-) Maramu. I've yet to fly my foc d'artimon as I'm suffering the same confusions as you are. I had my first try last week and it was a disaster because I didn't notice that my wind generator, which is mounted just below the radar on the mizzen mast, conflicts with the mizzen staysail halyard. Just as I was about to attach it to the head of the sail, the wind generator wound it up and I spend nearly an hour up the mast unravelling it - fortunately smooth seas! However, another problem was revealed. The mainmast backstay, which is secured at the foot of the mizzen mast, in combination with the wind generator and radar, means that I can't see any way of safely moving the halyard from one side of the boat to the other. So at the moment, when I pluck up courage, I'll only be able to fly the mizzen staysail on the port tack! I'm obviously being stupid as I can't believe this is how it's meant to work. If anyone else has faced this problem and found a solution, please share it! Graham Cresswell Jamesby M240 currently on the hard in Rodney Bay, St Lucia.
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] SM Furling Motor Brush Dimensions
Ian Shepherd
Hi Hajo, your dimensions seem quite different to mine and perhaps I should
have said the mainsail furling motor. The sides of my brushes are
8mm x 10mm so I guess we are talking about different motors. Maybe
Amel changed the motor during the evolution of the SM? If you are talking about the genoa furling motor then I shall get some spares from Josef Mack as I am sure that one day soon I will need them. Thank you so much for your help. Regards Ian SM2K 414 Crusader (2003) Larnaca.
On 18/10/2017 18:20, Amw amw08@...
[amelyachtowners] wrote:
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Re: Whisker Pole
Hey Kent,
Can't quite tell what the problem is. If we call the long pole the whisker pole and the short one to the mast a jockey pole, I'm not understanding how the whisker pole won't connect to the jockey pole, since it seems you're saying it was the outboard end of the whisker pole, which is the block for the jib/balooner sheet, that was damaged. So, if that's the case, it seems the outboard end of the jockey pole and the inboard end of the whisker pole were not damaged and there should be no problem. What am I missing? Or was it the inboard end of the whisker pole that was damaged? Or, if it's the jockey pole that was damaged and it's now too short, it seems you'll need a new piece of tube - cheap fix and just reuse the end fittings. Then again, if it's the inboard end of the whisker pole, can you use your FINE tool with a cutting blade to cut off the aluminum extrusion and twist/pull/peel the aluminum tube to get the rivets free? Shouldn't be a problem if the whisker pole is a few inches short. Cheers, Craig SN68 - at Bridge Ponte Marine, New Bern, NC waiting for a weather window south. ---In amelyachtowners@..., <karkauai@...> wrote : Hi All. While I was sailing upthe Gulf Stream this Spring, I got caught in a microburst and one of my whisker poles dipped in the water, twisting it enough to break the rivets that hold the outboard end in the pole. I couldn't remove it and took it to a machine shop that removed it, but replaced the piece too far inboard and I discovered on the way to Jacksonville that it wouldn't stay clipped to the articulating piece on the jockey pole. I drilled out the rivets but can't budge the fitting. Has anyone had this problem, or removed the fitting? If so, how did you get it out? Thanks in advance. Kent SM 243 Kristy Jacksonville, FL UNTIL Dec 1
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Distributed vs. Conventional Electrical Systems
Frankly, Kent, a separate chase seems a bit of overkill. Probably just disconnecting the engine starting cables every few years (maybe when you replace the battery) and pulling them out of the chase for inspection then reinstalling would be more than sufficient. And I don't think I'd bother with putting fuses on the engine cables at the battery. Maybe on the house bank like Bill R did. Seemed he fused each battery pair, though, and I'd think just fusing the main cables to the 24v panel would do, like, I think, Alan did.
Craig, SN68 ---In amelyachtowners@..., <karkauai@...> wrote : Hmmm, thanks Craig. Seems to me separate chases for Pos and Neg cables would be a good idea. I guess I'd better add the fuses as others are doing. Kent
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Distributed vs. Conventional Electrical Systems
James Alton
Gabriele Antolini,
First congratulations on continuing to cruise on your Amel at 78, you are an inspiration. One of the reasons that I selected an Amel is to hopefully extend my cruising years for as long as possible. I hope that you have many more enjoyable years aboard Sunny Side. Second, I feel quite sure that you have cleared up the confusion that I had about Sueno's bow thruster and I feel a little embarrassed that I did not figure out my error until you pointed it out. I apparently either got some bad original instruction on the function of the 100 Amp breaker on the Port side of the forward cabin or wasn't paying close enough attention because it has been my understanding that this breaker needed to be on to operate the bow thruster. I have been dutifully turning the breaker on before each use of the bow thruster and of course it worked each time so all seemed fine. After reading your post I realized that I have seen the connections of the two large power cables to the bow thruster relay on the Port side of the bow thruster just as you described on your boat. So the 100 Amp breaker is not providing the power for my bow thruster, hence the electrical horsepower that I was calculating was not correct. In retrospect this makes a lot more sense, why would Amel run such large cables forward in my boat and then distribute the power through a 100 Amp breaker? I really should have caught that one... I guess this is an example of what makes this forum so valuable. I look forward to learning more about my Amel, both through reading and from spending time on the boat. I hope to meet you out there someday. Thanks. James Alton SV, Sueno, Maramu #220 Arbatax, Italy
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] staysail mizzen setup
James Alton
Miles,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
We use the Mizzen staysail on our Maramu a lot. We use the sail from about 60 degrees to about 120 degrees apparent and it often adds almost a knot of boat speed. I am pretty sure that the Staysail is larger than the mainsail in total area. It does have to come down when you need to tack or jibe but we find the sail to be pretty easy to handle and only use it in winds up to about 15 knots with the wind forward of the beam and 20 aft which keeps things manageable. We use the U bolt you mentioned ahead of the windshield for the tack. The Optimum sheeting position for the clew varies with the apparent wind angle, (sort of same as with the genoa). The end of the mizzen boom seems to work pretty well for broad reaching to open up the slot between the mizzen. This is my second season with our Maramu so hopefully you will get more detailed input from others. Best, James Alton SV Sueno, Maramu #220
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Re: staysail mizzen setup
I was hoping that it might be the artimon staysail (or secret sail as Bill likes to call it). But it is an old regular mizzen sail.
Ian
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