Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

Andrew & Kate Lamb
 

There is only a breaker for the bow thruster control circuits on the main panel above the Galley - there is no breaker for the motor itself as currents can get to over 400 amps

Andrew

SM 472


On 6 Dec 2015, at 03:46, sailormon kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,

I do not believe there is a breaker for the bow thruster, There might be a Gigondo fuse somewhere but I doubt it.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2015 6:57 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

 

 

Where is the breaker for the bow thruster, if there is one?
Thanks,
Kent
SM253
Kristy


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

eric freedman
 

Richard,

Isn’t that for the control circuit of the thruster?

The bow thruster is , I believe 10 Horsepower which would be 7800 watts or a 700 Amp breaker figuring a 100% safety factor.

That would be one heck of a circuit breaker.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2015 8:01 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

 

 

Kent forward cabin port side upper cabinet 

Fair Winds Smooth Sailing To All

Capt Richard 

RP Yacht Brokerage

Newport RI 

We list sell and service fine yachts including Amel's

Cell 603 767 5330


On Dec 5, 2015, at 17:57, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Where is the breaker for the bow thruster, if there is one?
Thanks,
Kent
SM253
Kristy


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

eric freedman
 

Kent,

I do not believe there is a breaker for the bow thruster, There might be a Gigondo fuse somewhere but I doubt it.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2015 6:57 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

 

 

Where is the breaker for the bow thruster, if there is one?
Thanks,
Kent
SM253
Kristy


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Yahoo changes...

Rick Grimes
 

If I were king of the Amel Forum, I would move away from Yahoo altogether and subscribe to a more contemporary platform--then migrate all the Amel forum archives over to the new platform.  I would look for one that allowed, for example, the ability to post a photo or video--or link to a photo or video --within a message. ("Here's a photo of the bow thruster breaker, Kent, located in the forward port cabin locker..." "Here's a photo of my corroded anchor chain. Do I need a new chain? Or is there a way to clean this up?..." "Here's a link to a YouTube that shows how to dismantle and serviceq the motor for the Furler

Rick & Linda Grimes
S/V "Rascal"
SM2K (#404)
609-932-2307
Sent on the run from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2015, at 6:46 AM, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I note it says  "download the fully featured trial version", which implies that someone would need to pay for the full version.
I personally think that the glory days of free internet are coming to an end, and seriously, why not, if it was me I wouldn't be providing all this stuff for nothing.
So, we need to find a way to archive all the stuff that is on this group to...a dropbox....or ???
I'm happy to put in the hard yards to do it, if others are...but we need a secure place to put it all
What does everyone else think ???
Cheers'
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

Richard03801 <richard03801@...>
 

Kent forward cabin port side upper cabinet 

Fair Winds Smooth Sailing To All
Capt Richard 
RP Yacht Brokerage
Newport RI 
We list sell and service fine yachts including Amel's
Cell 603 767 5330

On Dec 5, 2015, at 17:57, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Where is the breaker for the bow thruster, if there is one?
Thanks,
Kent
SM253
Kristy


Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

jjjk12s@...
 


Is this a case of PREVIOUSLY the risk was so small, and the disandvatages significant, that the AC generator ground - neutral connection was not made, whereas nowadays, with readily available galvanic isolators and a more litiginous society the small risk overcomes the disadvantages and it should be connected. So it would be sensible to modify older designs that may have been correct at the time where circumstances have moved on. Amels have always evolved so modifying an older Amel to mirror a newer Amel's systems seems totally in order and not messing with Cpt Henry's concepts.

 

John

Maramu #91 1981


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

karkauai
 

Where is the breaker for the bow thruster, if there is one?
Thanks,
Kent
SM253
Kristy


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

jjjk12s@...
 

Bill,

 

Forgot to sign properly.

 

Maramu #91 1981 Popeye, - re-engined this year with Yanmar 4JH4TE 75 HP and removed the Perkins M60 (same engine as a Volvo MD22A.)


 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Yahoo changes...

James Studdart
 

I will check into this as well. I'm a programmer by trade and would be happy, if needs be, to write something to transfer the data. I've been wondering if there was a way to "archive" this group for times of need in the middle of the ocean anyway!

I would hope there will be a reasonable amount of time before anything drastic happens to yahoo groups.

Cheers,
James.

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 11:46 AM divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I note it says  "download the fully featured trial version", which implies that someone would need to pay for the full version.
I personally think that the glory days of free internet are coming to an end, and seriously, why not, if it was me I wouldn't be providing all this stuff for nothing.
So, we need to find a way to archive all the stuff that is on this group to...a dropbox....or ???
I'm happy to put in the hard yards to do it, if others are...but we need a secure place to put it all
What does everyone else think ???
Cheers'
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

John,

Which model and hull# Amel do you own?

Bill
BeBe #387

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 8:10 PM, jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Electronic fuel pump management on boats can bring in an area of lesser reliability. On the larger Yanmars at least, and I presume still on the latest smaller ones,  they have mechanical fuel pumps whereas competitors have electronic. The reason for this I have been told is that to comply with IMO tier 2 emissions most manufacturers need to electronically control the fuel pump whereas Yanmar has a patented combustion chamber design that allows the emissions to comply, so doesn't need the elctronic management. 

 

John



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

jjjk12s@...
 

Electronic fuel pump management on boats can bring in an area of lesser reliability. On the larger Yanmars at least, and I presume still on the latest smaller ones,  they have mechanical fuel pumps whereas competitors have electronic. The reason for this I have been told is that to comply with IMO tier 2 emissions most manufacturers need to electronically control the fuel pump whereas Yanmar has a patented combustion chamber design that allows the emissions to comply, so doesn't need the elctronic management. 

 

John


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

joseph mc donnell
 

I think that the big problem with volvo marine engines, is the move to the common rail design. Remember that their marine engines are a small part of their buisness, so their supply of base engines are now probably all common rail. Even in road vehicles there has been major issues with this type of engine (I know of one Toyota with a common rail engine, which had 2 engines changed under warranty and I've had to change one fuel pump in my BMW).  So I'm wondering if the common rail engines are really suited to a cruising boat with the added problems of the marine enviroment. If not, is there a  more traditional aspirated or turbo 110Hp engine alternative.
Joe 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

Patrick McAneny
 

Kent,  It may be the electronics , not the basic engine that is the problem. With all the Volvos out there, it seems odd that parts aren't available , I have heard they are expensive, fortunately I only remember buying an oil pressure sender and a timing belt. I guess I have been lucky ! It was great seeing you again when you stopped by in Oct. , maybe next time it won't rain for three days.
Pat
SM Shenanigans
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2015 10:05 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Hi Pat.  I don't know if older Volvos have more problems than Yanmars.  I do know how difficult it is to find mechanics who like working on Volvos, and how parts are often not stocked in the Caribbean, and seem outrageously expensive.
The newer Volvos have a lot of electronics designed to make them more efficient and "green", and troubleshooting them is apparently very difficult.  If Yanmar is doing the same thing with their new engines, I'd guess that they will have similar problems.

My experience has jaded my thoughts about Volvos, but it also says something that the Volvo guru in Puerto Rico recommended that I repower with a Yanmar if I was going to cruise in isolated corners of the globe.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy 


On Dec 5, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I am not an authority on engine design , but I can attest to the fact that I have had two Volvos in my Amel , and my previous boat for a total of about 22 years and thousands of engine hours and have never had any problems. I can not comment on costs of parts and service, for I have had little need for either. I have been told that the Volvo was a Perkins, and that they have proved to be very dependable engines in cars and trucks in Europe. I figure any engine can have problems . Have the Volvos really been that trouble prone and the Yanmars trouble free ? What specifically is the flaw in the Volvo design I need to be concerned with ?
Pat
SM #123
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2015 4:56 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
James,
We are very sorry for your engine troubles. Do not rush with replacement of Volvo to Yanmar. There are happy Volvo engine owners. New Yanmar now using similar technology an on your Volvo. 
On Dec 4, 2015 8:56 AM, "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive.

I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........!

I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options.

I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future.

Thanks again,
Jamie
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico.  The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost.  I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft.  That was another $20K.

Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there!

In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar.  I will NEVER own another Volvo!

Kent 
SM243
Kristy 


On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment.
Regards
Danny


From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that!

There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance.

I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal.

I will be getting proposals, so we shall see.

Thanks,
Jamie
s/v Phantom



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
If  a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor.
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl


From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Jamie,
 
Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed?
 
Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring?
 
Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running.
 
John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)









Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

J Wagam <jwagam@...>
 

They make an engine they call the 105. It is naturally aspirated and puts out 100hp at 2800 RPMs with an even power band. Here it is:

http://www.betamarinenc.com/index.php/engines/?next=26

They use a Kubota engine so parts are easy to source. My dock neighbor has one in a cramped Hallberg Rassy and loves it. Customer service is also excellent in his opinion since he can call and get the builder on the phone.

Good Luck

Jay



On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 1:55 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Does Beta have a 110 HP+ range engine?
Jamie



On Friday, December 4, 2015 11:06 AM, "J Wagamon jwagam@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
Have you looked at Beta? If not, you should speak to Stanley at the US facility. He is very knowledgable. I know they also have a rebuilt engine coming available in December.

Good Luck
Jay
Mango


On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I got $1200 out of my old Volvo, the guy who put in the new engine sold it for parts and took a 10% commission.
Kent


On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:26 AM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive.

I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........!

I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options.

I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future.

Thanks again,
Jamie
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico.  The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost.  I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft.  That was another $20K.

Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there!

In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar.  I will NEVER own another Volvo!

Kent 
SM243
Kristy 


On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment.
Regards
Danny


From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that!

There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance.

I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal.

I will be getting proposals, so we shall see.

Thanks,
Jamie
s/v Phantom



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
If  a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor.
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl


From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Jamie,
 
Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed?
 
Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring?
 
Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running.
 
John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)












Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

Kent, I concur that we have probably beat this topic into the "ground," if you will, but I do want to at least respond to your questions if I can. Maybe I can help clarify, or at least emphasize why I think an unbonded neutral at the generator is a no-no under any circumstances. I will shut up after that and move on to other important issues as I ready my Amel for my journeys next year.

The neutral-to-ground (earth) connection creates a low-impedance path, which is necessary to clear a phase-to-ground fault for separately-derived system (in this case the Amel generator). This low-impedance path is created when the metal parts of the system (green/yellow equipment grounding conductor) is bonded to the system grounded conductor (blue neutral). This neutral-to-ground bond must be made at either:
(1)   the source of a separately-derived system (generator, transformer, or shore power source at the marina) or
(2)   the separately-derived system disconnecting means

DANGER: Failure to provide a low-impedance ground-fault path (that is, not connecting neutral to ground) for the generator can create a condition where a phase-to-ground fault cannot be removed. The result is that all metal parts of the electrical system, as well as the building structure will remain energized with dangerous line voltage if a phase-to-ground fault occurs.

You would not have to be standing in water for that to happen. Insulation could break down, wires could be cut, etc., and that could energize the generator frame. Touching it with your hand could be enough to electrocute.

By the way, the terms ground and earth are the same. The US tends to refer to it as ground, while those in Europe call it earth. I think "earth" is the term used in the Amel reference material I have.

Talk to you all later on other issues.

Thanks for the support.
Jamie
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Saturday, December 5, 2015 9:12 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
AC

I understand, and agree that the risk of AC shock is very low, Alan.  I guess I could imagine a scenario where the boat was holed and needed continuous pumping of the bilge.  The generator might be needed especially if short-handed, you'd be wet, the boat would be wet, etc.

On the other hand, all European and ABYC standards call for grounding of the 220 system.  With a galvanic isolator the risk of damage from nearby boats or faulty shore power connections can be mitigated.

Oliver's post also says "It is not clear why AMEL decided not to connect the neutral and the ground on these vessels.
They are now doing it on the AMEL 55 and 64.
The rule ISO 13297 concerning 230V AC installations in leisure vessels states that the neutral from an inside generator (diesel generator or 24V/230V inverter) should be connected to the vessel's ground equipotential circuit. I guess the recommendations from ABYC are the same about that."  And his later post, "There is only one ground aboard (also called equipotential circuit): all the yellow/green wires, where the zincs are connected, where every piece of metal in touch with seawater should be connected and where the 220V earth is connected when you're plugged to shore power." Implying that 220 Earth from shore power is connected to the bonding system already.  I thought that there were supposed to be NO connections between 220 and the bonding system.  Since all 220vAC appliances have their grounds (y/g wires) connected together in the 220 breaker panel, and at the ground lug in the ATS box, if there is a connection to the bonding system at the generator or any where else, then all 220 grounds are connected.  If the shore power is grounded to the bonding system, why would it be a problem to connect it again at the generator?

So please help me understand the down side of keeping this connection intact (ie having a connection between 220 ground and the corrosion bonding system via the generator output ground and engine connection to the bonding system).


DC
Now, regarding his last post about the 24vDC earth connections to the bonding system.  I guess I was getting "ground " and "earth" confused. When we say that Amel doesn't ground it's DC circuits to the bonding system, I think we are saying that the negative (-) wires are run directly back to the battery (-), rather than making that connection through the bonding system ("earth")...like we do when we isolate our engines by disconnecting 12vDC (-) from the engine block.  But the appliance cases are connected to earth (like our engine is connected to the bonding system), so that in the event of a (+) or (-)  fault in a pump, the current goes to the bonding system.  

What about any DC appliances like winches, windlass, bow thruster, fresh water pump, etc that are not under water, but are also susceptible to faults.  Are their cases also connected to the bonding system?  If not, where?

I was thinking that our DC systems were completely isolated from the corrosion bonding system, but I guess that at least the sea water pumps are connected anyway by the sea water.  I thought that if there was a short in a pump motor, it would follow a path back to the battery, rather than to the "earth" bonding system, protecting the bonded underwater metals from electrolysis.  Obviously I had that wrong.  Please explain again why Amel isolates the battery negative from earth.

Again, I apologize for whipping a horse that many of you know is already dead.  Every time I think I've got it, something comes up that throws me back into the dark ages.

I'm not going to give up Olivier.  I'm just hoping that one day I will understand it enough to stay out of trouble.  Thank you again for being so involved in this forum and taking your valuable time to help us understand our boats.  I wish I were a better student.

Kent
SM243
Kristy 





On Dec 5, 2015, at 4:16 AM, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I think you need to read Olivier;'s reply a bit more carefully :

To be electrocuted while the generator is running, and on a vessel where the generator neutral is not connected with the ground, you would need to be wet, with wet feet touching a conductive part of the vessel that would also be in touch with the neutral of the generator AND there should be a Live wire touching the metal body of a 230V appliance. That can however happen when the vessel is flooded with seawater and you run the generator.
The risk of being electrocuted on an AMEL vessel is probably small, because the bottom of the boat is (should be) rather dry.


I would tend to agree with that...

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

karkauai
 

Hi Pat.  I don't know if older Volvos have more problems than Yanmars.  I do know how difficult it is to find mechanics who like working on Volvos, and how parts are often not stocked in the Caribbean, and seem outrageously expensive.
The newer Volvos have a lot of electronics designed to make them more efficient and "green", and troubleshooting them is apparently very difficult.  If Yanmar is doing the same thing with their new engines, I'd guess that they will have similar problems.

My experience has jaded my thoughts about Volvos, but it also says something that the Volvo guru in Puerto Rico recommended that I repower with a Yanmar if I was going to cruise in isolated corners of the globe.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy 


On Dec 5, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I am not an authority on engine design , but I can attest to the fact that I have had two Volvos in my Amel , and my previous boat for a total of about 22 years and thousands of engine hours and have never had any problems. I can not comment on costs of parts and service, for I have had little need for either. I have been told that the Volvo was a Perkins, and that they have proved to be very dependable engines in cars and trucks in Europe. I figure any engine can have problems . Have the Volvos really been that trouble prone and the Yanmars trouble free ? What specifically is the flaw in the Volvo design I need to be concerned with ?
Pat
SM #123
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2015 4:56 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
James,
We are very sorry for your engine troubles. Do not rush with replacement of Volvo to Yanmar. There are happy Volvo engine owners. New Yanmar now using similar technology an on your Volvo. 
On Dec 4, 2015 8:56 AM, "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive.

I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........!

I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options.

I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future.

Thanks again,
Jamie
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico.  The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost.  I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft.  That was another $20K.

Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there!

In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar.  I will NEVER own another Volvo!

Kent 
SM243
Kristy 


On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment.
Regards
Danny


From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that!

There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance.

I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal.

I will be getting proposals, so we shall see.

Thanks,
Jamie
s/v Phantom



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
If  a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor.
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl


From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Jamie,
 
Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed?
 
Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring?
 
Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running.
 
John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)









Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

Patrick McAneny
 

I am not an authority on engine design , but I can attest to the fact that I have had two Volvos in my Amel , and my previous boat for a total of about 22 years and thousands of engine hours and have never had any problems. I can not comment on costs of parts and service, for I have had little need for either. I have been told that the Volvo was a Perkins, and that they have proved to be very dependable engines in cars and trucks in Europe. I figure any engine can have problems . Have the Volvos really been that trouble prone and the Yanmars trouble free ? What specifically is the flaw in the Volvo design I need to be concerned with ?
Pat
SM #123
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2015 4:56 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
James,
We are very sorry for your engine troubles. Do not rush with replacement of Volvo to Yanmar. There are happy Volvo engine owners. New Yanmar now using similar technology an on your Volvo. 
On Dec 4, 2015 8:56 AM, "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive.

I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........!

I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options.

I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future.

Thanks again,
Jamie
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico.  The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost.  I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft.  That was another $20K.

Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there!

In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar.  I will NEVER own another Volvo!

Kent 
SM243
Kristy 


On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment.
Regards
Danny


From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that!

There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance.

I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal.

I will be getting proposals, so we shall see.

Thanks,
Jamie
s/v Phantom



On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
If  a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor.
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl


From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Jamie,
 
Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed?
 
Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring?
 
Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running.
 
John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)









Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis

karkauai
 

AC

I understand, and agree that the risk of AC shock is very low, Alan.  I guess I could imagine a scenario where the boat was holed and needed continuous pumping of the bilge.  The generator might be needed especially if short-handed, you'd be wet, the boat would be wet, etc.

On the other hand, all European and ABYC standards call for grounding of the 220 system.  With a galvanic isolator the risk of damage from nearby boats or faulty shore power connections can be mitigated.

Oliver's post also says "It is not clear why AMEL decided not to connect the neutral and the ground on these vessels.
They are now doing it on the AMEL 55 and 64.
The rule ISO 13297 concerning 230V AC installations in leisure vessels states that the neutral from an inside generator (diesel generator or 24V/230V inverter) should be connected to the vessel's ground equipotential circuit. I guess the recommendations from ABYC are the same about that."  And his later post, "There is only one ground aboard (also called equipotential circuit): all the yellow/green wires, where the zincs are connected, where every piece of metal in touch with seawater should be connected and where the 220V earth is connected when you're plugged to shore power." Implying that 220 Earth from shore power is connected to the bonding system already.  I thought that there were supposed to be NO connections between 220 and the bonding system.  Since all 220vAC appliances have their grounds (y/g wires) connected together in the 220 breaker panel, and at the ground lug in the ATS box, if there is a connection to the bonding system at the generator or any where else, then all 220 grounds are connected.  If the shore power is grounded to the bonding system, why would it be a problem to connect it again at the generator?

So please help me understand the down side of keeping this connection intact (ie having a connection between 220 ground and the corrosion bonding system via the generator output ground and engine connection to the bonding system).


DC
Now, regarding his last post about the 24vDC earth connections to the bonding system.  I guess I was getting "ground " and "earth" confused. When we say that Amel doesn't ground it's DC circuits to the bonding system, I think we are saying that the negative (-) wires are run directly back to the battery (-), rather than making that connection through the bonding system ("earth")...like we do when we isolate our engines by disconnecting 12vDC (-) from the engine block.  But the appliance cases are connected to earth (like our engine is connected to the bonding system), so that in the event of a (+) or (-)  fault in a pump, the current goes to the bonding system.  

What about any DC appliances like winches, windlass, bow thruster, fresh water pump, etc that are not under water, but are also susceptible to faults.  Are their cases also connected to the bonding system?  If not, where?

I was thinking that our DC systems were completely isolated from the corrosion bonding system, but I guess that at least the sea water pumps are connected anyway by the sea water.  I thought that if there was a short in a pump motor, it would follow a path back to the battery, rather than to the "earth" bonding system, protecting the bonded underwater metals from electrolysis.  Obviously I had that wrong.  Please explain again why Amel isolates the battery negative from earth.

Again, I apologize for whipping a horse that many of you know is already dead.  Every time I think I've got it, something comes up that throws me back into the dark ages.

I'm not going to give up Olivier.  I'm just hoping that one day I will understand it enough to stay out of trouble.  Thank you again for being so involved in this forum and taking your valuable time to help us understand our boats.  I wish I were a better student.

Kent
SM243
Kristy 





On Dec 5, 2015, at 4:16 AM, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I think you need to read Olivier;'s reply a bit more carefully :

To be electrocuted while the generator is running, and on a vessel where the generator neutral is not connected with the ground, you would need to be wet, with wet feet touching a conductive part of the vessel that would also be in touch with the neutral of the generator AND there should be a Live wire touching the metal body of a 230V appliance. That can however happen when the vessel is flooded with seawater and you run the generator.
The risk of being electrocuted on an AMEL vessel is probably small, because the bottom of the boat is (should be) rather dry.


I would tend to agree with that...

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Motor shaft seal

eric freedman
 

Hi Bill I have searched both sites before I asked the question they all come up with 1 3/8 inch.

Could you direct me to a 3/8” one . I will try a pool supply today.

Thanks

Again

Eric

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2015 2:42 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Motor shaft seal

 

 

Eric,

 

Google "3/8" mechanical seal." I see a lot of them. Also at ebay.com search 3/8" mechanical seal...there are lots of them.

Go to a swimming pool shop...one that will repair a swimming pool pump...most of them have 3/8" mechanical seals. 

 

Bill

 

BeBe 387

 

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:38 AM, sailormon kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I want to replace the shaft seal on the low pressure pump on my watermaker. Thanks to Bill, I found out it is a 3/8 inch – 10 mm seal.

I cannot find one here in the USA. The smallest I can find is ½ inch.

I have tried McMaster, MSC, and Grainger.

It is a $8.00 item but I can’t locate it.

Thanks

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Fuel Tank Filter, Variprop

eric freedman
 

Hi,

I assumed you had an autoprop.

Yes you have to drain the tank.

The filter in the tank is similar to the screens in the shower drains.

That is all I can think of. Can you get the engine up to 3000 rpm with the transmission in neutral?

You could also have clogged injectors.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2015 1:17 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Fuel Tank Filter, Variprop

 

 

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the info.  I was unaware of such a filter at the fuel valve.  So to check and service it I am assuming you have to empty the fuel tank.  Is the filter a coarse screen?  Anyone else have this clog?

 

Regarding props.  I am sure the Autoprop and Maxprop are excellent but let me throw in another possibility. Our Super Maramu (100 HP Yanmar) has a German Variprop "Blue Water" 4-Blade prop and IMHO it is excellent. Lots of power, lots of speed and zero vibration.  It seems to be a very good match for the SM.  Works well at low to high rpms and in reverse, setting the anchor I have to be careful to make sure the chain does't jump the windlass. In forward it can really punch through chop or hit speed and seems to like to motorsail as well.   It is easy to remove from the shaft and the nut is held in place by torque and then 3 set screws. The factory is extremely responsive and helpful.  When I talked to them by phone they knew my boat and the German owner who had bought the prop.  They will have exactly the specs for a Super Maramu.

 

Again, I cannot compare it to the other props (my Santorin had the fixed 3 blade) but it might be worth a look if you are in the market for a replacement prop.

 

Variprop 4-blade testimonials - VARIPROPELLER USA: The best fea...

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Bob, SV KAIMI 429, Fethiye, Turkey