Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

Dan Carlson
 

Thanks again James.  Very helpful information.

When we bought BeBe last year, I inspected the underside wood above the chain locker and was satisfied with the condition.  Bill said all he did was keep the chain locker relatively clean and dry.  Put the anchor away clean.  Retrieving the chain at a rate that not only does not strain the windows, but also allows more water to drip off, washing the mud off.  And cleaning the locker periodically.   No treatment was applied as I recall.

In boat shopping I had seen an SM with rotted out floors under the sail lockers so it was on my mind.  

From the comments earlier the rot may be due to cracks or holes allowing water to come down from above (although so far we've been able to keep these lockers dry).   And the other consolation is that with 480 of these boats out sailing for many years now this does not seem to be a hot topic.

It looks like the Timbor is a powder, so I should be able to purchase it while I'm in the US and bring it back with me when I return to the boat next month.  Then figure out how to cleanly apply it.

Thanks and regards, Dan Carlson, SM 387, sv BeBe.











On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 2:25 PM, lokiyawl2 lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]
<amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Dan,

   I would bet that a big part of the reason that your plywood still looks good has to do with the previous care that she received.  Have you asked Bill for his advice on this matter?

   My primary line of work since 1978 has been wooden boat restorations,  so I know a little about wood and the available products.  The Wood Life was once a powerful preservative when it contained pentachlorophenol.  Unfortunately the product was also very dangerous to the environment,  the applicator and the end user.  The last time I used Wood Life it had a zinc based preservative that proved to  be completely ineffective.  The Borates (such as the product sold as Timbor) are very effective in dealing with pests such as termites because they can completely penetrate even thick pcs.  Oil based preservatives that are only applied as a surface coating can only penetrate a short distance into the wood as has been proven by testing.  Borates are an effective fungicide  (do a search), and it is a fungus that causes what is called dry rot in wood which is really misleading  because moisture must be present for the decay to progress.  Borates allow what is basically paper to be used as insulation that can last for decades and not rot or be eaten by some critter.  They penetrate because they are water bourne and wood is all about moving water around.  Also when you apply an oil based product you will seal the surface that will prevent additional coatings from soaking in.  With the Borate you can reapply anytime with no surface prep.  While a preservative can certainly extend the life of Wood,  keeping the wood dry I think is still the most effective way to preserve it.  Insure that there are no holes or cracks in the deck lockers that could admit water and do all that you can to keep the humidity down in the anchor locker.

   But yes, Timbor might be hard to get in Trinidad but I am pretty sure that Amazon carries it.  Perhaps they could ship it to you.

Best of luck,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220



Sent from Samsung tablet.

-------- Original message --------
From: "'dancarlson367@...' dancarlson367@... [amelyachtowners]"
Date: 10/14/17 18:41 (GMT+01:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 

Thanks for the advice James,  I agree with you regarding the linseed oil.  In the US there are some penetrating products like Wood Life and Thompson's Water Seal, or perhaps deck sealants.  But I'm not sure what I can find down in Trinidad or Grenada.  


Timbor (Borate) is more for pest control.  

After 14 years, the wood did not look too bad, but I'd like to help it survive another 10 or 20?

Thanks and regards, Dan Carlson, SM #387, sv BeBe. 


 

Dan,

  Odds are that any bare wood in the chain locker area will have at least some moisture in it which makes oil based coatings problematic.  If your desire is to try and prevent the wood from rotting a good choice might be a Borate based solution such as Timbor.  Timbor comes in a powder form which you mix with plain water, it has low toxicity to humans and almost no odour.  It also kills bugs albeit slowly.   There is another mixture that uses ethelyne glycol and Borate which is more effective but I don't like the smell of glycol and it is quite poisonous to humans and pets.  Linseed oil will turn black quickly in such a humid environment and I have serious doubts about it being a preservative.  Some of the older copper based preservatives were reasonably effective for a surface treatment but the penetration is poor.  The Borate on the other hand will over time will work i t's way completely through the wood.   The best place to apply the solution is to the edge end grain of the plywood if you can get in there with a spray bottle or something.

  If you can find a way to keep the humidity down in the locker, it will certainly extend the life of the plywood with or without a treatment.

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220



Sent from Samsung tablet.

-------- Original message --------
From: "'dancarlson367@...' dancarlson367@... [amelyachtowners]" < amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 10/12/17 15:12 (GMT+01:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 

Has anyone used linseed oil or other wood preservative to treat their exposed wood above the chain locker?  


I inspected my wood on BeBe, SM387, before leaving for the summer and have it on my list to apply something protective when I return.

Dan Carlson


 

Bill, I had the same problem a few years ago. I cut the floors out leaving about an inch of tabbing all the way around. Then cut another piece of plywood to fit , resting on the tabbing. I epoxied the bottom of the plywood first , then installed it and glassed it into place . I glassed the entire surface , rather than simply painting it. It was nice meeting you in Annapolis.

Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Wed, Oct 11, 2017 11:59 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 
The plywood soles of Harmonie's bow lockers are seriously rotten.  I was kind of surprised to see that the bottoms of these plywood sheets (i.e., the top of the chain locker) were "naked", without fiberglass sheathing.  I suspect exposure to the constant damp of the chain locker for 20 years was the start of the problem.

Replacement seems to be a fairly straight forward, fiberglass project, but if anyone else has had this problem and has any hints or "gothcha's" to watch for, I'd love to hear them!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines

Mike Ondra
 

Willem,
I will not be on Aletes for a week or two to verify the Vetus name on the mounts. I do know that these replacement mounts have worked well for two years since replacement.

Mike Ondra
ALETES   SM2000 #240

Rock Hall, MD Antigua bound November


On Oct 16, 2017, at 6:11 AM, 'Willem J. Kroes' kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Mike,

 

I just contacted Vetus in the Netherlands and they told me that they specify those hydro mounts for max 60 kg weight each and for a maximum of 35 hp engines. They developed the engine mount for their 3 cylinder (Mitsubishi) boat engines.

 

Is the name ‘VETUS’ on the rubber on your mounts? What is your experience with these mounts?

 

Kind regards,

 

Willem Kroes

 

SM2k #351 “Kavanga”

 

 

Van: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Verzonden: zaterdag 14 oktober 2017 23:07
Aan: amelyachtowners@...
Onderwerp: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines

 

 

Hello Willem,

This is a Vetus Hydraulic Dampened Engine Mount. We purchased these in 2016 from Jamestown Distributors in Bristol, RI, USA for $169 each.

Mike Ondra

ALETES   SM2000 #240

Rock Hall, MD Antigua bound November

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 6:56 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines [1 Attachment]

 

 

[Attachment(s) from kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] included below]

Hi all,

 

The engine mounts between the steel cradle on which the engine and gearbox are mounted on my SM # 351 need te be replaced by new ones. After consulting Mr. Olivier Beaute it turned out that Amel used the older engine mounts, called 'Suspension hydro mounts for Perkins M80', also for a period of time after they changed from installing Volvo Penta  to Yanmar engines.

 

The importing company of Perkins in the Netherlands can't recognise these mounts from a photo that I also attach to this message.

 

Can anybody recognise this type of engine mount?

 

Thanks in advance for your reactions!

 

Willem Kroes

 

SM 2k #351 "Kavanga"

 

 

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines

Mike Ondra
 

Willem.
I too had heard this. But after deeper research felt comfortable with these particular mounts. unfortunately I do not recall exactly the research process I went through. The mounts are identical to the original from Amel, always a good thing to do. I would be concerned about heavier mounts being too stiff and therefore not absorbing vibration as well.

Mike Ondra
ALETES   SM2000 #240
Rock Hall, MD Antigua bound November

On Oct 16, 2017, at 5:53 AM, 'Willem J. Kroes' kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Mike for the information. I noticed this engine mount from Vetus earlier on the web, but I thought (and I also read it somewhere) that these mounts are for 2 and 3 cylinder and lighter engines.

 

Do you know if they also produce more heavier ones?

 

Kind regards,

 

Willem Kroes

 

Van: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Verzonden: zaterdag 14 oktober 2017 23:07
Aan: amelyachtowners@...
Onderwerp: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines

 

 

Hello Willem,

This is a Vetus Hydraulic Dampened Engine Mount. We purchased these in 2016 from Jamestown Distributors in Bristol, RI, USA for $169 each.

Mike Ondra

ALETES   SM2000 #240

Rock Hall, MD Antigua bound November

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 6:56 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines [1 Attachment]

 

 

[Attachment(s) from kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] included below]

Hi all,

 

The engine mounts between the steel cradle on which the engine and gearbox are mounted on my SM # 351 need te be replaced by new ones. After consulting Mr. Olivier Beaute it turned out that Amel used the older engine mounts, called 'Suspension hydro mounts for Perkins M80', also for a period of time after they changed from installing Volvo Penta  to Yanmar engines.

 

The importing company of Perkins in the Netherlands can't recognise these mounts from a photo that I also attach to this message.

 

Can anybody recognise this type of engine mount?

 

Thanks in advance for your reactions!

 

Willem Kroes

 

SM 2k #351 "Kavanga"

 

 

 

 


Re: Main furler motor issue

rossirossix4
 

Agree on everyone's comments about the brushes.  I am sure this is (widely?) known by many of us but in a sailing situation we have always--100%--had luck--both on our Santorin and our SM--with tapping/thumping the motor where it attaches to the white housing with a rubber mallet.  The idea is to shake the motor a bit without dislodging the white plastic protection housing.  This always seems to let let the motor operate an additional week (problem is usually carbon dust buildup from the brushes).  Not a long term fix but this can make a BIG difference in certain situations.  Also give you an instantaneous diagnosis of the problem.

Bob, KAIMI SM429, Previous SN86


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines

Thomas Peacock
 

Hi Willem,

All this is ringing a bell in my head. There have been discussions about this in the past. I believe (69 year old brain) that the Vetus mounts seem undersized because they are measured as such with a standard engine with a prop shaft, which puts forward force on the entire unit. Amels, with their wonderful C-drive, don’t have that problem.

If you do a search on “Vetus” on this site, keep going back to June 2016, which is when we replaced our mounts. There is a wealth of information there from other owners.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay, soon (not soon enough) Antigua


On Oct 16, 2017, at 6:11 AM, 'Willem J. Kroes' kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hi Mike,

 

I just contacted Vetus in the Netherlands and they told me that they specify those hydro mounts for max 60 kg weight each and for a maximum of 35 hp engines. They developed the engine mount for their 3 cylinder (Mitsubishi) boat engines.

 

Is the name ‘VETUS’ on the rubber on your mounts? What is your experience with these mounts?

 

Kind regards,

 

Willem Kroes

 

SM2k #351 “Kavanga”

 

 

Van: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...] 
Verzonden: zaterdag 14 oktober 2017 23:07
Aan: amelyachtowners@...
Onderwerp: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines

 

  

Hello Willem,

This is a Vetus Hydraulic Dampened Engine Mount. We purchased these in 2016 from Jamestown Distributors in Bristol, RI, USA for $169 each.

Mike Ondra

ALETES   SM2000 #240

Rock Hall, MD Antigua bound November

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...] 
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 6:56 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines [1 Attachment]

 

 

[Attachment(s) from kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] included below]

Hi all,

 

The engine mounts between the steel cradle on which the engine and gearbox are mounted on my SM # 351 need te be replaced by new ones. After consulting Mr. Olivier Beaute it turned out that Amel used the older engine mounts, called 'Suspension hydro mounts for Perkins M80', also for a period of time after they changed from installing Volvo Penta  to Yanmar engines.

 

The importing company of Perkins in the Netherlands can't recognise these mounts from a photo that I also attach to this message.

 

Can anybody recognise this type of engine mount?

 

Thanks in advance for your reactions!

 

Willem Kroes

 

SM 2k #351 "Kavanga"

 

 

 

 


<~WRD000.jpg>


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Main furler motor issue

Sv Garulfo
 

Peter,
"Unscrew conventional way", You mean like a jar (black against white) or pop it out once the screws on the white covers are off?
Thanks



On 16 Oct 2017, at 10:39, Peter Forbes ppsforbes@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

The black end caps unscrew the conventional way.


Peter
Peter Forbes
Carango
Amel. 54#035


On 16 Oct 2017, at 10:26, Garulfo sv svgarulfo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello
Thanks all for your input. 
We are onto removing the furler motor. 
Before we disconnect the electrics, any tips on how to remove the black end caps. 

Thank you
 
Fair winds

Thomas 
Garulfo 
Amel 54 #122
Tangier, Morocco 

On 15 Oct 2017, at 09:36, simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Thomas, I agree with those who suggest checking the brushes. In my experience they are this number one culprit. You have checked the breakers. I have found if I try to furl under too much load the breaker in the port forward locker in the forward cabin pops.
The brushes can stick because of accumulated carbon dust from wear. Remove them and give the motor a blow out with an air gun if available. The contact surface can get  very glossy and when they are out I give that area a quick rub with sand paper.
Regards
Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On 15 Oct 2017 20:42, "SV Garulfo svgarulfo@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi all,

The main furler motor stopped working yesterday. We wanted to unfurl the dail and it wouldn't go. The outhaul is ok. 
Battery levels are fine (and the engine alternator was still running and producing amps at the time).
The command produces a click sound in what I think is the solenoid. 
The circuit breaker marked "mast" in the forward cabin above the centre bookshelf /wardrobe is on (as are the other breakers there for "boom", etc).

Any further advice before I tinker any further? I would check the motor itself but having never done it, I'd rather be cautious with little local help at hand. 

Thanks 

Fair winds

Thomas 
Garulfo 
Amel 54 #122
Tangier, Morocco 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines

Willem Kroes
 

Hi Mike,

 

I just contacted Vetus in the Netherlands and they told me that they specify those hydro mounts for max 60 kg weight each and for a maximum of 35 hp engines. They developed the engine mount for their 3 cylinder (Mitsubishi) boat engines.

 

Is the name ‘VETUS’ on the rubber on your mounts? What is your experience with these mounts?

 

Kind regards,

 

Willem Kroes

 

SM2k #351 “Kavanga”

 

 

Van: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Verzonden: zaterdag 14 oktober 2017 23:07
Aan: amelyachtowners@...
Onderwerp: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines

 

 

Hello Willem,

This is a Vetus Hydraulic Dampened Engine Mount. We purchased these in 2016 from Jamestown Distributors in Bristol, RI, USA for $169 each.

Mike Ondra

ALETES   SM2000 #240

Rock Hall, MD Antigua bound November

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 6:56 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines [1 Attachment]

 

 

[Attachment(s) from kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] included below]

Hi all,

 

The engine mounts between the steel cradle on which the engine and gearbox are mounted on my SM # 351 need te be replaced by new ones. After consulting Mr. Olivier Beaute it turned out that Amel used the older engine mounts, called 'Suspension hydro mounts for Perkins M80', also for a period of time after they changed from installing Volvo Penta  to Yanmar engines.

 

The importing company of Perkins in the Netherlands can't recognise these mounts from a photo that I also attach to this message.

 

Can anybody recognise this type of engine mount?

 

Thanks in advance for your reactions!

 

Willem Kroes

 

SM 2k #351 "Kavanga"

 

 

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines

Willem Kroes
 

Thanks Mike for the information. I noticed this engine mount from Vetus earlier on the web, but I thought (and I also read it somewhere) that these mounts are for 2 and 3 cylinder and lighter engines.

 

Do you know if they also produce more heavier ones?

 

Kind regards,

 

Willem Kroes

 

Van: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Verzonden: zaterdag 14 oktober 2017 23:07
Aan: amelyachtowners@...
Onderwerp: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines

 

 

Hello Willem,

This is a Vetus Hydraulic Dampened Engine Mount. We purchased these in 2016 from Jamestown Distributors in Bristol, RI, USA for $169 each.

Mike Ondra

ALETES   SM2000 #240

Rock Hall, MD Antigua bound November

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 6:56 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Which engine mount model was used on SM's with Volvo engines [1 Attachment]

 

 

[Attachment(s) from kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] included below]

Hi all,

 

The engine mounts between the steel cradle on which the engine and gearbox are mounted on my SM # 351 need te be replaced by new ones. After consulting Mr. Olivier Beaute it turned out that Amel used the older engine mounts, called 'Suspension hydro mounts for Perkins M80', also for a period of time after they changed from installing Volvo Penta  to Yanmar engines.

 

The importing company of Perkins in the Netherlands can't recognise these mounts from a photo that I also attach to this message.

 

Can anybody recognise this type of engine mount?

 

Thanks in advance for your reactions!

 

Willem Kroes

 

SM 2k #351 "Kavanga"

 

 

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Main furler motor issue

Peter Forbes
 

The black end caps unscrew the conventional way.

Peter
Peter Forbes
Carango
Amel. 54#035


On 16 Oct 2017, at 10:26, Garulfo sv svgarulfo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello
Thanks all for your input. 
We are onto removing the furler motor. 
Before we disconnect the electrics, any tips on how to remove the black end caps. 

Thank you
 
Fair winds

Thomas 
Garulfo 
Amel 54 #122
Tangier, Morocco 

On 15 Oct 2017, at 09:36, simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Thomas, I agree with those who suggest checking the brushes. In my experience they are this number one culprit. You have checked the breakers. I have found if I try to furl under too much load the breaker in the port forward locker in the forward cabin pops.
The brushes can stick because of accumulated carbon dust from wear. Remove them and give the motor a blow out with an air gun if available. The contact surface can get  very glossy and when they are out I give that area a quick rub with sand paper.
Regards
Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On 15 Oct 2017 20:42, "SV Garulfo svgarulfo@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi all,

The main furler motor stopped working yesterday. We wanted to unfurl the dail and it wouldn't go. The outhaul is ok. 
Battery levels are fine (and the engine alternator was still running and producing amps at the time).
The command produces a click sound in what I think is the solenoid. 
The circuit breaker marked "mast" in the forward cabin above the centre bookshelf /wardrobe is on (as are the other breakers there for "boom", etc).

Any further advice before I tinker any further? I would check the motor itself but having never done it, I'd rather be cautious with little local help at hand. 

Thanks 

Fair winds

Thomas 
Garulfo 
Amel 54 #122
Tangier, Morocco 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Main furler motor issue

Sv Garulfo
 

Hello
Thanks all for your input. 
We are onto removing the furler motor. 
Before we disconnect the electrics, any tips on how to remove the black end caps. 

Thank you
 
Fair winds

Thomas 
Garulfo 
Amel 54 #122
Tangier, Morocco 

On 15 Oct 2017, at 09:36, simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Thomas, I agree with those who suggest checking the brushes. In my experience they are this number one culprit. You have checked the breakers. I have found if I try to furl under too much load the breaker in the port forward locker in the forward cabin pops.
The brushes can stick because of accumulated carbon dust from wear. Remove them and give the motor a blow out with an air gun if available. The contact surface can get  very glossy and when they are out I give that area a quick rub with sand paper.
Regards
Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On 15 Oct 2017 20:42, "SV Garulfo svgarulfo@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi all,

The main furler motor stopped working yesterday. We wanted to unfurl the dail and it wouldn't go. The outhaul is ok. 
Battery levels are fine (and the engine alternator was still running and producing amps at the time).
The command produces a click sound in what I think is the solenoid. 
The circuit breaker marked "mast" in the forward cabin above the centre bookshelf /wardrobe is on (as are the other breakers there for "boom", etc).

Any further advice before I tinker any further? I would check the motor itself but having never done it, I'd rather be cautious with little local help at hand. 

Thanks 

Fair winds

Thomas 
Garulfo 
Amel 54 #122
Tangier, Morocco 


Re: Main furler motor issue

webercardio <webercardio@...>
 

Thomas,
If you try to switch the motor on, does the battery monitor shows a current-  ampere consumption rising ? We had the rusted bearing in the gearbox 3 years ago and  changed to a sealed SKF bearing. You will find the type I used on a picture in the Amel folder.
All the best, good luck

Wolfgang Weber SY Elise Amel 54#162  Marina di Ragusa 

Catania Airport - on the way home


Re: Distributed vs. Conventional Electrical Systems

Alan Leslie
 

well said Bill,
BUT that's exactly what we have on our SMs....the anchor windlass, the genoa furler etc have the breakers at the "other end" of the cables that run from the house bank...and...on the standard setup, there are NO FUSES near the battery connections. 
I've put large Blue Sea fuses in the battery compartment on each of my 3 banks of 4 6V series batteries to try to address these issues.
What have you done ?
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: "Permanent" on 12v/24v

greatketch@...
 

Gary,

You wrote:  "all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle" 

That load can add up in a real hurry...  

One amp times 24 hours....  Wow!  That would add almost 25% to the entire electric load on my boat, for--nothing. If you are using the genset as your sole, or primary, power source that might not matter, but for those of us who rely mostly on solar, that's a really big deal.

However, in reading what I have to say, you should know we are probably a bit different than most... we do have a radio/CD player installed but we almost never use, so keeping its memory supplied with power is a vanishing low priority for us.  That, and we move. So radio station memory preset is kind of a worthless feature anyway.

Dealing with a "legacy" electrical system can be a nightmare.  I have done that in the past. I found the only way to keep my sanity was to handle it a bit at a time.  Every time I work on a wire run, even if it is not a new installation, I label it.  Not just at the beginning and end, but every place it is visible.  Every time you find an "abandoned" wire, rip it out.  Attacked a bit at a time, it's not an impossible task.

If you don't have a tone generating wire tracer, it might be a good investment.

Bill Kinney
SM 160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <gary@...> wrote :

Greetings!

As I've been engrossed in the bowl-of-spaghetti called "wiring" it has been a true learning/labeling/discovering/pondering process.
I've pulled a lot of 'deadwood' wiring out, upgraded and updated some of the not-so-stellar runs and connections and made a couple of (what I think are) improvements to the back-and-forth wire runs I've discovered.
The wire Chase's were all stuffed soooo tightly, and when the old equipment came out (years ago, I guess) the cabling was just left in place. It's all good now,but I have a question about the three "Sailor" 24v-to-12v converters.
They appeared to be routed through one of the three breakers in the wet locker area (on the aft wall of the nav station) but one is marked "Permanent" which would seem to indicate it's 'hot' all the time.
Except for keeping data in the CD Player, is there a compelling reason this converter could not be switched off as well? I mean it probably draws next to nothing (all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle) but every quarter of an amp counts :)
As near as I can tell, all the 12v equipment (VHF, Autohelm, B&G computer, Chain Counter, AIS and stereo system) would not suffer from a switchable supply.
Is there something aboard, either 24v or 12v, that definitely requires permanent power?
Thanks in advance. It's been a heck of a project so far .. started out chasing a lost GPS signal and have been rewiring for two weeks now. The wire-tie folks love me :)

Gary W.
S/V Adagio
Marmaris, Turkey


Re: Distributed vs. Conventional Electrical Systems

greatketch@...
 


Craig,

I think you (and Amel in the "old days") are simply missing the point of circuit breakers.  They are most certainly NOT there to protect the anchor washdown pump, or the thruster motor, or any other piece of equipment.  There is nothing a circuit breaker can do to "protect" the pump motor, or other device:  If it shorts, it has already died! If, in normal operation, it draws too much current for the wiring to support, then the wiring is undersized.

Circuit breakers are there to protect the WIRING and prevent the catastrophic results that can occur if a short occurs ANYWHERE that overloads the wiring.  This can occur from many faults, none of them likely, but all with disastrous consequences.  Wire chafe is probably the most common cause on boats, but others happen. I'd guess loose connections are a close second.  

Having a breaker at the far end of the wire, away from the battery, completely misses the point of why it is there in the first place. In my opinion, if you have a circuit breaker at the point of use of the power, you might as well just replace it with a switch--it is essentially useless. 

When I ran a service department for a large charter company, one of the annual safety meetings I ran for for my staff was to dead short circuit a 12 volt battery through 14 gauge wire.  Watching solid copper wire burst into flame and literally explode was a sobering experience for people who could easily get into the habit of thinking "its only 12 volts." It really made the point about why fuses and circuit breakers were essential.

There is nothing at all wrong with distributed CONTROL of an electrical system. That is just fancy electronics.  But... you can not "distribute" protection of the wiring. I have never heard a  good reason to run long lengths of un-fused wiring on a boat--or anywhere else.  It is just dangerous--and for absolutely no benefit.  Dangerous overloads rarely occur because of equipment problems.  They occur because of wiring faults.  Do they happen often?  No, not at all. But when they do, it is truly terrifying.  

C-zone, Ocotplex, etc, are NOT wiring protection systems.  They are not "circuit breakers".  They are CONTROL systems.  Very different animals.

I have seen several boat fires at much closer quarters than I ever hope to repeat, and most of them were electrical in origin, all from things that shouldn't have happened--but did.  

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




---In amelyachtowners@..., <sangaris@...> wrote :

I'd always thought Amel was ahead of the curve with its Distributed Electrical System. That seems to be the direction the industry is going, now with solid state circuit breakers controlled through the NMEA2000 data network. Eliminates the large industrial style circuit breaker panels of yore and adds great flexibility. Check out CAPI2, C-Zone, Octoplex, etc. Seems Amel is going backwards technologically if they're centralizing. Let's see, your anchor washdown pump shorts and rather than it tripping an adjacent breaker it's got to overload a 15 meter long cable run back to the central circuit breaker panel. To say nothing of the excess wiring to give all equipment a "home run". Must be missing something in this discussion.
Cheers, Craig SN68 Sangaris


-


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

karkauai
 

My bow lockers are notoriously damp, not sure how water is getting in.

I really don't think any chemical will help if you get a hole in the sealing layer, what ever it is.  If yours is still solid, I would glass over it after it has dried thoroughly.  That won't protect it from below, but nothing is likely to damage it from below.  If its feeling squishy at all, I'd replace with something that won't rot, or glass over a good marine plywood.
Kent
SM243
Kristy



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] "Permanent" on 12v/24v

VLADIMIR SONSEV
 

Pat,

The system that we have has some advantages. It reduces length of big gauge wires. On our system multiple users feed from one heave gauge bus.
I agree that new system is more convenient, and more traditional.

Vladimir Sonsev
Tel/Text: 202 258 1916


On Oct 15, 2017 9:49 AM, "Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Tom, There are many pieces of equipment throughout the boat located much further from the power source , with their breakers located next to the equipment. This has always concerned & puzzled  me , as we have long runs of hot wires not protected until they reach the breakers. Thursday evening Diane and I had the pleasure of having the owners of SM Kerpa , Paul and  Kerstin and Olivier as well , to our home for dinner . I asked about this set up , with breakers remotely located . Olivier pointed out that Amel now locates all the breakers in a central location , assumedly at the nav station and close to the batteries . This not only makes it much easier and quicker to locate the breakers , but provides protection from dead shorts . I think it was very good for Amel to adopt this electrical configuration . On our model , I think we need to assure that wires are bundled with minimum  movement and protected from chafe. Obviously, if Amel had a do over on our model , they would adopt this new configuration . We may get down to Rock Hall before , Nov , if so we"ll stop by .

Have a good trip,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Peacock peacock8491@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 15, 2017 8:46 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] "Permanent" on 12v/24v

 
One last thought or two:

To answer your question directly, no other reason to have an always hot Sailor transformer.

As a question to you and others:

I have just replaced the battery monitor due to the original unit going bad after 18 years (they don’t make them like they used to). Tracing the wiring, there are two permanently hot wires going from the battery to the monitor; each wire is fused, located in the battery compartment. The monitor instructions indicate that the fuses should indeed be placed as close as possible to the batteries. That all seems great and as it should be.

I was concerned about whether the permanent Sailor unit was fused in a similar fashion. However, the wiring as it exists goes through the breaker (but somehow bypassing it) in the hanging closet. That breaker dos not cut off power to the Sailor unit. The Sailor unit does have fuse, as per Olivier. Am I correct to assume that the lack of a fuse more proximal to the battery is still safe?

Thanks.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


On Oct 15, 2017, at 4:04 AM, gary@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Greetings!

As I've been engrossed in the bowl-of-spaghetti called "wiring" it has been a true learning/labeling/discovering/pondering process.
I've pulled a lot of 'deadwood' wiring out, upgraded and updated some of the not-so-stellar runs and connections and made a couple of (what I think are) improvements to the back-and-forth wire runs I've discovered.  
The wire Chase's were all stuffed soooo tightly, and when the old equipment came out (years ago, I guess) the cabling was just left in place. It's all good now,but I have a question about the three "Sailor" 24v-to-12v converters.
They appeared to be routed through one of the three breakers in the wet locker area (on the aft wall of the nav station) but one is marked "Permanent" which would seem to indicate it's 'hot' all the time.
Except for keeping data in the CD Player, is there a compelling reason this converter could not be switched off as well? I mean it probably draws next to nothing (all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle) but every quarter of an amp counts :)
As near as I can tell, all the 12v equipment (VHF, Autohelm, B&G computer, Chain Counter, AIS and stereo system) would not suffer from a switchable supply.
Is there something aboard, either 24v or 12v, that definitely requires permanent power?
Thanks in advance. It's been a heck of a project so far .. started out chasing a lost GPS signal and have been rewiring for two weeks now. The wire-tie folks love me :) 

Gary W.
S/V Adagio
Marmaris, Turkey



Distributed vs. Conventional Electrical Systems

Craig Briggs
 

I'd always thought Amel was ahead of the curve with its Distributed Electrical System. That seems to be the direction the industry is going, now with solid state circuit breakers controlled through the NMEA2000 data network. Eliminates the large industrial style circuit breaker panels of yore and adds great flexibility. Check out CAPI2, C-Zone, Octoplex, etc. Seems Amel is going backwards technologically if they're centralizing. Let's see, your anchor washdown pump shorts and rather than it tripping an adjacent breaker it's got to overload a 15 meter long cable run back to the central circuit breaker panel. To say nothing of the excess wiring to give all equipment a "home run". Must be missing something in this discussion.
Cheers, Craig SN68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sailw32@...> wrote :

Tom, There are many pieces of equipment throughout the boat located much further from the power source , with their breakers located next to the equipment. This has always concerned & puzzled  me , as we have long runs of hot wires not protected until they reach the breakers. Thursday evening Diane and I had the pleasure of having the owners of SM Kerpa , Paul and  Kerstin and Olivier as well , to our home for dinner . I asked about this set up , with breakers remotely located . Olivier pointed out that Amel now locates all the breakers in a central location , assumedly at the nav station and close to the batteries . This not only makes it much easier and quicker to locate the breakers , but provides protection from dead shorts . I think it was very good for Amel to adopt this electrical configuration . On our model , I think we need to assure that wires are bundled with minimum  movement and protected from chafe. Obviously, if Amel had a do over on our model , they would adopt this new configuration . We may get down to Rock Hall before , Nov , if so we"ll stop by .
Have a good trip,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Peacock peacock8491@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Sun, Oct 15, 2017 8:46 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] "Permanent" on 12v/24v

 
One last thought or two:

To answer your question directly, no other reason to have an always hot Sailor transformer.

As a question to you and others:

I have just replaced the battery monitor due to the original unit going bad after 18 years (they don’t make them like they used to). Tracing the wiring, there are two permanently hot wires going from the battery to the monitor; each wire is fused, located in the battery compartment. The monitor instructions indicate that the fuses should indeed be placed as close as possible to the batteries. That all seems great and as it should be.

I was concerned about whether the permanent Sailor unit was fused in a similar fashion. However, the wiring as it exists goes through the breaker (but somehow bypassing it) in the hanging closet. That breaker dos not cut off power to the Sailor unit. The Sailor unit does have fuse, as per Olivier. Am I correct to assume that the lack of a fuse more proximal to the battery is still safe?

Thanks.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


On Oct 15, 2017, at 4:04 AM, gary@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Greetings!

As I've been engrossed in the bowl-of-spaghetti called "wiring" it has been a true learning/labeling/discovering/pondering process.
I've pulled a lot of 'deadwood' wiring out, upgraded and updated some of the not-so-stellar runs and connections and made a couple of (what I think are) improvements to the back-and-forth wire runs I've discovered.  
The wire Chase's were all stuffed soooo tightly, and when the old equipment came out (years ago, I guess) the cabling was just left in place. It's all good now,but I have a question about the three "Sailor" 24v-to-12v converters.
They appeared to be routed through one of the three breakers in the wet locker area (on the aft wall of the nav station) but one is marked "Permanent" which would seem to indicate it's 'hot' all the time.
Except for keeping data in the CD Player, is there a compelling reason this converter could not be switched off as well? I mean it probably draws next to nothing (all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle) but every quarter of an amp counts :)
As near as I can tell, all the 12v equipment (VHF, Autohelm, B&G computer, Chain Counter, AIS and stereo system) would not suffer from a switchable supply.
Is there something aboard, either 24v or 12v, that definitely requires permanent power?
Thanks in advance. It's been a heck of a project so far .. started out chasing a lost GPS signal and have been rewiring for two weeks now. The wire-tie folks love me :) 

Gary W.
S/V Adagio
Marmaris, Turkey



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Fw: Mizzen gooseneck [4 Attachments]

ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Hi Steve,


 Many thanks. That's really useful as it does show a washer on the lower jaw. I think when Pen Azen was rerigged a few months back and they took both masts ashore the riggers must have forgotten the lower washer.

 We have found a temporary one that fits.

We have also learnt of the wonders of 1200 wet and dry, having spray painted  and rubbed down with 1200 the mast looks like new.

Very satisfying.


Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Preveza, Greece


From: amelyachtowners@... on behalf of Stephen Morrison steve_morrison@... [amelyachtowners]
Sent: 15 October 2017 16:08:16
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Fw: Mizzen gooseneck [4 Attachments]
 
Not sure if these are original or not, but this is how 380 looks today






All the best,
Steve Morrison
SM 380 TouRai
Brunswick, Ga



On Oct 15, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Ian & Judy ianjudyjenkins@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi All,


When it rained here in Greece ( first for a month) I noticed a  black stain running from the bottom of the mizzen goose neck fitting. I took it off the boom. ( I also took the opportunity to repaint where there had been bubbles )


 Whereas there is a washer on the top of the aluminium piece that fits in the two jaws attached to the mast, there was no washer on the bottom of that piece. You will see from the photo that the bottom of that piece is blackened.


 There is evidence of  wearing around the hole on the upper side of the lower jaw, the shape of  which suggests that there might originally have been a thin washer there to prevent the aluminium piece rubbing on the jaw. It would have to be pretty thin as there is not much room there.


Does anyone know if there is meant to be a washer there ? It would have to be a hard plastic of some sort, and pretty thin.


Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Preveza, Greece




From: ian/judyjenkins <penazen@...>
Sent: 15 October 2017 14:41
To: ianjudyjenkins@...
Subject: Mizzen gooseneck
 


--
  ian and judy jenkins


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Fw: Mizzen gooseneck [3 Attachments]

Stephen Morrison <steve_morrison@...>
 

Not sure if these are original or not, but this is how 380 looks today






All the best,
Steve Morrison
SM 380 TouRai
Brunswick, Ga



On Oct 15, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Ian & Judy ianjudyjenkins@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi All,


When it rained here in Greece ( first for a month) I noticed a  black stain running from the bottom of the mizzen goose neck fitting. I took it off the boom. ( I also took the opportunity to repaint where there had been bubbles )


 Whereas there is a washer on the top of the aluminium piece that fits in the two jaws attached to the mast, there was no washer on the bottom of that piece. You will see from the photo that the bottom of that piece is blackened.


 There is evidence of  wearing around the hole on the upper side of the lower jaw, the shape of  which suggests that there might originally have been a thin washer there to prevent the aluminium piece rubbing on the jaw. It would have to be pretty thin as there is not much room there.


Does anyone know if there is meant to be a washer there ? It would have to be a hard plastic of some sort, and pretty thin.


Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Preveza, Greece




From: ian/judyjenkins <penazen@...>
Sent: 15 October 2017 14:41
To: ianjudyjenkins@...
Subject: Mizzen gooseneck
 


--
  ian and judy jenkins


Fw: Mizzen gooseneck

ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Hi All,


When it rained here in Greece ( first for a month) I noticed a  black stain running from the bottom of the mizzen goose neck fitting. I took it off the boom. ( I also took the opportunity to repaint where there had been bubbles )


 Whereas there is a washer on the top of the aluminium piece that fits in the two jaws attached to the mast, there was no washer on the bottom of that piece. You will see from the photo that the bottom of that piece is blackened.


 There is evidence of  wearing around the hole on the upper side of the lower jaw, the shape of  which suggests that there might originally have been a thin washer there to prevent the aluminium piece rubbing on the jaw. It would have to be pretty thin as there is not much room there.


Does anyone know if there is meant to be a washer there ? It would have to be a hard plastic of some sort, and pretty thin.


Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Preveza, Greece




From: ian/judyjenkins
Sent: 15 October 2017 14:41
To: ianjudyjenkins@...
Subject: Mizzen gooseneck
 


--
  ian and judy jenkins
  penazen@...