Date   

Re: Ankerwinde Amel euros

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

Hallo Valentin
Ja die Winde scheint es zu sein , ich würde aber immer eine nehmen mit einem Verholspil
( einer Rolle an der Seite ) das erleichtert manchmal die Arbeit mit der Mooring .
Bei uns war ein Loch zum Kettenkasten ca 40 mm dadurch fiel die Kette direkt in den Kasten .
Das einzige Problem der Kasten ist nicht sehr tief und dadurch läuft die Kette dan auf und verstopft das Loch , dann must du die Kette mit der Hand wegräumen. Das kannst du aber mit einem ball fixiertan der richtigen Stelle umgehen , dann fällt fie Kette auf den Ball 🏀 unf verteilt sich besser .
Achte bitte darauf unsere Euros war eine Euros 39 !
Ich weiss nicht ob die Masse auf dem Vordeck etwas anders sind ,


Wenn du noch etwas brauchst jederzeit gern
Grüße Elja
SM Balu

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locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Mark McGovern
 
Edited

Scott,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I have read your posts with great interest and they have definitely helped me in planning and implementing my own system which shares many of the same components that you chose (i.e. I have lots of blue Victron stuff in my SM!).  

To be clear, I'm not saying that what the owner of MV Tanglewood is doing is the "correct" way to do it.  It certainly is not what most LiFePO4 manufacturers recommend.  I was simply stating that there does appear to be an observable and actionable correlation between voltage and State of Charge (SOC) with LiFePO4 batteries.  I totally agree that there is not a lot of "resolution" in the middle of the curve but there is enough resolution at the tail ends of the curve to take action before damage is done on either end of the curve.

Regarding the data posted that is posted here: https://www.powerstream.com/lithium-phosphate-charge-voltage.htm  you can see from the description of the test above the data that the test was done using very small batteries (less than 2.5 Ah capacity) and was done at over a 1C discharge rate (2.5 Amp discharge on 2.2 to 2.4 Ah batteries).  That is an extremely high discharge rate that is not really indicative of how we generally use our battery banks on our boats.  My normal "sitting at anchor" discharge rate is closer to 0.01C and I can even run one of the Air Conditioner units on the boat and still stay under 0.1C.  I think this high discharge rate has a significant impact on the Voltage vs. SOC results.

The data posted at the bottom of this article is from a test that I believe is much more indicative of how we use our battery banks:  https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/ and even this test is done at a relatively high discharge rate of about 0.075C.  Here is the chart of Voltage vs. Ah Discharged on the  772nd(!) Cycle on his ~11 year old LiFePO4 battery bank: https://marinehowto.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/34-LiFePO4-On-Boats.png


  


It's impossible to read the chart above but you can see the details in the links I that posted above.  I took the data from this 0.075C discharge test to get the following approximate Voltage vs. State of Charge %:

At 3.15v per cell or (3.15*4/8 = 12.6v/25.2v) you are at around ~15-18% SOC.
At 3.2v per cell or (3.2*4/8 = 12.8v/25.6v) you are at around ~30% SOC
At 3.3v per cell or (3.3*4/8 = 13.2v/26.4v) you are at around ~95% SOC
At 3.4v per cell or (3.4*4/8= 13.6v/27.2v) you are at around ~99-100% SOC

So on our nominal 24v boats there is a 1.2v difference from ~95%SOC to 15-18% SOC (26.4v-25.2v=1.2v).  That's not a huge difference, but it is easy to observe and use in decision making.

Other things to note in those test results:

  • He charges the bank to only 13.8v (3.45v per cell) with a 7.5amp tail current.  That's 27.6v on our 24v boat and is well below what most LiFePO4 battery manufacturers recommend. 
  • The battery bank reaches only 13.5v (3.37v per cell) at the start of the test with those charging parameters.
  • The voltage drops from 13.5v to 13.26v (3.32v per cell) after discharging only 6 Ah.
  • This data is from an eleven year old battery bank of LiFePO4 cells that has been in use in the lab and on a sailboat for and has had 773 cycles.  Most of those cycles have been to 80% depth of discharge or more.
  • This bank was rated at 400Ah when it was new but eleven years and almost 800 deep cycles later it still has MORE capacity than it was rated for when it was new.
Based on all of the above, Tanglewood's seemingly relatively simplistic scheme of charging to 3.45v per cell (but apparently only reaching 3.35v per cell or 26.8v on a 24v system), discharging normally, then charging again when the battery bank reaches 3.15v per cell (25.2v for Amels) seems pretty reasonable as it would cycle his batteries from 95% SOC to 15=18% SOC.  Only time will tell!  Hopefully he will continue to post his findings, good or bad. 

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Scott SV Tengah
 

Mark,

I looked at his first post and a few things he stated that is not consistent with the known characteristics of lithium:

1) Take a look at the voltage vs. SOC graph for a Lifepo4 battery. 
https://www.powerstream.com/lithium-phosphate-charge-voltage.htm

At 3.2v per cell or (3.2*8 = 25.8v) you are at around 3-8% state of charge.
At 3.3v per cell or (3.3*8 = 26.4v) you are at around 20-31% state of charge.
At 3.4v per cell or (3.4*8= 27.2v) you are at around 96-99% SOC. 

But it's not just the spread, it's the shape of the curve. The challenge is that the lithium curve, unlike lead, is NOT linear. The middle portion between say 10% and 90% has a very flat voltage curve.  See link above. I can attest that with my Mastervolt 110A charger set to 27.5v absorption, the alternator has stopped charging anywhere between 75-100%, averaging 85%.

If you set your charger to stop charging at 26.8v, you may be charging your batteries to only 40-50%.

And as you can see with lead, the voltage vs. SOC curve is quite linear, making it far more useful to determine SOC from voltage.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jeff_Cherry2/publication/315847359/figure/fig2/AS:633864561106948@1528136496496/Typical-Open-Circuit-Voltage-OCV-of-12V-Lead-Acid-Battery.png

2) He stops charging at 3.45v per cell and has a high voltage alarm at 3.5v. His high voltage ALARM is below Victron's absorption voltage of 3.55v and below Mastervolt's absorption voltage of 3.6v. Keeping voltage low like that will help avoid high SOC induced imbalances but there are other sources of imbalance too, namely high load or imperfectly assembled batteries. And most cell balancing systems require you to charge to near full before they start balancing, as indicated by low charge current acceptance rate - namely because of the non-linear charge curve. I have had batteries that show perfect balance until you approach 3.5v+ and then one cell goes wildly out of balance.

By not charging your batteries fully every once in a while, you may end up prolonging a cell imbalance issue that, in the event that you need to draw the batteries quite deeply (big storm, can't run the genset because of sea state), could result in a cell LOW voltage problem that will destroy the battery or cause your BMS to disconnect your loads at the worst time. Further, most battery monitors determine state of charge based on calibrating to 100%. And 100% on my battery monitor is determined when charge current is below X for time period Y. That means the battery is full and no longer accepting charge. As such, Victron explicitly recommends charging fully once a month to recalibrate the SOC monitor.



--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Mark McGovern
 

Arno,

Voltage may not be as bad an indicator of SOC of LiFePO4 batteries as you might think.  Here's a quote from the owner of MV Tanglewood who has had his LiFePO4 bank in operation for about ~18 months now:

First, counter to what everyone says, I think battery bank voltage is a sufficiently close indicator of SOG.  People say it's a much worse indicator for LFP vs Lead, but I disagree.  My lead bank was 50.4 volts when fully charged, and 48.0V when is was 50% empty and the generator started.  That's a spread of 2.4 volts.  In contrast, my LPF bank is full at 53.6V, and ready for recharge at 50.4V.  That's a 3.2V spread and is 30% more voltage swing than lead.  The difference, though, is that in the mid area of charge, the LFP voltage doesn't vary much, so there isn't as much differentiation between 60% and 50%.

Granted, this 3.2v spread is for his nominal 48v system but even with our nominal 24v system it would be a 1.6v spread which is a significant enough spread to monitor and act on.  I am literally in the middle of installing my LiFePO4 system and I am not yet living full time on the boat so I don't have a ton of personal experience with it just yet.  However, the experience that I do have so far lines up with Tanglewood's experience.  I think that if you operated an LiFePO4 system simplistically such that it is assumed to be "full" at 26.8V (stop charging) and then "empty" at 25.2v (start charging), the battery bank would be quite happy and would give you many years of service.

Here is the full blog post:  http://www.mvtanglewood.com/search/label/Lithium%20Batteries  

Be sure to read his other LiFePO4 related posts.  They are full of great information.
 
--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

He jose 
For the capcity you take Vicron the deal 12 v 200 ah for the normal sice 
Ore loog by green accu 
The you get 24 V 200 ah 
Best Elja 

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locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Scott SV Tengah
 

Arno,

I actually think if you're on shore power most of the time, lithium is a bad idea. At best, it's a waste of money that adds additional complication. 

I do agree with your lack of confidence in the warranty. Unless you are using batteries and chargers from one brand, I am almost certain the battery manufacturer will point fingers at the charger and you will left paying for a new battery bank yourself. 

For me, the big pluses are the charge/discharge curve as you mentioned, the lack of need to keep it full, the ability to run virtually all 220v appliances on battery and one thing that people don't often think about is that it could effectively double your solar output. The charge acceptance rate and near nonexistent charging efficiency issues means that, for the same solar array, you will get almost twice as many AH per day into your batteries compared to lead. I believe it is Porter who is in the tropics and has a similar solar array and the same MPPT as we do, but we are able to put nearly twice as much cumulative power into the batteries as he is. Our only difference is AGM vs. lithium.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Scott SV Tengah
 

Sounds about right with Mastervolt. I haven't studied their system in detail but from what I've seen, they're the most hands off, from the user perspective, that I've seen. But you pay for it!

I have the Mastervolt alternator and Alpha pro II (3 is even better) and it took me over a year and the help of an engineer who used to break into car ECUs to reprogram them. It turned out to be quite simple, but neither Victron nor dealers understood the problem or could provide the solution.

I describe how I do it here:
https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/message/50689

One final alternator tip: I did not use the standard lithium profile on the mastervolt charge controller. This is because I did not want to keep the lithium batteries fully charged when motoring for a long time as this is not good for the batteries. I set the absorption voltage for 27.5v and the "float" at 26.5v. As mentioned before, voltage is NOT a good indicator of SOC, but I've seen over the last two years that this seems to result in charging stopping at around 85% on my system.  You'll need a Mastervolt USB interface to program your charge controller.

https://www.mastervolt.com/products/masterbus-interfaces/masterbus-usb-interface/


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Scuba compressor recommendations

Scott SV Tengah
 

I do something similar but it's just a Ryobi portable fan that I direct at the compressor when I'm filling tanks. Bauer techs told me that it will extend the life of the compressor and the filters. Your blower fan will certainly work better.

One other idea is to take a long hose and bring fresh air into the intake. This is something gasoline powered compressors have to do but we do it also because our cockpit locker also stores chemicals that I prefer not to breathe underwater (or above water, for that matter!).

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Jose Venegas
 

I was searching over internet for marine Lithium Batteries and found the “Ionic” brand that sells a 12V 125 Ah with the same size of the BattleBorn 12 100 Ah battery.
Ionic only give 5 years warranty vs BB 10 years, but they will provide 25% more capacity for our boats and each battery can be monitored independently with a smart phone via blue tooth communication.
I am inclined to go BB but wonder if any one has heard good or bad things of the “ionic”

Jose Venegas
IPANEMA SM2K 278
Curaçao


Outhaul gear pulled in Annapolis

Karen Smith
 

Hi!  Bill Kinney & I have been doing some work with new owners of an Amel 54. The outhaul is really stuck. Is there anyone in the group near Annapolis with a pulled for the outhaul that we could borrow? It would be greatly appreciated! If you are in the area we will be at Bert Jabins Yacht Yard please stop by and say hi!

Karen Smith
s/v Harmonie
SM #160


Re: Gearbox ratio

Mark McGovern
 

Mark,

My SM is a 2004 with a Yanmar 4JH3-HTE engine.  It does have a Hurth ZF25 gearbox.  However, it may not be the same gearbox on your SM with a Perkins M80T. 

In any case the ratios on my gearbox are as follows:

Ratio 1:  A = 2.80 B = 2.80

I'm not sure what you are going to use the ratio information for, but the only way to be 100% certain what is on your boat is to look at the plate that is on the gearbox in your engine room.   Maybe you can get someone to go on your boat and take a picture for you.  Here is the plate on my gearbox:



I find that Google Photos is a great way to store information like this "for posterity" so that you can find and access the information even when you are not on your boat.  That's what I just used to grab the photo above.  I took that pic over a year ago for no real particular reason but to document what I had while I was replacing the Vetus coupler.

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


Re: A54 hawsehole and chain guide

Teun BAAS
 

Morning Thomas,

 

Thanks for the reply – all clear.

 

Best Regards Teun

A54 2009 #128

September 11, 2020 08:56:48

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sv Garulfo via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 11:36
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 hawsehole and chain guide

 

Hi Teun,

 

No, it’s only when we let out the full chain for whatever reason. So it’s very rare and only to minimise the chance of bungling it during business as usual. (That rarely happens anyway, even with galvanised chain). 

 

Hope that clarifies the use case. 

 

 

Thomas 

GARULFO 

A54-122

Bora-Bora 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 03:48, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:

Thomas,

 

Does this mean that every time you weigh anchor that somebody is guiding this device by hand in the right direction to evenly spread the anchor chain?

 

If so then I clearly have too many sails in the sail locker as it is completely full and was really a massive, massive head ache to get to the chain locker when the new (galvanized) chain bungled up. I never had the bungling up issue with the OEM SS chain and since I pushed a bunch of the galvanized chain all the way to the back it hasn’t happened since. It is rare, even in the South Pacific, that I use the last 30 meters of a 100 meter chain so pushing those 30 plus meters all the way back in the chain locker I believe prevents the bundle of chain getting too high in the front and thus getting tangled/bungled.

 

But your device looks what I need but then I also need: A) easily access to the chain locker as well as B) a pair of hands during departure.

 

Best Regards Teun

A 54 2009  #128

September 8, 2020 06:46:43

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sv Garulfo via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 6, 2020 15:07
To: Amel Yacht owners Group <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 hawsehole and chain guide

 

Hi all,

 

We recently end-to-ended our anchor chain and I found the pictured device useful to guide the chain nice and flat at the bottom of the chain locker.

 

It’s simply a piece of PVC pipe with a couple of small line to gutter the chain in various corners of the locker.

 

 

 

And when you don’t use it, it snaps happily on the hawsehole pipe for efficient storage. 

 

 

 

 

Best,

 

Thomas

GARULFO 

A54-122

Bora-Bora 

 


Re: Scuba compressor recommendations

Arlo
 

thanks for the details. Why did they put it on a track? 


Re: Scuba compressor recommendations

Arlo
 

thanks Scott! Great tip...I plan to install a blower fan as well on it to help keep it cool...


Re: Scuba compressor recommendations

Arlo
 

Thank you! all good to know. anything I should be aware of to check if I buy a used system?


Ankerwinde Amel euros

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 



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Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht:

Von: bijorka <bijorka@...>
Datum: 11. September 2020 um 14:22:44 MESZ
An: bijorka@...
Betreff: Ankerwinde Amel euros

 He Valentin , 
On may old Euros i have an 
Quik 800 W instalt . 




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locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Arno Luijten
 

Hi Sheriffdep,

Drop in replacement have build in BMS-es that is correct. The quality of those can be from excellent to abysmal and you have very little clues to determine this from the outside.
I do think that assembling your own battery pack is currently the best way forward if you have technical skills. It's cheaper and you determine for yourself which BMS system gives you the best facilities for your usage case.
It also enables you to make better use of available space. An example of company that facilitates this route is https://shop.gwl.eu/index.php?force_sid=nc4jtsqa8h85c6d1m7j3t8ncnj& (I have no relation with them and never bought anything there)

Your assumption about 15-30 year investment is highly optimistic at best. Personally I would assume a lifespan of 8 years simply as a result of lack of evidence that these things last longer. Your best bet is looking at the way Tesla's from 2013 are behaving and those use different chemistries (Li-Ion instead of LiFePO)
As said before, my main beef with this stuff is that to get the best life expectancy from these things you need to treat them carefully, meaning not fully empty or fully charged for extended periods and keeping them balanced. Most systems can only balance them at 100% SOC. This means you will need to think of the SOC of your batteries in relation to your cruising plans and modify the configuration accordingly. The latter is can be quite the hassle as you need to "tell" all your charging sources to keep a certain maximum float-voltage (more accurately maximum SOC). Alternatively you can also make them stop charging, but that means you will be short-cycling the batteries needlessly because of the never ending consumption by systems on the boat. The effects of this are unknown to me and I cannot find clear information about it. It also means your battery bank is not "set and forget" as many supplies claim is some form or shape.

My point is that it is not so hard to put a well working system together but designing one that minimizes stress on the battery system and maximizes longevity is quite the challenge. It is also depending on your use-case provided you can predict that for the coming 8-15 years (I can't). The Battle Born batteries give you very little to control the SOC and don't provide you with information on what's going on inside the black box. Their 10-year warranty doesn't mean much to me. Who knows if the company is still around in 10 years and what they will tell you then.

So in the end, I think there are some good reasons to switch to Lithium but life-span discussions in relation to total cost of ownership and comparing them to alternatives are risky at best. My thought is that the charge/discharge curve of lithium and the lack of need to charge them to 100% every time are the VERY big plus arguments. All other points are secondary and maybe even debatable.


Cheers,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

He Scott , first many thanks for your detaild awnser . 

i have been advised at Victron and Mastervolt for 800 Ah 12Volt  in row 400 AH 24 V
Mastervolt estimates the cost incl assembly to approx € 40000.00
with 2 combi inverters
3000/100 .
von Victron habe ich ein Angebot für alle Componenten
incl 1 st combi inverter
5000/135
Victron has only one external BMS for all batteries but offers
to connect before the BMB as an additional protection before overload the battery protection
components for land current/generator solar load and load through the light machine to double protection.

sowiso would have a reserve BMS with the 102 € are not important .

I find an Altinator Mastervolt Alpha
With the regulator Alpha III


Is it possible for this altinator to stop charging the butteries when the engine i running ? Withaut damage the altinator ? 

Thanks Elja 
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Gearbox ratio

Mark Barter
 
Edited

I have been asked for the gearbox ratio of the gearbox and I am away from the boat. 

The boat is a 1993 Super Maramu hull number 110. It is a Hurth gearbox.

The engine is a Perkins M80T

Can anyone help please?

Many thanks 
--
Mark & Nicky Barter
S/V Nunky
SM 110


Re: Scuba compressor recommendations

Stefan Jeukendrup
 

Hi Arlo,

Bauer PE100 on Onan MDKAL 50Hz 220V

Best regards,

Stefan Jeukendrup
sv Malaka Queen
SM2k  #348 @Turkey

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