main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io

Re: Self Insurance

Patrick McAneny

#52310

Teun,

To address your input in order.

1. I agree we don't want to get involved in managing this self insurance. That is why I said from the start, that there would need to be a paid administrator ,and I suggested an annual fee of perhaps .20% of boat value to cover expenses.Kent suggested a voluntary board to provide guidance .

2. 1.5 million in a reserve fund would seem adequate to cover three boats lost in a single year,which is very unlikely. The fund could be replenished by an assessment to all members to bring the fund back up to the prior balance. Keep in mind this is only meant to share the risk of a total lose ,not if you run into a piling and scratch your hull. So if a boat was a total lose and the payout was $250,000. and assuming we had 200 members ,each member would pay into the fund $1,250, their share of the lose.

3. I don't even know what a synthetic structure is,so don't have much to say about that, I read that and just throw up my hands ,you win ! I do agree with you, that many may not realize the changes in the insurance industry until its time to renew their policy. I also agree that we need to determine the level of interest, and many with a policy in force at this time may not be,understandable. Brent has made up a survey ,very well done and it will be presented to the group to determine interest. It may be ahead of its time ,but I think its time will come. if we lack interest at this time ,we will put it on the back burner for now and revisit when things in the industry get worse. We don't want to spin wheels and write emails for nothing, at least I don't,my two fingers get sore !

Be Safe,

Pat

SM Shenanigans

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <teun@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Below from Mark’s friend reflects exactly what I mentioned last week. It is no longer a matter of cost but “can I get it”.

On Pat and Ken’s Emails:

I don’t think we want to get involved in managing this “self-insurance”.

USD1.5 Million is no way enough but can be a reasonable buffer to start discussing a “synthetic” or “derivative” structure with a professional carrier such as LLOYD’s.

Let’s first see if we really can come up with 200 interested owners; without any solid group of owners we will be nowhere in a discussion with a professional organization.

So far I have only seen “luke-warm” interest. I believe a lot of owners don’t realize what is really going on until personally confronted with refusal to renew as was my experience.

Q1 this year I was reading the thread on our AYOG Forum about insurance problems but didn’t think it would concern me as I had been with LLOYD’s for 2 years to be renewed every April.

January/February 2020 a fellow AMEL 54 owner asked me for the contact info of my South Pacific agent and I knew he was offered in February/March 2020 a similar cover with a similar premium as I had for the last 2 years. Knowing he got LLOYDS to insure him I was pretty certain my renewal would just be a formality UNTILL 1^st week of April 2020 I was notified by my agent that LLOYDS no longer was in the sailboat insurance business.

That gave me 2 weeks to find an alternative ☹.

So let’s first determine if we can come up with 200 really seriously interested AMEL owners; failing that we are just wasting time 😊.

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT A54 #128

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 13:03:09

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Erdos via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 11:08
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:

I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.

Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.

He thinks things will get worse before they get better.

With best regards,

Mark

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

Re: Self Insurance

Teun BAAS

#52309

Dealt with Elliott GOLDEN; nice guy. Came with similar proposal also from ERGO GERMANY but with a lower agreed value (USD530K).

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT A54 #128

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 13:36:02

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

Show quoted text

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Matt Salatino via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 13:14
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Gary Golden, Manifest Marine.

I’m a longtime customer and friend, who I met through the Moody Owners’ Association (previous boat)

He’s a good guy, and an advocate for his clients.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On May 19, 2020, at 2:44 PM, Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL via groups.io <sangaris@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Ken Powers mentions the Jackline Policy he has. That product was started by Al Golden and his son Gary at their (at the time) brokerage company called IMIS, now bought out by Gowrie. Al's retired and his son Gary, as some posts in this thread note, is now on his own and expanding his offerings of cruiser's coverage. The Golden's have always been staunch supporters of the Seven Seas Cruising Association - SSCA and marketed to that group as an excellent base of customers who were cruising savvy which gave the underwriters (Markel) a desirable low-risk group to insure - quite similar to what Amel owners could do.

Interestingly, back in the 90's another broker offered a substantial discount to sailors who were members of SSCA. Lo and behold, the membership rolls of the organization zoomed from about 2000 boats to 5000 by the late 90's as membership was never contingent on sailing experience (anyone could join SSCA as an associate and get the discount, then could become a voting "commodore" after demonstrating live-aboard and passagemaking experience). That diluted the insurance underwriting appeal and the product was dropped after a few years (there was also some other drama going on with the broker).

I'd recommend a chat with Gary which could be very instructive at least, or even present him with an opportunity he could pursue as a professional in the business to offer an AGIC policy.
Food for thought.

Craig

Re: Zink Anode for SPURS Line Cutter

Teun BAAS

#52308

Eric,

Thanks – will look into this.

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT A54 #128

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 13:29:53

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

Show quoted text

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of eric freedman via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 16:06
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Zink Anode for SPURS Line Cutter

Teun,

You can buy a regular pencil zinc and shorten it . It is much cheaper than the Onan factory zinc.

Save the brass cap fitting that the zinc fits into . You can then reuse the cap and buy zincs without the brass cap.

Fair Winds

Eric

Amel Super Maramu #376

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 6:51 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Zink Anode for SPURS Line Cutter

Teun,

To the back of the Onan heat exchanger

Image removed by sender.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...

Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550

Website: www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com

View My Training Calendar

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 11:19 AM Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:

Hi Alexander,

I am aware of all the anodes you mention but, maybe a dumb question, where is the anode on the ONAN Generator?

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT A54 #128

In storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 18, 2020 09:18:17

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Alexander Hofmann via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 23:57
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Zink Anode for SPURS Line Cutter

Bonjour Olivier, hello Rudi and Scott,

I want to add my observations of some years: The zinc anode of the Spurs line cutter is completely away after a year, if you do not have the zinc anode on the nose of (in my case folding) propeller. This means, the protection of the big 2 anodes on the rudder blade is most seemingly not enough to protect the line cutter (and the propeller I believe) from corrosion.
After installing the zinc anode on the propeller (instead of the 'red nose plastic' - as Olivier says), which by the way is quite easy also in diving, I detect no corrosion anymore at the zinc anode of the Spurs line cutter.
I am happy now with a full set of zinc anodes from bow to aft, on (1) the bow thruster, (2) the Onan Generator, (3) the spurs line cutter, (4) the nose of the Propeller and (5) the 2 big ones at the rudder blade.

This should last and avoid any corrosion easily a year!

Best regards
Alexander Hofmann, SY Oceanica I, Amel 54#156

Re: Self Insurance

Teun BAAS

#52307

Below in blue next to Ken’s my current coverage; in red the last 2 years LLOYDS

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT A54 #128

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 13:07:00

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

Show quoted text

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ken Powers SV Aquarius via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 00:35
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Though I think it would be a great idea to start the "Amel Group Insurance Company" AGIC, it's a lot more than just opening a bank account and filling it with our $6000 each month. Insurance companies are Bankers first, and Offer insurance second. Once you get the first $1.2M in the bank it has to be invested, and everyone will have different ideas of where to invest it. Well hedged is probably best, but these days I have been a very unsuccessful investor!

On the questionnaire - Ask about Auto, Motorcycle, Airplane Insurance - Any tickets past 10 years, and any claims? People are the same on the water as they are on land or in the air. Careful drivers on land and in the air, will be careful captains on the water.

I also think that the owners that will be insured by AGIC should be required to have three owners confirm that the owner is worthy of getting insurance through AGIC. The first 200 owners insured also need to be well vetted be part of the group. All you need is a few bad actors to bankrupt an insurance company. Everyone has different ideas of what the appropriate level of experience should be required to sail an Amel off shore. What would be the level of instruction/experience required for new owners, and who would be capable of imparting that knowledge and signing off for a new owner to be insured. Bill's class would be a good one, but should Bill alone be able to sign off for a new member? No one person should.

There's a lot of benefits we could gain by starting this venture. For one, it would make the AMEL brand more valuable if the insurance was transferrable to a new owner given a mandatory level of experience, no claims (any insurance), and an AMEL offshore sailing course. Just like a check ride by the FAA.

To do this right we need a village, and I think the AMEL Owners are the right village. If we start now, we could draft a document and get this started by the end of the year.

First get interest level. 200 boats would probably be a good start.
Draft a Document how the company would operate.
1. Investments
2. Personal requirements to be insured
3. What/Where will the insurance cover
4. How/who will manage the claims
5. Define a bad risk owner, and how will a bad risk owner be deleted from the insurance group.
6. Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance. Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
7. Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas. Just moving with traffic. Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.

So the first think would be to find out who is interested in the insurance, and each should answer the following questions. If there is interest we need to get everyone into a spreadsheet and when we get to 200 people we can move forward to the next step.
HERE IS MINE
1. Current Insurance Company: JACKLINE POLICY[TDB]    ERGO GERMANY via POEMA in SOUTH PACIFIC Thailand office but premium paid to NOUMEA NEW CALEDONIA. LLOYDS syndicate
2. Cost yearly: $5700[TDB]   USD7,108.75 BUT this includes USD1,233.75 Dutch Insurance Tax because my boat is registered in THE NETHERLANDS PLUS USD350 for increased 3^rd party liability from USD3Million to USD6 Million (AUSTRALIAN $10,000,000) Between USD4,900 and USD5,200
3. Coverage amount: $280K[TDB] USD607,000 of which USD575,000 for the hull, machinery & equipment USD595K - also USD575K for the hull
4. Coverage location: Worldwide except weather zones[TDB] AUSTRALIA – in case I go to NEW ZEALAND we will get amendment; cyclone clause – 20% deductible . NEW CALEDONIA and VANUATU between North - 5 S, South - 40 S; East – 180 East; West – 150 East. South East ASIA: North – 25N; South - 15 S; East – 130E; West – 75 E. Policy mentions specifically that cyclone etc. are covered with 5% deductible.
5. 3rd party Liability: $1M[TDB] USD3M plus see above USD3Million
6. Solo Sailor: ?[TDB] Yes NO
7. Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance. Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.[TDB] Never any Marine claim
8. Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas. Just moving with traffic. Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.[TDB] I think there was no such question or maybe for the last 3 or 5 years: NO tickets in the last 3 or 5 years.
9. ?? Any other questions we need to ask to get the first 220 or more first responders? Some people will not meet the standards of the majority, so we will need to get more than the number required for critical mass. Even I may not meet the standards of some.

Done rambling....

Ken Powers
Aquarius SM2K #262
Currently in Phuket Thailand

Re: Self Insurance

Matt Salatino

#52306

Gary Golden, Manifest Marine.

I’m a longtime customer and friend, who I met through the Moody Owners’ Association (previous boat)

He’s a good guy, and an advocate for his clients.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

Show quoted text

On May 19, 2020, at 2:44 PM, Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL via groups.io <sangaris@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]
Ken Powers mentions the Jackline Policy he has. That product was started by Al Golden and his son Gary at their (at the time) brokerage company called IMIS, now bought out by Gowrie. Al's retired and his son Gary, as some posts in this thread note, is now on his own and expanding his offerings of cruiser's coverage. The Golden's have always been staunch supporters of the Seven Seas Cruising Association - SSCA and marketed to that group as an excellent base of customers who were cruising savvy which gave the underwriters (Markel) a desirable low-risk group to insure - quite similar to what Amel owners could do.

Interestingly, back in the 90's another broker offered a substantial discount to sailors who were members of SSCA. Lo and behold, the membership rolls of the organization zoomed from about 2000 boats to 5000 by the late 90's as membership was never contingent on sailing experience (anyone could join SSCA as an associate and get the discount, then could become a voting "commodore" after demonstrating live-aboard and passagemaking experience). That diluted the insurance underwriting appeal and the product was dropped after a few years (there was also some other drama going on with the broker).

I'd recommend a chat with Gary which could be very instructive at least, or even present him with an opportunity he could pursue as a professional in the business to offer an AGIC policy.
Food for thought.

Craig

Re: Self Insurance

Teun BAAS

#52305

Below from Mark’s friend reflects exactly what I mentioned last week. It is no longer a matter of cost but “can I get it”.

On Pat and Ken’s Emails:

I don’t think we want to get involved in managing this “self-insurance”.

USD1.5 Million is no way enough but can be a reasonable buffer to start discussing a “synthetic” or “derivative” structure with a professional carrier such as LLOYD’s.

Let’s first see if we really can come up with 200 interested owners; without any solid group of owners we will be nowhere in a discussion with a professional organization.

So far I have only seen “luke-warm” interest. I believe a lot of owners don’t realize what is really going on until personally confronted with refusal to renew as was my experience.

Q1 this year I was reading the thread on our AYOG Forum about insurance problems but didn’t think it would concern me as I had been with LLOYD’s for 2 years to be renewed every April.

January/February 2020 a fellow AMEL 54 owner asked me for the contact info of my South Pacific agent and I knew he was offered in February/March 2020 a similar cover with a similar premium as I had for the last 2 years. Knowing he got LLOYDS to insure him I was pretty certain my renewal would just be a formality UNTILL 1^st week of April 2020 I was notified by my agent that LLOYDS no longer was in the sailboat insurance business.

That gave me 2 weeks to find an alternative ☹.

So let’s first determine if we can come up with 200 really seriously interested AMEL owners; failing that we are just wasting time 😊.

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT A54 #128

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 13:03:09

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

Show quoted text

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Erdos via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 11:08
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:

I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.

Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.

He thinks things will get worse before they get better.

With best regards,

Mark

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

Re: Self Insurance

Patrick McAneny

#52304

Mark, I think your friends assessment is right on. I am fielding quotes ,two just today. They are full of restrictions , exclusions and wording that left me wondering if ever needed, would I have coverage at all. Not to mention the premiums more than twice what I was paying with Pantaenius, with deductibles 5 times as much. This is what prompted me to think ,it may be time to think about self insuring .

Stay Safe,

Pat

SM #123

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 2:08 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:

I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.

Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.

He thinks things will get worse before they get better.

With best regards,

Mark

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

Re: Main sail outhaul Motorspor

Kaplan,Andre

#52303

Thanks John

Interesting suggestion... I’m off the boat this week but I’ll follow up with some strong taps to the motor when I return next week.. but I think a rebuild of the motor will likely be needed if the circuitry is OK.

Andre

Show quoted text

On May 19, 2020, at 2:57 PM, John Clark <john.biohead@...> wrote:

*** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. ***

Also an SM owner, older SM though...assuming that all the breakers are turned on (control power too) I found when the brushes in the motor are near the end of life the motor will sometimes work sometimes not. A tap on the side would make it go for a while. I replaced the brushes and have not had an issue in years.
Annie SM 37

WI USVI

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 3:23 PM Kaplan,Andre <kaplan@...> wrote:

Mark
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I did check the breaker.. it was not tripped, but it may be suspect since it had been replaced...
I’m not on the boat today, but I will take photos next week. Unfortunately, I can hear a click when I throw the switch... by your assessment, it may be the motor... if so, does anyone know where and how to get a replacement motor? Must it come from Amel or is there a standard motor that can be used as replacement.

BTW, I always try to limit strain on motor by heading into the wind during furling or unfurling mainsail.

Thanks for any suggestions on motor replacement.

Boat lies in Westbrook, CT

Andre
Renaissance 2000
Mango 71, 1988
> On May 17, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> wrote:
>
> *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. ***
>
> Andre,
>
> I am unsure if the solenoid is the same on the Mango as the SM. If it is, it
> is a product used in forklift trucks. This should help you find one (not
> sure where you are located). Perhaps you can post a picture.
>
> That said, it is not usually the solenoid that fails. They are extremely
> heavy duty. More often the motor burns out due to the operator putting too
> much strain on it. If you hear a click as you work the outhaul switch on the
> control panel, it is not the solenoid.
>
> Stating the obvious, have you checked the breaker?
>
>
> With best regards,
>
> Mark
>
> Skipper
> Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
> Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.creampuff.us__;!!N0rdg9Wr!_jfC8TlOKSYZuv_1Syg0ZKXhUrJXC8xanwngc1sf7FudMOEIRLMZFtx284jF3o8$
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io]
> On Behalf Of Kaplan,Andre
> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 4:43 AM
> To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
> Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Main sail outhaul motor
>
> I have a 1988 Mango no.71. On recommissioning this spring, the electric
> outhaul for the mainsail is not working. A quick look by a yard worker
> suggested the solenoid might be bad. Can someone give me advice on how to
> approach this problem? If the solenoid is bad, how can I replace it? Is
> there a standard solenoid that can replace the original? If so, what is the
> model that I need? Must I get the replacement from Amel? If the outhaul
> motor is bad, how and where can I get a replacement?
> Thanks for any advice.
>
> Andre Kaplan
> Renaissance 2000
> Mango 71 88
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Zink Anode for SPURS Line Cutter

Ulrich Michael Dangelmeyer

#52302

Hi Ameliens,

I´m  interested to have a closer view on my spurs cutter anode as soon as possible, may be in August, hopefully.
Is anybody from you experts are able to call me the right size for our 54´s spurs cutter zinc.
There are a lot in variety at boatzincs.com.
Currently I´m not able to make a measure. Boat in Greece, I´m Germany. Not so fine.

THX a lot in advance and: still take care

Best wishes to all are locked down remote. from home or boat.

Ulrich Michael.
„Soleil Bleu“ /A54 #088.
<>

Re: Main sail outhaul Motorspor

John Clark

#52301

Also an SM owner, older SM though...assuming that all the breakers are turned on (control power too) I found when the brushes in the motor are near the end of life the motor will sometimes work sometimes not. A tap on the side would make it go for a while. I replaced the brushes and have not had an issue in years.

Annie SM 37

WI USVI

Show quoted text

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 3:23 PM Kaplan,Andre <kaplan@...> wrote:

Mark
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I did check the breaker.. it was not tripped, but it may be suspect since it had been replaced...
I’m not on the boat today, but I will take photos next week. Unfortunately, I can hear a click when I throw the switch... by your assessment, it may be the motor... if so, does anyone know where and how to get a replacement motor? Must it come from Amel or is there a standard motor that can be used as replacement.

BTW, I always try to limit strain on motor by heading into the wind during furling or unfurling mainsail.

Thanks for any suggestions on motor replacement.

Boat lies in Westbrook, CT

Andre
Renaissance 2000
Mango 71, 1988
> On May 17, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> wrote:
>
> *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. ***
>
> Andre,
>
> I am unsure if the solenoid is the same on the Mango as the SM. If it is, it
> is a product used in forklift trucks. This should help you find one (not
> sure where you are located). Perhaps you can post a picture.
>
> That said, it is not usually the solenoid that fails. They are extremely
> heavy duty. More often the motor burns out due to the operator putting too
> much strain on it. If you hear a click as you work the outhaul switch on the
> control panel, it is not the solenoid.
>
> Stating the obvious, have you checked the breaker?
>
>
> With best regards,
>
> Mark
>
> Skipper
> Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
> Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.creampuff.us__;!!N0rdg9Wr!_jfC8TlOKSYZuv_1Syg0ZKXhUrJXC8xanwngc1sf7FudMOEIRLMZFtx284jF3o8$
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io]
> On Behalf Of Kaplan,Andre
> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 4:43 AM
> To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
> Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Main sail outhaul motor
>
> I have a 1988 Mango no.71. On recommissioning this spring, the electric
> outhaul for the mainsail is not working. A quick look by a yard worker
> suggested the solenoid might be bad. Can someone give me advice on how to
> approach this problem? If the solenoid is bad, how can I replace it? Is
> there a standard solenoid that can replace the original? If so, what is the
> model that I need? Must I get the replacement from Amel? If the outhaul
> motor is bad, how and where can I get a replacement?
> Thanks for any advice.
>
> Andre Kaplan
> Renaissance 2000
> Mango 71 88
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: SM Turnbuckle

John Clark

#52300

Thanks guys. I wrote to ACMO a few days ago. They replied today requesting a photo. We'll see what they say.

Regards, John

SV Annie SM37

Water Island USVI

Show quoted text

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:26 AM Kaplan,Andre <kaplan@...> wrote:

On May 17, 2020, at 8:51 AM, karkauai via groups.io <karkauai=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

*** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. ***

Hi John,
Like Gary, the chrome on my original rigging looked like new when I had her re-rigged at 13 years old. The new rigging was from a well-respected company in England (sorry, I don't remember the name) that builds rigging for megayachts. When the chrome started failing on the turnbuckles after 3 years, I had it inspected by Annapolis rigging. They confirmed that it was only cosmetic. They also contacted the supplier who confirmed that they had had a bad batch of chrome that year. Unfortunately, it was out of warranty and they weren't willing to do any kind of refund.

I had a bronze turnbuckle machined locally which was not chromed. It actually looks better than the chromed turnbuckles.

Things are beginning to open up in Maryland now and Iris is starting her charter season next weekend ..with masks and as much "distancing" as possible. If all goes well with her new captains and crew, we hope to e sailing up to Maiy for July and Aug. I hope you will be able to start moving again soon. What are your plans?

Kent & Iris

Kristy

SM243

St Michaels, MD

On May 16, 2020 9:55 AM, John Clark <john.biohead@...> wrote:

While this is a tad late to the discussion, yes the ACMO turnbuckles are chrome plated bronze....and that chrome plating is my concern. I had Caribe Greement in Martinique replace Annie's rigging in 2017. Shortly afterward the chrome on the turnbuckles began to look weathered even though we rinsed them and kept them clean. Here is a picture of the main mast backstay turnbuckle, the one in the cockpit. This one is out of the weather and the chrome is pretty much done. Has anyone else had this issue?

John Clark
SV Annie SM 37
Water Island USVI

Re: Self Insurance

Mark Erdos

#52299

Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:

I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.

Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.

He thinks things will get worse before they get better.

With best regards,

Mark

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

Re: Mizzen furler gearbox, A54 peculiarity?

Sv Garulfo

#52298

Hi Randall

Thanks for that explanation

Do you remember if the internal column (vertical axis) is in 2 parts that are free to move with respect to each other?

In mine, when the furler turns, the top part of the internal column (with the teeth) turns, but the bottom part does not (does not bulge at all). I’m puzzled as to whether that’s expected or not. The movement of the top part is smooth and feels normal.

If I look at the drawing of the SM furler, I can’t see how the bottom part (part #9) would move so freely from the top part (part #6).

Best,

Thomas

GARULFO

A54-122

Tahuata, French Polynesia

Show quoted text

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 04:27, Randall <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:

Thomas,
I have inverted the picture. My furler only opens from the bottom, it just appears too open at the top. I think it was just a different casting, but the unit is the same.
The bar with the 2 drill bits passed through was just a scrap 2 foot length,18 inches to 24 will work.
A good vise, with a good wrap of bendable metal to protect the furler from vise teeth. If you put the crank handle shaft back in, it will keep the furler from turning in the vise.
Turn bottom a turn or two, then remove the crank handle shaft.
When putting the bearings back in after cleaning (do not grease bearings) insert internal gear up just far enough to feed the top set of bearings ,then push up, turn over put bottom bearings in tighten bottom, install Crank handle shaft. I doubt the unit will need to be done again for a long time, But anti seize may be an idea??

Hope that helps.
Randall
A54 #56
Still in Gib...

On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 1:53 AM Sv Garulfo <svgarulfo@...> wrote:
Hi Randall & Mohammad,

In Randall’s picture, i noticed the gearbox housing is consistent with the drawing in Gary Silver’s document.

My gearbox appears slightly different, at least from the outside. It doesn’t have a screwed top lid.

Mohammad,
what is your gearbox like? Mine or Randall’s?
Does it have straight through drain holes?

Randall,
Did you have to apply great force to unscrew the bottom part? How much leverage does your tool have? How long is the handle?

Thanks

Thomas
A54-122
Tahuata, French Polynesia

On Sat, 16 May 2020 at 02:13, Randall <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:
Thomas,

There were 2 sets of Delrin bearings 1st set just under the bottom cap and the other in the top. My furler took 2 hands and great force to turn.
Just like in the Delos video. If you look at the one picture you can see the place where the Delrin bushings in the cranking shaft with the gear, has eroded and that is where all of the stiffness is coming from.
I can only say that the 2 holes in my furler bottom go all the way through.
I intend to make a start to finish video of this. It was incredibly simple and now the furler moves like new.

Cheers,
Randall

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 7:21 PM Sv Garulfo <svgarulfo@...> wrote:
Thanks Randall,

I will attempt to watch the video but I doubt the bandwidth here will allow that...

Further to Mohammad’s question, did you find a bearing inside or delrin balls like Gary described?
As far as I can see through the horizontal shaft opening, there is a vertical element (consistent with the diagram in Gary’s document) that is supposed to be on a set of derlin balls at the bottom of the housing, but mine does not rotate at all.

Clearly the gearing housing is not waterproof and without drains it will inevitably fill with dirt and water up to the attachment bolts. The bushing is then halfway soaked in that and the aluminium/stainless steel interface between the gearshaft and the winch handle socket attachment will corrode. The oxidation on the aluminium shaft will slowlly increase the friction to the bushing. The gears are moving freely otherwise.

So, drill for drain or not?

Thanks
Thomas

GARULFO
A54-122
Tahuata, French Polynesia

On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 10:11, Randall <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:
Thomas,
I removed disassembled and cleaned my mizzen outhaul last fall. You don't need to drop sail. The issue will be in the Delrin bushings that become very stiff. I have attached 2 pictures of my work. The bearings are not to be lubed/greased. I used a cheap homemade tool to unscrew the bottom. 2cm square bar 2 drill holes straight through, put the drill bits in so the solid end goes into the bottom of the furler, with furler in a vice. Worked great.
I finished and put on a video from a fellow Amel owner who did the same job. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB67b2hK-kA&t=657s
They do the job at 8.02 of the video. If you need more info let me know. Use the bar not the saw.
Cheers.

Randall
A54 #56
Gibraltar

On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 6:50 PM Sv Garulfo <svgarulfo@...> wrote:
Hi all,

In the great document by Gary Silver about the overhaul of the SM Mizzen furler gearbox (thanks Arno for sending us a low bandwidth friendly version), it is mentioned that the bottom part of the gearbox housing is drilled with 2 holes that are used to both unscrew that part (with great efforts) and drain the gearbox of liquids.

As our gearbox got stiffer recently, I removed it and it appears that those 2 holes are not through openings.. thus not acting as drains. And the gearbox was full of rainwater up to the attachment bolts. Arno tells me he saw the same.
So the teflon bushing got very dirty and stiff with all sorts of deposits.

Does anybody know why the drains are no longer machined through? Is it an A54 “innovation”?
It doesn’t really make sense and I’m thinking of drilling those holes all the way through to reinstate the drain. Any word of advice against that idea?

Thanks for your input

Best,

Thomas
GARULFO
A54-122
Tahuata, French Polynesia

Re: Self Insurance

Patrick McAneny

#52297

Ken, We have been following you guys since you were in the Caribbean ,living vicariously unfortunately. I will be sailing my couch this winter ,if I can't find suitable coverage.Its all about risk and spreading it out ,so as not to take a big hit,if the worst should ever happen,as unlikely as it is.

Stay Safe,

Pat & Diane,

SM Shenanigans

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 12:28 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Pat,
Your right! I just thought my questions help paint the picture of risk.

I am optimistic that your idea could work, and still interested.

Ken
SM2K #262
Aquarius in Thailand

Re: Whole Boat Permanent Inverter for 220VAC 50Hz

Ken Powers SV Aquarius

#52296

Scott,

I probably miss understood the issue. But, I still stand by my math. I agree with most of what you said.... And, If I had $20K to install an electrical system on Aquarius, it would be similar to yours.

Fair Winds,
Ken

Re: Zink Anode for SPURS Line Cutter

Paul Guenette

#52295

You May already be aware of this, but just in case you are not.

Boat Zincs dot com has the Ohan zinc in stock for $6.15. You can also purchase just the zinc or just the threaded nut separately. The also have the line cutter zincs and the zincs for the rudder.

I believe the one you need might be E-1G

Cross Reference located here https://www.boatzincs.com/engine-sizes.html.

Fair winds

Paul

Aramis
SM 444
San Francisco Bay, California

Re: Self Insurance

Ken Powers SV Aquarius

#52294

Pat,
Your right! I just thought my questions help paint the picture of risk.

I am optimistic that your idea could work, and still interested.

Ken
SM2K #262
Aquarius in Thailand

Re: Mizzen furler gearbox, A54 peculiarity?

Randall Walker

#52293

Thomas,

I have inverted the picture. My furler only opens from the bottom, it just appears too open at the top. I think it was just a different casting, but the unit is the same.

The bar with the 2 drill bits passed through was just a scrap 2 foot length,18 inches to 24 will work.

A good vise, with a good wrap of bendable metal to protect the furler from vise teeth. If you put the crank handle shaft back in, it will keep the furler from turning in the vise.

Turn bottom a turn or two, then remove the crank handle shaft.

When putting the bearings back in after cleaning (do not grease bearings) insert internal gear up just far enough to feed the top set of bearings ,then push up, turn over put bottom bearings in tighten bottom, install Crank handle shaft. I doubt the unit will need to be done again for a long time, But anti seize may be an idea??

Hope that helps.

Randall

A54 #56

Still in Gib...

Show quoted text

On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 1:53 AM Sv Garulfo <svgarulfo@...> wrote:

Hi Randall & Mohammad,

In Randall’s picture, i noticed the gearbox housing is consistent with the drawing in Gary Silver’s document.

My gearbox appears slightly different, at least from the outside. It doesn’t have a screwed top lid.

Mohammad,
what is your gearbox like? Mine or Randall’s?
Does it have straight through drain holes?

Randall,
Did you have to apply great force to unscrew the bottom part? How much leverage does your tool have? How long is the handle?

Thanks

Thomas
A54-122
Tahuata, French Polynesia

On Sat, 16 May 2020 at 02:13, Randall <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:
Thomas,

There were 2 sets of Delrin bearings 1st set just under the bottom cap and the other in the top. My furler took 2 hands and great force to turn.
Just like in the Delos video. If you look at the one picture you can see the place where the Delrin bushings in the cranking shaft with the gear, has eroded and that is where all of the stiffness is coming from.
I can only say that the 2 holes in my furler bottom go all the way through.
I intend to make a start to finish video of this. It was incredibly simple and now the furler moves like new.

Cheers,
Randall

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 7:21 PM Sv Garulfo <svgarulfo@...> wrote:
Thanks Randall,

I will attempt to watch the video but I doubt the bandwidth here will allow that...

Further to Mohammad’s question, did you find a bearing inside or delrin balls like Gary described?
As far as I can see through the horizontal shaft opening, there is a vertical element (consistent with the diagram in Gary’s document) that is supposed to be on a set of derlin balls at the bottom of the housing, but mine does not rotate at all.

Clearly the gearing housing is not waterproof and without drains it will inevitably fill with dirt and water up to the attachment bolts. The bushing is then halfway soaked in that and the aluminium/stainless steel interface between the gearshaft and the winch handle socket attachment will corrode. The oxidation on the aluminium shaft will slowlly increase the friction to the bushing. The gears are moving freely otherwise.

So, drill for drain or not?

Thanks
Thomas

GARULFO
A54-122
Tahuata, French Polynesia

On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 10:11, Randall <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:
Thomas,
I removed disassembled and cleaned my mizzen outhaul last fall. You don't need to drop sail. The issue will be in the Delrin bushings that become very stiff. I have attached 2 pictures of my work. The bearings are not to be lubed/greased. I used a cheap homemade tool to unscrew the bottom. 2cm square bar 2 drill holes straight through, put the drill bits in so the solid end goes into the bottom of the furler, with furler in a vice. Worked great.
I finished and put on a video from a fellow Amel owner who did the same job. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB67b2hK-kA&t=657s
They do the job at 8.02 of the video. If you need more info let me know. Use the bar not the saw.
Cheers.

Randall
A54 #56
Gibraltar

On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 6:50 PM Sv Garulfo <svgarulfo@...> wrote:
Hi all,

In the great document by Gary Silver about the overhaul of the SM Mizzen furler gearbox (thanks Arno for sending us a low bandwidth friendly version), it is mentioned that the bottom part of the gearbox housing is drilled with 2 holes that are used to both unscrew that part (with great efforts) and drain the gearbox of liquids.

As our gearbox got stiffer recently, I removed it and it appears that those 2 holes are not through openings.. thus not acting as drains. And the gearbox was full of rainwater up to the attachment bolts. Arno tells me he saw the same.
So the teflon bushing got very dirty and stiff with all sorts of deposits.

Does anybody know why the drains are no longer machined through? Is it an A54 “innovation”?
It doesn’t really make sense and I’m thinking of drilling those holes all the way through to reinstate the drain. Any word of advice against that idea?

Thanks for your input

Best,

Thomas
GARULFO
A54-122
Tahuata, French Polynesia

Re: Self Insurance

Robert Giroux

#52292

Unfortunately, the more you dig into something like this, the less obvious are all the ramifications. Experience, beyond total novice is of limited value in assessing risk; age, accident history, net worth, are far more important. There are very experienced sailors who willingly sail into ANY weather and some who leave their boats at a dock in the path of a hurricane when they could have sailed to safety. Most captive insurance plans are created by companies for their own purposes, managed by their own management structure. As much as I like the idea behind it, It's hard to imaging something like this as a co-op, run democratically.

Robert Giroux
Future Amel Owner

Re: Self Insurance

Patrick McAneny

#52291

Dave ,Ken,

A lot of good points,but I think if we have too many restrictions,it would become too complicated. It would take someone's time and ability to assess a owners qualifications to join into the group .I am afraid if we make this too complicated ,it won't get off the ground. I also don't think the very fact that you have had a claim in the past ,indicates that you are a higher risk . I too have never had a car accident claim nor even a health ,or home insurance claim. I have not had a ticket in 30 yrs. Yet my boat electronics was damaged by a nearby lightning strike while on my mooring in front of our house . Lightning is random, can hit any boat, and has no bearing on my seamanship. I had another claim, while anchored in Guadeloupe , three charter cats anchored about 75 yards in front of me . Overnight at 4 am with 30 kt. gusts a 47 ft. cat from Dream Yacht Charters drug anchor and hit us , we were asleep . We ourselves were so well anchored that we held boat boats for almost an hour before they broke our anchor out. My insurance Pantaenius told me to make a claim with them and they would seek reimbursement from DYCharter. So I have had two claims ,and may not qualify for membership ,but I submit that I bear no responsibility for these claim and that they do not reflect on my 50 plus years of operating boats.

We actually are a low risk ,as we live in Maryland on the Sassafras River ,a hurricane hole and only cruise every other year ,then for just six months. I know we would be sharing risk with full time cruisers ,cruising in unfamiliar waters and at higher risks. But I would be willing to accept their risk as I think the number of Amels that are a total lose is quit low and the risk would be shared by many.

I would like to know how many boats have been a total lose outside of hurricane zones ,say in the last ten years. If it was say five @ $250,000. ,if that lose was shared by 200 members ,that would amount to $6,250. per member over ten years, or $625.00 per year. If your initial one time deposit was a percentage of your declared boat value ,say 2.5% ,coupled with a deductible say 10% based on the fixed value ,that would balance the relative difference in boat values.

Once the group had a sizable reserve to cover a loss or two ,in the event of a loss perhaps an assessment would be made on each member to replenish the fund . I think that an owner assuming no claims would receive a 50% refund of his initial deposit ,make this attractive,after all it is about sharing the risk ,while saving money. I think if we keep it simple and find someone to administer it,and assuming there was enough members wishing to join ,this could work to everyone's benefit.

One would still need to obtain liability insurance. One could also obtain full coverage as now, and have a much lower fixed value ,which should lower the premiums. I am trying too obtain insurance now ,and insurance has been hard to find,with many exemptions and very high premiums. I think its going to get worst as there are fewer underwriters in the offshore business.

Stay Safe,

Pat

SM Shenanigans

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 3:34 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Though I think it would be a great idea to start the "Amel Group Insurance Company" AGIC, it's a lot more than just opening a bank account and filling it with our $6000 each month. Insurance companies are Bankers first, and Offer insurance second. Once you get the first $1.2M in the bank it has to be invested, and everyone will have different ideas of where to invest it. Well hedged is probably best, but these days I have been a very unsuccessful investor!

On the questionnaire - Ask about Auto, Motorcycle, Airplane Insurance - Any tickets past 10 years, and any claims? People are the same on the water as they are on land or in the air. Careful drivers on land and in the air, will be careful captains on the water.

I also think that the owners that will be insured by AGIC should be required to have three owners confirm that the owner is worthy of getting insurance through AGIC. The first 200 owners insured also need to be well vetted be part of the group. All you need is a few bad actors to bankrupt an insurance company. Everyone has different ideas of what the appropriate level of experience should be required to sail an Amel off shore. What would be the level of instruction/experience required for new owners, and who would be capable of imparting that knowledge and signing off for a new owner to be insured. Bill's class would be a good one, but should Bill alone be able to sign off for a new member? No one person should.

There's a lot of benefits we could gain by starting this venture. For one, it would make the AMEL brand more valuable if the insurance was transferrable to a new owner given a mandatory level of experience, no claims (any insurance), and an AMEL offshore sailing course. Just like a check ride by the FAA.

To do this right we need a village, and I think the AMEL Owners are the right village. If we start now, we could draft a document and get this started by the end of the year.

First get interest level. 200 boats would probably be a good start.
Draft a Document how the company would operate.
1. Investments
2. Personal requirements to be insured
3. What/Where will the insurance cover
4. How/who will manage the claims
5. Define a bad risk owner, and how will a bad risk owner be deleted from the insurance group.
6. Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance. Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
7. Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas. Just moving with traffic. Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.

So the first think would be to find out who is interested in the insurance, and each should answer the following questions. If there is interest we need to get everyone into a spreadsheet and when we get to 200 people we can move forward to the next step.
HERE IS MINE
1. Current Insurance Company: JACKLINE POLICY
2. Cost yearly: $5700
3. Coverage amount: $280K
4. Coverage location: Worldwide except weather zones
5. 3rd party Liability: $1M
6. Solo Sailor: ?
7. Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance. Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
8. Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas. Just moving with traffic. Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.
9. ?? Any other questions we need to ask to get the first 220 or more first responders? Some people will not meet the standards of the majority, so we will need to get more than the number required for critical mass. Even I may not meet the standards of some.

Done rambling....

Ken Powers
Aquarius SM2K #262
Currently in Phuket Thailand