Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] can't open saloon floor panels

Ryan Meador
 

That's an interesting theory. The water temperature is about 50 degrees right now. I'll give your idea a test.

Thanks,
Ryan

On Dec 2, 2017 7:08 PM, "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Ryan,


   If the boat is currently in cold Boston waters, it is possible that the heated air (with a higher relative humidity) is condensing on the colder panels and soaking in, thereby swelling the wood.   You might try removing one panel, placing it in a relatively high location so that it will see the higher temperatures/lower relative humidity and see if it returns to a size that fits the location.  If the test panel fits after drying for a few days, then you have your answer.  

Best,

James

SV Sueno 
Maramu #220

On Dec 2, 2017, at 7:05 PM, Ryan Meador ryan.d.meador@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


There aren't any hinges; all of the panels lift out.

I also just this evening realized that the panel outboard of the table is stuck too, but the ones directly beneath the table are easy to open.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA



On Dec 2, 2017 12:34 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Ryan,

Have you checked the hinges,

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 02 December 2017 at 11:51 "Ryan Meador ryan.d.meador@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...om> wrote:

 

 

Hi all,
My SM has the wooden floor panels, not the blue ones.  A while after I bought the boat in the beginning of August, I noticed the smoothly-opening floor panels that run the length of the saloon were taking some effort to open.  I chalked it up to humidity.  But it's been getting worse, to the point where I now need to use a tool to grab onto the holes to lift them as my fingers aren't strong enough.  None of the other floor panels on the boat are affected.  My hygrometer has been reading 45-55% for the last few weeks (since I started paying attention) so even if it was humidity, I would have expected them to dry out again by now.  The temperature has dropped a bit, but I've been keeping the boat heated.  The panels are properly aligned with the rubber stripes in the floor.  Any idea what has happened?  I'd rather not shave them down without understanding it.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA

 


 






Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] can't open saloon floor panels

James Alton
 

Ryan,

   If the boat is currently in cold Boston waters, it is possible that the heated air (with a higher relative humidity) is condensing on the colder panels and soaking in, thereby swelling the wood.   You might try removing one panel, placing it in a relatively high location so that it will see the higher temperatures/lower relative humidity and see if it returns to a size that fits the location.  If the test panel fits after drying for a few days, then you have your answer.  

Best,

James

SV Sueno 
Maramu #220

On Dec 2, 2017, at 7:05 PM, Ryan Meador ryan.d.meador@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


There aren't any hinges; all of the panels lift out.

I also just this evening realized that the panel outboard of the table is stuck too, but the ones directly beneath the table are easy to open.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA



On Dec 2, 2017 12:34 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Ryan,

Have you checked the hinges,

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 02 December 2017 at 11:51 "Ryan Meador ryan.d.meador@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

Hi all,
My SM has the wooden floor panels, not the blue ones.  A while after I bought the boat in the beginning of August, I noticed the smoothly-opening floor panels that run the length of the saloon were taking some effort to open.  I chalked it up to humidity.  But it's been getting worse, to the point where I now need to use a tool to grab onto the holes to lift them as my fingers aren't strong enough.  None of the other floor panels on the boat are affected.  My hygrometer has been reading 45-55% for the last few weeks (since I started paying attention) so even if it was humidity, I would have expected them to dry out again by now.  The temperature has dropped a bit, but I've been keeping the boat heated.  The panels are properly aligned with the rubber stripes in the floor.  Any idea what has happened?  I'd rather not shave them down without understanding it.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA

 


 






Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] can't open saloon floor panels

Ryan Meador
 

There aren't any hinges; all of the panels lift out.

I also just this evening realized that the panel outboard of the table is stuck too, but the ones directly beneath the table are easy to open.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA



On Dec 2, 2017 12:34 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Ryan,

Have you checked the hinges,

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 02 December 2017 at 11:51 "Ryan Meador ryan.d.meador@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

Hi all,
My SM has the wooden floor panels, not the blue ones.  A while after I bought the boat in the beginning of August, I noticed the smoothly-opening floor panels that run the length of the saloon were taking some effort to open.  I chalked it up to humidity.  But it's been getting worse, to the point where I now need to use a tool to grab onto the holes to lift them as my fingers aren't strong enough.  None of the other floor panels on the boat are affected.  My hygrometer has been reading 45-55% for the last few weeks (since I started paying attention) so even if it was humidity, I would have expected them to dry out again by now.  The temperature has dropped a bit, but I've been keeping the boat heated.  The panels are properly aligned with the rubber stripes in the floor.  Any idea what has happened?  I'd rather not shave them down without understanding it.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA

 


 



Re: Solar Panel Location

Mark Isaac
 

Thanks to all for your input on solar panel location as well as your experience with Atlantic Towers and Emek.  Bill, I would welcome the opportunity to see your installation.  I'll be back in FLL tomorrow mid morning until Tuesday evening.  Please email me when you have a moment at isaac_zero two nine zero six at yahoo.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Bow Thuster Control Box

JOHN HAYES
 

Hi Chuck

Count me in

My Santorin is 1991 vintage

John Hayes 
Nga Waka
Wellington 
New Zealand


On 3/12/2017, at 9:21 AM, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Does the same box exist on the 54!

If so count me in too. 
Thanks!
Porter
54-152
S/V Ibis
Ragged Islands, Bahamas

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Dec 2, 2017, at 1:38 PM, 'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I’m not sure I have the same box but if I do, I’d like to keep a spare since they are now unavailable.

Can someone post a picture of what we are talking about, please.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising – St. Lucia, the crime island

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 1:33 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Bow Thuster Control Box

 

 

I too would join in a group order for a spare bow thruster control box.  

 

Derick Gates

SM2K#400

Brava

Currently on the hard in Bailey's boatyard, Falmouth Harbour, Antigua


Re: Charcoal Filter

Paul Osterberg
 

Duane
Do not know how much it reduce the flow, but we added a similar filter and filter all the freash water. We have not notice any problem at all with the water flow, we have a Jabsco par 5 pump.
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Bow Thuster Control Box

Porter McRoberts
 

Does the same box exist on the 54!
If so count me in too. 
Thanks!
Porter
54-152
S/V Ibis
Ragged Islands, Bahamas

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Dec 2, 2017, at 1:38 PM, 'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I’m not sure I have the same box but if I do, I’d like to keep a spare since they are now unavailable.

Can someone post a picture of what we are talking about, please.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising – St. Lucia, the crime island

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 1:33 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Bow Thuster Control Box

 

 

I too would join in a group order for a spare bow thruster control box.  

 

Derick Gates

SM2K#400

Brava

Currently on the hard in Bailey's boatyard, Falmouth Harbour, Antigua


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Diaphragm Bilge Pump failure.

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Bill,

Have to agree with you. No bilge pump of a size you could fit in a boat would deal with water coming in from a hole in the hull. Anyone who has in water swapped or removed for cleaning a through hull transducer would have any illusions about this. The volume of water gushing in from this very moderate hole is sobering. Henri's watertight bulkheads are the only sensible protection from a breach in the hull. 

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 03 December 2017 at 06:58 "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

I had a boss once whose favorite line was, "Show me the data." I learned a lot from him...  

Ratings are all fine and good, but the real world can always change things. So I just timed how long it took my Amel original diaphragm pump to move 12 liters of water: 42 seconds. A flow rate of: 17 liters per minute (or 4.5GPM)  I have read the "32 l/min" number several times, but don't know its original source.

Whenever I see someone write down a number and proclaim that "this is the minimum capacity for a bilge pump for this boat" I wonder how they came up with that number.  

I think of bilge pumps in two categories:  Dewatering and emergency.  

Dewatering is just the normal day to day emptying of the bilge.  On most boats that would include shaft drip, rain water leaks, etc.  We don't have those, so for us it is just the routine emptying of gray water from the sump.   The primary pump selection issue here is not about capacity, but rather picking a pump that will not choke on any lumpy bits from the galley sink.  Given that requirement, we do not have a lot of options. 

An emergency bilge pump is another matter. Any hole in the hull below the water line will overwhelm most bilge pumps.  8gpm is a good number for a 1/2 inch hole, and the flow rate rises with the square of the diameter... so a 1 inch hole would be 24gpm, and a 2 inch hole pushes 100gpm.  That's a LOT.

A boat like an Amel with watertight bulkheads has an extra issue.  Any hole outside the engine room can not drain to the bilge anywhere near as fast as water comes in from the ocean.  So the size of the pump in the sump doesn't matter.

My own personnel takeaway is that a bilge pump that could actually keep up with a significant hole in the boat (on an Amel, maybe a broken engine raw water hose?) is larger than any recommendation I have seen, and borders on impractical.  If you have a hole in the boat too big to plug with your thumb, and you can't stop it, you are sinking--eventually. (Watertight bulkheads aside, of course!)

Ratings on centrifugal bilge pumps are a pretty sad joke. They are all rated at Zero head, and that's just plain goofy. Most of them don't even supply a curve of output flow vs head, and even if they did most people would not know how to interpret it ("pressure head" is much more complex than just discharge height.)  In a real world installation you'd be very lucky to get even 1/4 of the flow rate listed on the box.

All that is a very long winded way of saying... With all the variables and considerations I don't pretend to know what a "proper" capacity is. I do not even know what kind of logical criteria one would use to set one.  I have seen many "authorities" and committees proclaim a number, but their logic is either (arguably) flawed or not specified.

On Harmonie we have: 
  • The standard Amel installed diaphragm bilge pump,  
  • A bilge level alarm,
  • An identical spare electric pump ready to plug in as a replacement if needed, 
  • The Amel installed manual bilge pump, 
  • And a portable manual bilge pump for really serious emergencies.  
I'm comfortable with that list.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL







---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   Thanks for the confirmation on the duckbills being nitrile in the Sealand pump.  I suspect that this pump would be great for pumping the sump.   What is you opinion about the capacity of this pump in regards to being the sole electric bilge pump aboard?   I am used to installing centrifugal pumps in boats this size with ratings 10X higher.  I think something as small as a 1/2” hole 4’ below the WL would flow almost 8 GPM….

James

Maramu #220 

On Dec 1, 2017, at 10:58 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

The only rubber in the T-series pumps in contact with pumped water are the joker valves.  


The sealand joker valves (they call them "duckbill valves") are made of nitrile rubber, which is good for oil contact.

 

 


 


Amel 54 dishwasher failure (and solution)

Sv Garulfo
 

Of potential interest to 54-ians with a Dometic dishwasher. 

We had an issue with it, leaking heavily and showing error code 10 (issue with the water intake, as per the manual). 

The problem was that the conduit to some sort of "there is enough water in the dishwasher" captor was very dirty, preventing it from stopping the inflow until the no-intake water error was reported. Unfortunately that means the overflow too. 

The solution was simply to clean that conduit, after removing the plastic ring that covers it at the bottom of the inside of the dishwasher (3 screws) underneath the metal filter. No need to remove the dishwasher from its location to do that, although we did to track to issue down, and it's fairly straightforward. 

Hope that will help 


Thomas & Soraya
Garulfo
Amel 54 #122
Gran Canaria, Canary Island, Spain 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Bow Thuster Control Box

Mark Erdos
 

I’m not sure I have the same box but if I do, I’d like to keep a spare since they are now unavailable.

Can someone post a picture of what we are talking about, please.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising – St. Lucia, the crime island

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 1:33 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Bow Thuster Control Box

 

 

I too would join in a group order for a spare bow thruster control box.  

 

Derick Gates

SM2K#400

Brava

Currently on the hard in Bailey's boatyard, Falmouth Harbour, Antigua


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Diaphragm Bilge Pump failure.

greatketch@...
 

I had a boss once whose favorite line was, "Show me the data." I learned a lot from him...  

Ratings are all fine and good, but the real world can always change things. So I just timed how long it took my Amel original diaphragm pump to move 12 liters of water: 42 seconds. A flow rate of: 17 liters per minute (or 4.5GPM)  I have read the "32 l/min" number several times, but don't know its original source.

Whenever I see someone write down a number and proclaim that "this is the minimum capacity for a bilge pump for this boat" I wonder how they came up with that number.  

I think of bilge pumps in two categories:  Dewatering and emergency.  

Dewatering is just the normal day to day emptying of the bilge.  On most boats that would include shaft drip, rain water leaks, etc.  We don't have those, so for us it is just the routine emptying of gray water from the sump.   The primary pump selection issue here is not about capacity, but rather picking a pump that will not choke on any lumpy bits from the galley sink.  Given that requirement, we do not have a lot of options. 

An emergency bilge pump is another matter. Any hole in the hull below the water line will overwhelm most bilge pumps.  8gpm is a good number for a 1/2 inch hole, and the flow rate rises with the square of the diameter... so a 1 inch hole would be 24gpm, and a 2 inch hole pushes 100gpm.  That's a LOT.

A boat like an Amel with watertight bulkheads has an extra issue.  Any hole outside the engine room can not drain to the bilge anywhere near as fast as water comes in from the ocean.  So the size of the pump in the sump doesn't matter.

My own personnel takeaway is that a bilge pump that could actually keep up with a significant hole in the boat (on an Amel, maybe a broken engine raw water hose?) is larger than any recommendation I have seen, and borders on impractical.  If you have a hole in the boat too big to plug with your thumb, and you can't stop it, you are sinking--eventually. (Watertight bulkheads aside, of course!)

Ratings on centrifugal bilge pumps are a pretty sad joke. They are all rated at Zero head, and that's just plain goofy. Most of them don't even supply a curve of output flow vs head, and even if they did most people would not know how to interpret it ("pressure head" is much more complex than just discharge height.)  In a real world installation you'd be very lucky to get even 1/4 of the flow rate listed on the box.

All that is a very long winded way of saying... With all the variables and considerations I don't pretend to know what a "proper" capacity is. I do not even know what kind of logical criteria one would use to set one.  I have seen many "authorities" and committees proclaim a number, but their logic is either (arguably) flawed or not specified.

On Harmonie we have: 
  • The standard Amel installed diaphragm bilge pump,  
  • A bilge level alarm,
  • An identical spare electric pump ready to plug in as a replacement if needed, 
  • The Amel installed manual bilge pump, 
  • And a portable manual bilge pump for really serious emergencies.  
I'm comfortable with that list.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL







---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   Thanks for the confirmation on the duckbills being nitrile in the Sealand pump.  I suspect that this pump would be great for pumping the sump.   What is you opinion about the capacity of this pump in regards to being the sole electric bilge pump aboard?   I am used to installing centrifugal pumps in boats this size with ratings 10X higher.  I think something as small as a 1/2” hole 4’ below the WL would flow almost 8 GPM….

James

Maramu #220 

On Dec 1, 2017, at 10:58 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

The only rubber in the T-series pumps in contact with pumped water are the joker valves.  


The sealand joker valves (they call them "duckbill valves") are made of nitrile rubber, which is good for oil contact.



Charcoal Filter

Duane Siegfri
 

I'm planning on adding a charcoal filter prior to the watermaker to remove chlorine.  As long as I'm adding it, it seems reasonable to filter all the fresh water for the boat.


Does anyone have an idea how much a 10" carbon block filter (like this: https://airwaterice.com/filters/10-5-micron-carbon-block.html) would reduce the flow and pressure at the faucets in the boat?  We have the Marco UP3 4gpm fresh water pump and it seems to do well without the filter.  I just don't know how much reduction in flow I'll have with the carbon filter in line.  


I checked the flow at the kitchen tap at 1.5gpm, but the pump was not running at full speed so it's hard to tell what it could pump with more head loss from the filter.  In the forward head it was at 3.0gpm.  With both the kitchen and fwd head faucet on the flow from the galley faucet total flow was 3.2gpm.  Looking at the Flow vs. Pressure diagram from Marco, the pump is operating toward the high pressure side of the pump curve.


Duane

Wanderer, SM#477

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] can't open saloon floor panels

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Ryan,

Have you checked the hinges,

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 02 December 2017 at 11:51 "Ryan Meador ryan.d.meador@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Hi all,
My SM has the wooden floor panels, not the blue ones.  A while after I bought the boat in the beginning of August, I noticed the smoothly-opening floor panels that run the length of the saloon were taking some effort to open.  I chalked it up to humidity.  But it's been getting worse, to the point where I now need to use a tool to grab onto the holes to lift them as my fingers aren't strong enough.  None of the other floor panels on the boat are affected.  My hygrometer has been reading 45-55% for the last few weeks (since I started paying attention) so even if it was humidity, I would have expected them to dry out again by now.  The temperature has dropped a bit, but I've been keeping the boat heated.  The panels are properly aligned with the rubber stripes in the floor.  Any idea what has happened?  I'd rather not shave them down without understanding it.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA

 


 


Re: Bow Thuster Control Box

Derick Gates SM2K #400 Brava
 

I too would join in a group order for a spare bow thruster control box.  

Derick Gates
SM2K#400
Brava
Currently on the hard in Bailey's boatyard, Falmouth Harbour, Antigua


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Diaphragm Bilge Pump failure.

James Alton
 

Bill,

   Thanks for the confirmation on the duckbills being nitrile in the Sealand pump.  I suspect that this pump would be great for pumping the sump.   What is you opinion about the capacity of this pump in regards to being the sole electric bilge pump aboard?   I am used to installing centrifugal pumps in boats this size with ratings 10X higher.  I think something as small as a 1/2” hole 4’ below the WL would flow almost 8 GPM….

James

Maramu #220 

On Dec 1, 2017, at 10:58 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

The only rubber in the T-series pumps in contact with pumped water are the joker valves.  


The sealand joker valves (they call them "duckbill valves") are made of nitrile rubber, which is good for oil contact.



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Solar Panel Location

Patrick McAneny
 

Bill, Its been about four years since I installed mine and I think they gave a range to preload , say three to five inches . Not knowing better I chose midway four inches , I wish I had made it five.
Pat
SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Fri, Dec 1, 2017 9:41 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Solar Panel Location

 
One of the things you need to do when installing the Atlantic Arch is to be sure you "preload" the structure.  They do mention this in their instructions, but if you talk to them they REALLY emphasize the importance of this step.  If you skip this step, or under do it, the arch will be quite unstable and sway back and forth a LOT.

What they mean by this is the cut width of the arch should be several inches wider than the location of the mounting feet, and then pulling them together to complete the installation.  I think mine was about 5 inches wide, and I used a spanish windlass to pull the legs together.  My recollection of the instructions was that they didn't really talk about this much.  If you are installing one, it is worth a call to their support line to get a detailed and specific  recommendation

With the parts stressed in this way the side to side motion is dramatically r educed.  I have pretty heavy solar panels on top of mine, and I added a diagonal brace because "it can't hurt".  but I did not notice much change in motion with and without the brace.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL


Volvo D3

Courtney Gorman
 

Good morning all.  I am having a problem with my D3 volvo.  There was a near lightning strike and the CPU was fried among other things.  Now no one can seem to program the new CPU has anyone else had or heard of a problem like this and if so how did they solve it?  The mechanic has a Volvo computer and has even sent the CPU to  a US volvo dealer so far no luck.
Thanks
Courtney
Trippin Amel 54
Stuck in Brunswick




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Diaphragm Bilge Pump failure.

greatketch@...
 

The only rubber in the T-series pumps in contact with pumped water are the joker valves.  

The sealand joker valves (they call them "duckbill valves") are made of nitrile rubber, which is good for oil contact.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Solar Panel Location

greatketch@...
 

Danny, 

When I installed mine I added a larger G10 backing plate and dug out almost all the balsa core under the feet and replaced it with heavily thickened epoxy.  This has the dual benefit of preventing water intrusion into the core, and greatly increases the compression strength of the deck.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Solar Panel Location

greatketch@...
 

One of the things you need to do when installing the Atlantic Arch is to be sure you "preload" the structure.  They do mention this in their instructions, but if you talk to them they REALLY emphasize the importance of this step.  If you skip this step, or under do it, the arch will be quite unstable and sway back and forth a LOT.

What they mean by this is the cut width of the arch should be several inches wider than the location of the mounting feet, and then pulling them together to complete the installation.  I think mine was about 5 inches wide, and I used a spanish windlass to pull the legs together.  My recollection of the instructions was that they didn't really talk about this much.  If you are installing one, it is worth a call to their support line to get a detailed and specific  recommendation

With the parts stressed in this way the side to side motion is dramatically reduced.  I have pretty heavy solar panels on top of mine, and I added a diagonal brace because "it can't hurt".  but I did not notice much change in motion with and without the brace.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL