Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

Mark Erdos
 

John, ref: Bimini Big Game Marina – wouldn’t recommend it. It has gone way down-hill since Guy Harvey sold his interest in it, really not worth the money. I would suggest Browns. Easy in and out, not at all fancy but the price is right. You will find most cruisers stop at Browns. From Browns it is a 5 min walk to Immigration at BBGM and then Customs is a litter further up the road in the pink building (police station).

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Martinique

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 6:21 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

 

 

Hi Bill,  we are planning  to leave St.. Augustine later this week and head to Bimini, then slow cruise thru Bahamas...continuing south.  

 

We are planning on checking in at Bimini Big Game Marina and staying for a day or two.

 

John

 

On Jan 8, 2018 12:24 PM, "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Colin,

 

We actually use the second battery charger much of the time when we are charging with the genset. Our new batteries can easily take over 100 amps of charging current for much of the charge cycle.  Adding another 50 amps to the 70 the Victron makes, just makes things faster.



Anything we can do to reduce the genset duty cycle make our lives more enjoyable and the boat more self-sufficient.



So far our solar installation, charger upgrade, and switching battery types has dropped us from about three hours a day, down to an average of a bit less than one hour a day, with many days of none at all. Which should drop even further as the sun returns to the northern hemisphere :)

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

North Bimini, Bahamas

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter Replacement

James Studdart
 

Just to join in with the chorus. We also have a Victron Multiplus 24/3000/70 and it’s awesome. We’ve had it for a couple of years and so far not a single issue. I’ve networked it with a Color Control GX which also shows the solar (Victron mppt with two 330w Panasonic panels) and battery state.

Cheers,
James.
SeaBean, SM344
Moorea, French Polynesia.

On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 16:40 svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Duane,


Our Prosine was also installed by Lean Marine in 2013.  I guess we are fortunate ours is OK, despite some abuse.

Best of luck with the replacement!

Peregrinus
SM2K #350


---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :



We also installed the Xantrex Prosine 1800i.

It lasted one year and quit.  The error code was "contact the factory".  Xantrex replaced it promptly without waiting for the old one to come back, they just asked me to remove the serial number from it before we put it in the trash.  

So factory support was excellent, but I don't have much faith in it now.  It was installed by an electrician recommended by Joel Potter (Lean Marine in Ft. Lauderdale), so I don't think that was the issue.

Duane
Wanderer, SM#477


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

John Clark
 

Hi Bill,  we are planning  to leave St. Augustine later this week and head to Bimini, then slow cruise thru Bahamas...continuing south.  

We are planning on checking in at Bimini Big Game Marina and staying for a day or two.

John

On Jan 8, 2018 12:24 PM, "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Colin,


We actually use the second battery charger much of the time when we are charging with the genset. Our new batteries can easily take over 100 amps of charging current for much of the charge cycle.  Adding another 50 amps to the 70 the Victron makes, just makes things faster.

Anything we can do to reduce the genset duty cycle make our lives more enjoyable and the boat more self-sufficient.

So far our solar installation, charger upgrade, and switching battery types has dropped us from about three hours a day, down to an average of a bit less than one hour a day, with many days of none at all. Which should drop even further as the sun returns to the northern hemisphere :)

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Side Windows loose screws

Herbert Lackner
 

Thx JP, will visit you on your boat to check that :-) 

Herbert, Dock D


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Side Windows loose screws

Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...>
 

Hello Herbert,

I encountered the same problem on my SM when I recaulked the side windows.  

First option: The screws are not long enough to traverse into the wood trim on the inside of the cabin.  Procure various length M6 screws and drill through to the inside.  Pack with lots of Sikaflex and finish the work with a nice looking ball nut on the wood trim.  

Other option: this is what I did.  Make the hole bigger, but no larger in diameter than the width of the SS strip (about 14 MM if memory serves me right), clean out the wet balsa with a nail bent to 90 degrees on the end of your drill, fill with epoxy then drill a pilot hole where needed and reuse the original hardware.

Good luck,



Jean-Pierre Germain
SY Eleuthera, SM007
Shelter Bay Marina


On 8 Jan 2018, at 16:03, herbert@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Many of the screws that hold the stainless frame of the side windows are loose on our Santorin and some are not holding good enough to allow tightening. It looks as they are just screwed through to wooden panel that is used as a packing plate at the inside. Did anyone replace these screws already? What is the best solution to fix that? 


thx, Herbert

SN120 KALI MERA, Shelter Bay, Panama




Side Windows loose screws

Herbert Lackner
 

Many of the screws that hold the stainless frame of the side windows are loose on our Santorin and some are not holding good enough to allow tightening. It looks as they are just screwed through to wooden panel that is used as a packing plate at the inside. Did anyone replace these screws already? What is the best solution to fix that?


thx, Herbert

SN120 KALI MERA, Shelter Bay, Panama


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Haul out southern Sicily or Malta

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

M,

Please forward a bounced email to brouse"at"gmail dot com, and you can use the gmail address anytime

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com



On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 3:15 PM, 'Mohammad Shirloo' mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks Bill.
 
My e-mails still bounce back. It may be something on our end. Do you have an alternate e-mail I could try?
 
Mohammad and Aty
B&B Kokomo
Amel 54 #099


From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2018 12:44 PM

To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Haul out southern Sicily or Malta

 

M&A,

That email, Bill"at"AmelSchool.com, is working. I just tried it. 

I worked with both of the following people there:
Andrew Wilson - Commercial Manager awilson@yachtyard-malta.com
Joanne Mifsud - Executive Secretary jmifsud@... 
MIYY LTD | Manoel Island | Gzira | MALTA

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 12:32 PM, 'Mohammad Shirloo' mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Thanks Bill. Since we are currently wintering in Licata Sicily, this was our first choice. Good to know you had a good experience with them. Any contact people at the boat yard?
 
I tried sending you an e-mail to Bill@... and the e-mail was bounced back. What is a good e-mail for you now?
 
Mohammad and Aty
B&B Kokomo
Amel 54 #099
 


From: amelyachtowners@...m [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 6:29 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...m
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Haul out southern Sicily or Malta

 

I would choose Manoel Island Boatyard, Malta over di Ragusa, and did in 2013. Larger assortment of parts/material, more experience, and less price. 



On Jan 4, 2018 00:35, "mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...om> wrote:
 

Hi everyone;


We need to haul out in May 2018 for our bottom paint, bow Thruster and C-drive  service. We also need to change out our batteries and possibly install an arch and solar. Looking for recommendation of yards and outfits that you have worked with and can recoomend in southern Sicily, Malta area. I have read most of the discussions on battery selection on the forum. Would appreciate recommended suppliers in the med or other areas that can ship to the med.


Thanks as always;



Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099









--




--
Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

greatketch@...
 

Colin,

We actually use the second battery charger much of the time when we are charging with the genset. Our new batteries can easily take over 100 amps of charging current for much of the charge cycle.  Adding another 50 amps to the 70 the Victron makes, just makes things faster.

Anything we can do to reduce the genset duty cycle make our lives more enjoyable and the boat more self-sufficient.

So far our solar installation, charger upgrade, and switching battery types has dropped us from about three hours a day, down to an average of a bit less than one hour a day, with many days of none at all. Which should drop even further as the sun returns to the northern hemisphere :)

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas



Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

greatketch@...
 

All properly designed marine battery chargers and inverters will use an isolation transformer to do the voltage step up/down.  This keeps the DC Negative separate from the AC Neutral.

A connection between AC Neutral and DC Negative from poorly designed equipment is potential corrosion problem on an Amel, and a serious disaster waiting to happen on any boat. If it is connected to a shore power plug that has reverse polarity (Hot and Neutral swapped) the entire DC system is now charged with AC Power. I am not sure what would go wrong first, but it wouldn't be pretty! If you haven't come across a marina with wiring like this, keep traveling, you eventually will!

It is always good to have to think about these things carefully enough to write them out... 

Bill Kinney
SM160 Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas


Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

John Clark
 

Bill, I just opened up the genset and found she is wired as in column "C" with T2 and T3 connected to ground.  I traced the ground strap to the frame of the genset and the Amel bonding system.  So you were correct that the generator is connected to ground.  

Based on this, I still want to think about it more, but it seems that it might be ok to connect the inverter neutral to the bonding system.  I think I read that the raw inverter output is passed first though an isolation transformer before leaving the unit.  If this is the case then a DC leakage current is unlikely....

Thanks for the brain help Bill!


Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

John Clark
 

Yes I agree the thread was getting confusing.  I pasted the part I am focusing at the moment below:

 

Bill: When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator. 

 

John:  RIGHT AND NOW THAT YOU REMIND ME I NEED TO VERIFY THE CONDUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE AC NEUTRAL (BLUE) AND AMEL BONDING (GREEN/YELLOW) WHILE THE GENERTOR IS RUNNING.  WHEN OFF THE TRANSFER SWITCH REVERTS TO SP.  SO WHEN I CHECKED IT I WAS READING RESISTANCE OF THE SP CABLE  UNPLUGGED. 

 

Bill: It can be a little tough to measure by resistance, since you have to measure with the generator running, and small voltages can make the ohm-meter nuts. I checked voltage readings with the generator running between hot and neutral (220V) and between Hot and Safety Ground (220V) and then between Neutral and Safety Ground (~0V) which is what I'd expect.

 

John: This morning I fired up the generator and checked the voltages, here is what I got with no loads energized:

 

Hot(brown) to neutral(blue)  226VAC  as expected

Hot(brown) to ground(green/yellow)  113vAC

Neutral(blue) to ground(green/yellow) 113vAC

 

My interpretation is the generator is internally wired internally as split phase(115/230) but connected to the boat only at the two hots(L1&L2 yielding 230) as in column C of the drawing attached below.  As far as the question, is it grounded, we cannot tell from voltage readings because we are just seeing the voltage across the working generator field windings.   I will have to open up the generator control head to see exactly how it is wired. 

 

I am not inclined at this point to tinker with the internal connections as the genset has been in service like this without issues for ten years.    My receipts indicate the unit was installed in France where the 230/50hz power scheme should be well understood.   

 

More cogitating.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Any owner with a Rocna 40?

VLADIMIR SONSEV
 

I have Rocna 40. It works well.

SM 345
"LIFE IS GOOD"
Vladimir


On Jan 8, 2018 08:35, "Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Ditto here!

Great anchor
The S/S did fail us a couple of times. Hence the switch. 
Porter
54-152


On Jan 7, 2018, at 9:56 PM, Sailing Island Pearl colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi Alexandra
Although the nice big Amel factory supplied s/s CQR type anchor never ever failed us, we replaced that on Island Pearl II with the Rocna 40 (galvanised steel version) for 2 years now and love it. I now sleep well every night and have never yet dragged when many with us here have dragged many times in big storms. We keep the original anchor as a spare with chain and rope ready to deploy in front port side locker.
Regards
Colin
Amel53 #332, Phuket

On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 7:45 AM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


For those who own a Rocna 40, could you please contact me.
uster@...
uster "at" rocketmail "dot" com

Thanks in advance, sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Lost on September 6 during Hurricane Irma at
IGY Simpson Bay Marina, St Maarten, NA




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Any owner with a Rocna 40?

Porter McRoberts
 

Ditto here!
Great anchor
The S/S did fail us a couple of times. Hence the switch. 
Porter
54-152


On Jan 7, 2018, at 9:56 PM, Sailing Island Pearl colin.d.streeter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Alexandra
Although the nice big Amel factory supplied s/s CQR type anchor never ever failed us, we replaced that on Island Pearl II with the Rocna 40 (galvanised steel version) for 2 years now and love it. I now sleep well every night and have never yet dragged when many with us here have dragged many times in big storms. We keep the original anchor as a spare with chain and rope ready to deploy in front port side locker.
Regards
Colin
Amel53 #332, Phuket

On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 7:45 AM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 


For those who own a Rocna 40, could you please contact me.
uster@...
uster "at" rocketmail "dot" com

Thanks in advance, sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Lost on September 6 during Hurricane Irma at
IGY Simpson Bay Marina, St Maarten, NA




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Amel decals replacement

Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...>
 

If I may add a word of caution…

Ensure the cuttings are done with TOP quality SS and that the cutting is done slowly to reduce heat production.  

Mine tend to rust quickly…. I polish them but…

Jean-Pierre
Eleuthera SM 007

On 7 Jan 2018, at 17:41, Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...> wrote:

Hello John,

Indeed my decals were replaced by SS panels.

Does look good I must admit.  :-)

Jean-Pierre Germain
SY Eleuthera, SM007
Panama



On 7 Jan 2018, at 16:28, john.biohead@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi Stephanie,

    I too need to do something with our decals.  I saw a picture of an 
SM that had replaced the side decals with polished stainless steel that looked terrific.  

I think it was SM007 Eluthera, JP's boat.  Now it is coming back, he had Emek in Turkey fabricate the panel.  I wonder if Emek has a template?  

JP, am I remembering right?

JOhn
SV Annie  SM37
St. Augustine.




Re: Amel decals replacement

Paul Osterberg
 

Stephanie 
We are interested in SS decals, so if you get a price let me know, maybe if we are a few you get a better price.

Paul on SY Kerpa SM 259, Spending the winte ashore in Lagos, Portugal 


Re: Amel decals replacement

Stephanie DiBelardino <stephiedib@...>
 

A stainless steel emblem sounds like a great idea! I will have to inquire here in Nettuno what the cost might be to cut and polish.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

Ahh Bill. That is the missing link for me. I was wondering how one gets around that specific problem with a powerful inverter/charger system like this which switches automatically. By the way we also installed the separate control unit which is up above the dishwasher next to the boat's usual AC control switches. Normally when charging and/or using ac power we have this switch switched on the the RHS "inverter" mode. 

Since installing the Victron Multi we have never used our old battery chargers, firstly since they are no longer needed other than backup, but also till I got my head around this specific loop problem you mentioned of inverter potentially powering the chargers!!
.
We will be in a marina again soon so will have an electrician take our two Dolphin battery chargers off the 2nd power output now.

Thanks again

Colin
SV Island Pearl II, Amel53 #332
Phuket. 

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 3:17 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I used the secondary output of the Victron for the second battery charger because it was the one thing that I would NEVER want be powered by the inverter pulling power from the batteries. 


For those of you who might not be familiar with the Victron setup, the Primary Output is powered by either lines power OR the inverter, while the secondary output is lines power ONLY and is shut down if lines power is not available, so it never feeds off the battery.

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas.


---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Bill

Thanks a ton for your explanations and diagram. A huge help to me and peace of mind that we have it done the same way as your system. Interesting that you sent your 2nd power out of the Victron to the 2nd charger. I had not though of that and did not use that 2nd power out feature yet.

On our previous boat, an Island Packet, we had the exact same 100% duplicated 110v and 230v systems running through a Heart2000 system 110v, and then the same Mastervolt 2000 inv-ch, so I understand how yours was done too.

All the very best to you in 2018, we intend to be in the Caribbean in 2019 Feb.

Best regards

Colin
Amel53 #332
Phuket till end Jan then Maldives till April.




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

greatketch@...
 

I used the secondary output of the Victron for the second battery charger because it was the one thing that I would NEVER want be powered by the inverter pulling power from the batteries. 

For those of you who might not be familiar with the Victron setup, the Primary Output is powered by either lines power OR the inverter, while the secondary output is lines power ONLY and is shut down if lines power is not available, so it never feeds off the battery.

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas.


---In amelyachtowners@..., <colin.d.streeter@...> wrote :

Bill

Thanks a ton for your explanations and diagram. A huge help to me and peace of mind that we have it done the same way as your system. Interesting that you sent your 2nd power out of the Victron to the 2nd charger. I had not though of that and did not use that 2nd power out feature yet.

On our previous boat, an Island Packet, we had the exact same 100% duplicated 110v and 230v systems running through a Heart2000 system 110v, and then the same Mastervolt 2000 inv-ch, so I understand how yours was done too.

All the very best to you in 2018, we intend to be in the Caribbean in 2019 Feb.

Best regards

Colin
Amel53 #332
Phuket till end Jan then Maldives till April.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

Bill

Thanks a ton for your explanations and diagram. A huge help to me and peace of mind that we have it done the same way as your system. Interesting that you sent your 2nd power out of the Victron to the 2nd charger. I had not though of that and did not use that 2nd power out feature yet.

On our previous boat, an Island Packet, we had the exact same 100% duplicated 110v and 230v systems running through a Heart2000 system 110v, and then the same Mastervolt 2000 inv-ch, so I understand how yours was done too.

All the very best to you in 2018, we intend to be in the Caribbean in 2019 Feb.

Best regards

Colin
Amel53 #332
Phuket till end Jan then Maldives till April.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 1:24 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 


This is a bit confusing...  but I added my second level comments in italics....


---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

AC Currents are (almost) never the source of stray current corrosion. To be sure, AC wiring CAN carry DC currents that can be serious sources of stray currents.  This is why AMEL separated the DC Negative from the AC Safety Ground and Bonding system.

RIGHT SO ANY FAULTS IN THE INVERTER, OR DOWNSTREAM EQUIMENT THAT RESUTS IN A DC VOLTAGE OVERLAID ON THE AC WIRING COULD AND WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO A STRAY CURRENT THROUGH THE BONDING SYSTEM...


As with many things with electrics and water... it's complicated.  If such a fault occured, it would show up as a voltage on the bonding system.  Amel's decision to avoid connecting the DC negative with the bonding system is not without its own problems. There is no free lunch...


A couple things about the AC Safety Ground.  It is normally connected to the AC Neutral only at the source of power. This is done so it can provide a low resistance path to carry any leakage current back to the source of power and safely away from people.

SO THE AC SAFETY GROUND ON THE SP CABLE IS CONNECTED TO THE AMEL BONDING SYSTEM. 


Yes.

 

When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator.  RIGHT AND NOW THAT YOU REMIND ME I NEED TO VERIFY THE CONDUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE AC NEUTRAL (BLUE) AND AMEL BONDING (GREEN/YELLOW) WHILE THE GENERTOR IS RUNNING.  WHEN OFF THE TRANSFER SWITCH REVERTS TO SP.  SO WHEN I CHECKED IT I WAS READING RESISTANCE OF THE SP CABLE  UNPLUGGED. 


It can be a little tough to measure by resistance, since you have to measure with the generator running, and small voltages can make the ohm-meter nuts. I checked voltage readings with the generator running between hot and neutral (220V) and between Hot and Safety Ground (220V) and then between Neutral and Safety Ground (~0V) which is what I'd expect.


Same with an inverter.  When it has an external source of power, it passes the AC Safety Ground on through.  When it turns on and becomes the "source of the power" it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral so any leakage from the Hot wire has a way to get back to the source of power without going through people.  RIGHT THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE DEVICE IS CONFIGURED, BUT IT HAS A DISCONNECT TO NOT CONNECT THE CHASSIS GROUND(SAFETY-GROUND/AMEL BONDING) TO THE NEUTRAL.   I WILL CHECK AGAN WHAT THE GENERATOR DOES WHEN ACTIVE.   

 

ONE THOUGHT I HAVE IT THAT THE GENERATOR IS NOT ACTIVE VERY MUCH HOWEVER, THE INVERTER WILL BE POWERED MOST OF THE TIME.  IS THE LENGTH OF TIME THE CONNECTION IS MADE A FACTOR TO CONSIDER?  


I don't see where the time would matter much, it's more a safety issue.


Without a connection back to the inverter when the inverter is the source of power, the AC Safety Ground becomes worse than useless.  If there was an insulation fault that connected the Hot wire to the case of, for example, your microwave, the AC Safety Ground would not be able to drain off that voltage because it could not supply a path for the current back to the source.  In that case the entire bonding system would become charged to the same voltage as the Hot wire with no way for the current to get back to the inverter. Now to put this in perspective, it is very unlikely on the boat that you could find a way to complete that circuit with your body...  but "very unlikely" is not the same as "not possible."

 

UNDERSTOOD.  ONE OF THE DOWNFALLS OF ISOLATING NOT CONNECTING IT.  ON US SUBMARINES WE HAD A SIMILAR SETUP FOR THREE PHASE AC WITH NO GROUND.  POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TO CREW BUT MORE RESILIENT TO DAMAGE AND ALLOWED CONTINUED OPERATION DOWNSTREAM.  NOT QUITE THE PURPOSE FOR OUR BOATS. 


It's a fuzzy situation where it stops being "safe".  A lot of small inverters have no Safety Ground connection at all.  The expectation being that there is no easy way for a human to put themselves in between the hot and neutral parts of the circuit.  A very different situation than grid power, where the Ground (literally, the earth you stand on) is the return circuit, so any contact with the hot wire is a serious problem.

 

I CERTAINLY INTEND TO THINK A BIT ON THE SET UP BEFORE IMPLEMENTING.  


I don't think what you propose is terribly dangerous, but on the other hand I think it would do nothing to prevent corrosion issues. So any safety loss comes with out a gain.




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

greatketch@...
 


This is a bit confusing...  but I added my second level comments in italics....


---In amelyachtowners@..., <john.biohead@...> wrote :

AC Currents are (almost) never the source of stray current corrosion. To be sure, AC wiring CAN carry DC currents that can be serious sources of stray currents.  This is why AMEL separated the DC Negative from the AC Safety Ground and Bonding system.

RIGHT SO ANY FAULTS IN THE INVERTER, OR DOWNSTREAM EQUIMENT THAT RESUTS IN A DC VOLTAGE OVERLAID ON THE AC WIRING COULD AND WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO A STRAY CURRENT THROUGH THE BONDING SYSTEM...


As with many things with electrics and water... it's complicated.  If such a fault occured, it would show up as a voltage on the bonding system.  Amel's decision to avoid connecting the DC negative with the bonding system is not without its own problems. There is no free lunch...


A couple things about the AC Safety Ground.  It is normally connected to the AC Neutral only at the source of power. This is done so it can provide a low resistance path to carry any leakage current back to the source of power and safely away from people.

SO THE AC SAFETY GROUND ON THE SP CABLE IS CONNECTED TO THE AMEL BONDING SYSTEM. 


Yes.

 

When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator.  RIGHT AND NOW THAT YOU REMIND ME I NEED TO VERIFY THE CONDUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE AC NEUTRAL (BLUE) AND AMEL BONDING (GREEN/YELLOW) WHILE THE GENERTOR IS RUNNING.  WHEN OFF THE TRANSFER SWITCH REVERTS TO SP.  SO WHEN I CHECKED IT I WAS READING RESISTANCE OF THE SP CABLE  UNPLUGGED. 


It can be a little tough to measure by resistance, since you have to measure with the generator running, and small voltages can make the ohm-meter nuts. I checked voltage readings with the generator running between hot and neutral (220V) and between Hot and Safety Ground (220V) and then between Neutral and Safety Ground (~0V) which is what I'd expect.


Same with an inverter.  When it has an external source of power, it passes the AC Safety Ground on through.  When it turns on and becomes the "source of the power" it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral so any leakage from the Hot wire has a way to get back to the source of power without going through people.  RIGHT THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE DEVICE IS CONFIGURED, BUT IT HAS A DISCONNECT TO NOT CONNECT THE CHASSIS GROUND(SAFETY-GROUND/AMEL BONDING) TO THE NEUTRAL.   I WILL CHECK AGAN WHAT THE GENERATOR DOES WHEN ACTIVE.   

 

ONE THOUGHT I HAVE IT THAT THE GENERATOR IS NOT ACTIVE VERY MUCH HOWEVER, THE INVERTER WILL BE POWERED MOST OF THE TIME.  IS THE LENGTH OF TIME THE CONNECTION IS MADE A FACTOR TO CONSIDER?  


I don't see where the time would matter much, it's more a safety issue.


Without a connection back to the inverter when the inverter is the source of power, the AC Safety Ground becomes worse than useless.  If there was an insulation fault that connected the Hot wire to the case of, for example, your microwave, the AC Safety Ground would not be able to drain off that voltage because it could not supply a path for the current back to the source.  In that case the entire bonding system would become charged to the same voltage as the Hot wire with no way for the current to get back to the inverter. Now to put this in perspective, it is very unlikely on the boat that you could find a way to complete that circuit with your body...  but "very unlikely" is not the same as "not possible."

 

UNDERSTOOD.  ONE OF THE DOWNFALLS OF ISOLATING NOT CONNECTING IT.  ON US SUBMARINES WE HAD A SIMILAR SETUP FOR THREE PHASE AC WITH NO GROUND.  POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TO CREW BUT MORE RESILIENT TO DAMAGE AND ALLOWED CONTINUED OPERATION DOWNSTREAM.  NOT QUITE THE PURPOSE FOR OUR BOATS. 


It's a fuzzy situation where it stops being "safe".  A lot of small inverters have no Safety Ground connection at all.  The expectation being that there is no easy way for a human to put themselves in between the hot and neutral parts of the circuit.  A very different situation than grid power, where the Ground (literally, the earth you stand on) is the return circuit, so any contact with the hot wire is a serious problem.

 

I CERTAINLY INTEND TO THINK A BIT ON THE SET UP BEFORE IMPLEMENTING.  


I don't think what you propose is terribly dangerous, but on the other hand I think it would do nothing to prevent corrosion issues. So any safety loss comes with out a gain.