locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Scott SV Tengah

Mark,

I looked at his first post and a few things he stated that is not consistent with the known characteristics of lithium:

1) Take a look at the voltage vs. SOC graph for a Lifepo4 battery.
https://www.powerstream.com/lithium-phosphate-charge-voltage.htm

At 3.2v per cell or (3.2*8 = 25.8v) you are at around 3-8% state of charge.
At 3.3v per cell or (3.3*8 = 26.4v) you are at around 20-31% state of charge.
At 3.4v per cell or (3.4*8= 27.2v) you are at around 96-99% SOC.

But it's not just the spread, it's the shape of the curve. The challenge is that the lithium curve, unlike lead, is NOT linear. The middle portion between say 10% and 90% has a very flat voltage curve.  See link above. I can attest that with my Mastervolt 110A charger set to 27.5v absorption, the alternator has stopped charging anywhere between 75-100%, averaging 85%.

If you set your charger to stop charging at 26.8v, you may be charging your batteries to only 40-50%.

And as you can see with lead, the voltage vs. SOC curve is quite linear, making it far more useful to determine SOC from voltage.

2) He stops charging at 3.45v per cell and has a high voltage alarm at 3.5v. His high voltage ALARM is below Victron's absorption voltage of 3.55v and below Mastervolt's absorption voltage of 3.6v. Keeping voltage low like that will help avoid high SOC induced imbalances but there are other sources of imbalance too, namely high load or imperfectly assembled batteries. And most cell balancing systems require you to charge to near full before they start balancing, as indicated by low charge current acceptance rate - namely because of the non-linear charge curve. I have had batteries that show perfect balance until you approach 3.5v+ and then one cell goes wildly out of balance.

By not charging your batteries fully every once in a while, you may end up prolonging a cell imbalance issue that, in the event that you need to draw the batteries quite deeply (big storm, can't run the genset because of sea state), could result in a cell LOW voltage problem that will destroy the battery or cause your BMS to disconnect your loads at the worst time. Further, most battery monitors determine state of charge based on calibrating to 100%. And 100% on my battery monitor is determined when charge current is below X for time period Y. That means the battery is full and no longer accepting charge. As such, Victron explicitly recommends charging fully once a month to recalibrate the SOC monitor.

--
Scott
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Mark McGovern

Arno,

Voltage may not be as bad an indicator of SOC of LiFePO4 batteries as you might think.  Here's a quote from the owner of MV Tanglewood who has had his LiFePO4 bank in operation for about ~18 months now:

First, counter to what everyone says, I think battery bank voltage is a sufficiently close indicator of SOG.  People say it's a much worse indicator for LFP vs Lead, but I disagree.  My lead bank was 50.4 volts when fully charged, and 48.0V when is was 50% empty and the generator started.  That's a spread of 2.4 volts.  In contrast, my LPF bank is full at 53.6V, and ready for recharge at 50.4V.  That's a 3.2V spread and is 30% more voltage swing than lead.  The difference, though, is that in the mid area of charge, the LFP voltage doesn't vary much, so there isn't as much differentiation between 60% and 50%.

Granted, this 3.2v spread is for his nominal 48v system but even with our nominal 24v system it would be a 1.6v spread which is a significant enough spread to monitor and act on.  I am literally in the middle of installing my LiFePO4 system and I am not yet living full time on the boat so I don't have a ton of personal experience with it just yet.  However, the experience that I do have so far lines up with Tanglewood's experience.  I think that if you operated an LiFePO4 system simplistically such that it is assumed to be "full" at 26.8V (stop charging) and then "empty" at 25.2v (start charging), the battery bank would be quite happy and would give you many years of service.

Here is the full blog post:  http://www.mvtanglewood.com/search/label/Lithium%20Batteries

Be sure to read his other LiFePO4 related posts.  They are full of great information.

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA

locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222

He jose
For the capcity you take Vicron the deal 12 v 200 ah for the normal sice
Ore loog by green accu
The you get 24 V 200 ah
Best Elja

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Scott SV Tengah

Arno,

I actually think if you're on shore power most of the time, lithium is a bad idea. At best, it's a waste of money that adds additional complication.

I do agree with your lack of confidence in the warranty. Unless you are using batteries and chargers from one brand, I am almost certain the battery manufacturer will point fingers at the charger and you will left paying for a new battery bank yourself.

For me, the big pluses are the charge/discharge curve as you mentioned, the lack of need to keep it full, the ability to run virtually all 220v appliances on battery and one thing that people don't often think about is that it could effectively double your solar output. The charge acceptance rate and near nonexistent charging efficiency issues means that, for the same solar array, you will get almost twice as many AH per day into your batteries compared to lead. I believe it is Porter who is in the tropics and has a similar solar array and the same MPPT as we do, but we are able to put nearly twice as much cumulative power into the batteries as he is. Our only difference is AGM vs. lithium.

--
Scott
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Scott SV Tengah

Sounds about right with Mastervolt. I haven't studied their system in detail but from what I've seen, they're the most hands off, from the user perspective, that I've seen. But you pay for it!

I have the Mastervolt alternator and Alpha pro II (3 is even better) and it took me over a year and the help of an engineer who used to break into car ECUs to reprogram them. It turned out to be quite simple, but neither Victron nor dealers understood the problem or could provide the solution.

I describe how I do it here:
https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/message/50689

One final alternator tip: I did not use the standard lithium profile on the mastervolt charge controller. This is because I did not want to keep the lithium batteries fully charged when motoring for a long time as this is not good for the batteries. I set the absorption voltage for 27.5v and the "float" at 26.5v. As mentioned before, voltage is NOT a good indicator of SOC, but I've seen over the last two years that this seems to result in charging stopping at around 85% on my system.  You'll need a Mastervolt USB interface to program your charge controller.

https://www.mastervolt.com/products/masterbus-interfaces/masterbus-usb-interface/

--
Scott
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Re: Scuba compressor recommendations

Scott SV Tengah

I do something similar but it's just a Ryobi portable fan that I direct at the compressor when I'm filling tanks. Bauer techs told me that it will extend the life of the compressor and the filters. Your blower fan will certainly work better.

One other idea is to take a long hose and bring fresh air into the intake. This is something gasoline powered compressors have to do but we do it also because our cockpit locker also stores chemicals that I prefer not to breathe underwater (or above water, for that matter!).

--
Scott
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Jose Venegas

I was searching over internet for marine Lithium Batteries and found the “Ionic” brand that sells a 12V 125 Ah with the same size of the BattleBorn 12 100 Ah battery.
Ionic only give 5 years warranty vs BB 10 years, but they will provide 25% more capacity for our boats and each battery can be monitored independently with a smart phone via blue tooth communication.
I am inclined to go BB but wonder if any one has heard good or bad things of the “ionic”

Jose Venegas
IPANEMA SM2K 278
Curaçao

Outhaul gear pulled in Annapolis

Karen Smith

Hi!  Bill Kinney & I have been doing some work with new owners of an Amel 54. The outhaul is really stuck. Is there anyone in the group near Annapolis with a pulled for the outhaul that we could borrow? It would be greatly appreciated! If you are in the area we will be at Bert Jabins Yacht Yard please stop by and say hi!

Karen Smith
s/v Harmonie
SM #160

Re: Gearbox ratio

Mark McGovern

Mark,

My SM is a 2004 with a Yanmar 4JH3-HTE engine.  It does have a Hurth ZF25 gearbox.  However, it may not be the same gearbox on your SM with a Perkins M80T.

In any case the ratios on my gearbox are as follows:

Ratio 1:  A = 2.80 B = 2.80

I'm not sure what you are going to use the ratio information for, but the only way to be 100% certain what is on your boat is to look at the plate that is on the gearbox in your engine room.   Maybe you can get someone to go on your boat and take a picture for you.  Here is the plate on my gearbox:

I find that Google Photos is a great way to store information like this "for posterity" so that you can find and access the information even when you are not on your boat.  That's what I just used to grab the photo above.  I took that pic over a year ago for no real particular reason but to document what I had while I was replacing the Vetus coupler.

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA

Re: A54 hawsehole and chain guide

Teun BAAS

Morning Thomas,

Thanks for the reply – all clear.

Best Regards Teun

A54 2009 #128

September 11, 2020 08:56:48

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sv Garulfo via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 11:36
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 hawsehole and chain guide

Hi Teun,

No, it’s only when we let out the full chain for whatever reason. So it’s very rare and only to minimise the chance of bungling it during business as usual. (That rarely happens anyway, even with galvanised chain).

Hope that clarifies the use case.

Thomas

GARULFO

A54-122

Bora-Bora

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 03:48, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:

Thomas,

Does this mean that every time you weigh anchor that somebody is guiding this device by hand in the right direction to evenly spread the anchor chain?

If so then I clearly have too many sails in the sail locker as it is completely full and was really a massive, massive head ache to get to the chain locker when the new (galvanized) chain bungled up. I never had the bungling up issue with the OEM SS chain and since I pushed a bunch of the galvanized chain all the way to the back it hasn’t happened since. It is rare, even in the South Pacific, that I use the last 30 meters of a 100 meter chain so pushing those 30 plus meters all the way back in the chain locker I believe prevents the bundle of chain getting too high in the front and thus getting tangled/bungled.

But your device looks what I need but then I also need: A) easily access to the chain locker as well as B) a pair of hands during departure.

Best Regards Teun

A 54 2009  #128

September 8, 2020 06:46:43

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sv Garulfo via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 6, 2020 15:07
To: Amel Yacht owners Group <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 hawsehole and chain guide

Hi all,

We recently end-to-ended our anchor chain and I found the pictured device useful to guide the chain nice and flat at the bottom of the chain locker.

It’s simply a piece of PVC pipe with a couple of small line to gutter the chain in various corners of the locker.

And when you don’t use it, it snaps happily on the hawsehole pipe for efficient storage.

Best,

Thomas

GARULFO

A54-122

Bora-Bora

Re: Scuba compressor recommendations

Arlo

thanks for the details. Why did they put it on a track?

Re: Scuba compressor recommendations

Arlo

thanks Scott! Great tip...I plan to install a blower fan as well on it to help keep it cool...

Re: Scuba compressor recommendations

Arlo

Thank you! all good to know. anything I should be aware of to check if I buy a used system?

Ankerwinde Amel euros

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222

﻿

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht:

Von: bijorka <bijorka@...>
Datum: 11. September 2020 um 14:22:44 MESZ
An: bijorka@...
Betreff: Ankerwinde Amel euros

﻿ He Valentin ,
On may old Euros i have an
Quik 800 W instalt .

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Arno Luijten

Hi Sheriffdep,

Drop in replacement have build in BMS-es that is correct. The quality of those can be from excellent to abysmal and you have very little clues to determine this from the outside.
I do think that assembling your own battery pack is currently the best way forward if you have technical skills. It's cheaper and you determine for yourself which BMS system gives you the best facilities for your usage case.
It also enables you to make better use of available space. An example of company that facilitates this route is https://shop.gwl.eu/index.php?force_sid=nc4jtsqa8h85c6d1m7j3t8ncnj& (I have no relation with them and never bought anything there)

Your assumption about 15-30 year investment is highly optimistic at best. Personally I would assume a lifespan of 8 years simply as a result of lack of evidence that these things last longer. Your best bet is looking at the way Tesla's from 2013 are behaving and those use different chemistries (Li-Ion instead of LiFePO)
As said before, my main beef with this stuff is that to get the best life expectancy from these things you need to treat them carefully, meaning not fully empty or fully charged for extended periods and keeping them balanced. Most systems can only balance them at 100% SOC. This means you will need to think of the SOC of your batteries in relation to your cruising plans and modify the configuration accordingly. The latter is can be quite the hassle as you need to "tell" all your charging sources to keep a certain maximum float-voltage (more accurately maximum SOC). Alternatively you can also make them stop charging, but that means you will be short-cycling the batteries needlessly because of the never ending consumption by systems on the boat. The effects of this are unknown to me and I cannot find clear information about it. It also means your battery bank is not "set and forget" as many supplies claim is some form or shape.

My point is that it is not so hard to put a well working system together but designing one that minimizes stress on the battery system and maximizes longevity is quite the challenge. It is also depending on your use-case provided you can predict that for the coming 8-15 years (I can't). The Battle Born batteries give you very little to control the SOC and don't provide you with information on what's going on inside the black box. Their 10-year warranty doesn't mean much to me. Who knows if the company is still around in 10 years and what they will tell you then.

So in the end, I think there are some good reasons to switch to Lithium but life-span discussions in relation to total cost of ownership and comparing them to alternatives are risky at best. My thought is that the charge/discharge curve of lithium and the lack of need to charge them to 100% every time are the VERY big plus arguments. All other points are secondary and maybe even debatable.

Cheers,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121

locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222

He Scott , first many thanks for your detaild awnser .

i have been advised at Victron and Mastervolt for 800 Ah 12Volt  in row 400 AH 24 V
Mastervolt estimates the cost incl assembly to approx € 40000.00
with 2 combi inverters
3000/100 .
von Victron habe ich ein Angebot für alle Componenten
incl 1 st combi inverter
5000/135
Victron has only one external BMS for all batteries but offers
to connect before the BMB as an additional protection before overload the battery protection
components for land current/generator solar load and load through the light machine to double protection.

sowiso would have a reserve BMS with the 102 € are not important .

I find an Altinator Mastervolt Alpha
With the regulator Alpha III

Is it possible for this altinator to stop charging the butteries when the engine i running ? Withaut damage the altinator ?

Thanks Elja
Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Gearbox ratio

Mark Barter

Edited

I have been asked for the gearbox ratio of the gearbox and I am away from the boat.

The boat is a 1993 Super Maramu hull number 110. It is a Hurth gearbox.

The engine is a Perkins M80T

Many thanks
--
Mark & Nicky Barter
S/V Nunky
SM 110

Re: Scuba compressor recommendations

Stefan Jeukendrup

Hi Arlo,

Bauer PE100 on Onan MDKAL 50Hz 220V

Best regards,

Stefan Jeukendrup
sv Malaka Queen
SM2k  #348 @Turkey

Re: Scuba compressor recommendations

Alexandre Uster von Baar

On Thursday, September 10, 2020, 11:18:47 AM CDT, Arlo <svplanb@...> wrote:

hello all, I plan to install a SCUBA compressor to fill the tanks and it will run using my 5.5 kw genset. Looking for recommendations on makes and model from those that have them onboard.

locked Re: Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

Scott SV Tengah

Some of my thoughts, original in regular font and my response in italics

Sheriffdep

As a thought - I also am considering if purchasing the SM2k doing a separate 12v bank purely for electronic usage and anything 12v. The Beneteau 57 has a 280amp hr bank for that and separated the 24v bank. Haven't done the calculations for that completely but would dedicate 1x solar panel for keeping that topped off (engine alternator when running also) and be able to charge cameras, flashlights, and run the depth and wind MFd's all day everyday without draining any of the main battery bank. Might be a bit over the top, but it would help. Options for extending the banks could be to put 2x extra 24v bank batteries in the aft clothes locker beside the bank or put them beside the nav station on the floor. Putting that extra pair should be fine as long as all the wires running to the unswitched distribution block from all the pairs are of equal length. That way they will all charge and discharge the same.

I wouldn't bother with a separate 12v bank. It adds complication without additional benefit. You are at anchor 80-90% of the time anyways, so your bank is really about running house appliances. I don't know anyone who has said that the 24-12v converter can't handle their 12v needs. Further, if the SM2k is anything like the A54, you won't need to add extra space for batteries. I have 450AH @24v and use part of the battery bank area to store unused blankets. Keep in mind we went from 12 gel batteries to six Victron Smart Lithium 150AH@12v. I could have easily added more.

Solar panels - I also noticed MOST people, lets say having 3x panels, have one MPPT to charge the bank. That one MPPT is the same cost as what 3x MPPT's would be for each panel due to inputed power levels. So if you had 3x MPPTs you would have complete redundancy if one went bad. Same cost.

Please explain what you mean by 3x would cost the same as one due to inputed power? Are you saying that you gain so much cumulative AH due to more shade tolerance that it's worth it to pay for 3 MPPTs?

If we all could run the AC unit or units off the bank I am sure we would. However take a look at the Gone with the Wynns website and on there they have a video explain a "soft start" modual that attaches to the ac unit and will drastically lower the amp hrs used and keep the kick start amp hrs way down. It manipulates the start up sequence to prevent the spike. This possibly if utilized would allow more usage of the AC's in a hot climate. I will be installing at least 1 if not for all three units.

I thought a soft start only impacted the current drawn at compressor startup? How does it impact current draw once the AC is running? We can easily start and run our AC units on our 5kw Victron inverter and unless Climma includes a soft start module, we don't have one.

Either custom setup or OEM drop ins with the available space I do want to maximize the amp hrs usable. I will be a heavy user for sure and don't want to run the gen.

A very large bank will not eliminate your genset usage. If you don't match it with sufficient renewables (solar, wind), then a huge bank simply prolongs the interval between when you have to run the genset. The energy has to come from somewhere. We use about 225AH per day more or less. Our 960w array has been providing that and more, so we usually don't run the genset except to keep it functioning or while on passage. Note we rarely run AC, but we run the dishwasher at least daily, water maker every few days, scuba compressor now and then, washing machine twice a week, ice maker, Tv, etc. For our uses, 450ah is just perfect as it allows me to keep the batteries in a SOC range where they're happy.

Elja

i ask Victron for his batteries a BMS for all batteries
There is my concern if this fails and it is not noticed all batteries damaged if each battery has a BMS is only one damaged.

You are right that it's a good idea to think about how you are going to fix things when they fail far from a dealer. I went through this thought exericise with our Victron setup. There is only one BMS, but if the BMS fails or there is a problem with the BMS circuit, charging and load are disconnected. I guess you can call that "fail safe" but the net effect is that all the batteries are protected. IMO, it's important to think about how you go forward if you're in the Tuamotus and that happens. If you have a backup, great. But for us, the batteries, should they not be damaged, will still work. If one of the 6 batteries are damaged, I take it and its pair out of the bank and move on. In the absence of a functioning BMS, my emergency plan is to bypass the BMS and monitor things manually (via bluetooth) until I can get a new BMS sent to me.

For anyone considering any lithium system, you really should understand how the BMS works for your particular setup. If, for example, with a high cell voltage condition, it simply cuts off the batteries from the charging circuit suddenly, some chargers and I believe most alternators would be damaged. My system isn't perfect - for low cell voltage, for example, I don't like Victron's "cut off all loads" solution. What if I'm in the middle of a storm? I certainly don't want to lose autopilot and navigation.

I would not trust your supplier or your manufacturer to think through the unique situations we put ourselves in as far-off-the-grid cruisers. I have worked with both Victron high level techs and also a very well regarded dealer and they both gave me bad advice.

Paul
For the one who use drop in, make sure they not only rated to run your bowthruster but also capable in real life, in some drop in the internat cables and BMS are not for high loads. can recommend Will Prowse on youtube very illustrative and easy to follow, he have teared a few drop in batteris apart and had a look what was inside, some of them you do not want to have onboard.

Agree with you there. I can tell you that the Victron Smart 150ah, run in serial pairs to get 24v and parallel to get to 450ah will easily run our Sleipner bow thruster with both the engine and chargers OFF. I spent a lot of time diagnosing a problem with our BT and did it all on battery. The draw is around 8000w I believe and we never saw less than 24.4v Our batteries supposedly can handle 2C continuous, so that means I should be able to draw 900amps continuously. Make sure your batteries can handle the rated draw, before you're away from the dock.

Victron sources Chinese cells but quality checks them and assembles them in a way that I trust. When they say the battery will deliver 2C, I believe it. I am sure if you are a capable engineer, you can do what Victron did for much less money, but I don't have that skill nor time, so I sadly just paid up!

I would caution against trusting that a drop in solution will work over the long term. Lithium is so different than lead acid in terms of charging profile, power delivery profile, how you keep them happy, the systems in place to keep them from failing, etc. Keep in mind that with one under voltage or over voltage event, you can kill a cell and therefore a battery, completely. While I am not overly concerned that Lifepo4 will explode like you cell phone battery and sink your boat, a battery system failure at the wrong time could have nearly the same effect if it's in the wrong place.

Arno

This is my biggest problem with Battle Born batteries. You cannot have sensible interfacing with other systems.
Lithium batteries like to be kept between 20 and 75% state of charge if you have extended charging facilities (i.e. shore power) . The voltage alone makes it very hard to determine the state of charge when a system is at use. Basically you need a Coulomb counter to see the SOC at any point in time. Ideally your BMS should provide you with this information and adjust the float voltage of any charging device in such way it can maintain a desired SOC after bulk charging. Given the different sources of charge you can have on a boat this is not so simple.

I believe Mastervolt makes staying within a SOC range quite easy, but MV is even more \$\$\$ than Victron. On our system, the coulomb counter you speak of is our BMV-712 battery monitor. You do need to calibrate it monthly by charging to 100%, but otherwise it has a programmable relay that you can use to send a signal when battery SOC hits x and send another signal when SOC hits Y. You could easily use that relay output to tell your chargers to stop charging when SOC is at Y and to start charging again when SOC drops to X. All of the charging sources on my boat (solar, alternator, Quattro, Skylla) can be controlled by this.

One last thing I would caution for anyone trying to figure out their own battery protection systems or even those using Victron is that you need to ensure that when the BMS sends a "stop charging" signal, the alternator actually stops charging and does so in a safe manner. It took me over a year to figure out how to get the Victron BMS to talk to our Mastervolt alternator charge controller in case the BMS senses a cell over-voltage condition.

This is not something that is unlikely. In the last two years, I can recall at least 10 times when, approaching high SOC, we had an imbalance and one of the cells (out of 24 in our system) hit 3.8v and the BMS told the alternator to stop charging and the alternator stopped in a safe way to avoid damaging it. Aside: The BMS will balance the cells, but can't do it instantaneously and cannot do it with too high of charging current. If your alternator simply looked at the battery voltage or the bank voltage or the SOC, it wouldn't have seen the CELL overvoltage condition that battery would have been destroyed. The BMS must talk to the alternator.

Oh and make sure that the alternator has a temperature sensor and can taper output when it overheats because the max output duration placed on it by lithium is likely far longer than it ever saw with lead/agm/gel.

As a cautionary tale, I know of a former Amel owner who installed 1200AH (!!!!) of Victron lithium and they died within 2 years. He was quite wealthy, so I presume he paid someone a hefty sum and figured it would be done right. As with anything in a cruising boat, when something fails, the installer often shrugs his shoulders and the skipper deals with the consequences in the most inconvenient place and time. Even more so with a "newer" technology like lithium.

--
Scott
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

 4401 - 4420 of 58578