Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

karkauai
 

Oh, yes I checked again and the charger is set for lead acid batteries.  I'll do the CCA test again after a 2-hour wait.
Kent


On Jun 26, 2016, at 1:09 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,

Why did you measure voltage in pairs? 

You said, "...checked the individual voltage on each battery. All batteries were at 25.89 V."

Although it probably has nothing to do with your problem, you did not check them individually if the voltage was 25.89.

You did not mention any correction for temperature. Did your hydrometer have a built in thermometer to correct the reading to 80 degrees F? However, this would not be significant with your readings because you are probably at about 90 degrees and the correction to 80 degrees would only correct the 1.150 to 1.154.

It sounds like your 1 month old batteries are acting like they are at end of life.

Is the Charles 60 selector switch set for lead acid?

When you used the SOLAR battery tester, did you actually check each battery individually and with the battery totally disconnected from the bank, both positive and negative? if not, totally disconnect a pair of batteries at a time. Let them rest for at least 30 minutes (2 hours may be better), then test each one. Then do the next pair until you have done all 4 pairs.

Bill
BeBe 387




 

On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 4:40 PM, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi again cousins,
I finally got a hygrometer to check specific gravity in my batteries. I couldn't find one in Bonaire, and after several tries finally found one in Curaçao....crazy.

I am at the dock now and on shore power. Here's what I did:
I let the battery bank get down to 24.1 V, turned on the Charles 60 amp smart charger and fully charged the batteries. Initially it put 58 A into the battery bank but within 30 minutes it was down to 35 A. After two hours it was down to less than 10 A. I left the charger on until the next day, it was at float voltage of the 26.5 V, one amp was going into the battery bank.

I checked voltage of the battery bank after letting two fridges run for 10 minutes, then turning off all 24 V equipment. The bank voltage was 25.8 V. I then disconnected all batteries from each other, and checked the individual voltage on each battery. All batteries were at 25.89 V +/- 0.04V. Every thing seems appropriate at this point, am I wrong about that?

I then checked specific gravity of all cells in all batteries. Each cell was at 1150 +/- 20. The hygrometer scale says they should be at >1260.

Soooo...is it likely that all batteries are bad to the exact same degree???? That seems unlikely unless they all came from the same run, and were filled with a bad electrolyte solution. Even then, for the first few weeks they were lasting almost 24 hours before they were down to a little above 24V, so that doesn't seem likely.
Is it likely that the hygrometer is bad? It's such a simple tool that doesn't seem likely either. There's no liquid in the float.

My battery monitor agrees with my multitester when reading bank voltage and amperage in the primary cables.

I'm stumped.

Any suggestions welcome.

Masha Danki from Curaçao.
Kent
SM243
Kristy



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

karkauai
 

Hi Bill,
Sorry, the individual batteries read 12.89V +/- 0.04V, not 25.89.

The hygrometer does not have a temperature correction.  It's just a simple float.  I had the AC running all night, so battery temp was probably closer to 75dF.

Yes, I did completely disconnect all batteries when I did the CCA tests...and all showed greater than the rated 600CCA.  Seems odd that CCA reads better than advertised and SG shows bad batteries.

I'm in touch with both the Interstate battery people and the Charles charger folks.  It'll be interesting to see what they say.

Thanks again,
Kent




On Jun 26, 2016, at 1:09 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,

Why did you measure voltage in pairs? 

You said, "...checked the individual voltage on each battery. All batteries were at 25.89 V."

Although it probably has nothing to do with your problem, you did not check them individually if the voltage was 25.89.

You did not mention any correction for temperature. Did your hydrometer have a built in thermometer to correct the reading to 80 degrees F? However, this would not be significant with your readings because you are probably at about 90 degrees and the correction to 80 degrees would only correct the 1.150 to 1.154.

It sounds like your 1 month old batteries are acting like they are at end of life.

Is the Charles 60 selector switch set for lead acid?

When you used the SOLAR battery tester, did you actually check each battery individually and with the battery totally disconnected from the bank, both positive and negative? if not, totally disconnect a pair of batteries at a time. Let them rest for at least 30 minutes (2 hours may be better), then test each one. Then do the next pair until you have done all 4 pairs.

Bill
BeBe 387




 

On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 4:40 PM, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi again cousins,
I finally got a hygrometer to check specific gravity in my batteries. I couldn't find one in Bonaire, and after several tries finally found one in Curaçao....crazy.

I am at the dock now and on shore power. Here's what I did:
I let the battery bank get down to 24.1 V, turned on the Charles 60 amp smart charger and fully charged the batteries. Initially it put 58 A into the battery bank but within 30 minutes it was down to 35 A. After two hours it was down to less than 10 A. I left the charger on until the next day, it was at float voltage of the 26.5 V, one amp was going into the battery bank.

I checked voltage of the battery bank after letting two fridges run for 10 minutes, then turning off all 24 V equipment. The bank voltage was 25.8 V. I then disconnected all batteries from each other, and checked the individual voltage on each battery. All batteries were at 25.89 V +/- 0.04V. Every thing seems appropriate at this point, am I wrong about that?

I then checked specific gravity of all cells in all batteries. Each cell was at 1150 +/- 20. The hygrometer scale says they should be at >1260.

Soooo...is it likely that all batteries are bad to the exact same degree???? That seems unlikely unless they all came from the same run, and were filled with a bad electrolyte solution. Even then, for the first few weeks they were lasting almost 24 hours before they were down to a little above 24V, so that doesn't seem likely.
Is it likely that the hygrometer is bad? It's such a simple tool that doesn't seem likely either. There's no liquid in the float.

My battery monitor agrees with my multitester when reading bank voltage and amperage in the primary cables.

I'm stumped.

Any suggestions welcome.

Masha Danki from Curaçao.
Kent
SM243
Kristy



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Kent,

Why did you measure voltage in pairs? 

You said, "...checked the individual voltage on each battery. All batteries were at 25.89 V."

Although it probably has nothing to do with your problem, you did not check them individually if the voltage was 25.89.

You did not mention any correction for temperature. Did your hydrometer have a built in thermometer to correct the reading to 80 degrees F? However, this would not be significant with your readings because you are probably at about 90 degrees and the correction to 80 degrees would only correct the 1.150 to 1.154.

It sounds like your 1 month old batteries are acting like they are at end of life.

Is the Charles 60 selector switch set for lead acid?

When you used the SOLAR battery tester, did you actually check each battery individually and with the battery totally disconnected from the bank, both positive and negative? if not, totally disconnect a pair of batteries at a time. Let them rest for at least 30 minutes (2 hours may be better), then test each one. Then do the next pair until you have done all 4 pairs.

Bill
BeBe 387




 

On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 4:40 PM, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi again cousins,
I finally got a hygrometer to check specific gravity in my batteries. I couldn't find one in Bonaire, and after several tries finally found one in Curaçao....crazy.

I am at the dock now and on shore power. Here's what I did:
I let the battery bank get down to 24.1 V, turned on the Charles 60 amp smart charger and fully charged the batteries. Initially it put 58 A into the battery bank but within 30 minutes it was down to 35 A. After two hours it was down to less than 10 A. I left the charger on until the next day, it was at float voltage of the 26.5 V, one amp was going into the battery bank.

I checked voltage of the battery bank after letting two fridges run for 10 minutes, then turning off all 24 V equipment. The bank voltage was 25.8 V. I then disconnected all batteries from each other, and checked the individual voltage on each battery. All batteries were at 25.89 V +/- 0.04V. Every thing seems appropriate at this point, am I wrong about that?

I then checked specific gravity of all cells in all batteries. Each cell was at 1150 +/- 20. The hygrometer scale says they should be at >1260.

Soooo...is it likely that all batteries are bad to the exact same degree???? That seems unlikely unless they all came from the same run, and were filled with a bad electrolyte solution. Even then, for the first few weeks they were lasting almost 24 hours before they were down to a little above 24V, so that doesn't seem likely.
Is it likely that the hygrometer is bad? It's such a simple tool that doesn't seem likely either. There's no liquid in the float.

My battery monitor agrees with my multitester when reading bank voltage and amperage in the primary cables.

I'm stumped.

Any suggestions welcome.

Masha Danki from Curaçao.
Kent
SM243
Kristy



Re: Batteries

karkauai
 

Hi again cousins,
I finally got a hygrometer to check specific gravity in my batteries. I couldn't find one in Bonaire, and after several tries finally found one in Curaçao....crazy.

I am at the dock now and on shore power. Here's what I did:
I let the battery bank get down to 24.1 V, turned on the Charles 60 amp smart charger and fully charged the batteries. Initially it put 58 A into the battery bank but within 30 minutes it was down to 35 A. After two hours it was down to less than 10 A. I left the charger on until the next day, it was at float voltage of the 26.5 V, one amp was going into the battery bank.

I checked voltage of the battery bank after letting two fridges run for 10 minutes, then turning off all 24 V equipment. The bank voltage was 25.8 V. I then disconnected all batteries from each other, and checked the individual voltage on each battery. All batteries were at 25.89 V +/- 0.04V. Every thing seems appropriate at this point, am I wrong about that?

I then checked specific gravity of all cells in all batteries. Each cell was at 1150 +/- 20. The hygrometer scale says they should be at >1260.

Soooo...is it likely that all batteries are bad to the exact same degree???? That seems unlikely unless they all came from the same run, and were filled with a bad electrolyte solution. Even then, for the first few weeks they were lasting almost 24 hours before they were down to a little above 24V, so that doesn't seem likely.
Is it likely that the hygrometer is bad? It's such a simple tool that doesn't seem likely either. There's no liquid in the float.

My battery monitor agrees with my multitester when reading bank voltage and amperage in the primary cables.

I'm stumped.

Any suggestions welcome.

Masha Danki from Curaçao.
Kent
SM243
Kristy


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

James,

Yes...according to the specs from the manufacturer. This test only returns a good or bad reading...red or green light. If you want more precise information there are digital testers that give you more info.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Lokiyawl2 lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,
  Your proactive battery testing to catch a bad battery before it fails sounds like a good idea to me.  With regards to the aforementioned tester detecting internal shorts is the instrument measuring the batteries internal resistance?  

James


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: "'Bill Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 06-26-2016 9:52 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion


 

James,

Buy a digital battery tester like the one any battery supplier has and most automotive shops have that test and printout the status, testing volts, charge state, current CCA, and test for internal shorts.

Or if you don't need a printout, buy the Solar brand Chinese knock-off. That is what I have and I test all batteries about every 3 months.

https://www.amazon.com/BA9-40-1200-Digital-Battery-System/dp/B00IZFNJ6Y

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jun 26, 2016 8:43 AM, "Lokiyawl2 lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,
  How does one test for internal shorts by doing a load test?  Good information.
James


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: "'Bill Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 06-26-2016 9:31 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion


 

Batteries, anchors, and other boat stuff that we all have firm options on...but for this posting I will stick to batteries.

In my experience one person's experience with a single product, is only misleading and proves nothing, especially batteries where there are at least 10 variables in addition to make and model.

For instance, I met a British guy in Turkey at a marina who was changing out his batteries. He had 14 years on them. He bought these batteries when he bought his boat, which was a Beneteau coming out of charter in Greece. He sailed to Marmaris Turkey where he lived aboard for 14 years. At least once a year, he would unplug and motor somewhere for the day.

I think that regardless what brand battery you buy, the most you can hope for is 4 years, if you actually are cruising.

BTW, the absolute worst brand that I bought was Varta  freedom style calcium batteries. I bought 13 in Greece. They started failing 3 months later with internal shorts. They failed one at a time. Had I not supervised them, I had about 8 opportunities for a major problem like Phantom's battery problem. Those 13 batteries were each discarded in 12 months. Johnson Controls UK, the company that manufactures Varta chose to do nothing, telling me to take up the issue with the Greek who also chose to do nothing. At the time that I bought Varta I was told that Varta bought the Delphi Battery plant in France where the original Amel batteries were made. My single experience shouldn't eliminate Varta from your choices, but it does for me. In my experience the best performing batteries have been the original Amel-installed Delphi Freedom batteries and the same battery made by the Delphi licensee in Istanbul, Turkey. Sadly, I do not believe those are available in Turkey anymore, and Delphi France is just a brand made by someone else since the GM liquidation of Delphi.

Be sure to load test and test for shorts any new batteries when they are delivered. The battery supplier should do this while you watch and should give you a printout for each battery. Or buy the digital battery tester and do it yourself, as I do. Out of 12 delivered, I had 2 batteries fail the internal short test.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] 24V Watermaker

Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

You could simply change out the 220V motor for a 24 volt one.

I say “simply” but of course there would be a fair amount of mechanical and electrical engineering involved, although the motor cost would be rather small.   

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, New Jersey

On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:29, rossidesigngroup@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

HI  Barry,

Regarding your comment when you said  "This does not make sense!  Why would you deplete your stored energy in your batteries to run a 24 volt motor on your water maker."  The answer is that I would not.  Please re-read my post where I say " It would be great to be able to make water while motoring or with solar"  In neither situation would my batteries necessarily be depleted.  I have considerable excess solar capacity during the day.  There is an excess of amp hours available because my solar system commonly tops up my house bank (SM Redline) by about noon.  Following this, measured unused capacity from the solar panels is substantial--equaling or exceeding 10 amps at 27+V (my solar capacity is pretty high) .   Also, like most Amel owners I have a high capacity (stock) alternator on my engine.  Its capacity is underutilized when motoring for extended periods because, again, the batteries are topped off drawing only a few amps and only 10 amps or so are used for refridge, autopilot and LED lighting, etc.  No question, the 220 AC Dessalator is very good, and you are quite right, I would not trade it for the 24V only system that you are complaining about, but the capacity to make fresh water with both 24 and 220 is desirable for some of us and need not be at the expense of depleting batteries (and running the generator to charge them back up).
Cheers,
Bob, KAIMI SM429
At Anchor, Gocek Turkey--Haven't run my generator for 2 weeks  

 



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

svperegrinus@yahoo.com
 

Hello Mark, 

What brand batteries and type do you have?  25% failure rate!  Ouch.  Very sorry to hear, but glad your diligence in monitoring got you positive results.

Cheerio,

Peregrinus
SM2K #350 (2002)
At anchor, Pampelonne beach (St Tropez)


---In amelyachtowners@..., <mcerdos@...> wrote :

I second Bill’s recommendation for this item and regular testing of the batteries. Because of his suggestion, I purchased a tester prior to departing on our cruise adventure. In the Bahamas a couple of months ago, I identified two bad batteries in our group of eight and was able to disconnect them. I re-arranged the 4 pairs of two to 3 pairs of two and reprogrammed the battery monitor for the 25% reduction of amp-hours. We continued our season the remaining 6 batteries. Now that we are back in an area of plenty, we can replace the bad batteries. Had I not checked or had the means to check, the bad batteries would certainly have damaged the remaining batteries in the group and caused us an unplanned expense, or worse.

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising:  Tampa Bay for hurricane season

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2016 8:53 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

 

 

James,

Buy a digital battery tester like the one any battery supplier has and most automotive shops have that test and printout the status, testing volts, charge state, current CCA, and test for internal shorts.

Or if you don't need a printout, buy the Solar brand Chinese knock-off. That is what I have and I test all batteries about every 3 months.

https://www.amazon.com/BA9-40-1200-Digital-Battery-System/dp/B00IZFNJ6Y

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jun 26, 2016 8:43 AM, "Lokiyawl2 lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Bill,

  How does one test for internal shorts by doing a load test?  Good information.

James

 

 

Sent from Samsung Mobile




-------- Original message --------

From: "'Bill Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 06-26-2016 9:31 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion


 

Batteries, anchors, and other boat stuff that we all have firm options on...but for this posting I will stick to batteries.

In my experience one person's experience with a single product, is only misleading and proves nothing, especially batteries where there are at least 10 variables in addition to make and model.

For instance, I met a British guy in Turkey at a marina who was changing out his batteries. He had 14 years on them. He bought these batteries when he bought his boat, which was a Beneteau coming out of charter in Greece. He sailed to Marmaris Turkey where he lived aboard for 14 years. At least once a year, he would unplug and motor somewhere for the day.

I think that regardless what brand battery you buy, the most you can hope for is 4 years, if you actually are cruising.

BTW, the absolute worst brand that I bought was Varta  freedom style calcium batteries. I bought 13 in Greece. They started failing 3 months later with internal shorts. They failed one at a time. Had I not supervised them, I had about 8 opportunities for a major problem like Phantom's battery problem. Those 13 batteries were each discarded in 12 months. Johnson Controls UK, the company that manufactures Varta chose to do nothing, telling me to take up the issue with the Greek who also chose to do nothing. At the time that I bought Varta I was told that Varta bought the Delphi Battery plant in France where the original Amel batteries were made. My single experience shouldn't eliminate Varta from your choices, but it does for me. In my experience the best performing batteries have been the original Amel-installed Delphi Freedom batteries and the same battery made by the Delphi licensee in Istanbul, Turkey. Sadly, I do not believe those are available in Turkey anymore, and Delphi France is just a brand made by someone else since the GM liquidation of Delphi.

Be sure to load test and test for shorts any new batteries when they are delivered. The battery supplier should do this while you watch and should give you a printout for each battery. Or buy the digital battery tester and do it yourself, as I do. Out of 12 delivered, I had 2 batteries fail the internal short test.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

James Alton
 

Bill,
  Your proactive battery testing to catch a bad battery before it fails sounds like a good idea to me.  With regards to the aforementioned tester detecting internal shorts is the instrument measuring the batteries internal resistance?  

James


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 06-26-2016 9:52 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion


 

James,

Buy a digital battery tester like the one any battery supplier has and most automotive shops have that test and printout the status, testing volts, charge state, current CCA, and test for internal shorts.

Or if you don't need a printout, buy the Solar brand Chinese knock-off. That is what I have and I test all batteries about every 3 months.

https://www.amazon.com/BA9-40-1200-Digital-Battery-System/dp/B00IZFNJ6Y

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jun 26, 2016 8:43 AM, "Lokiyawl2 lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,
  How does one test for internal shorts by doing a load test?  Good information.
James


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: "'Bill Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 06-26-2016 9:31 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion


 

Batteries, anchors, and other boat stuff that we all have firm options on...but for this posting I will stick to batteries.

In my experience one person's experience with a single product, is only misleading and proves nothing, especially batteries where there are at least 10 variables in addition to make and model.

For instance, I met a British guy in Turkey at a marina who was changing out his batteries. He had 14 years on them. He bought these batteries when he bought his boat, which was a Beneteau coming out of charter in Greece. He sailed to Marmaris Turkey where he lived aboard for 14 years. At least once a year, he would unplug and motor somewhere for the day.

I think that regardless what brand battery you buy, the most you can hope for is 4 years, if you actually are cruising.

BTW, the absolute worst brand that I bought was Varta  freedom style calcium batteries. I bought 13 in Greece. They started failing 3 months later with internal shorts. They failed one at a time. Had I not supervised them, I had about 8 opportunities for a major problem like Phantom's battery problem. Those 13 batteries were each discarded in 12 months. Johnson Controls UK, the company that manufactures Varta chose to do nothing, telling me to take up the issue with the Greek who also chose to do nothing. At the time that I bought Varta I was told that Varta bought the Delphi Battery plant in France where the original Amel batteries were made. My single experience shouldn't eliminate Varta from your choices, but it does for me. In my experience the best performing batteries have been the original Amel-installed Delphi Freedom batteries and the same battery made by the Delphi licensee in Istanbul, Turkey. Sadly, I do not believe those are available in Turkey anymore, and Delphi France is just a brand made by someone else since the GM liquidation of Delphi.

Be sure to load test and test for shorts any new batteries when they are delivered. The battery supplier should do this while you watch and should give you a printout for each battery. Or buy the digital battery tester and do it yourself, as I do. Out of 12 delivered, I had 2 batteries fail the internal short test.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Alternator wiring Volve D3-110i

ya_fohi
 

Thanks Jamie. I thought I sent a reply yesterday with a photo pasted into the message but I now see that it did not send. I'll try see how this is done.
Cheers,
Paul


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

Mark Erdos
 

I second Bill’s recommendation for this item and regular testing of the batteries. Because of his suggestion, I purchased a tester prior to departing on our cruise adventure. In the Bahamas a couple of months ago, I identified two bad batteries in our group of eight and was able to disconnect them. I re-arranged the 4 pairs of two to 3 pairs of two and reprogrammed the battery monitor for the 25% reduction of amp-hours. We continued our season the remaining 6 batteries. Now that we are back in an area of plenty, we can replace the bad batteries. Had I not checked or had the means to check, the bad batteries would certainly have damaged the remaining batteries in the group and caused us an unplanned expense, or worse.

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising:  Tampa Bay for hurricane season

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2016 8:53 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

 

 

James,

Buy a digital battery tester like the one any battery supplier has and most automotive shops have that test and printout the status, testing volts, charge state, current CCA, and test for internal shorts.

Or if you don't need a printout, buy the Solar brand Chinese knock-off. That is what I have and I test all batteries about every 3 months.

https://www.amazon.com/BA9-40-1200-Digital-Battery-System/dp/B00IZFNJ6Y

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jun 26, 2016 8:43 AM, "Lokiyawl2 lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Bill,

  How does one test for internal shorts by doing a load test?  Good information.

James

 

 

Sent from Samsung Mobile




-------- Original message --------

From: "'Bill Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 06-26-2016 9:31 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion


 

Batteries, anchors, and other boat stuff that we all have firm options on...but for this posting I will stick to batteries.

In my experience one person's experience with a single product, is only misleading and proves nothing, especially batteries where there are at least 10 variables in addition to make and model.

For instance, I met a British guy in Turkey at a marina who was changing out his batteries. He had 14 years on them. He bought these batteries when he bought his boat, which was a Beneteau coming out of charter in Greece. He sailed to Marmaris Turkey where he lived aboard for 14 years. At least once a year, he would unplug and motor somewhere for the day.

I think that regardless what brand battery you buy, the most you can hope for is 4 years, if you actually are cruising.

BTW, the absolute worst brand that I bought was Varta  freedom style calcium batteries. I bought 13 in Greece. They started failing 3 months later with internal shorts. They failed one at a time. Had I not supervised them, I had about 8 opportunities for a major problem like Phantom's battery problem. Those 13 batteries were each discarded in 12 months. Johnson Controls UK, the company that manufactures Varta chose to do nothing, telling me to take up the issue with the Greek who also chose to do nothing. At the time that I bought Varta I was told that Varta bought the Delphi Battery plant in France where the original Amel batteries were made. My single experience shouldn't eliminate Varta from your choices, but it does for me. In my experience the best performing batteries have been the original Amel-installed Delphi Freedom batteries and the same battery made by the Delphi licensee in Istanbul, Turkey. Sadly, I do not believe those are available in Turkey anymore, and Delphi France is just a brand made by someone else since the GM liquidation of Delphi.

Be sure to load test and test for shorts any new batteries when they are delivered. The battery supplier should do this while you watch and should give you a printout for each battery. Or buy the digital battery tester and do it yourself, as I do. Out of 12 delivered, I had 2 batteries fail the internal short test.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Jamie,

If you load-test (current CCA) and test for internal shorts before a passage, you should not worry about a major failure as you had. I have been testing batteries about every 3 months for at least 6 years. They fail one at a time. I did have the crappy Varta batteries fail one after another totaling 6 in two months before I could replace them. All you have to do is rearrange and disconnect the failing batteries from the bank in pairs. They are wired in series in pairs to the bank terminals. What this will cause you to do is charge more often. And if you want your battery monitor to report the correct state of remaining power, you have to change the total amps which is programmed into that monitor.

The only thing(s) that you need to do is monitor for too many amps going into the battery bank for too long (using your battery monitor), or monitor for battery compartment temperature...or both. I do both. I installed a simple two zone digital temperature device with an alarm. I think it cost me $15 in eBay. If I was doing it over, I might buy a better one, but this cheap China made device has worked flawlessly for at least three years.

After a little time you will love the simple genius of the Amel SM2k and 54 battery bank design.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jun 26, 2016 8:53 AM, "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks James, I suspect you are right about the bugs getting worked out of new brands. I believe Lifelines are made by the Concorde Battery Co, who as I understand makes batteries for the solar power industry. I think I will go with new Lifeline 31-XTs.
I think Bill said it best - when you are cruising 4 years or so is probably a good age to seriously think of replacing. I just cannot imagine what I would have done if my batteries had failed in the middle of the ocean - not to mention the cost of replacing in some remote port. Not that replacing my 13 batteries is going to be cheap!
Jamie
 
s/v Phantom Amel 54 #044


On Sunday, June 26, 2016 8:40 AM, "Lokiyawl2 lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
Jamie,
   The Lifeline batteries referred to in my previous post were installed just before the Millenium Odyssey so it could be that the bugs have been worked out by now, I have not kept up with.  I can tell you that on the course of the two year Circumnavigation that most or all of the Lifelines failed.  My customer was a bit hard on them with lots of 50 percent discharges..sometimes lower.  But he also did the same with the Sonennchein Prevailers and they survived.  I don't have the numbers in front of me but I seem to recall that the amp hours were about 10 percent less for the gels at the time. With the lack of self discharge and from them being more tolerant of deep discharges I think that the amp gap even when new is not that great in practice.  I did an amp draw down test on the removed gels after 7 plus years and they were still within 5 percent of rated.  I should do another somtime to how much is left at 20 years but I can tell you that I am still using one of these batteries in my Loki and it seems pretty healthy. These batteries were being used a lot in solar applications due to the long life.  I am not a battery expert but there seems to be a relationship between battery chemistries in that reduced gassing and low self discharge rates lead to lower capacity but long life and good reliability.  I know that these gels use a different electrolyte than regular wet cell and AGM's.  

Best,
James

Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 06-26-2016 8:57 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion


 
James, I am surprised that your customer experienced failures with his new Lifeline batteries. I was told they were the best by some of the electrical guys here in Annapolis, but now I am questioning that recommendation. I think maybe I will check out your suggestions. Do you know what model Lifeline went bad?
Wow, yours are 20 years old and my Initimidators failed at 4 years. I would have thought I would get at least 5 or 6, but I do not know the history of my batteries, as they came with the boat.
Thanks for the advice.
Jamie
 
s/v Phantom Amel 54 #044


On Sunday, June 26, 2016 12:45 AM, "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I had a customer that was leaving on a Circumnavigation and was concerned about the age (7+ years old at the time) of his perfectly performing Sonnechien Dry Fit German Gel batteries,  5- x 8D so a big bank.  He installed 5 x 8D Lifeline AGM’s and experienced numerous battery failures on the trip starting only 6 months out in the Pacific after departure requiring very expensive air shipments.  I am still using the 5 Sonneschien Dry Fit batteries removed from the boat, 0 failures so far.  We reinstalled the same upon his return to the US and had no further problems up until the time he sold the boat about 8 years later which puts my batteries over 20 years old.  Fort Lauderdale Battery used to sell the Sonneschien and still had some good specimens of this same type the last time that I talked to them which had lasted as long plus a lot more experience than I if you want to inquire. ( I have no connection with this firm other than battery purchases)   The dry fit batteries have been replaced by an Exide "Traction” Gel Battery which has the same case and supposed to be essentially the same battery.  No problems so far but my experience so far is limited to 3 years with these batteries as they are relatively new.   The Dry Fits were touted as being having very low gassing btw.  Despite some abuse, I have never seen any of these swell, crack or ever leak anything.

Glad to hear that the damage is less than you originally thought.  Best of luck in making a good decision with preventing future problems

James

SV Sueno Amel Maramu 220
On Jun 25, 2016, at 12:24 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Thanks everyone for the support and suggestions. We are cleaning things up and it may not be as bad as I originally thought. Somehow one or two of the batteries failed and caused the explosion. I guess my lessons learned is to suspect batteries when they get close to the end of life. I did not know that.
Jamie
 
s/v Phantom Amel 54 #044


On Friday, June 24, 2016 5:18 PM, "seafeverofcuan@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
Dear Jamie,
                  I had thermal runaway on a set of Vetus wet cell batteries that were eighteen months old.
The incident happened at the top of the Sea of Cortez under sail, there was no explosion, I was alerted to it by the smell.
The battery box was hot to touch and I was terrified to open it. The inside was covered in battery acid, all the cables were destroyed, four batteries were cracked, eight batteries had buckled cases.
Four were serviceable which I hooked together to allow me to return to Mazatlan for repairs.
It was a harrowing experience as the temperatures of each battery kept rising for hours as they sat overnight on a dock.
I have met a number of people with variations of the same theme.
Good luck with your new engine.
Fair Winds
Trevor Lusty
Former owner of Seafever
SM 425
Ire land










Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

James,

Buy a digital battery tester like the one any battery supplier has and most automotive shops have that test and printout the status, testing volts, charge state, current CCA, and test for internal shorts.

Or if you don't need a printout, buy the Solar brand Chinese knock-off. That is what I have and I test all batteries about every 3 months.

https://www.amazon.com/BA9-40-1200-Digital-Battery-System/dp/B00IZFNJ6Y

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jun 26, 2016 8:43 AM, "Lokiyawl2 lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,
  How does one test for internal shorts by doing a load test?  Good information.
James


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: "'Bill Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 06-26-2016 9:31 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion


 

Batteries, anchors, and other boat stuff that we all have firm options on...but for this posting I will stick to batteries.

In my experience one person's experience with a single product, is only misleading and proves nothing, especially batteries where there are at least 10 variables in addition to make and model.

For instance, I met a British guy in Turkey at a marina who was changing out his batteries. He had 14 years on them. He bought these batteries when he bought his boat, which was a Beneteau coming out of charter in Greece. He sailed to Marmaris Turkey where he lived aboard for 14 years. At least once a year, he would unplug and motor somewhere for the day.

I think that regardless what brand battery you buy, the most you can hope for is 4 years, if you actually are cruising.

BTW, the absolute worst brand that I bought was Varta  freedom style calcium batteries. I bought 13 in Greece. They started failing 3 months later with internal shorts. They failed one at a time. Had I not supervised them, I had about 8 opportunities for a major problem like Phantom's battery problem. Those 13 batteries were each discarded in 12 months. Johnson Controls UK, the company that manufactures Varta chose to do nothing, telling me to take up the issue with the Greek who also chose to do nothing. At the time that I bought Varta I was told that Varta bought the Delphi Battery plant in France where the original Amel batteries were made. My single experience shouldn't eliminate Varta from your choices, but it does for me. In my experience the best performing batteries have been the original Amel-installed Delphi Freedom batteries and the same battery made by the Delphi licensee in Istanbul, Turkey. Sadly, I do not believe those are available in Turkey anymore, and Delphi France is just a brand made by someone else since the GM liquidation of Delphi.

Be sure to load test and test for shorts any new batteries when they are delivered. The battery supplier should do this while you watch and should give you a printout for each battery. Or buy the digital battery tester and do it yourself, as I do. Out of 12 delivered, I had 2 batteries fail the internal short test.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

Thanks James, I suspect you are right about the bugs getting worked out of new brands. I believe Lifelines are made by the Concorde Battery Co, who as I understand makes batteries for the solar power industry. I think I will go with new Lifeline 31-XTs.
I think Bill said it best - when you are cruising 4 years or so is probably a good age to seriously think of replacing. I just cannot imagine what I would have done if my batteries had failed in the middle of the ocean - not to mention the cost of replacing in some remote port. Not that replacing my 13 batteries is going to be cheap!
Jamie
 
s/v Phantom Amel 54 #044


On Sunday, June 26, 2016 8:40 AM, "Lokiyawl2 lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
Jamie,
   The Lifeline batteries referred to in my previous post were installed just before the Millenium Odyssey so it could be that the bugs have been worked out by now, I have not kept up with.  I can tell you that on the course of the two year Circumnavigation that most or all of the Lifelines failed.  My customer was a bit hard on them with lots of 50 percent discharges..sometimes lower.  But he also did the same with the Sonennchein Prevailers and they survived.  I don't have the numbers in front of me but I seem to recall that the amp hours were about 10 percent less for the gels at the time. With the lack of self discharge and from them being more tolerant of deep discharges I think that the amp gap even when new is not that great in practice.  I did an amp draw down test on the removed gels after 7 plus years and they were still within 5 percent of rated.  I should do another somtime to how much is left at 20 years but I can tell you that I am still using one of these batteries in my Loki and it seems pretty healthy. These batteries were being used a lot in solar applications due to the long life.  I am not a battery expert but there seems to be a relationship between battery chemistries in that reduced gassing and low self discharge rates lead to lower capacity but long life and good reliability.  I know that these gels use a different electrolyte than regular wet cell and AGM's.  

Best,
James

Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]"
Date: 06-26-2016 8:57 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion


 
James, I am surprised that your customer experienced failures with his new Lifeline batteries. I was told they were the best by some of the electrical guys here in Annapolis, but now I am questioning that recommendation. I think maybe I will check out your suggestions. Do you know what model Lifeline went bad?
Wow, yours are 20 years old and my Initimidators failed at 4 years. I would have thought I would get at least 5 or 6, but I do not know the history of my batteries, as they came with the boat.
Thanks for the advice.
Jamie
 
s/v Phantom Amel 54 #044


On Sunday, June 26, 2016 12:45 AM, "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
I had a customer that was leaving on a Circumnavigation and was concerned about the age (7+ years old at the time) of his perfectly performing Sonnechien Dry Fit German Gel batteries,  5- x 8D so a big bank.  He installed 5 x 8D Lifeline AGM’s and experienced numerous battery failures on the trip starting only 6 months out in the Pacific after departure requiring very expensive air shipments.  I am still using the 5 Sonneschien Dry Fit batteries removed from the boat, 0 failures so far.  We reinstalled the same upon his return to the US and had no further problems up until the time he sold the boat about 8 years later which puts my batteries over 20 years old.  Fort Lauderdale Battery used to sell the Sonneschien and still had some good specimens of this same type the last time that I talked to them which had lasted as long plus a lot more experience than I if you want to inquire. ( I have no connection with this firm other than battery purchases)   The dry fit batteries have been replaced by an Exide "Traction” Gel Battery which has the same case and supposed to be essentially the same battery.  No problems so far but my experience so far is limited to 3 years with these batteries as they are relatively new.   The Dry Fits were touted as being having very low gassing btw.  Despite some abuse, I have never seen any of these swell, crack or ever leak anything.

Glad to hear that the damage is less than you originally thought.  Best of luck in making a good decision with preventing future problems

James

SV Sueno Amel Maramu 220
On Jun 25, 2016, at 12:24 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Thanks everyone for the support and suggestions. We are cleaning things up and it may not be as bad as I originally thought. Somehow one or two of the batteries failed and caused the explosion. I guess my lessons learned is to suspect batteries when they get close to the end of life. I did not know that.
Jamie
 
s/v Phantom Amel 54 #044


On Friday, June 24, 2016 5:18 PM, "seafeverofcuan@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
Dear Jamie,
                  I had thermal runaway on a set of Vetus wet cell batteries that were eighteen months old.
The incident happened at the top of the Sea of Cortez under sail, there was no explosion, I was alerted to it by the smell.
The battery box was hot to touch and I was terrified to open it. The inside was covered in battery acid, all the cables were destroyed, four batteries were cracked, eight batteries had buckled cases.
Four were serviceable which I hooked together to allow me to return to Mazatlan for repairs.
It was a harrowing experience as the temperatures of each battery kept rising for hours as they sat overnight on a dock.
I have met a number of people with variations of the same theme.
Good luck with your new engine.
Fair Winds
Trevor Lusty
Former owner of Seafever
SM 425
Ire land










Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

James Alton
 

Bill,
  How does one test for internal shorts by doing a load test?  Good information.
James


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 06-26-2016 9:31 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion


 

Batteries, anchors, and other boat stuff that we all have firm options on...but for this posting I will stick to batteries.

In my experience one person's experience with a single product, is only misleading and proves nothing, especially batteries where there are at least 10 variables in addition to make and model.

For instance, I met a British guy in Turkey at a marina who was changing out his batteries. He had 14 years on them. He bought these batteries when he bought his boat, which was a Beneteau coming out of charter in Greece. He sailed to Marmaris Turkey where he lived aboard for 14 years. At least once a year, he would unplug and motor somewhere for the day.

I think that regardless what brand battery you buy, the most you can hope for is 4 years, if you actually are cruising.

BTW, the absolute worst brand that I bought was Varta  freedom style calcium batteries. I bought 13 in Greece. They started failing 3 months later with internal shorts. They failed one at a time. Had I not supervised them, I had about 8 opportunities for a major problem like Phantom's battery problem. Those 13 batteries were each discarded in 12 months. Johnson Controls UK, the company that manufactures Varta chose to do nothing, telling me to take up the issue with the Greek who also chose to do nothing. At the time that I bought Varta I was told that Varta bought the Delphi Battery plant in France where the original Amel batteries were made. My single experience shouldn't eliminate Varta from your choices, but it does for me. In my experience the best performing batteries have been the original Amel-installed Delphi Freedom batteries and the same battery made by the Delphi licensee in Istanbul, Turkey. Sadly, I do not believe those are available in Turkey anymore, and Delphi France is just a brand made by someone else since the GM liquidation of Delphi.

Be sure to load test and test for shorts any new batteries when they are delivered. The battery supplier should do this while you watch and should give you a printout for each battery. Or buy the digital battery tester and do it yourself, as I do. Out of 12 delivered, I had 2 batteries fail the internal short test.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

James Alton
 

Jamie,
   The Lifeline batteries referred to in my previous post were installed just before the Millenium Odyssey so it could be that the bugs have been worked out by now, I have not kept up with.  I can tell you that on the course of the two year Circumnavigation that most or all of the Lifelines failed.  My customer was a bit hard on them with lots of 50 percent discharges..sometimes lower.  But he also did the same with the Sonennchein Prevailers and they survived.  I don't have the numbers in front of me but I seem to recall that the amp hours were about 10 percent less for the gels at the time. With the lack of self discharge and from them being more tolerant of deep discharges I think that the amp gap even when new is not that great in practice.  I did an amp draw down test on the removed gels after 7 plus years and they were still within 5 percent of rated.  I should do another somtime to how much is left at 20 years but I can tell you that I am still using one of these batteries in my Loki and it seems pretty healthy. These batteries were being used a lot in solar applications due to the long life.  I am not a battery expert but there seems to be a relationship between battery chemistries in that reduced gassing and low self discharge rates lead to lower capacity but long life and good reliability.  I know that these gels use a different electrolyte than regular wet cell and AGM's.  

Best,
James

Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 06-26-2016 8:57 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion


 

James, I am surprised that your customer experienced failures with his new Lifeline batteries. I was told they were the best by some of the electrical guys here in Annapolis, but now I am questioning that recommendation. I think maybe I will check out your suggestions. Do you know what model Lifeline went bad?
Wow, yours are 20 years old and my Initimidators failed at 4 years. I would have thought I would get at least 5 or 6, but I do not know the history of my batteries, as they came with the boat.
Thanks for the advice.
Jamie
 
s/v Phantom Amel 54 #044


On Sunday, June 26, 2016 12:45 AM, "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I had a customer that was leaving on a Circumnavigation and was concerned about the age (7+ years old at the time) of his perfectly performing Sonnechien Dry Fit German Gel batteries,  5- x 8D so a big bank.  He installed 5 x 8D Lifeline AGM’s and experienced numerous battery failures on the trip starting only 6 months out in the Pacific after departure requiring very expensive air shipments.  I am still using the 5 Sonneschien Dry Fit batteries removed from the boat, 0 failures so far.  We reinstalled the same upon his return to the US and had no further problems up until the time he sold the boat about 8 years later which puts my batteries over 20 years old.  Fort Lauderdale Battery used to sell the Sonneschien and still had some good specimens of this same type the last time that I talked to them which had lasted as long plus a lot more experience than I if you want to inquire. ( I have no connection with this firm other than battery purchases)   The dry fit batteries have been replaced by an Exide "Traction” Gel Battery which has the same case and supposed to be essentially the same battery.  No problems so far but my experience so far is limited to 3 years with these batteries as they are relatively new.   The Dry Fits were touted as being having very low gassing btw.  Despite some abuse, I have never seen any of these swell, crack or ever leak anything.

Glad to hear that the damage is less than you originally thought.  Best of luck in making a good decision with preventing future problems

James

SV Sueno Amel Maramu 220
On Jun 25, 2016, at 12:24 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Thanks everyone for the support and suggestions. We are cleaning things up and it may not be as bad as I originally thought. Somehow one or two of the batteries failed and caused the explosion. I guess my lessons learned is to suspect batteries when they get close to the end of life. I did not know that.
Jamie
 
s/v Phantom Amel 54 #044


On Friday, June 24, 2016 5:18 PM, "seafeverofcuan@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
Dear Jamie,
                  I had thermal runaway on a set of Vetus wet cell batteries that were eighteen months old.
The incident happened at the top of the Sea of Cortez under sail, there was no explosion, I was alerted to it by the smell.
The battery box was hot to touch and I was terrified to open it. The inside was covered in battery acid, all the cables were destroyed, four batteries were cracked, eight batteries had buckled cases.
Four were serviceable which I hooked together to allow me to return to Mazatlan for repairs.
It was a harrowing experience as the temperatures of each battery kept rising for hours as they sat overnight on a dock.
I have met a number of people with variations of the same theme.
Good luck with your new engine.
Fair Winds
Trevor Lusty
Former owner of Seafever
SM 425
Ire land








Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Batteries, anchors, and other boat stuff that we all have firm options on...but for this posting I will stick to batteries.

In my experience one person's experience with a single product, is only misleading and proves nothing, especially batteries where there are at least 10 variables in addition to make and model.

For instance, I met a British guy in Turkey at a marina who was changing out his batteries. He had 14 years on them. He bought these batteries when he bought his boat, which was a Beneteau coming out of charter in Greece. He sailed to Marmaris Turkey where he lived aboard for 14 years. At least once a year, he would unplug and motor somewhere for the day.

I think that regardless what brand battery you buy, the most you can hope for is 4 years, if you actually are cruising.

BTW, the absolute worst brand that I bought was Varta  freedom style calcium batteries. I bought 13 in Greece. They started failing 3 months later with internal shorts. They failed one at a time. Had I not supervised them, I had about 8 opportunities for a major problem like Phantom's battery problem. Those 13 batteries were each discarded in 12 months. Johnson Controls UK, the company that manufactures Varta chose to do nothing, telling me to take up the issue with the Greek who also chose to do nothing. At the time that I bought Varta I was told that Varta bought the Delphi Battery plant in France where the original Amel batteries were made. My single experience shouldn't eliminate Varta from your choices, but it does for me. In my experience the best performing batteries have been the original Amel-installed Delphi Freedom batteries and the same battery made by the Delphi licensee in Istanbul, Turkey. Sadly, I do not believe those are available in Turkey anymore, and Delphi France is just a brand made by someone else since the GM liquidation of Delphi.

Be sure to load test and test for shorts any new batteries when they are delivered. The battery supplier should do this while you watch and should give you a printout for each battery. Or buy the digital battery tester and do it yourself, as I do. Out of 12 delivered, I had 2 batteries fail the internal short test.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

James, I am surprised that your customer experienced failures with his new Lifeline batteries. I was told they were the best by some of the electrical guys here in Annapolis, but now I am questioning that recommendation. I think maybe I will check out your suggestions. Do you know what model Lifeline went bad?
Wow, yours are 20 years old and my Initimidators failed at 4 years. I would have thought I would get at least 5 or 6, but I do not know the history of my batteries, as they came with the boat.
Thanks for the advice.
Jamie
 
s/v Phantom Amel 54 #044


On Sunday, June 26, 2016 12:45 AM, "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
I had a customer that was leaving on a Circumnavigation and was concerned about the age (7+ years old at the time) of his perfectly performing Sonnechien Dry Fit German Gel batteries,  5- x 8D so a big bank.  He installed 5 x 8D Lifeline AGM’s and experienced numerous battery failures on the trip starting only 6 months out in the Pacific after departure requiring very expensive air shipments.  I am still using the 5 Sonneschien Dry Fit batteries removed from the boat, 0 failures so far.  We reinstalled the same upon his return to the US and had no further problems up until the time he sold the boat about 8 years later which puts my batteries over 20 years old.  Fort Lauderdale Battery used to sell the Sonneschien and still had some good specimens of this same type the last time that I talked to them which had lasted as long plus a lot more experience than I if you want to inquire. ( I have no connection with this firm other than battery purchases)   The dry fit batteries have been replaced by an Exide "Traction” Gel Battery which has the same case and supposed to be essentially the same battery.  No problems so far but my experience so far is limited to 3 years with these batteries as they are relatively new.   The Dry Fits were touted as being having very low gassing btw.  Despite some abuse, I have never seen any of these swell, crack or ever leak anything.

Glad to hear that the damage is less than you originally thought.  Best of luck in making a good decision with preventing future problems

James

SV Sueno Amel Maramu 220
On Jun 25, 2016, at 12:24 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Thanks everyone for the support and suggestions. We are cleaning things up and it may not be as bad as I originally thought. Somehow one or two of the batteries failed and caused the explosion. I guess my lessons learned is to suspect batteries when they get close to the end of life. I did not know that.
Jamie
 
s/v Phantom Amel 54 #044


On Friday, June 24, 2016 5:18 PM, "seafeverofcuan@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
Dear Jamie,
                  I had thermal runaway on a set of Vetus wet cell batteries that were eighteen months old.
The incident happened at the top of the Sea of Cortez under sail, there was no explosion, I was alerted to it by the smell.
The battery box was hot to touch and I was terrified to open it. The inside was covered in battery acid, all the cables were destroyed, four batteries were cracked, eight batteries had buckled cases.
Four were serviceable which I hooked together to allow me to return to Mazatlan for repairs.
It was a harrowing experience as the temperatures of each battery kept rising for hours as they sat overnight on a dock.
I have met a number of people with variations of the same theme.
Good luck with your new engine.
Fair Winds
Trevor Lusty
Former owner of Seafever
SM 425
Ire land








Re: Alternator wiring Volve D3-110i

ESTELLER
 

Hi,
I put some photos in may 21 2014 that perhaps can help you.
If not I return to ORION, currently  in GOUVIA,  on july 20 and can take best photos

José AMEL 54 ORION 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion

James Alton
 

I had a customer that was leaving on a Circumnavigation and was concerned about the age (7+ years old at the time) of his perfectly performing Sonnechien Dry Fit German Gel batteries,  5- x 8D so a big bank.  He installed 5 x 8D Lifeline AGM’s and experienced numerous battery failures on the trip starting only 6 months out in the Pacific after departure requiring very expensive air shipments.  I am still using the 5 Sonneschien Dry Fit batteries removed from the boat, 0 failures so far.  We reinstalled the same upon his return to the US and had no further problems up until the time he sold the boat about 8 years later which puts my batteries over 20 years old.  Fort Lauderdale Battery used to sell the Sonneschien and still had some good specimens of this same type the last time that I talked to them which had lasted as long plus a lot more experience than I if you want to inquire. ( I have no connection with this firm other than battery purchases)   The dry fit batteries have been replaced by an Exide "Traction” Gel Battery which has the same case and supposed to be essentially the same battery.  No problems so far but my experience so far is limited to 3 years with these batteries as they are relatively new.   The Dry Fits were touted as being having very low gassing btw.  Despite some abuse, I have never seen any of these swell, crack or ever leak anything.

Glad to hear that the damage is less than you originally thought.  Best of luck in making a good decision with preventing future problems

James

SV Sueno Amel Maramu 220

On Jun 25, 2016, at 12:24 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Thanks everyone for the support and suggestions. We are cleaning things up and it may not be as bad as I originally thought. Somehow one or two of the batteries failed and caused the explosion. I guess my lessons learned is to suspect batteries when they get close to the end of life. I did not know that.
Jamie
 
s/v Phantom Amel 54 #044


On Friday, June 24, 2016 5:18 PM, "seafeverofcuan@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
Dear Jamie,
                  I had thermal runaway on a set of Vetus wet cell batteries that were eighteen months old.
The incident happened at the top of the Sea of Cortez under sail, there was no explosion, I was alerted to it by the smell.
The battery box was hot to touch and I was terrified to open it. The inside was covered in battery acid, all the cables were destroyed, four batteries were cracked, eight batteries had buckled cases.
Four were serviceable which I hooked together to allow me to return to Mazatlan for repairs.
It was a harrowing experience as the temperatures of each battery kept rising for hours as they sat overnight on a dock.
I have met a number of people with variations of the same theme.
Good luck with your new engine.
Fair Winds
Trevor Lusty
Former owner of Seafever
SM 425
Ire land






Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Lightning Strike Chesapeake

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good evening Pat,

Thanks for your sympathy.
Well if you have Pantaenius, then no problem, they cover 100% of the lightning damages!
I already contact them as my next insurer, they are quite more expensive, I found strange the way they start with 40% Bonus, etc. (another topic).
Also heard sometime they cancel policy quickly (for cruising in some areas).
So haven’t made my decision yet.
Please keep us inform of how the whole claim, repair, etc. is going.
Sincerely, Alexandre




--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 6/25/16, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@aol.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Lightning Strike Chesapeake
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, June 25, 2016, 11:09 AM


 










Alexandre, I remember your problem, sorry it
is still not resolved. I have Pantaenius and I think their
coverage is good , no deductible and items not depreciated ,
replaced with new.

 Thanks,

Pat







-----Original
Message-----

From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@rocketmail.com
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>

To: amelyachtowners
<amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Sat, Jun 25, 2016 8:32 am

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Lightning Strike
Chesapeake










 













Good morning Pat,





Not going into detail, but I had an accident 2 years ago in
Nassau (not at fault since I was stationary in my slip at
the marina - someone lost control, panic and run into me).



The expert provided by “my” insurance was awful and I am
still fighting (conference call monday morning).





Don’t know who is your insurance, I read Pantaenius cover
100% for lighting strike, mine (Helvetia) will remove value
because the equipment is older, not sure what decrease of
value they would give a perfectly working radar which is 16
year old… probably closed to nothing…





I met 3 (non Amel) boat owners, I was shock by the total
cost $100.000… in their case everything was destroyed
(radio, radar, AIS, chargers, inverter, batteries, lights,
etc. even some electric wire), one guy had his carbon mast
getting on fire…





Personally, just having a bad experience with my insurance,
I would read all I can about damages created by lightning
and also hire another expert…





Good luck, keep up posted on the progress…





Alexandre





--------------------------------------------


On Sat, 6/25/16, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@aol.com
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:





Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Lightning Strike
Chesapeake


To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com


Date: Saturday, June 25, 2016, 7:03 AM








 
































Alexandre, I have never dealt with an


insurance claim , auto ,home ,health or boat . I will
assume


my insurance co. will do right by me ,unless I see
evidence


to the contrary. They are going to send someone out to


assess things and then find someone to do the repairs.
That


is my main concern , finding someone that is qualified to
do


a proper and complete job. I will make sure the


mechanic's primary interest is in doing a complete
job


.





Thanks,





Pat









































-----Original


Message-----





From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@rocketmail.com


[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>





To: amelyachtowners


<amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>





Sent: Fri, Jun 24, 2016 6:43 pm





Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Lightning Strike


Chesapeake
































 









































Definitely sorry to read about this Pat,








This is always my fear… and yes definitely lots
things


affected can not be apparent, so make sure the expert
you


use is not related with your insurance. 2 years later, i
am


still fighting my insurance…

















Sincerely, Alexandre








SM2K #289 NIKIMAT








Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico

















--------------------------------------------








On Fri, 6/24/16, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@aol.com


[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>


wrote:

















Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Lightning Strike


Chesapeake








To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com








Date: Friday, June 24, 2016, 2:24 PM


























 


































































































Kent, I will keep his contact info. I would








like to find someone close to home so I could be


available








to help assess situations and oversee work . Sorry to
say


,








but I little faith , thus like to have eyes on. There
are


so








many things that could have been affected , yet not


apparent








. I would complain about this being a hassle , but then








compared to what you have been through , its a mere


hiccup








.

















Thanks,

















Pat







































































-----Original








Message-----

















From: Kent Robertson karkauai@yahoo.com


[amelyachtowners]








<amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>

















To: amelyachtowners








<amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>

















Sent: Fri, Jun 24, 2016 9:51 am

















Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Lightning Strike
Chesapeake


































































































 















































































































































Hi Pat, sorry to hear about your lightning strike.  I








have been very comfortable with the Deltaville Boat


Yard.








 Keith Ruse runs the yard and really likes Amels.
 His








electrician was the only one I could find in the East


coast








who understood the engine electrical isolation issue
and


did








a great job on it for me.  Call Keith 804-776-8900 and


talk








to him about your damage.  Maybe ask to speak with the








electrician to make sure he's familiar with your








equipment.  Things like the 24/12V autopilot (which I








don't fully understand yet) would let you know if








he's up to the job.  The one who did my engine








isolation was Neal.





















































Hope you get it sorted out without too much








hassle.

















Kent

















SM243

















Kristy

















Currently Curaçao 
On Jun 24, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@aol.com








[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>








wrote:




























































































































































































 











































































































James, I am








sorry to read about your problem. I have owned my boat


for








about ten years , and have felt fortunate that I have


not








had to deal with some of the problems others have had ,








until this past Tuesday. For the past 40 years of
owning








boats , I have had my fingers crossed every time an








electrical storm moved through my area , my luck ran
out








Tuesday. While I see know physical damage to the boat ,


most








of my electrical instruments have been damaged. James
if


you








or anyone have found someone well versed in the


electrical








side of the Amel in the northern end of the Chesapeake
Bay


I








would appreciate their name. James , best of luck to
you


and








I hope you only have smooth seas ahead , you deserve








it.


































































































Pat



































SM Shenanigans



































Sassafras River , Md.




















































































































-----Original








Message-----


























From: James Wendell ms42phantom54@yahoo.com








[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>


























To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>


























Sent: Fri, Jun 24, 2016 6:49 am


























Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Battery Compartment








Explosion






































































































































 























































































































































































































I








hear from Danny that the SM has battery compartment


venting








at the bottom that allows air to move up through the


battery








compartment. That is the way to do it, as it allows


make-up








air to enter and go out the exhaust and therefore vent


any








hydrogen sulfide if it is released. While wet cells


will








release small amounts of H2S in operation, normally,
AGM








batteries do not release gas, as it is recombined








internally. Vents at the bottom would also prevent any








gasses from leaking into the boat itself.


































































































The








54 does not have any ingress, only egress through the








vent. It is sealed tight. That is what caused the


build-up








of hydrogen gas. The batteries themselves did not
explode


-








2 of them cracked a bit at the top, which is what
caused


the








gas to release. The others were damaged as a result of


the








explosion.


































































































I am








sorry to disagree with other opinions, but air


circulation








is needed. Yes hydrogen sulfide is a toxic agent, but


after








my experience, it would be far better to let a little
bit


of








it vent into the boat in an emergency situation, versus








contain it in an enclosure that is essentially a bomb


when








the battery vents faster than the passive vent can


exhaust








it outside. In reality, it would not vent into the boat


if








the air intake is lower than the exhaust. H2








S is lighter than air and will rise naturally.


































































































Just








for clarification, there was no essentially no charging








occurring here; while no one has definitively
identified


the








culprit, the accepted conclusion at this point is that


one








or two of the batteries suffered an internal short and








breached on their own - likely because they were
nearing


the








end of life at 4 years, but they came with the boat and


I








have no record of their service history. There was a


slight








solar power charge coming in, but it was early in the








morning and little sun would have been illuminating the








panels. There IS temperature compensation, and the
solar








charger is a nearly new 45-amp Morningstar MPPT


controller.








While it certainly could have failed, it was operating


fine








just before the event.


































































































I








will report more if my insurance surveyor or the


electrical








experts here in the yard are able to offer additional








inputs.


































































































Just








as a side note, I know Amels are good boats, and I see


that.








They are well built. However, I have noted some








less-than-stellar design decisions that likely are more


the








result of EU regulations rather than Amel








philosophy.


































































































I








have owned the boat now for just over a year. I have








only sailed/motored it for 4 days last June. Imme








diately after that initial delivery the engine failed.
I


am








not going to repeat that story, but the final analysis








proved that during my 4-day motor from FL to MD,


saltwater








had migrated into the exhaust manifold and up into the


head








- not because of cranking. When the water evaporated a


week








after arrival in MD, salt crystals remained in the


engine








and pitted the valves and valve seats. That seriously








compromised the engine and the only good solution was a


new








engine. Yes, I could have rebuilt it for about half the


cost








- not worth it as there was a fair amount of external








corrosion on the starboard aft side of the engine. The








second design flaw is that there are NO fuses in any of


the








primary DC feeders from the batteries. That is a
serious








issue, as any short-to-ground or system overloads would


have








overheated the circuit and caused the affected wire to


melt








or catch on fire. Fuses are needed to protect the wires


at








the battery. I changed all of that and now have an
array








of fuses in the compartment adjacent to the
batteries.


And








now the sealed battery compartment issue.


































































































Perhaps








I am venting now, but as others have noted, I will


persevere








and resolve all of these issues. I do appreciate the


quality








that goes into these yachts.


































































































Thanks








for the support - that is what this group is all








about.



































Jamie








Wendell





































































































































































































 



































s/v Phantom Amel 54








#044



















































































































































































On Friday, June








24, 2016 3:28 AM, "Jean-Pierre Germain jgermain@xs4all.nl








[amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>








wrote:

































































































































































 





































































































































































































Hello James,
















































































Your AMEL








ownership has been marred by unusual problems; mine has


also








not been a bed of roses but for different reasons. 
















































































I had a NICAD








battery runaway once. At High altitude, The events take


a








different dimension. 
















































































Persevere, these








are good boats and you will be well rewarded








eventually
















































































GL
















































































Jean-Pierre








Germain



































Eleuthera, SM007 
On 24 Jun 2016, at 08:10, Danny and








Yvonne SIMMS simms@xtra.co.nz








[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>








wrote:




























































































































































































 
























































































































































Hi








James, how horrible. We all feel for you. You say the








battery compartment is sealed apart from the vent. On
our


SM








299 there are five vents at floor level in the bottom
of


the








battery compartment to allow air to enter. Does the 54


not








have these vents.



































Regards



































Danny



































SM








299 Ocean Pearl
























































































































































From: "James








Wendell ms42phantom54@yahoo..com
[amelyachtowners]"








<amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>








To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com"








<amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>

















Sent: Friday, 24 June








2016 12:30 PM








Subject: [Amel Yacht








Owners] Battery Compartment Explosion











































































































 























































































































































































































I am








not sure if anyone has ever experienced what just


happened








to me, but I think it is important info for everyone
out








there. My battery compartment exploded early yesterday








morning. No one is certain exactly what happened, and
no


one








who has investigated the accident has ever seen this


occur.








I am still up on the hard in Annapolis trying to get my


new








engine installation completed - that was a subject of a








previous thread, and I will update everyone who
followed








that thread separately once I get my new engine








running.
















































































The








explosion was quite severe and apparently set off my


smoke








detector which everyone in the yard heard. There was no








fire. Oddly no one claims they heard the explosion


itself,








as it may have happened before the contractors started


to








come in for work. It blew the lid completely off of the








passageway berth and into the ceiling, jamming it


between








the wall of the aft closet and the wall near the nav


station








closet. Fortunately no one was on the boat at the time,


but








if someone had been in the passageway between the main








saloon and the aft cabin, they would have been
seriously








injured or even killed. I do not want to even speculate


what








would have happened if someone had been sleeping on the








berth. I had some parts and tools sitting on the berth








cushion and they were either shredded, melted, or


survived








depending on the material. It








was a scary situation.
















































































I am








working with my insurance company and they hired a
local








surveyor to assess the situation. They, as I do, want
to








know the reason for the explosion. Beyond the damage to


the








compartment lid/berth and the surrounding woodwork,
here


are








the facts:






























































At








least 2 of the AGM batteries had been breached with


cracks








in the tops. None of the VRLA valves had popped.








A few








of the batteries were b








ulged out at the sides. Not clear if that happened








initially or as a result of the explosion. Ultimately


about








half of the 12 on the 24-volt side were
"bad."








My








shore power connections were off. The only charging


source








would have been wind and solar. Both of those systems


have








been working correctly for a long time, and early in
the








morning there was no wind and not much sun. We do not


think








it was an overcharge issue. I have multiple monitoring








systems including the Xantrex that came with the boat,


plus








a Maretron monitor and Blue Sea meters. All were
nominal








when I left the boat before the explosion. Voltage was


about








27.5 and there was a small load of maybe 3 or 4 amps
DC,








easily absorbed with the solar panels.








The








batteries are a little over 4 years old and came with


the








boat. I have never had a problem with them








, and the charging systems have never pushed above 28








volts.The








battery setup was reworked last winter by a very good








contractor here in the yard. They added fuses to all
the








loads, and it has worked very well for months now. I
find


it








hard to believe that there was no primary battery
fusing


on








the boat at all, but that is still another topic for


review.








However, the explosion would not have been related to








current flow and hence the fusing was not an issue one


way








or the other.I








have 12 Intimidator AGM batteries in the battery area
with


a








12V starting battery.Testing








them after the accident revealed about half of them to


be








unserviceable (either electrically or physically).






























































It is clear to the investigators that the








explosion was the result of hydrogen gas buildup in the








battery compartment. The problem they observed is that








(while there is a vent at the forward part of the


battery








compartment, Amel seals the compartment completely).








Normally the vent is OK, as any residual hydrogen will








escape out the vent.. But the Amel setup prevents any


makeup








air from entering the compartment. Normally AGM
batteries


do








not vent externally, as the hydrogen sulfide normally








released in a flooded battery is actually recombined in


an








AGM setup. There are valves in a VRLA battery, which
are








supposed to open if the internal pressure gets too
high.








However, if the casing is breached, gasses will release








immediately, which is what happened here. What no one


knows








yet is why the batteries cracked open. The bottom line


is








that the vent could not release the gas fast enough,
and


the








hydrogen gas exploded as it built up








in the sealed compartment.
















































































I am








going to modify the configuration by adding ventilation


to








the front of the battery compartment. I am also going
to








install 13 new Lifeline batteries (12 31-XT and 1 31T








battery for starting). Good quality batteries with a








modified install should prevent a recurrence. What a








mess.................
















































































All I








can say is thank goodness no one was hurt.






























































<








div dir="ltr"









id="yiv8910840589yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1466724755081_7177">Jamie








Wendell







































































 



































s/v Phantom Amel








54 #044



















































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































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