Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Down wind sail configuration

Ian Shepherd
 

Ian,


I have met people who have done this, though I have never tried it. Be careful not to over stress the head of the ballooner. I ripped mine out on a crossing to the Caribbean during a sudden squall. After that I flew the mizzen staysail from the ballooner halyard to complete the crossing. Maybe a cruising chute would be a sail you might consider having on board for such occasions that you mention?

Ian Shepherd SM2K Crusader


On 11/08/2017 09:17, Ian Park parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

Agree with everything said above. Impressed with all the sail options.
Just wondered if anyone had used the ballooner on its own as a cruising chute or along with the mizzen staysail on a beam reach ? I’m thinking of when wind drops towards the end of the day with just a few miles to go - would be nice without the engine or rigging the whole down wind kit……

Ian
Ocean Hobo SN96



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Unknown freshwater source

Ian Shepherd
 

Hi Leo,

I have had a similar problem. Does the fresh water ever look soapy? After much head scratching I found that the leak was from the port side sink to wast pipe connection under the bottom of the sink. The thread on the plastic connector was very poor. The reason that it took so long to find is that it only happened when the boat was heeled to port, thus forcing water towards the port side sink exit. I normally only use the starboard sink for washing up. Try filling each sink in turn then watch carefully underneath for drips.

I don't think the size of the waves is relevant as your leak is fresh water, but the heeling angle may be.

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Waiting for wind at Kastelorizo Island Greece


On 11/08/2017 09:11, leopold.hauer@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

Hi everyone,

 

We have a "well" in the pantry bilges of our SM ( hull 69) : In higher waves, especially with wind from ahead , we get water ( definitely NO saltwater) in the compartment with the freshwater pump in front of the stove, continuing to the compartment underneath the sink and then to the one underneath the steps. The only origin we could imagine is the  freshwater tank inspection lid underneath the freezer, but we are not sure and  don't see any connection between  this lid and the  bilges in the pantry. 

The taps of dishwasher and washing machine are closed but most of the water is in this compartment. We are afraid that we have to remove the freezer.Has anyone ever removed the freezer and can give us hints or a description of how to do it?

Did or does anyone have this water problem too? Any ideas of a solution?


 

Greetings,

Leo Hauer

SM. Yin Yang



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Down wind sail configuration

Ian Park
 

Bill,
Thanks for that point about the strength of the sail.
Glad I didn't learn the hard way!
Cheers
Ian


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Down wind sail configuration

greatketch@...
 

Ian,

There is no way to use the balloner without putting it into the luff foil.  It is NOT made to be a free-flying sail, it does not have the strength in the luff tape.

Since it needs to go in the luff foil, the only way to use it on its own would be to remove the genoa first. Probably not what  you are thinking of!

Bill Kinney
SM160 Harmonie
Bar Harbor, Maine.


---In amelyachtowners@..., <parkianj@...> wrote :

Agree with everything said above. Impressed with all the sail options.
Just wondered if anyone had used the ballooner on its own as a cruising chute or along with the mizzen staysail on a beam reach ? I’m thinking of when wind drops towards the end of the day with just a few miles to go - would be nice without the engine or rigging the whole down wind kit……

Ian
Ocean Hobo SN96


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Unknown freshwater source

Stephen Davis
 

Hello Leo,

We have hull 72, and had a similar problem just after we purchased the boat in 2014. In our case, we had a lot of fresh water in the area where the water pump is located on our older boats, and gallons of water in the under floor area below the salon table. In our case, the seal on the water tank inspection port had deteriorated, and we had to remove the freezer and replace it. This is a good opportunity to clean your water tank as well. 

Keep in mind that the inspection port under the sink area in the galley can also put water in the area you are finding it in when heeled to port. Until you have the time to check it, try keeping the water level below 600 liters when you sail, and you should not have any water escaping the tank. If you are still finding water when keeping the tank below 600 liters, I suspect you have a different problem. 

Cheers,

Steve Davis
Aloha SM72
Aruba

On Aug 11, 2017, at 05:11, leopold.hauer@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi everyone,

 

We have a "well" in the pantry bilges of our SM ( hull 69) : In higher waves, especially with wind from ahead , we get water ( definitely NO saltwater) in the compartment with the freshwater pump in front of the stove, continuing to the compartment underneath the sink and then to the one underneath the steps. The only origin we could imagine is the  freshwater tank inspection lid underneath the freezer, but we are not sure and  don't see any connection between  this lid and the  bilges in the pantry. 

The taps of dishwasher and washing machine are closed but most of the water is in this compartment. We are afraid that we have to remove the freezer.Has anyone ever removed the freezer and can give us hints or a description of how to do it?

Did or does anyone have this water problem too? Any ideas of a solution?


 

Greetings,

Leo Hauer

SM. Yin Yang


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Good Service In Marmaris Turkey

Ian Shepherd
 

Hi Ian,

yes I have a roll of that stuff too. Useful to have aboard. I have some under my entertainment system UPS to stop it sliding around the cupboard next to the TV. If you have a back support cushion in the helmsman's seat, I wonder how you have attached it? It's a problematic area for Velcro strips due to the patterned surface in the gelcoat. Short of adding straps, I am stuck for a long term solution. Maybe double sided tape would last longer?

BTW the only snap connectors I have on my cushions are on the 4 straps that hold down the helm seat cushion.They are the 3M type with self adhesive cups.

Regards

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 Crusader (2003) Kasteloriso Island Greece

On 11/08/2017 07:07, parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:

We did away with snap connectors on our cockpit cushions. Instead we bought a roll of the perforated rubber material often used for non slip picnic table mats (in fact we first bought a roll to cut our own table mats for the cockpit). You can usually buy it in different colours in any hardware shop. Linda stitched it to the bottom of the cushions. Even the helm seat doesn't move. Our local canvas and sailmaker now stitches it on to all their cockpit cushions.

Ian
Ocean Hobo SN96



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Down wind sail configuration

Craig Briggs
 

Hi Ian,
We've used the ballooner as a light air jib, but you do have to drop the genoa, making it not very user friendly. In our case we were doing a fun day race in light air on Long Island sound. The J-24's still scooted past us!
Cheers, Craig, Sangaris SN68


---In amelyachtowners@..., <parkianj@...> wrote :

Agree with everything said above. Impressed with all the sail options.
Just wondered if anyone had used the ballooner on its own as a cruising chute or along with the mizzen staysail on a beam reach ? I’m thinking of when wind drops towards the end of the day with just a few miles to go - would be nice without the engine or rigging the whole down wind kit……

Ian
Ocean Hobo SN96


Re: Maramu 1989 #261 Fire Damage

smallworldsailor@...
 

I'm sure a skilled fiberglass man can repair this - no problem - and I have seen much more extensive damage repaired with complete success. I wish you the best in the repairs and outfitting for your world voyage and hope to see you out there somewhere in the coming years!
All the Best!
Todd Duff
Ocean LIfe, Maramu #263


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Down wind sail configuration

Ian Park
 

Agree with everything said above. Impressed with all the sail options.
Just wondered if anyone had used the ballooner on its own as a cruising chute or along with the mizzen staysail on a beam reach ? I’m thinking of when wind drops towards the end of the day with just a few miles to go - would be nice without the engine or rigging the whole down wind kit……

Ian
Ocean Hobo SN96


Unknown freshwater source

Leopold Hauer
 

Hi everyone,

 

We have a "well" in the pantry bilges of our SM ( hull 69) : In higher waves, especially with wind from ahead , we get water ( definitely NO saltwater) in the compartment with the freshwater pump in front of the stove, continuing to the compartment underneath the sink and then to the one underneath the steps. The only origin we could imagine is the  freshwater tank inspection lid underneath the freezer, but we are not sure and  don't see any connection between  this lid and the  bilges in the pantry. 

The taps of dishwasher and washing machine are closed but most of the water is in this compartment. We are afraid that we have to remove the freezer.Has anyone ever removed the freezer and can give us hints or a description of how to do it?

Did or does anyone have this water problem too? Any ideas of a solution?


 

Greetings,

Leo Hauer

SM. Yin Yang


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Down wind sail configuration

Ian Shepherd
 

Hello Miles,

I use the poles whenever I can and find the downwind performance to be very good. You will leave most boats behind if you pole out the genoa once the apparent wind angle is 120 degrees or more. A word of caution. Amel now recommend that if you use a poled out genoa in strong winds you should also rig the pole on the opposite side to minimize the bending load on the side of the mainmast. If you do this, you will wish for the genoa sheets to be 2M longer per side, else it will be a stretch to secure them to the upwind winch.

In light winds you will be able to continue sailing downwind whilst others can't, unless they deploy a cruising chute or spinnaker. When those sails collapse due to lack of wind, you genoa will remain proudly erect ready to catch any puff that comes along. And you don't have to watch it every second as you would a free flying sail.

The ballooner is a great sail and can be rigged single handed with a little ingenuity. There is a trap you can fall into though. When the wind picks up and you need to furl both sails bit by bit and you face a course change that no longer supports the twin head sail configuration, you have to completely unfurl again in order to get the ballooner down. When I made my single handed voyage from Shannon to Greenland I have a marvellous 24 hour run under ballooner and genoa. Then the wind picked up and changed direction and I was forced unfurl to get the wind down in winds of now 22kts. It was somewhat of a struggle. The lesson learnt was that it is wise to get the ballooner down early if you think that you will no be able to continue to use it.

That said, please make use of all of your sails. You will enjoy the results of your efforts. Do it often and rigging the poles,ballooner and mizzen staysail become second nature. If you know that you are going to encounter some downwind sailing, it is much easier to rig the poles and adjust the guys at anchor before you set off. The beauty of the Amel is that the poles can be folded back and hook on the rails when not in use. I leave mine permanently rigged so they can be deployed very quickly when required and also for added security. They do give some protection when moving back to the cockpit in rolly conditions. Going over the side single handed in not an option!

Sadly I know of several Amel owners who have never used their poles, yet alone the ballooner. They are really missing out, but that is their choice.

Regards

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece.


On 09/08/2017 20:38, smiles bernard smilesbernard@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 
Hello 
I'd be really interested to hear amel owners thoughts and experience in down wind sail configuration
What works best for you?
All the best
Miles


On 30 Jul 2017, at 21:11, smiles bernard smilesbernard@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello

I'm new to amel and and just going through with a maramu purchase

We are planning to take her fro Europe on a North Atlantic trip. Perhaps the Pacific too

I've also never sailed a ketch before and would love to hear any advise about setting the maramu up for down wind sailing

On sloops I've owned before I've run with double headsails on separate stays in the Trade winds. One sail on a roller furler. Another hanked on to a removable stay and then polled out to windward. With the main sail lashed down for days on end.

The worked brilliantly but I wonder if there is a option others could recommend that has worked well on these lovely ketches.

Any advice most welcome

Fair winds

Miles




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Genoa sheet broke under sail - looking for recommendations for replacement [1 Attachment]

Ian Shepherd
 

Hi Francisco,

sorry to hear about the mishap. It must have been quite a shock. Having read the posts I would tend to agree that you must have had a bad section of rope. It should never break. I ran my original Amel sheets literally ragged before shame forced me to get some smart new ones which I bought in Piraeus. I thought I had kept the receipt, but regrettably I don't seem to have kept it. I am afraid that I cannot remember the spec, but they seem to work well and are OK on the hands.

Incidentally if you are an avid user of the downwind poles as I am, it 's worth getting new sheets 2M longer per side than Amel supply. This enables you to takes some wraps around the main winches on both sides of the boat. Useful when both poles are out using only the genoa rather than with the ballooner, and you plan to gybe the genoa.

I have retained the method of looping the sheets through themselves at the genoa clew. However to make the sheets easy to remove, I had a stainless pin made with a loop on the top. The pin goes through the knot and is attached to the clew ring with a short length of cord forsafety. To untie the loop, I lower the clew to a strong point, tie it down with a short length of rope then attach the pole topping lift or a halyard to the loop on the top of the pin. Gentle cranking and the use of a little WD40 removes the pin leaving the loop easy to peel open.

I hope your luck improves. With a cracked spreader and now this you have been through the mill!

Regards to you and Odette

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece

On 09/08/2017 21:17, svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

Hello, our jib sheet broke during a gust to 39 knots apparent while close-hauled under full genoa, while sailing from Delos to Kea.  The breaking point was the block on the car on the genoa track.  No evidence of chafe was found on the broken line nor on its twin on the starboard side.


Brand: Alpha Ropes

Model: Cruiser 24 Kmix

Breaking strength: 5,500 kg / 12,125 lb

Core: Braided 16 strand HT Polyester core

Cover: 24 braid mix HT Polyester / Cordura

Date installed: April 2014, reversed March 2016

Miles sailed: 15,000

Genoa size: 54 sq m


This line was very easy on the hands, but was not much appreciated here in the Med where winds are continuously variable because it was rather stretchy, requiring constant winch adjustment.


On the other hand, not sure if the replacement should be a less stretchy rope, as it seems it would be harsh on the hardware?  Or is that not a factor?


Comments, suggestions, questions much appreciated in advance.  Best,



Peregrinus

SM2K N. 350 (2002)

At anchor, Vourkari, Kea





Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Good Service In Marmaris Turkey

Ian Park
 

We did away with snap connectors on our cockpit cushions. Instead we bought a roll of the perforated rubber material often used for non slip picnic table mats (in fact we first bought a roll to cut our own table mats for the cockpit). You can usually buy it in different colours in any hardware shop. Linda stitched it to the bottom of the cushions. Even the helm seat doesn't move. Our local canvas and sailmaker now stitches it on to all their cockpit cushions.

Ian
Ocean Hobo SN96


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Spade Anchor

Ian Park
 

Paul
I have the FX23 as a stern anchor on the Santorin. The previous owner left an FX 37 on board which I haven't used yet.
Yes, you can change the angle of the blades, but I have not yet found the need to. It is supposed to be for very soft mud so the blades bite deeper.
Ian


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Amel sharki

Warren Traill
 

Hi Owen. We have owned a 1980 Sharki #15 for 2.5 years. We love it. It is usually just the two of us and is a good size for that. There is generous storage space. We love the sunken cockpit and find the handling of the  boat to be easy and simple. We highly recommend the Sharki!

Regards,

Warren and Zetta

Manon2

Telaga, Malaysia

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, 10 August 2017 8:05 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Amel sharki

 

 

Greetings all.
I am very interested in the sharki, witch electric furling ideally. I am trying to research it as I hope to become an owner of one in the next few years. I am currently in Canada. Does anybody have experience with the sharki, and what are your likes and dislikes about it?

Any opinions are welcome.

Many thanks and fair winds,

Owen


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Modified SM Prop Shaft Seal Bush

Ian Shepherd
 

Hi Bob,

thanks for the info. Clearly Amel have picked up on the idea and are moving in that direction. Can't help thinking that Bill is a bit behind the drag curve on this one! Sorry I missed you in Turkey last year.

Best wishes

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece


On 09/08/2017 03:18, rossidesigngroup@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 
I think someone else posted that Amel had been experimenting with stainless WOBs but had not had enough time yet to evaluate them.

I've made a couple of posts on the experimental stainless WOB that Amel Iinadvertantly?) sent me. You can search for the posts including responses.  I finally put the WOB on about a year ago in Marmaris, Turkey (August, 2016) and will probably run it until I detect water in the reservoir. 

These are excerpts from 2 previous postings I made on this.  THE PICS ARE  A WOB AS RECEIVED FROM AMEL!

In March, 2014 I ordered and received FROM AMEL a bronze wearing out 
bearing that had a sort of Speedi-Seal stainless/inox facing on the 
surface that the seals go over. I have posted detailed pics at Dropbox 

LATER
Mystery solved!  I just got off the phone with Maud (ordering new parts including an additional spare for my spare prop WOB (I admit it, like lots of us I carry 2 spares of certain items).  

I asked her about the unusual WOB that I had received more than a year ago and described it (bronze with stainless or chromed steel face).  She explained to me that it was a "test" from Amel to see if it would prolong the life of the part. She said that several were sent out for this purpose and asked me how it was doing.  I have not installed it but promised I would report back.  Here, again are pics of the part   Amel Test WOB (4 photos)    Bob Rossi SM 429 KAIMI

Like many of us I ordered the WOB after I installed one and then waited 2 years... I finally installed the Amel stainless WOB a year ago in Marmaris around 8/2016.  I have not heard of another owner receiving the test WOB but there was a posting regarding Amels testing of these with a note that not enough time had elapsed to reach a conclusion.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Modified SM Prop Shaft Seal Bush

Ian Shepherd
 

Bill,

my seals failed at 500 hours on my first boat for the first time, so assembled by Amel. It's too short a period. No signs of fish line either.

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece


On 08/08/2017 16:27, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 
Craig,

That is good information, but, you know me....self-proclaimed protector of Amel systems!

Please read my summary of why I believe in Amel's C-Drive design and service procedure:
The C-Drive will accommodate three seals and it is possible to orient two of the seals to either double the seal-capacity to keep oil IN, or keep water OUT. Which is more important? Seals fail and seals wear...and some owners and operators wait until failure before replacing. 

I firmly believe that Amel is correct, and I think that your engineer is mostly correct. The question is this: Which one of the above two choices is Low Risk? The C-Drive is expensive to replace. The C-Drive requires lubrication to keep it from failing. I prefer to ensure that oil stays in the C-Drive, more than I want to ensure that water stays out. My reason is because if oil leaks out, you may not know it until the damage is done...Conversely, if water leaks in, the oil will still have lubricating ability and you will see the evidence of the presence of oil in the reservoir. 

Additionally, I have personally serviced the C-Drive 6 times. I have audited, supervised, and taught C-Drive service another 12 times. I can assure everyone that if you get water egress, you have not followed the procedures, you have not serviced the C-Drive every 800 hours/2 years, or something like monofilament fishing line has ruined the seals.

One more thing about what the engineer wrote: He seems to ignore the fact that the harder the metal, the more that the Nitrile Buna-N seals will wear. Is it possible that Henri Amel knew that if the owner did not see wear-grooves, the owner would ignore the servicing intervals? I personally like to believe that this is part of the explanation because I believe he was a genius...but, you know me....self-proclaimed protector of Amel systems!

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970




On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 10:00 AM, sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Some time ago I asked SKF's engineering about this. Here's their reply to me:
"Craig, 
My educated guess is that the seals are not an issue in this application. The problem is with the Bronze bushing that is being used as a sealing surface. Bronze is generally quite soft and might not have the required hardness of Rockwell C 30 or higher. You have a few options to solve this issue:
• You can put SKF speedi-sleeve gold on the shaft (P/N 99830). You will probably have to install multiple sleeves as you have 3 seals next to each other.
• You can replace the bronze bushing with a hardened wear sleeve for better abrasion resistance. We can offer you a custom wear sleeve if needed.
• You can plate your bushing with a harder material (Chrome, ceramic, etc) to make it wear resistant.
Essentially, the harder the shaft is, the less grooving it will see. I also suggest you to make sure that you grease pack the area between the seals to make sure that the seals not in contact with the oil are well lubricated. A lack of lubrication can cause the seal and surface to wear quicker. Finally I would arrange the seals with 2 facing the water and one facing the oil as long as there is no pressure difference. 
Best regards, Jaydeep Laljani, Application Engineer, SKF USA

I wrote back and said:
"Many thanks for your analysis. Frankly, I have wondered why the manufacturer used Bronze in the first place and not stainless - they actually call it a "wearing-out bushing" (but then they do charge a lot for replacements :-). 
Next month I'm returning to the boat, which is in Turkey, and I can easily have a local shop turn a new bushing in 316 Stainless (the same material as the shaft and propeller, so no electrolysis issues.) I think that would solve the problem without going to sleeves or plating. 
As for the orientation of the seals, I like your suggestion of two facing the water and will do that the next time I change the seals. After all, we're really trying to keep the water out more than keeping the oil in. And, yes, indeed, I always pack the seals with a good water-proof grease and that helps, I'm sure. "

Jaydeep replied with:

"I think you might not get as much life as you want with 316 SS as it is still not up to the required hardness. If you want to go Stainless I recommend 17-4 Stainless steel which is harder. If you are going with the 316 SS I would recommend you to passivate it to improve corrosion resistance. " 

Hope that's helpful.
Cheers, Craig Briggs, SN#68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Hardness of stainless steel 316 does not vary tangible. Bushing from stainless 316 will  definitely last longer, but the bushing will cost much more. 316 steel is expensive and hard to machin. But it is very good corrosion resistant material, good for salt water. If people are interested I can find mashin shop that can make them. We have to order 100 bushings or more. Otherwise setup cost is too much.

Vladimir Sonsev
SM 345
"LIFE IS GOOD"


On Aug 7, 2017 10:57 AM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
Ian, All, and especially newbies;

....
<<<>>>
I am certainly no expert, but I believe that stainless steel comes in at least 5 types and also different hardnesses; and the Nitrile Buna-N seals are made in different hardnesses. Although I personally do not need the answer to the following questions, I believe anyone attempting to follow your recommendation should know: What type of stainless steel and hardness you used? What was the hardness of the seals? What were the engine hours between servicing?

I would guess that to obtain different results than the Amel-proven system, you have to either scientifically solve the wear issue to achieve a different balance between wear of the seal and wear of the bushing, or use a trial and error method. I assume that your method was trial and error, which resulted in changing the balance of wear between the wear bushing and the wear on the lips of the seals; which extended your haulout interval - your goal. 

We must remember that there will be wear between the lips of the seal and the wear bushing on the C-Drive. It is obvious to anyone who has serviced an Amel C-Drive that with the current Amel design the wear bushing appears to wear more than the seal lips. 

I would assume that one could scientifically change the balance to increase the interval of haulouts. However, it makes sense to me that unless a scientific approach is used, we would be playing Russian roulette with a very expensive part of our boat.

Don't take what I am saying as criticism. I am happy that you achieved your goal. My goal was to haul out every 2 years for more reasons than C-Drive maintenance.

I would urge all readers of this message to stick with proven Amel supplied parts and procedures, rather than changing something that you do not completely understand. I do not have the metallurgical and mechanical engineering expertise to develop a better system than Amel's wear bushing and seals, nor do I believe any of us have that knowledge. 

....
Until recently, I had no idea that the Nitrile Buna-N seals are available in a hardness range from 40-90, and I do not know the hardness of the Nitrile Buna-N lip seals that Amel uses. We all know that bronze, brass, and Naval brass are available in different hardnesses. I suspect that none of us know the hardness of the wear bushing that Amel uses, nor do we know the percent of copper, tin, and zinc . Without this information, I believe that changing the balance of wear between the bushing and the seal should not be attempted, unless you understand the huge risk for what, I believe, is very little reward.

Ian, it is very good to have you return to this forum. I have missed you and your posts. Probably none of us have more miles in a Super Maramu than you have.

​Best,​
Bill Rouse


 



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Modified SM Prop Shaft Seal Bush

Ian Shepherd
 

Interesting.Thank you Craig. I actually put the outer seal facing inwards as per the Amel diagram. My though being that you don't want the spring exposed to sea water. I have made a note of 17-4 and will specify that next time.

You probably know Sanai in Marmaris? Loads of good machine shops there.

Regards

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece


On 08/08/2017 15:00, sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

Some time ago I asked SKF's engineering about this. Here's their reply to me:
"Craig, 
My educated guess is that the seals are not an issue in this application. The problem is with the Bronze bushing that is being used as a sealing surface. Bronze is generally quite soft and might not have the required hardness of Rockwell C 30 or higher. You have a few options to solve this issue:
• You can put SKF speedi-sleeve gold on the shaft (P/N 99830). You will probably have to install multiple sleeves as you have 3 seals next to each other.
• You can replace the bronze bushing with a hardened wear sleeve for better abrasion resistance. We can offer you a custom wear sleeve if needed.
• You can plate your bushing with a harder material (Chrome, ceramic, etc) to make it wear resistant.
Essentially, the harder the shaft is, the less grooving it will see. I also suggest you to make sure that you grease pack the area between the seals to make sure that the seals not in contact with the oil are well lubricated. A lack of lubrication can cause the seal and surface to wear quicker. Finally I would arrange the seals with 2 facing the water and one facing the oil as long as there is no pressure difference. 
Best regards, Jaydeep Laljani, Application Engineer, SKF USA

I wrote back and said:
"Many thanks for your analysis. Frankly, I have wondered why the manufacturer used Bronze in the first place and not stainless - they actually call it a "wearing-out bushing" (but then they do charge a lot for replacements :-). 
Next month I'm returning to the boat, which is in Turkey, and I can easily have a local shop turn a new bushing in 316 Stainless (the same material as the shaft and propeller, so no electrolysis issues.) I think that would solve the problem without going to sleeves or plating. 
As for the orientation of the seals, I like your suggestion of two facing the water and will do that the next time I change the seals. After all, we're really trying to keep the water out more than keeping the oil in. And, yes, indeed, I always pack the seals with a good water-proof grease and that helps, I'm sure. "

Jaydeep replied with:

"I think you might not get as much life as you want with 316 SS as it is still not up to the required hardness. If you want to go Stainless I recommend 17-4 Stainless steel which is harder. If you are going with the 316 SS I would recommend you to passivate it to improve corrosion resistance. " 

Hope that's helpful.
Cheers, Craig Briggs, SN#68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

Hardness of stainless steel 316 does not vary tangible. Bushing from stainless 316 will  definitely last longer, but the bushing will cost much more. 316 steel is expensive and hard to machin. But it is very good corrosion resistant material, good for salt water. If people are interested I can find mashin shop that can make them. We have to order 100 bushings or more. Otherwise setup cost is too much.

Vladimir Sonsev
SM 345
"LIFE IS GOOD"


On Aug 7, 2017 10:57 AM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Ian, All, and especially newbies;

....
<<<>>>
I am certainly no expert, but I believe that stainless steel comes in at least 5 types and also different hardnesses; and the Nitrile Buna-N seals are made in different hardnesses. Although I personally do not need the answer to the following questions, I believe anyone attempting to follow your recommendation should know: What type of stainless steel and hardness you used? What was the hardness of the seals? What were the engine hours between servicing?

I would guess that to obtain different results than the Amel-proven system, you have to either scientifically solve the wear issue to achieve a different balance between wear of the seal and wear of the bushing, or use a trial and error method. I assume that your method was trial and error, which resulted in changing the balance of wear between the wear bushing and the wear on the lips of the seals; which extended your haulout interval - your goal. 

We must remember that there will be wear between the lips of the seal and the wear bushing on the C-Drive. It is obvious to anyone who has serviced an Amel C-Drive that with the current Amel design the wear bushing appears to wear more than the seal lips. 

I would assume that one could scientifically change the balance to increase the interval of haulouts. However, it makes sense to me that unless a scientific approach is used, we would be playing Russian roulette with a very expensive part of our boat.

Don't take what I am saying as criticism. I am happy that you achieved your goal. My goal was to haul out every 2 years for more reasons than C-Drive maintenance.

I would urge all readers of this message to stick with proven Amel supplied parts and procedures, rather than changing something that you do not completely understand. I do not have the metallurgical and mechanical engineering expertise to develop a better system than Amel's wear bushing and seals, nor do I believe any of us have that knowledge. 

....
Until recently, I had no idea that the Nitrile Buna-N seals are available in a hardness range from 40-90, and I do not know the hardness of the Nitrile Buna-N lip seals that Amel uses. We all know that bronze, brass, and Naval brass are available in different hardnesses. I suspect that none of us know the hardness of the wear bushing that Amel uses, nor do we know the percent of copper, tin, and zinc . Without this information, I believe that changing the balance of wear between the bushing and the seal should not be attempted, unless you understand the huge risk for what, I believe, is very little reward.

Ian, it is very good to have you return to this forum. I have missed you and your posts. Probably none of us have more miles in a Super Maramu than you have.

​Best,​
Bill Rouse


 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Bimini Alterations?

Ian Shepherd
 

Steve,

I raised the front frame on my new bimini by 7cms a side. This was done by cutting the side tubing above the attachment hole and welding in a 7cm length. After polishing you can't see the join. The frame still folds into the dodger top recess, but what you will probably need to do is machine up two Teflon spacers and put one each side of on the fixing pin between the tubing and the outer edge of the dodger. This ensures that when folding down the tube does not rub on the edge of the dodger. 7 cms gave me headroom to stand at the wheel and look through the unzipped from panel and suck in that glorious breeze! I believe that we might have gone a bit higher than 7 cms, but that would have spoilt the nice new parallel top of the bimini which enhance the look of the boat. Have a look at Crusader's photos as well. I will take a look tomorrow at the measurements of the spacers

Regards

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece

s

On 08/08/2017 02:00, steve_morrison@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

Thank you Pat.  When you say that you raised your bimini framing a few inches, how did you do that?  I assume that you mean that you had new arches shaped that stood taller than the originals?  Did you use the original attachment points on the downslope of the hard dodger (such that I would imagine that you are no longer able to get the bimini to fold and tuck into its original stowed position), or did you move the attachment points farther and aft lower to allow for longer arches that still stowed in the original position.  


Any of the other owners reading this that may have changed the geometry of the original stainless arch frames, where did you attach them, and can you still fold and secure the bimini to the top of the hard dodger?

I am not on my boat again until wednesday and thus can't remember whether the trailing edge of the hard dodger descends at at an angle greater than or less than a 45 degree angle, and therefor, whether moving the attachment points lower and aft with a lengthened arch would gain in overall height or not while still folding as the original.  

I will check for for your Shenanigans photos tonight.

All the best,
Steve Morrison
SM 380 TouRai
Brunswick, GA


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Modified SM Prop Shaft Seal Bush

Ian Shepherd
 

Vladimir,

Priviet! I paid €80 to have a new bush made in stainless.I don't consider that expensive especially considering that it has 4 grub screws and not two. I would guess that might be cheaper than a bronze bush from Amel? I wonder how different the material cost really is? Bronze is not that cheap. I have not had any trouble finding a machine shop that can turn stainless. As long as there is an unused bronze bush to copy, I think that we can find where to get them made wherever we are.

Ou darchi

Ian Shepherd SM2K 414 (2003) Crusader Kastelorizo Island Greece


On 07/08/2017 23:06, Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:
 

Hardness of stainless steel 316 does not vary tangible. Bushing from stainless 316 will  definitely last longer, but the bushing will cost much more. 316 steel is expensive and hard to machin. But it is very good corrosion resistant material, good for salt water. If people are interested I can find mashin shop that can make them. We have to order 100 bushings or more. Otherwise setup cost is too much.

Vladimir Sonsev
SM 345
"LIFE IS GOOD"


On Aug 7, 2017 10:57 AM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Ian, All, and especially newbies;

Most of you know that I have been and will always be the person in this group that warns everyone about changing an Amel design. It is nothing personal. I love all things Amel and I take it as my responsibility; so, because of that responsibility, I will offer the other side of CRUSADER's report and recommendation...nothing personal, but I am the self-appointed protector of all things Amel, and will always be the one to point out the RISK vs the REWARD in changing an Amel design.

<<<>>>
I am certainly no expert, but I believe that stainless steel comes in at least 5 types and also different hardnesses; and the Nitrile Buna-N seals are made in different hardnesses. Although I personally do not need the answer to the following questions, I believe anyone attempting to follow your recommendation should know: What type of stainless steel and hardness you used? What was the hardness of the seals? What were the engine hours between servicing?

I would guess that to obtain different results than the Amel-proven system, you have to either scientifically solve the wear issue to achieve a different balance between wear of the seal and wear of the bushing, or use a trial and error method. I assume that your method was trial and error, which resulted in changing the balance of wear between the wear bushing and the wear on the lips of the seals; which extended your haulout interval - your goal. 

We must remember that there will be wear between the lips of the seal and the wear bushing on the C-Drive. It is obvious to anyone who has serviced an Amel C-Drive that with the current Amel design the wear bushing appears to wear more than the seal lips. 

I would assume that one could scientifically change the balance to increase the interval of haulouts. However, it makes sense to me that unless a scientific approach is used, we would be playing Russian roulette with a very expensive part of our boat.

Don't take what I am saying as criticism. I am happy that you achieved your goal. My goal was to haul out every 2 years for more reasons than C-Drive maintenance.

I would urge all readers of this message to stick with proven Amel supplied parts and procedures, rather than changing something that you do not completely understand. I do not have the metallurgical and mechanical engineering expertise to develop a better system than Amel's wear bushing and seals, nor do I believe any of us have that knowledge. 

And, I will take this a step further: Many of the Amel systems that I have been exposed to, obviously take into consideration the required maintenance and the level of experience and knowledge of the person performing the job. When I managed new product development, I used the term "child proof." When I asked my staff if the new product was "child proof," they knew that I was asking if it would pass the test of the most ignorant user. I never met Henri Amel, but from my experience with his boats, I believe he also used my term, or one similar.

Until recently, I had no idea that the Nitrile Buna-N seals are available in a hardness range from 40-90, and I do not know the hardness of the Nitrile Buna-N lip seals that Amel uses. We all know that bronze, brass, and Naval brass are available in different hardnesses. I suspect that none of us know the hardness of the wear bushing that Amel uses, nor do we know the percent of copper, tin, and zinc . Without this information, I believe that changing the balance of wear between the bushing and the seal should not be attempted, unless you understand the huge risk for what, I believe, is very little reward.

Ian, it is very good to have you return to this forum. I have missed you and your posts. Probably none of us have more miles in a Super Maramu than you have.

​Best,​

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550